Caroline Spence has released 5 records independently and via Rounder Records, has written and/or recorded with Emmylou Harris, Lori McKenna, Matt Berninger (The National), and Sarah Jarosz, and toured with Mary Chapin Carpenter, John Moreland, Tyler Childers, and American Aquarium. We talk to Caroline about being in relationship with your creativity, awareness of, and moving beyond defining yourself externally or through your creative output, losing respect for the music industry, accepting that your wants and goals change over time, and a whole lot more.
Caroline Spence has released 5 records independently and via Rounder Records, has written and/or recorded with Emmylou Harris, Lori McKenna, Matt Berninger (The National), and Sarah Jarosz, and toured with Mary Chapin Carpenter, John Moreland, Tyler Childers, and American Aquarium. We talk to Caroline about being in relationship with your creativity, awareness of, and moving beyond defining yourself externally or through your creative output, losing respect for the music industry, accepting that your wants and goals change over time, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are nearing the end of our second year. 85th episode, which feels crazy because there's so many people that we are excited to talk about and planning to keep this going.
So thank you for being here and listening.
[00:00:28] Aaron: in the line of keeping this thing going it takes a lot of resources to make even a tiny show like ours And so with that we have three asks two different types of subscribe and one share So the first subscribe is just to subscribe or follow on your listening platform of choice I used to hate it when people on YouTube would say that it became a joke, but it really does help it is a number that just lets people that are scrolling by know that like hey Maybe this is worth 45 minutes of your time whether you're on Spotify or Apple or watching us on YouTube, please just take a second, hit subscribe.
It goes a long way for us. our next favorite way is share. And chances are you heard about our show of the award of mouth. So if you have a favorite episode, be it this one or one of the 84 others, just take a second to share that episode in the same way you heard about it.
And lastly, if you want to directly support the production of this show we have a Patreon and we do a lot of the normal Patreon stuff. Plus, it's growing and evolving as we all are. And so if you're interested in that, there's a link below in the show notes.
[00:01:26] Michaela: one of the things we really pride ourselves on with this podcast is that we aren't music journalists. So we are musicians ourselves. So we think of these more as conversations rather than interviews that we think can get to a more vulnerable, comfortable place. It's like, we are just sitting around our dinner table sharing some of the honest realities of what it is to build a lifelong career around your art,
[00:01:49] Aaron: which is a crazy and difficult thing to do.
And that's because most of the things in this industry are outside of our control. so to combat that, we kind of like to focus the show on what is within our control. And that ends up being our mindsets and headspace and our relationship to our creativity. And we've boiled that down to the kind of mission statement underlying question.
What do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity? And today we have our first repeat guest asterisks next to that in our friend Caroline Spence.
[00:02:19] Michaela: Caroline Spence is a critically acclaimed singer and songwriter by all the major outlets, She has toured with people like Mary Chapin Carpenter, John Morland, Tyler Childers, American Aquarium. She's written and or recorded with Jarosz, Laurie McKenna, Emmylou Harris, Matt Berenger from The National, her. Resume and accomplishments are quite impressive. She's also a very close friend of ours full disclosure, and she was previously on a group format episode with us, but today we had her on to talk about her individual journey.
the conversation kind of starts out with me already in some ways introducing it. So we're just going to jump right in without further ado. Here is our conversation with Caroline Spence.
Hi, Caroline. How are you feeling today?
[00:03:12] Caroline: I'm feeling fine.
[00:03:14] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:03:15] Caroline: things aside.
[00:03:16] Aaron: Yeah. You are, I think, technically our first repeat guest on this show. Welcome.
[00:03:22] Michaela: For a little time listener. Second time caller. Love it?
For our listeners, Caroline was on our episode that we called the group text, which was myself as a guest with Caroline Spence, Kelsey Walden and Aaron Ray, because we have a text thread that's been going on for, oh my God, six years.
At least
[00:03:45] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:03:45] Michaela: yeah, five or six years
[00:03:47] Aaron: so many gigs of data
[00:03:48] Michaela: so many gigs of data So many voice messages like 10 minute voice messages back and forth
[00:03:56] Aaron: you guys basically have like a four person private podcast happening
[00:04:00] Michaela: But that episode was about, which I recommend everyone go listen to, if you haven't, was about how we support each other in community as friends who are all doing similar things in the same industry. But we're having Caroline on today to talk about her experience. individual journey as an artist and, navigating the business of music and how that's impacted her creativity and what she's done to really work to stay connected to herself and her creativity and her true love of songwriting.
So we will just share the elephant in the room of this week is election week.
So we
just got the news of the election and it's on everybody's mind, obviously. So I feel like we can mention that as just our framework and then dig into your singular life, Caroline.
[00:04:51] Caroline: Great. That's why I answered when you asked me how I was. That's why I was so weird.
[00:04:54] Michaela: Yes.
[00:04:55] Caroline: That hard to reach.
[00:04:56] Aaron: there's a weird dichotomy happening because what's two days post election, really 24 hours post, like we got the results and this show will be airing the day before Thanksgiving. So the state that we're in now versus the state that this will be airing in is Kind of like a weird mental time machine which Mikaela had to do in 2016, but literally the morning after the election she had a conversation with Ari Shapiro on All Things Considered about gratitude and music
and all that and she's
like
[00:05:28] Michaela: And Ari Shapiro was up all night covering the election, and I was like in tears, and he was like, I know, but this is airing on Thanksgiving.
So we are trying to uplift people. That's not what we're
doing right here.
[00:05:42] Aaron: Yeah,
sorry if you're listening, no uplifting allowed.
[00:05:45] Michaela: Don't, Don't try to uplift people, Caroline.
[00:05:49] Caroline: Don't worry, I won't. But I hope to have better access to my gratitude by the time this airs. That would be goal.
[00:05:57] Michaela: So one of the reasons we wanted to have you on your own and that you and I have talked about is because you're starting to release music on your own again, meaning independently. And we wanted to talk to you about your journey of Navigating the last several years of getting a record deal, what that felt like when we all think that's like the quintessential goal and what the reality of that was.
so maybe let's start with where you're at right now with feel about the practices you've created recently to be in touch with your creativity.
[00:06:31] Caroline: Where I'm at right now with my creativity feels more secondary to my like, identity than it was all of that was happening. I think for a really long time, it was the main way I defined and valued myself. And now I'm sort of, it's something that. adds deeply to my life, but it's not the only place where I exist.
I think I used to just feel like when I was making things, that was purest self. And as my life has expanded and my relationships have expanded, I find myself all over my life, which is really wonderful, but it has changed my relationship to what it means to be creative. What my music does for me I obviously value it and it adds so much to my life, but it's not. everything to me anymore, which feels like a betrayal in a way this career I've built. and it doesn't mean I don't want all these things and want to have a career. It just means that have a deeper understanding of what it is when applied to a more healthy version of me, I guess.
[00:07:44] Aaron: I can definitely relate to that kind of feeling of like betrayal or like unease when your interests and attention and priorities start to expand and diversify. at least for me, it's like I'm pretty purposeful to use like the term, my relationship with my creativity because that does separate it from myself.
And I really do feel like it is a relationship, when I was a kid, like my best friends and I like hung out with them and nobody else mattered and it was like two people, or one person sometimes and we'd spent all the time together nothing else mattered really.
Then as I get older, I have like way more friendships, way more rich relationships. And I feel more in line with myself now than I was then. Not saying that was bad, but it's just, a growth and an evolution like that. And I feel the same way with my creativity, where I used to hold it so precious and that's all that mattered.
And I was like, the only friendship I needed. And now there's, more things grabbing for my time. it's so much easier
[00:08:35] Michaela: see. Mm
[00:08:36] Caroline: For external things like, I totally remember that feeling of this is my best friend and whatever. Yeah, you're like trying to define yourself through the examples of others. And I think if you don't have the opportunity to.
Do the opposite of that. It can be dangerous. when you go into this line of work, because then it's all external and you lose the self a little bit.
[00:08:59] Michaela: what you said was, That's when you were in the act of creating, that's when you felt like your purest self showed up, that that's where you met your purest self, but now as your life has expanded and grown you, meet yourself in all these other places as well. And I think that's a really beautiful way to look at it, but then it also makes me think about, as we get older and then try and build careers on this creativity, on this experience, that is where we feel we are our purest self, but it doesn't stay there because then those things that we create, we offer to the world.
And then that response and what happens next Inevitably influences how we feel about ourselves. even when we're in that moment of creativity, can you talk about that a little bit of like how your experience of, being someone who grew up loving to write and then coming into this adult world and Grappling with what it feels like, the reception, and when that pure art turns into a product, and you turn into a product, and what that,
what that has felt like for you, and how you've thought about it over the years.
[00:10:11] Caroline: Yeah. I think I held on to that purity, that idea a really long time in the context of the music business. I think because My relationship to songwriting really is this sort of Spiritual self connecting thing for me and has been since I was what, like 14 years old, it was like my safe place to have my feelings.
I really held it in this pure high regard I mean, I still hold it there, but I, it wasn't affected by the industry until a few years ago when I'd finished a record. And had received a lot of positive feedback from the label. Everyone was saying like, this is your best work, whatever, yada, yada.
And I felt great about it too. I was like, I really feel like this is the best thing I could have done. And then to have a few months go by, and there was a moment where things changed up at the label, and basically I was like on the hook, potentially about to be dropped this record held by them for forever, And the reason for it had nothing to do the quality of the work.
[00:11:22] Michaela: Mm
[00:11:23] Caroline: social media and numbers and
[00:11:26] Michaela: hmm.
[00:11:26] Caroline: guy in the marketing department's opinion.
there's this quote I like from the artist way that says the artist.
Has to be humble because we're essentially a channel. And so I felt like I'd done my job. I humbled myself. I've looked at the world. I've made these songs and they were good and everyone was telling me they were good, but it wasn't good enough. And so my whole career, I had just built on this idea of enhancing that relationship with myself, that like pure spiritual relationship in order for the songs to get better.
And for me to grow as an artist. And to get better, get better at what my craft was and I felt like I'd done it I'd done it objectively and it just wasn't good enough. And that is what sort of broke my little spirit and made me realize I'd been defining myself too much or like my idea of my creativity and my career. We're too tied up
[00:12:18] Michaela: Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:12:23] Caroline: sort of
The beginning of the end of my respect for the music industry. Um, I think the beginning of me building respect for myself outside of it is that I did creatively and in the industry. It was totally crushing to be like, I did the work that matters to me it felt completely irrelevant to the job.
[00:12:55] Michaela: When I think like what a lot of conversations and what we've seen over the last several years with social media is some of us rather naively probably think we're the creators. And then you guys, the label, you guys pay for it, and you think that is the most important thing, that you have the money, because that means also you think you should own it forever, and the creation has actually, no, wait so we think, okay, we did our job, but now more than ever, they're like, oh, what matters even more than the art is all this other stuff that I think a lot of artists are like, wait, aren't you supposed to do that? Aren't you supposed to do the marketing and the packaging and the selling and more and more the business is well, no, , you have to do everything. And that gets wrapped up in our ability to market and TikTok and be a social influencer gets confused and intertwined with our ability to create quality art. And I feel like that's like a constant thing that comes up for artists. today it's impossible to quantify like how good my song is so we're just looking at these things like tech numbers
it's like the sole work of being like, that doesn't inform who I am,
[00:14:05] Caroline: yeah, literally the only thing that is gonna make me able to sleep at night is if I No, that the work I've made is good in the way that like we define it as artists,
[00:14:16] Michaela: Mm
[00:14:16] Caroline: talk about being about like what we can control versus what we can't control. And I do think that experience that I just talked about, I could control the record.
I made
[00:14:25] Michaela: hmm. Yeah.
[00:14:27] Caroline: and I know that, but I can't control the way the marketing guy feels about me as a product.
[00:14:32] Michaela: Mm
hmm.
[00:14:34] Caroline: what do I really value around my art? trying to build this wall of like, okay, well, those are the opinions that I'm really going to take to heart.
It's not that I don't want to be a successful product, but I'm not going to go around feeling like a shitty product when I wrote a great song. You know what I mean? worthwhile and worthwhile. what context is a big lesson. Like, I feel like I over crafted a little bit and was like, didn't want to hear from anybody for a while, but I had to do that to kind of build myself back up, but yeah, I'm much more happy with the stuff I can't control, which is the making of the art.
else really has to be secondary for me to be able to even get to the place where I want to write at all.
[00:15:16] Aaron: the thing that rings in my head through all of this and, through conversations I've had with both of you guys, not in front of microphones and other people I know that either are currently in label deals or have had label deals in the past, I see that these labels are.
trying to exist without having to take the responsibilities that are required of their job. And that's the risk of marketing and putting up the product out there. You know what I mean? It's like the factories that Nike and Apple hire to make their products are not responsible for selling the products.
They're responsible for making the product as well as they possibly can. there's a whole other team that sells it. And it's this like dereliction of duty on the labels part to do what they want. I see,
my hope and want for this podcast is that translates past.
Yes, we're talking to musicians about creativity because that's what we know. And that's like what we can relate on, but we hear from like radiologists and obstetricians and like all of these people that listen to this show and can relate. In their industry, and that's because creativity is inherently part of everything that we do as a job, there has to be some kind of creativity and approach to what you do to like, push the boundaries and do something new, and it's just very unfortunate that we are in this industry, that the two sides of this industry being us as the artists, which is like almost purely creative, then are held by this damn.
That is being so not creative they're on their heels and they're being reactionary rather than being Proactionary it's very disappointing Which has then brought me to like you mentioned and brought up we try to talk about what we can control in this and Part of streaming is like we can control Our music and releasing our music does it mean us, as artists taking on the risk of budgets and all of that?
Yeah, absolutely. But it also gives us the freedom of being able to hire people that can present our art and music in a way that we think serves our music and
it is creative and is
fresh.
[00:17:24] Caroline: that was one of the hardest things for me when I was signed to a label was the parameters in which I was given to promote and
[00:17:33] Michaela: Mm hm, mm
[00:17:34] Caroline: was much felt like a cog in the wheel. There was no room for adjustment, no room for creativity.
I had to use certain people and that felt really limiting and first album. I was like, okay, i'll play by the rules second album. I was like, this is Ridiculous, why are we spending money on this when I don't care about that?
[00:17:51] Michaela: hm,
[00:17:52] Caroline: We spending money on this when I need that also it felt like Everyone on that label were given like, the same five things, and you just had to do it, no matter at what level you were, and I was like, business side, I was like, this isn't helpful, and then also, I would have ideas that were particular to my songs, my music, my career, my fan base, and I would just hear no, because no one else was doing it, but the whole point Is that, yeah, no one else is doing it because it's applicable to my career.
So
[00:18:21] Aaron: mm
[00:18:21] Caroline: kept hearing no about so many things that like, you know, I put out two albums and made my third independently before it was released by a label. So I'd done this, And the reason why I was signed is because I got my career on my own to a certain level.
it felt like they were in the way
[00:18:38] Michaela: mm hm, mm that were done while I was in that relationship collaboration specifically, every single one, I was told no
[00:18:47] Caroline: And so it was just like this constant fight for like, not only creative ideas that really, We're going to feel good to me as an artist, but also like on a business side, we're like, objectively ideas, but like you said, on the industry side, people have to work within their own parameters.
And, you're a line item on a spreadsheet and it's not in the green I guess that person can only do so much, but it just was so Spirit crushing
[00:19:14] Michaela: mm
hm, mm
[00:19:16] Caroline: mindfuck to be honest of like, why are you saying no to This
[00:19:20] Michaela: hm,
[00:19:21] Caroline: no sense.
[00:19:22] Michaela: yeah.
[00:19:23] Aaron: Yeah, it's in all of this frustration that I hear talking with friends that have label deals and all that about being held back. I also hear like this undertone of we want labels to do well.
We want
labels to be creative. We want labels to like, put our music out in a creative way that is new. there's also like this. frustration of them holding it back, but then like this disappointment of them, like not being cooler, like not being creative, not being
fresh. Like, we all want that.
[00:19:49] Caroline: Yes, I expected when you have that amount of money to invest in an artist that you're
[00:19:53] Aaron: Yes.
[00:19:54] Caroline: gonna maybe try harder.
[00:19:56] Aaron: Yeah, exactly. That whole thing, like,
nobody does it this way. Like, Good, let's do it that way. To me, that's
like a green light when nobody does it that way. everybody like blames Spotify, but like, if you look at what Spotify did, like nobody was doing that, it's like, okay, you have like Napster and LimeWire and all these places where there's music for free.
It's like, okay, what if we just took all of that everything was high quality. You're not going to go like try to listen to a Caroline Spence song and get like some like fish jam from like. ohio in 1994 that was recorded on somebody's mini disc player or whatever like, the songs are going to be what they say they are.
It's going to be high quality, put an asterisk next to there for all our audiophile friends. But a standardized quality at least. and then we just charge people a subscription for it. At the time I'm sure people were like, I'm not going to pay for stuff I can get for free.
But like,
People are paying for music now more than they were. It doesn't come to us, but all I'm saying is that like Spotify, I don't even need to single out Spotify, but it has been shown across industries and across history that like, fresh ideas and people that take risks are rewarded.
the industry needs to do that. It's expected of us as artists to make like new art, fresh art, something that's intriguing,
something that's like
all of that, which is awesome. Like find new stuff and new ways for you to share your voice. need to expect that of.
Labels too.
[00:21:07] Michaela: This conversation is also making me be like I feel like next year we really should have some people who work at record labels come on this because it's really challenging because I think in my conversations with people who work at labels, they're also at a loss.
And a lot of times the people that are responsible that play a role in our lives as creatives of feeling like they're dream killers, like sometimes it's because their hands are tied. and
it's like, it's up what chain of command. And I always reference And Caroline, you and I personally have talked about this, like where I came from a different perspective because the beginning of my career was spent two, three years working at a record label and a
record label that's like really respected Nonesuch Records.
And my experience was like, I knew this office of people who were so wonderful and working so hard, in my opinion all day, trying to sell records and market. I guarantee you, I know because it was public, that there are bands like Wilco or different artists who felt incredibly stifled and creatively blocked and not supported by deals with that label too.
And I always try and remember that, like there's these bureaucratic things that really fuck up our art and our creativity. so for.
[00:22:33] Caroline: really versus the people that are in the office. Sometimes it's the people in the office,
[00:22:37] Michaela: Totally. Sometimes it is the people.
[00:22:41] Caroline: sometimes it really is,
but I would say, yeah, there's only so much a project manager can do for you,
[00:22:47] Michaela: Yes. they like the idea, if there's like a million steps they have to take to get the green light.
[00:22:53] Caroline: there's only so much they can do. So it's not their fault, but it's, yeah, I just found the infrastructure for the type of career that I have and trying to have was very limiting. And it how it affected me personally, it was like, when you hear that many no's to your creative ideas,
[00:23:10] Michaela: Yep.
Yeah.
[00:23:19] Caroline: They owned it, first of all, and if they didn't like it, it would just never exist in the world. And I couldn't take it with me if I left. what that infrastructure did to me is that I stopped letting myself have ideas.
And letting myself make things because it wasn't safe. Someone was going to say no, Then they were going to own this thing that mattered to me that they didn't value. And that was really the turning point when I was like, Oh, I'm being creative because my creativity isn't really safe because it's owned by somebody else.
That part of my career really sucked. I did not like that.
[00:23:59] Michaela: That's what I
think is valuable and I want to talk about that recovery like what you've actually done to help yourself recover because I think that's the most valuable part of this conversation is some artists might be like, cool, I get the infrastructure of record labels.
I'm willing to play the game because I just want this other thing so much and other artists might. have a response like yours of like the thing that I want is creative freedom I'm not getting that in this experience And I'm not feeling supported. So again, like always trying to ground ourselves and like what is the the ethos of This podcast and why we're doing that.
It's like constantly trying to help each other understand like what we think are the markers of success don't fit all of us and actually Don't feel like success for all of us. and untying that for yourself of like, especially living in Nashville and this community I think especially about our community for anybody who doesn't realize listening that you and I are very close friends and talk like on a daily basis.
And around that time, when you signed your label deal, there was a kind Group of us like we were all getting our first label deals and it felt like all these kind of like check marks of like Yeah, see we're all getting like we're getting support. we're gaining Recognition and success and we're doing it together and like it's so cool And we all individually have had our own experiences of what that has been like the last several years What I feel passionate about is like sharing like man what we see on the outside and have been Brought up to believe is the way for me personally It was more disappointing.
I think because I was like, oh this doesn't feel as good as I thought it was supposed
to
and Unwrapping my confidence and my feeling of being affirmed as an artist, regardless of who else was telling the world, yeah, she's good by signing me to their label or booking me shows or whatever that process of feeling good about myself, even though I've Detracted myself from this structure that we all grew up thinking.
That's the goal has been a process for me and I'm curious what it's been like for you.
[00:26:18] Caroline: Yeah. Really, that transition for me started in that chapter when they were threatening to drop this record. with this sort of of being devalued it affected me as a person so much more than it should have.
and like, that was like almost an entire year I felt like a failure. you know, this is an album that was good that I'd written with one of my biggest heroes on. This was a year where I opened up for my childhood hero label head in particular had gotten to me so bad that my self esteem and my identity was like, so crushed. And, the recovery for me was realizing like, Caroline as a business and Caroline as an artist have to be two different things. And further, Caroline as an artist and Caroline as a human being also, that's something I never bothered to separate because I've been doing this for so long. And at a point in my young life where you're like searching for identity and approval that I just was like I'm only good if I'm Caroline the artist. And so it was a real lesson in like personal self esteem
[00:27:31] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:27:31] Caroline: then also career self esteem of being able to Stand on my own in each of those identities and knowing when to lead with which one, but I think I over corrected for a while and was like, I'm just going to be a person.
I don't need this career, blah, blah, blah. But I had to really, and all the while I'm like making things and loving stuff, but
[00:27:54] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:27:55] Caroline: just not touring, not releasing stuff. But now I feel like my. Place that I find myself in recovery is letting my career feel safe again.
Because I've never been this person, this version of myself in this job
[00:28:11] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:28:12] Caroline: with this set of values
[00:28:13] Michaela: and there's uh, huh. Uh huh. huh. That
[00:28:19] Caroline: that I think we all absorb by being young people trying to it and, I've had a few moments where I've been able to be like, okay, You are practicing what you preach.
Like you're able to sort of put that down and lead with the healthier choice. But yeah, for me, it was just really focusing on the person behind the scenes and being able to like, feel good about the personal and artistic wins that like nobody sees
[00:28:46] Aaron: focusing on wins. Is a hard thing for me to do and it's a hard thing I've seen for a lot of friends. It's really easy to focus on what's not going right or struggles or all of that because it's like a very visceral thing. Yeah. I have started and I think I've talked about it on here before, but like I have a note on my phone, like where I mark down like wins.
I might just like take a screenshot or something and put it in there or
write something down. And it's it's just something I can look at. And I don't look at it often, more often than I forget it exists. But when I do remember it exists, I look at it. It's like, Oh yeah. Okay, cool. And it's a nice like little, I I don't know, I want to use like the word like trampoline because like I'll
fall and it kind of like bounces me back up a little bit.
But like, yeah, having to focus on like the little small wins in the day to day wins of like, speaking with Lori McKenna, she called them like signposts, the little signposts along the way. Like This is the right path here.
[00:29:32] Michaela: Speaking of Laurie McKenna, that
you got to write with, yes,
and sings with you.
[00:29:41] Caroline: Just being like, I have done every single thing I wanted to do. I've reached every single goal. My younger self wanted.
[00:29:53] Michaela: hmm,
[00:29:54] Caroline: Chapter where everything was such a struggle with the record and this, these unhelpful voices, I lost track of that. I literally, said by 30, I wanted a pub deal. I wanted to write with Laurie McKenna. all these things. And then a few more that were insane that I like never could have seen coming.
[00:30:12] Michaela: hmm, mm
[00:30:13] Caroline: these industry voices were able to get to me and I devalued myself.
And so it's such cognitive dissonance, but think that's what I'm really trying to hang my hat on is I did what I wanted and most of it I did on my own. And I'm continuing to do work that I feel proud of, that I feel like I'm building a reputation that I feel proud of. And, ultimately, no one can take that away from me unless I let them and I just let them,
I just wasn't strong enough to fight back from that.
And so I think my recovery has really been building that strength up again, and some of it has been allowing myself to be angry.
[00:30:52] Michaela: Yep, allowing myself to have an ego that is helpful yes. I had made myself so small and didn't want to be angry classic lady behavior, I just kind of had to like come up and be like, yeah, no, this isn't working.
[00:31:06] Caroline: I don't like this. I need something better.
[00:31:08] Aaron: there's a fine line between cocky and confident
and there's such a stigma behind cocky, which I understand, but it is possible to be confident and humble at the same time.
[00:31:18] Caroline: Yes. I think You know what
[00:31:19] Aaron: I mean? You can be humble and open and polite and empathetic, but also confident in what you do, you know, and confident in the quality of what you make.
And, your approach, whatever it might be, you can be all of those and not be cocky. It's possible.
Yeah. I think that was a tear jerker. Mm hmm.
[00:31:43] Caroline: agreeable or something, then I would be perceived as cocky, but I just got self esteem at like the age of 30 years old. So I was like, I don't think
[00:31:54] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:31:57] Caroline: kind of thing to navigate in a career.
Cause you forget as a person, I want to be sweet and agreeable and helpful and all those things. But as a business woman, things don't really help you. You need to take up a little more space.
[00:32:12] Michaela: Well, And it's also so challenging to stand up for yourself, whether it's like verbally or by making the decision of like, oh, I know that this space isn't supportive for me anymore and I need to go elsewhere and not take this information and what these people are telling me as my truth.
[00:32:30] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:32:31] Michaela: And knowing that you can do all of those things you're having to do that in the face of people telling you you're less than, that you're not good enough.
And you have to like work so hard to be like, wait, they're telling me this, but let me look at all the things I've done and what I have built. And also just my inherent value and also just my inherent belief in how we should treat each other as people. And I think about that a lot. I don't think she'll mind me referencing, but Mary Gauchet is like, I mean, to most of us, she's like a spiritual sage that kind of always has the right thing to offer.
Like,
I was sharing with her my experience that I've shared a million times on this podcast about what was probably my most damaging industry relationship of like my big time booking agent who said all these incredible things about me and made me believe Oh, well, if he thinks these great things about me, then they must be true that
I'm,
compared to my heroes and all this stuff.
And then. I gave him that power so that when he told me the opposite of those things, I believed that. And I, now that I feel more recovered from that, I was sharing with Mary of my man, I wish I had had the strength at the time to stand up for myself and say
no.
And Mary was like, Mikayla, that's like putting you in the ring with Muhammad Ali.
Like, you
[00:33:53] Caroline: Yeah,
[00:33:54] Michaela: She was like,
[00:33:55] Caroline: done that at our. At that there's no
[00:33:58] Michaela: Exactly. She's like,
you're like a young 30 some, Woman going up against a veteran
industry person who has this stack of success and power like that is unreasonable expectations for yourself.
[00:34:11] Caroline: Yeah.
[00:34:12] Michaela: So having that grace also of okay, this is an experience I had. If I have it again, I will know how I want to behave in response
and also the value in sharing these experiences in the hopes that it helps others respond.
it's a really difficult thing to do to bolster yourself in the face of people being like, You're no longer worthy of our time or investment.
Like,
[00:34:39] Caroline: Mm
[00:34:40] Michaela: I'd be like, cool. I know I am worthy elsewhere. So goodbye.
[00:34:45] Aaron: that's the big paradigm. That's so hard for all of us, no matter where we're at today.
Keep front and center is like it feels like all of these people have the power They really don't because if no artists signed with them and all the artists left they would literally have no job Whether it's a
label or an agent and all of that. So who really does have the power
[00:35:06] Michaela: Yeah
[00:35:17] Caroline: And I get to choose who sits there and I have some regrets, but no big regrets about the decision I made sign with them and go through that experience.
I also have no regrets about asking to leave. I think it's really hard to let yourself not want the thing that you're supposed to want. I just want to enjoy my life and I want to enjoy my career.
And in order to do that, I have to be at the table with people who are creative and excited. And. Wanting me to be myself. in that relationship, there was an idea of who I was and a definitely idea of who I should be. And found myself in a lot of situations feeling like I was walking into a room who was expecting someone else.
And that's just
[00:36:08] Michaela: Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh
[00:36:13] Caroline: I've done the work of what my creativity is for me and I want my songs to live in the world, back to that quote about the artist being humble. to get to the place where I can write from my like unaffected. voice and thoughts. I have to really get down in the dirt and submit and serve some sort of higher whatever. And to then come out of that making these things and then have to present it in this culture of like faux celebrity. And like way of taking yourself so seriously and whatever, trying to join those two things of like deep, pure spiritual, like solitude and creativity. the me, me, me of it all it's like crazy making, and I'm still trying to figure out what it is, but whatever they were expecting it to be for me, I just couldn't do it.
Cause there was such an ick, deep, ick, deep, like spiritual. And
[00:37:11] Michaela: Uh
[00:37:12] Caroline: figure out how to live in this world. I mean, it's like, honestly, if I knew what this job was going to be like nowadays I don't know if my younger self would have made these choices.
[00:37:22] Michaela: huh.
[00:37:22] Caroline: is so hard my sweet therapist at the time of all this was like, this is maybe the worst career you could have ever had. Chosen for your particular personality and trauma. So I was like, yeah, it's really fun out here. I mean, I moved here thinking I'd be like a songwriter behind the scenes. And honestly, that still feels like more comfortable than trying to be an artist, but I've so enjoyed this journey of getting to know myself as an artist and songwriter, but yeah it's, it's hard out there kids. It's hard.
[00:37:56] Michaela: one of the things we talk about sometimes on this podcast, I feel like it's actually been a while, is like using our songs as a therapeutic practice or feeling
And maybe it's also both, but like do we work things out through our songs or do we feel like we have to use other mediums and other therapeutic practices to work things out to then be able to write songs?
And I'm curious for you what that feels like, because I also have like a little more insider information because I've heard some of your songs that you haven't yet released and you have an
incredible song that you just released, Confront It, where it feels like a lot of this stuff. Is being worked out in your songs I was wondering if you could talk about that a little bit.
[00:38:36] Caroline: Yeah. I mean, I think those things have very much gone hand in hand the last three years. I've been in therapy on and off. during that time from being isolated in the pandemic to having to shoot three music videos in a day. I was like, I can't be perceived anymore.
Like,
[00:38:51] Michaela: Mm hmm. Mm
[00:38:53] Caroline: like
so much. self work in the last couple of years. And yeah, it comes out because I really sit down by myself it's always felt like when I sit down by myself and get quiet, that's when my real thoughts appear.
And sometimes I don't figure out how I feel about something until I've put it. the format of the song.
[00:39:17] Aaron: hmm.
[00:39:19] Caroline: woo woo, but it's really like, confront it, I wrote in 30 minutes there's been a couple where it's just like, somehow I put myself in this context and I can access some part of my brain that doesn't filter. Out the bad stuff,
Or the hard stuff.
So many of us, including myself, we walk around trying to push down the hard stuff. And so I do feel like one of the roles I feel like I play, as an artist is to give somebody my hard feelings wrapped up in a little bow So it doesn't feel like this big giant gray cloud that hangs above you because it felt that way until I wrote this thing.
[00:39:56] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:39:56] Caroline: There have been so many songs since i've started being in therapy on and off that have felt like that for me as i've put them out in the world It's been shared with me that it's felt that way to others and that has been You Deeply meaningful because it makes me feel less alone because I felt super alone when I wrote that And it made someone else feel less alone. So in taking care of myself in offering of myself. Been shown to me that it can help others. So that's something that, that self work has given me. And it's changed how I want to show up in my career
[00:40:32] Aaron: what you're just saying, like,
really encapsulated what I was thinking when you mentioned this era of faux celebrity, there are infinite possibilities to show up as a celebrity beyond the stereotypical image of what we have as a celebrity.
And to me, showing up like that, being honest and real in your songs, is this beacon, this idol, something that somebody can see to then show up as themselves. So if you remove both people, both objects on the side of the equation in the middle is, Being drawn to something being like inspired by something as simple as like being moved by something whether it's a celebrity on the level of Beyonce or it's Vulnerability celebrity of showing up honestly and an integrity in your songs to me That's doing same exact thing and it doesn't necessarily have to be this on the front of a box of Wheaties, celebrity that we've come to know.
[00:41:25] Michaela: Well, I think it goes back to all of us continually deciding for ourselves what is our why and what feels good for us as artists and what we're willing to adapt to or change to in exchange for what we think we'll get out of it we hear all the time people being like, I hate Tik Tok, but if that's what I got to do to try and like reach people with my music, I'll do it and there's no shame in any of that.
I think we all need to know what our. desires are, are true desires do I want to be pop star status? Okay, there's definitely things that seem like you have to do to be pop star status. If you're not willing to do that, know thyself basically, which I think is like what we're really essentially talking about is Coming to know what our lines are, even if they're not like deep, scary lines, just Hmm, I don't want to do that. So clearly I don't want that other thing that badly. I want this other thing, even if it's smaller
and, you know.
[00:42:24] Caroline: is accepting that
[00:42:25] Michaela: Uh huh.
[00:42:26] Caroline: letting not getting the other thing bother you.
[00:42:29] Michaela: Yes.
[00:42:29] Caroline: I'm not gonna play Bonnaroo. I mean I would, but like, I just am like, I would rather have the career where I'm playing like.
Attic a bunch of nights in a row,
[00:42:40] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:42:41] Caroline: and connecting with people and talking with people and having to throw together a festival set every single weekend. Not that I don't love that too, because I love that, but it's
[00:42:50] Michaela: it's not your ideal.
[00:42:52] Caroline: It's not my ideal and also like, it's one of those things where like, if that opportunity presents itself, I think I would know how to step up to it, I'm not building my career in a way where that feels like an obvious opportunity.
And so I can't idolize playing Lollapalooza if I'm writing slow fucking emotional ballads only or whatever.
[00:43:13] Michaela: Right.
Yeah. Mm
[00:43:18] Caroline: just like being able to, see yourself realistically and allow things that feel good to you to be good enough.
And I mean, I think that one of the reasons I'm able to feel this way is because I do feel like my home life, I'm married. We're expecting a kid. part of my career is writing for and TV and other people. And I write when I'm at home, I have this rich life outside of being on stage and being perceived, that does satisfy me personally and creatively.
So I don't have this singular environment in which I'm able to, feel creatively satisfied so that's something we all can control is trying to figure out what spaces we can occupy and access that part of ourselves. Because I feel just as good writing.
something for film and TV and like getting to see a track go from like A to Z. then I do like being on stage and playing a show. they're equal. And sometimes the creation for me is really the best part.
[00:44:20] Michaela: hmm. Mm
[00:44:21] Caroline: Yeah, I feel lucky that I have other spaces outside of a public career where I'm able to feel like an artist.
[00:44:27] Aaron: earlier you said, you've done everything that you've wanted to do. there was a checklist, and you checked those things, you accomplished those goals, that's something I've experienced, it's something I've I've heard a lot of people around our age, around our point in long path of this career heard them say, and it makes me think that like, obviously achieving your goals is incredible, but like, you know, when those goals are long running, like they are for a lot of us to do X, Y, and Z that you had as a goal as a 15 year old, they're wonderful, but those are like sugar highs.
the high fructose corn syrup sugar version of Success it's awesome. It tastes really great. But like
[00:45:04] Michaela: you need more
[00:45:04] Aaron: you're gonna constantly need more and need more once you can recalibrate and taste the difference between like a the sweetness of a Gala apple and a Honeycrisp apple.
I'm, to use our kid as an example Uh, I think there's, there's a lot more opportunity for sweetness to just really just hammer this analogy home. and like hearing you say that, that you get this fulfillment of seeing something that you're making go from like A to Z is kind of the same as like being on stage.
It's like, it's, it's. Just makes me really happy to hear that and I can definitely relate to that.
[00:45:35] Caroline: Yeah, I Mm-Hmm?
about the personal satisfaction being a big part of the sustainability sometimes when we're caught up in the sugar high of it all,
and something I've said to Mikayla several times is, this is your life.
[00:45:51] Michaela: Yes. Mm-Hmm? . . Mm-Hmm.
[00:45:53] Caroline: we've been like, caught up in, I, like, drive 16 hours for this one off
[00:45:59] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:45:59] Caroline: blah, blah, blah, or like, you know,
[00:46:02] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:46:02] Caroline: this person said that, this is your life.
This is literally your life and no one else's, and I'm really trying to practice what I preach and remember that
[00:46:12] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:46:12] Caroline: fact that I've done this as part of my living. For so long, unbelievable.
[00:46:19] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:46:20] Caroline: That I'm pretty good at the thing that makes me the happiest is incredibly lucky.
I spent a lot of my life not enjoying myself as like a person and not valuing her outside of this. I .
[00:46:36] Michaela: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.
[00:46:37] Caroline: Satisfaction, my relationships, my friendships. Feel so important. And I think that is going to be a huge part of my sustainability and my ability to do this work going forward is continuing anchor myself to that more than anything else.
[00:46:52] Michaela: Yeah. And I think the, we can have these core beliefs or these evolutions where we learn this and also understand we still need the reminders for ourselves that there
still might be a day where we get pulled into feeling, as you we know because the three of us are intimately involved in each other's lives and very close friends like some days we're all really good at standing in what we feel like we've grown into and Valuing a whole full life and other days.
We're like fuck. This is hard And
I'm letting these negative things come in Mm
[00:47:28] Caroline: mean,
that's like why the group text episode and so many of the other people talk about the importance of community having people around for, um, showing you different examples. I mean, That's what this podcast says. It shows you different examples of versions of,
[00:47:42] Michaela: this life Yeah
[00:47:44] Caroline: it's very grounding and can kind of get you off the ledge. But yeah, even though I've learned all this, I have not had to put it into serious practice. Within the context of an album release. So I'm
[00:47:56] Michaela: Oh, yeah.
[00:47:57] Caroline: so far so good. But I think what's going to help me navigate this is that I'm in complete control of this
[00:48:05] Aaron: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:48:06] Caroline: I think it's going to be a lot easier for me to live by the lessons I've learned. Because I'm gonna own my shit.
[00:48:14] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:48:15] Caroline: and figuratively.
[00:48:17] Michaela: That empowering feeling. I feel like we need to have follow ups we're gonna have to do a follow up next year after you've gone through the
whole
album cycle. We need a follow up with Becca.
[00:48:27] Aaron: You did call her out. I know,
[00:48:28] Michaela: cause Becca Munkari was on here and was at the
beginning of it, and was like, I feel so
strong in myself.
I'm like, let's talk in a year and see how you did. Not like, I think you're gonna have a hard time, but just I'm So curious, the practice we have to do, it's always all the things I always think
about,
parenthood is such a, helpful, growth mechanism in my experience. That doesn't mean I think everyone needs to be parents or should be parents or anything like that.
I'm very careful of those cliches, but like, I remember so much of my fear around becoming a mother of how it would keep me from getting to do the things I wanted to do and I really valued career building and touring and like the high of that and was addicted to it and still struggle with that sometimes.
But I remember like one night. Georgia was like in her diaper, and we were all just laying in bed, and she was toddling around, a little toddler, and she like tripped and fell and landed on Aaron's face with her diaper. So she was like sitting on his face and farted, and like the three of us, thought it was the fart.
Funniest thing in the world and she was like two so it felt like this momentous thing of like we're in on this joke with our little two year old that we're watching like develop
a personality
and I remember in that moment the like hysterical laughter of the three of us I had like a flash of this is like higher than any high I've ever experienced. And like, it's different. Funny,
[00:49:54] Aaron: me with a toddler butt on my face getting farted on, didn't think it was like the greatest example. But what,
But what an analogy for the music industry. You know, sometimes toddler sits on your face and farts and it's just like, it's actually the greatest thing. I am
giving a gift to the world.
[00:50:09] Caroline: And sometimes the toddler is the record label. Oh my
[00:50:15] Michaela: And won't stop saying no. Oh my God.
[00:50:19] Aaron: I will say a toddler's way better at releasing than a record label though.
[00:50:23] Caroline: Yeah, definitely. Oh, Ayo.
[00:50:27] Michaela: Anyways, but that goes back to like,
the personal wins that nobody else knows about. Clearly now people know about it because I just shared it, but but really valuing these things that are not on a resume that are not postable that are really about like just our own nourishment are always
good reminders.
[00:50:48] Caroline: I can't remember who I first heard say this, but it's like, you can only write so many songs about being on the road, it becomes unrelatable if all your songs are about this job. And I've had a few of those.
[00:50:59] Michaela: Yeah. I don't have anything else to write about because that's all I'm doing.
Yep.
[00:51:03] Caroline: live your life.
[00:51:04] Aaron: Yeah.
Yeah, and I feel like I also need to raise the caveat that like, you guys have both mentioned that, when the label comes back and they're like the numbers this and blah blah blah and it they present it as like your failure doesn't mean they're right.
It's actually their failure because their job is to Get your record heard. So technically they're the one failing. And even though they're saying that you are the one failing doesn't mean that they're right. So keep that in mind.
[00:51:26] Michaela: Yeah. Summary of this episode is the Caroline Spence quote.
Your life is yours.
[00:51:34] Caroline: Your life is yours. It's literally only for you.
[00:51:39] Michaela: Your life is for you. That's what you always say. That's the exact wording. Your life is for you.
[00:51:45] Caroline: Yeah.
Aww, that is nice.
[00:51:52] Aaron: I like how we all just kind of sat here and marinated in that for a minute.
[00:51:55] Michaela: I think about it all the time. Cause there's been millions of phone calls where I'm, spinning out and Caroline says, Michaela. Your life is for you and it helps put it in perspective of like I got some choices here
[00:52:07] Aaron: Yeah, you always have power.
[00:52:09] Caroline: it's like they want us to share more of ourselves and whatever as a means of marketing, whatever, blah, blah, blah. But that's a version of your life. And then there's, Your real life and not getting those two things confused yeah, oh you know what i'm wise sometimes i'm just gonna sit in that that's a good quote. That's a good quote
[00:52:29] Michaela: You are
Well, Thank you so much for making time to come and sit with us this morning.
[00:52:35] Caroline: Thanks for having me
[00:52:37] Michaela: Thank you for being willing to share so openly about what you've been going through.
[00:52:40] Caroline: Yeah, I appreciate y'all. It's been a struggle for me to talk about this in any sort of public way. Put it in a little Instagram post, so it's been nice to have the opportunity to, maybe catch up a couple fans who've been wondering what the hell I've been hinting at for the last four years.
[00:52:58] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:52:59] Michaela: Yeah. sweet and welcome in.
[00:53:02] Caroline: All right, Caroline, thank you so much.
[00:53:03] Michaela: Love you. Bye.