Johnnyswim, the duo Amanda Sudano and Abner Ramirez, have been releasing records since 2008, have played The Tonight Show (Leno edition), and the Late Late Show, NPR's Tiny Desk and All Things Considered, their song is the theme to Fixer Upper on HGTV, they've had two TV series chronicling their life (Home on the Road, and The Johnnyswim Show, both on Magnolia Network), they've written and published a book titled "Home Sweet Road: Finding Love, Making Music, and Building a Life One City at a Time", and are currently working on a new creative outlet that we discuss here. We talk with Amanda and Abner about staying curious in our pursuits, creating space for wonder and childlike-ness, how to rejuvenate yourself and your creativity on the run, the blinders of fixation, and a whole lot more.
Johnnyswim, the duo Amanda Sudano and Abner Ramirez, have been releasing records since 2008, have played The Tonight Show (Leno edition), and the Late Late Show, NPR's Tiny Desk and All Things Considered, their song is the theme to Fixer Upper on HGTV, they've had two TV series chronicling their life (Home on the Road, and The Johnnyswim Show, both on Magnolia Network), they've written and published a book titled "Home Sweet Road: Finding Love, Making Music, and Building a Life One City at a Time", and are currently working on a new creative outlet that we discuss here. We talk with Amanda and Abner about staying curious in our pursuits, creating space for wonder and childlike-ness, how to rejuvenate yourself and your creativity on the run, the blinders of fixation, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 113. This week we are featuring our conversation with Amanda and Abner of Johnnyswim.
Aaron: Yeah, they started putting out records as Johnny Swim in 2008, and since then they've been on a bunch of late night shows like Leno.
in the late late show with Craig Ferguson, they've been on NPRs Tiny Desk All Things Considered, and their song Home is the theme song of a. Little known TV show called Fixer Upper.
Michaela: They have done a lot beyond just putting out records and playing music. They've published a book called Home Sweet Road, finding Love, making Music, and Building a Life One City at a Time.
They've even had their own TV show on [00:01:00] the Magnolia Network from Chip and Joanna Gaines from The Fixer Upper and they're currently working on a musical.
Aaron: Yeah, it's Quite a varied, diverse creative life, which is one of the topics we touch on here. More so about like expanding your definition of success and accepting that it can be much bigger than just a very streamlined, narrow focus of success in your career.
It's a very wholesome look at it, just like what it means to be human and what it means to be alive.
Michaela: Yeah. We talk a lot about Prioritizing how we recharge and how important that is, even though it can be so challenging to do so. What. Is fertile ground for creativity, how we stay open and curious and staring at grass.
I think we said multiple times. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. But this conversation was so fun. We all were just like, we could probably sit and talk for 10 hours. It felt like we were rapid fire trying to fit everything in.
Aaron: Yeah. It's one of those conversations we love. It just is like, a rocket ship right from the start.
But before we get into that we must point out [00:02:00] that, some of the topics that we talk about in this conversation come from suggestions from our Patreon community. That's because they get advanced notice of the guests before we have these conversations and they could submit questions, thoughts, topics, all of that.
So if that sounds interesting to you or if you'd like to just support this show financially, it is the only way that we, make money to produce this show. So if any of that sounds like it's up your alley, there is a link for the Patreon below in our show notes.
Michaela: And if you are a visual person, this conversation and all of our previous conversations are available on YouTube.
So without further ado, here's our conversation with Johnny Swim.
nice to meet you both. Uh,
yeah. yeah. I'm Mikayla,
Aaron: I'm Aaron.
Amanda: Hi, Michaela and Aaron. I'm Yeah, I'm Abner.
Aaron: Yeah. We always kind of give a rundown 'cause we're not sure what gets passed on. We actually spoke to, drew Holcomb a couple hours ago. So same, same publicist roster. We know they're,
we know they're great and very on top of things, but just to give a rundown, like, we're not journalists.
I'm a [00:03:00] producer. She's a singer songwriter. This is like purposely artist to artist kind of
conversations about how we all stay creative and inspired and sane when
all of a sudden, like our livelihood is based on our
creativity. Yeah.
Amanda: we, we didn't already, we haven't already
Aaron: Right. Yeah.
Amanda: cried once today. It's fine. We don't need to do it
Abner: again.
Michaela: Yep. Heard,
I love that.
Yeah. It's just part of the, daily
routine. And we also just precursor, we have a three month old baby.
Amanda: Bless it. So Yeah, he is. And he was in here for our earlier interview, but we have a friend holding him inside right now. Um,
hold him. I wanna hold him. I know. I don't have any emotional support babies in my life right now. All my friends' kids are now like the babiest of the baby now is like two and doesn't care about anybody anymore. And I'm like, we need an emotional support community, baby. And I'm
Aaron: yeah,
Amanda: honestly, can
Abner: we please just make one?
And I'm like,
Amanda: no, I already
Aaron: he's
Amanda: [00:04:00] today. As we've established
Aaron: It's such a crazy, you guys have three, is that right? Yeah.
Michaela: how old are they?
Amanda: seven next week and five.
Michaela: Okay. so we have a three and a half year old, and so yeah, this three month old
I just shared to be like, our brains aren't totally
functioning right now.
Um,
But I don't know if you
Aaron: guys noticed this when you went from one to two, but at least for me, and I think you've said it too, but like the sleep deprivation is less jarring, it's more like subversive, like,
like I'm like, I'm feeling fine, and all of
a sudden I realize like, I'm not forming sentences.
Michaela: Yeah.
Yeah.
Amanda: felt the same way. I actually felt like going from zero to one in our lifestyle was much harder
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: from one to two, one to two. I'm like, there's already chaos. We already know what this
Michaela: Yep.
Amanda: is. We know we understand it, we got it, but zero to one.
I was like, what do we
Michaela: Yeah.
Amanda: How do we do this? you know, our oldest is 10 and then seven, you know, we had a three and a half year old when we had a newborn, so
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: that plight. I hope you're watching a lot of TV in the meantime. [00:05:00] I guess at three months you're kind of out of that
Michaela: The, first couple of weeks, I can't even remember the name of the show, but it was some show on Netflix that had seven seasons, and I watched
the entire thing in bed.
Well,
Amanda: I watched, I watched The Crown. that was
our second was like, I'm gonna put on the crown and then whatever, a couple murder mysteries like the staircase. Do you remember that?
Aaron: No. Mm-hmm.
Amanda: It was like, it was about
Abner: an owl that killed a lady.
Aaron: Oh,
Amanda: that's what they think now happened.
But like, it was like this whole, like, it was a documentary and then it, they made a show out of it, and it was like a, who done it kind of thing. But like one of the theories that has now like, the stand, this as a time, the prevailing theory now is that an owl killed her, but they were
Aaron: oh.
Amanda: husband, her son, the neighbor, you know.
And so that goes through like all these things of who killed her. And then like, one doctor, like after, you know, there was already like trials and everything happening was like, oh, these kind of owls live in her neighborhood. Or they migrate there and this is the kind of marks that they leave and this is what happens.
And then people
Aaron: Oh my God.
Amanda: is what happened anyway
Abner: back. So that's exactly what we, that's you guys here to talk about this owl?
Amanda: Are you guys in Nashville?
Michaela: [00:06:00] we are. We are. Yeah.
Aaron: How about you guys?
Amanda: Spring behind you.
Abner: Yeah, it It is, yeah.
Michaela: It's raining today.
Aaron: Yeah. And you guys are in la Is that what we heard? Cool. because you guys were here, how long have you guys been in la?
Amanda: well, I'm originally from here. And then she says
Abner: that she claims LA as she should. She's born in Cedar Sinai, but she went to middle school, high school and college in Nashville, Tennessee. No, I didn't. Oh, did you not? No. Where'd you go to middle school?
Amanda: I was in Connecticut
and Nashville.
Abner: Oh.
Amanda: For one year I went to high school.
I went to high school and and, and
Abner: one year in middle school.
Amanda: Yeah. And then the rest was five years in Connecticut. You skipped over Connecticut. You can't skip over Connecticut. I'm just saying you were there for
Abner: a long time.
Amanda: Oh, yeah, yeah, but like originally from here and then we moved back here from Nashville in 2010.
Aaron: Oh, cool.
Michaela: Okay.
Amanda: Which is how many years ago. Yeah. We've been here
Abner: 15 15 years. Yeah.
Yeah. Claim it.
Michaela: Yeah. How does that,
yeah. How does that feel? we lived in New York City for 10 years and then moved to
Nashville and have been here for 10 years. Cause we met in college [00:07:00] in New York. But, They're both, music cities in
a way. Like
how does it feel in the, comparisons
of, both places.
Abner: the way we've built our relationship, even when we were just friends into dating, into marriage, and now our whole life has been, and it sounds like a, corny bit, but it's the truth. It's built around community.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: we look to do, or the number one thing we, we covet or cherish the most is the community.
We, put ourselves into that we build around ourselves, both end. And in Nashville we had a really strong community the people that we love and we still do. And a lot of those folks started coming to la. realized career-wise it was, not happening for us in Nashville.
Nobody. believed in duos at the time, and brown folks singing like folky
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Abner: sense either. Both of which are very popular now. we moved to LA because we had community here. And so the, real sense, when I think of being in a city, living in a city, I don't think of the town.
I don't think of the culture of the town as much. I don't think that first,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Abner: thing I think we both think of is, uh, the people we're with.
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Abner: LA now feels like what Nashville used to feel [00:08:00] like for us. And when we visit Nashville now it feels super foreign. It
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: like nothing we understand,
Michaela: I mean,
Aaron: even in the 10 years we've been here, it feels different. because as you know, like the pandemic started and we had
our first born like about a year and a half into the pandemic. So like with the pandemic plus like entering parenthood for
the first time.
Now I'll go out and I'm like, my, I don't know anybody here. Yeah,
And, and you know, like the town is physically changing with buildings. So often there's parts of town, I'm like, wait,
where in Nashville? What is this?
Michaela: Yeah, the time. and I'm like, I went to high school and college here. I should know this very well. And I'm like, don't know where I'm at. Don't yeah. the little places that I'm like, oh, let's go to this. Oh, that's not there anymore.
Amanda: But there's a cool place there. I've got Fido
Abner: still there.
Amanda: Fido's Yes.
Aaron: Yeah.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: up every so often I still go back. That's a hard hug. That's a little hard hug. Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah.
Amanda: like I was living in New York when we met and I would go visit Nashville, New York.
The, kind of creative scene was very like, we have to do to be successful, what's cool right now? And that's what we're gonna do.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: I [00:09:00] remember visiting that. A cool what's winning? What's, yeah, what's winning? It's, yeah, exactly. Not even cool, like what's successful, I guess maybe LA is more like, what's cool.
New York was more like, what's successful? Like how do we get a win? And I remember visiting Nashville and when I met Abner and like a lot of his friends, you know, who were like songwriters but did other things, you know, like everybody was
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: yeah, I work at insurance, but here's a song I wrote.
And I remember being so refreshed by it, like,
Aaron: Yeah.
Amanda: That's how I feel. I'm gonna do this anyway, even if I have other jobs and like, I don't. Feel the need to just be like, what is gonna be the coolest, most successful thing? Like, I kind of wanna do the most honest thing. And that's what Nashville felt like.
And
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: in the songwriting circles, it still feels that way. I'm guessing still
Abner: in like the circles where people are waiters and writing songs. Hopefully it still feels like that. Yeah. But in the, professional world of Nashville, it no longer feels charming.
Amanda: That's what I'm asking. I don't know. Yeah.
Abner: Maybe it, maybe it does. Maybe it's still super
Michaela: I you maybe know more than I do because I feel very much like, I'm in like the Americana kind of indie country scene, but now that [00:10:00] I'm mom I feel like I just have my friends
and that's who I make music with. Mm-hmm. And I don't really like enter into the world of like, the professional world
anymore.
I feel very much like, Yeah.
Amanda: A hundred percent. That's how we are.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: know how Nashville is, 'cause I'm like, we haven't done it in so long. As far as like
Abner: strongly agree,
Amanda: you know?
Aaron: Yeah, and I'm kind of publishing world adjacent in that I read a lot for sync
and so I get set up on writes and all of that, but like my sync rep kind of gets where I'm
coming from. So like, even if it's it's a stranger, we're kinda all approaching it like, let's make music and let's make
art and talk, you know, rather than like
Yeah.
And then
Michaela: really cross our fingers that we land a sink and make some money. Yeah.
exactly. 100. Hallelujah. It's always that random phone call too. Like for us it was Honda for a while. Honda wants to re-up and it's just the acoustic guitar part. It could have been anybody, my
Oh yeah.
Abner: son could record that guitar part. they want to re-up this song and they say it's the song, but I know it's just a guitar part
it like makes our year and it's.
The most basic [00:11:00] thing you could possibly do, and it's, uh,
Amanda: nothing we've cried
Abner: over.
Michaela: Yeah,
exactly. and tears, but then the one thing that we recorded on the cheapest mic we own not caring. We don't even own it anymore. Nobody cares. Is the
it,
Amanda: bills have that mic
Abner: anymore,
Michaela: Yeah. there for a while? It we literally kept the cheap mic, on display because we're like, it's old
Abner: blue mic. The old like
Aaron: Oh yeah. Totally.
Abner: blue mic. Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah, it's funny how that works. It's like you want this one?
You want what, what? But we spent so much time on
this other one. What about this
Amanda: No. Okay. I felt
Abner: like God visited me when we wrote and recorded this song.
Michaela: Yeah. like forgettable.
Amanda: so And I love that those calls usually come like the day after. You're like, I think we gotta do something else
Michaela: with our lives.
Amanda: always,
We always joke because at some point before we had kids, we were riding around and I thought I was pregnant. And I was like, we have to figure this out. Like you're gonna have to get a job. And he was like, absolutely not. Not Not doing it. And I was like, if I was pregnant and we needed money, like you'd have to go get a job.
And he is like, I'd figure something out. I'd sell something. I'm not going to get a job. Like I'm
Aaron: Yeah.
Amanda: job. It was like,
Abner: they [00:12:00] don't want me, nobody wants
Amanda: this. am built for
Michaela: Yeah.
Amanda: thing, you know?
Aaron: I remember distinctly we were, Mikayla was playing on one of those music festival cruises,
Kayano. I was going out to play with it.
Kamo. Exactly. You know, and before we left, I just, kind of tongue in cheek like, sent my sinker up a note. I was like, Hey man, I'm gonna be on a boat for like a week.
No internet. I was like, anything that comes in is a yes. Just sign off. I'm
good.
And he laughed. He's like, okay, man. I got three
placements in
that week that I was on the boat. Yeah. He's like, man, you need to go more often. He's like, You go, just say yes.
Amanda: That is so
Aaron: Yeah.
Michaela: And again, like around a time when we were having conversations of like, do we need to get jobs?
What
masters are you gonna get? Oh, yeah,
Abner: Right.
Amanda: And you probably were like, should I go on this cruise? Like, maybe I should stay home and work. But
Aaron: yeah. All of that.
Amanda: also like the lesson that you're always learning is the work is still working without you, the seeds are still growing without you. Mm-hmm. And
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: to not feel like you have to constantly be having your hands in the dirt.
And sometimes you just have to like live your old life. You know what I mean?
Michaela: Yeah.
Amanda: of the way, relax, you're fine. [00:13:00] And it's a good reminder for us creatives. I think. I was just
Abner: having this Mm-hmm. dear friend of ours, Britain new Bill, who's a very successful songwriter, lives in London.
He's from Hendersonville, Tennessee,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Abner: Britain and he lives in Great Britain. Anyway, he was like, man, I just keep, remembering we do the work, but God brings the increase. I feel like my duty is to go make the increase happen, right? I gotta go make the increase happen.
And whatever you believe.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: I think it's easy to agree that so often the growth comes with or without your effort, like the building and the doing takes effort.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: right. You have to just trust for,
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.
Abner: part.
Aaron: It is the hardest. I was just gonna ask, does that trust kind of come naturally or do you guys have stuff that you do to, feed that oven
Michaela: and to remind each other?
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: remind each other of it. I think the crazy thing is we're not accountants and I used to pray that God would make me, make me wanna be an accountant
Aaron: Yeah.
Amanda: something that's just like, I know my work. I've done my work, my work is done, I go home, I shut it off.
You know what I
Michaela: Yep.
Amanda: well, and maybe accountants don't feel that way. Actually I have, my friend's mom is an accountant and she's probably like, it's tax [00:14:00] season, LOL. You think I go
Aaron: Yeah.
Amanda: shut it off?
Abner: It's just after now she's gonna Disneyland, you know? Yeah,
Amanda: exactly. Now she's good. But you know, you're so used to like having to hustle for
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: you have to make things happen you have to go sit on a corner and play a song, or you have to record yourself and put it on the line, or you have to go play open like you have to do stuff. the beginning I think it's fun, right?
You're like, oh, I'm doing this thing and I have this song and I can't wait to play it. And I'm, you know, you're excited about it. And then after a while you're like, oh, I gotta keep, we always kind of use the analogy of like blowing a balloon up. you have to keep blowing the balloon up. 'cause as soon as you stop blowing, it starts seeping out and then you're like, oh, my balloon's seeping out.
It's a balloon. You
Abner: can never tie off.
Aaron: Yeah.
Abner: Never. Like you never rest on your laurels.
Amanda: Never. I mean, I feel like there's some people now who like, you get, you know, a couple songs in there that make your life and then they can probably stop blowing.
Abner: Sure.
But then, you know, then they go play a show and they're playing the smallest shows of their life, even though the song made 'em a bunch of money.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. that's true. That's true. Unless they do the work
Abner: and blow the balloon back up.
Amanda: That's true. so we don't know. The answer is we have no idea.
Aaron: Yeah.
Amanda: do, we do try to remind ourselves I think [00:15:00] we both had health issues in the last couple years and I don't think that they were related to like.
Work or touring or anything like that. But it was a good reminder of like, my best is what I can do while still being emotionally and physically healthy. That's my best. That's sos far. And I think
Aaron: Mm.
Amanda: it would be like, there's still more in the tank I can give, you know? But then
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: you were on death doorstep in one way or another.
Abner: Oh man. the shows you play when you got the flu before COVID,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: dog sick. Yeah. And you just steam in your face. You can't even talk to anybody. And then you walk on stage and you do the thing for 90 minutes ' cause that's what pays the bills. And you just gotta make it happen.
And then you leave. Kind of proud of yourself. Yeah. I think that's the most toxic part of the whole thing is that feeling. You get that dopamine rush. Yeah. I did it. I pushed through. Oh, I pushed
Aaron: Oh, yeah.
Abner: And you like glorify this thing that's going to destroy you.
Michaela: Well, and so much of building a career in music, and I'm sure in many other industries is like showing people that you'll do it no
matter what the cost.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: We used to always be like, we'll say yes to anything. We'll strap a guitar on our [00:16:00] backs, then we'll go. And now I'm like, no. Do I have to, the other question is, do I have
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: No.
Abner: Yeah.
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: Everybody
Amanda: long to get there, you
Aaron: it did, you know, everybody would say, it's like, no, it's quality over quantity. I'm like, but it could be both. It could be quality
and quantity all the time.
Amanda: course,
Abner: man. Of course. And I get that. in our career. I would hate the holidays 'cause everything stopped. Nobody's responding to an email. Nobody's going to get coffee. Nobody's giving you advice or giving you a response to something you sent out.
And I remember her dad would, and I, her dad's amazing songwriter, producer, he's like, man, I remember feeling like that as a kid. You'll get over it. You'll get over it. And
Amanda: look at us. Now,
Michaela: Yeah.
Abner: the Yeah. I'm. obviously great, but Yes. Oh, yeah. stopped.
Aaron: it's hard. I equate it to like those moving walkways at the
airport, you know, the flat ones. It's like you're going, you're flying, you're like, this is great, and then all of a sudden like, you have to
walk with your own feet and you're like, whoa.
Amanda: Like
this feels like a big change of pace.
Aaron: Yeah.
Amanda: It's, crazy.
Michaela: one of the reasons we wanted to have this podcast is even when you're on the inside and you live [00:17:00] this, you still don't always understand like, oh, no. Even though, they're selling out Red Rocks or they're doing this
Michaela: that doesn't mean they're gonna do it the next year
or the next year.
Mm-hmm. There's like, the anxiety doesn't ever actually go away. cause like you guys from the outside looking in, I'm like, oh my God, they're golden. They've got all this big stuff that's happened in their lives, in their careers,
like their fixer upper theme song.
Like, come
it's just a good reminder of being like, no.
We also are like, how are we gonna keep this going?
How are we gonna sustain? How are we gonna grow? Also, we've got three kids.
Amanda: Right, 100%. And mortgage,
Abner: do I wanna blow this balloon back up? This thing is smaller than it used to be. Do I Mm-hmm.
at 42 to blow up the balloon that I blew up initially at 25 or 22? Oh my God, it's been 20 years.
Amanda: We were talking to Britain, the same guy who was talking yesterday We were talking about that same thing of like, you're just still like, you know, looking around going, how is everybody else doing and how are we doing?
so we just got home from tour a few days ago. And in the beginning I was like, oh, I'm so excited to get back on.
And Abner's [00:18:00] like looking at know, the ticket tails and he's like, we sold this room out last time. We're not selling it out. This, you know, and he was looking at every, and I'm like, yeah, but the rooms feel good. The energy's good. like, I don't see that I'm looking
Abner: at everything but the music too.
And so,
Aaron: Mm. Yep.
Amanda: he got to a point on, the second night was like, do I like doing this? I like this or am I just stressed out all the time and feel like I need to? And I feel the same way sometimes when we're home and we're writing, we're working on a project right now that we're like not technically supposed to talk about, but it's a musical.
We can't tell the
Abner: name. Yeah, you can't tell the name. We tell what we're doing. It's
Amanda: a musical. So it's something like very different from what we normally do and what we normally write. And we went into it thinking we're just gonna do it our way gonna be like a version of us.
So it's not gonna be a typical musical, it's gonna be whatever. Come to find out people in the musical world, they like their rules and they like to have their, thing the way that they like it.
Abner: they like the rules to be broken 'cause they like to say we did it differently.
But you have to, absolutely blow the socks off everyone to get that rule broken
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Abner: have it stuck with, by the way, I wanted to add real quick. A week ago I wrote on a wall backstage at a venue we were playing, classic venue. Everybody signed the wall, we'd [00:19:00] signed the wall multiple times. And so I took a big silver paint pen and I wrote Johnny Swim and I looked at it and I said.
been here and I looked at it and I said. Maybe too many times, like maybe this is too much. So literally backstage and one day somebody that heard this will see us
Michaela: Yeah.
Abner: venue. They'll be at that venue and they'll see in the artist dressing room in huge silver letters. Johnny Swim has been here maybe too many times.
Yeah,
Amanda: but I was gonna say this, like in this musical project, at some point in like January when we were like really in the thick of it and we had an album coming out, we were the tours coming up and we're sitting here trying to write musical songs and having people be like, that's cute for a pop song, but that's not right for this.
And you're like, Ugh. I was like, I don't think I like this. I think I need to get another job because I don't. Like, I'm not enjoying this at all.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: you know, a couple weeks, obviously you get out of it, but I was saying that to our friend Bri and AB was like, yeah, on tour I was singing the same thing.
Like, do I even like this? And you know, you come out of it, but Britain was like, every single person I know feels the same way. I think that's a good sign of being actually in a good place a healthy place of [00:20:00] it. it's not just like, oh, this is the best thing ever.
And I'm so good at it. It's like, oh, this is hard sometimes. maybe it's, growth and health to be able to imagine yourself doing other things.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Abner: thing that's happened with us.
Amanda: This is therapy. Thank you guys Yeah. How much are you guys? We're charging. We're gonna call Hey. No, it, it's a trade. 'cause it, it, it's for us too. Yeah, it is. It is fully for us too.
Abner: I've seen Amanda and I, and I'm really kind of noticing it now the most people used to ask us, what's your favorite part of doing what you do for a living? And I would always say being on stage. You know, a, a song has three lives.
It's written, it's recorded, it's performed. And in those three lives, I do the first two steps to get to the third step. I hope the song's good. Sure. I hope it's honest and all that. And I hope it's recorded well because I really want it to go off live and I can't wait to sing this live. the keys, we would put the songs in would be based in, how I want it to feel when I'm singing it in front of people,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: would always say, my favorite part is writing the song. My favorite part is that, journal entry time, where there was nothing. And now there's words on a page and there's melody and there's song. I love that magic, you I think over the years I'm watching us maybe meet in the middle, [00:21:00] maybe.
Maybe the opposite. She would walk off stage this last tour just to the moon excited. Like, woo. Yeah. And I'd be like, when are we gonna write, when are we, when are we gonna, I wanna write songs and like we're, you know, just now we're writing for the musical. I'm like, can we, oh, what about let's just get a pre-course.
Let's just get a pre-course. No big goals. I was listening to what we did yesterday. We just need a little like four to eight bar thing here that I think could drive the story along better. And I find myself being thrilled the opposite of what I used to be thrilled by. And I still love playing.
Aaron: Hmm.
Abner: love, I got Outta the Funk on tour. It was awesome. it was the best tour we've ever done. Not on every metric, but on the way it felt on stage, the way people were singing. Our performance is the best performance it's been in 20 years. It's, you know, all that jazz. But man, I am loving the opposite of what I
Aaron: Yeah,
man. So kind of what you guys are getting at and and talk about therapy is like. Creating as a couple, you know, or just being in relationship with somebody. And a therapist has said this to me, like sometimes somebody's an island, sometimes somebody's a wave and you're moving together. You're moving apart.
And when you add creativity in that, as [00:22:00] we've experienced it, there's a lot of things to navigate.
So I would assume that you guys, there is times when you're both waves moving in the same direction and everything feels like it's levitating and there's times when your waves moving in opposite directions.
Do you guys have a way or
islands living apart,
or islands in different sides of the world? We've been islands, I've been an island off the coast of Maine, and she's been like near New Zealand. You know, it's like, how, how is it over there? how do you guys navigate that?
Amanda: it's the same
for sure, there's like it's less that we're into different things. It's more like our process is different we're realizing it more so I think with this musical than before, because before we could kind of meet in the middle and it was fine.
everything's kind of specific for the musical. So like he wants to go in and be like, I just wanna feel something and go with what I'm feeling. And it doesn't matter what I say, like I can figure out what I'm saying later. I can figure out where it goes later, but I just need to get something out.
And I am like, okay, that's great, but I need to know which character is talking, where they're gonna be on stage,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: Why are you saying this [00:23:00] need? What's, what's prompting this song to start need to the whole picture? And then that inspires me to like know what I'm writing.
Otherwise, it feels like there's too much.
Abner: And to me, I'm like, we're gonna walk into this room in London in a couple weeks. And six people are gonna tell us why they think this is wrong. Right? No matter what we do. So let me just get these feelings out and let's just do the thing. We're gonna have to change it anyway.
And so
Amanda: we find ourselves like, he'll sing something, you know, whatever. And I'll just look at him and he's like, you don't like it? And I'm like, well, I'm wondering why she's singing that or like, is that the right vibe for how she's feeling? And he's like, oh my God. So we, we've had that a lot.
And normally we just I mean, our biggest thing is just take a break. like
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: you're just so in it that you just take a break, take a break, have a snack. Those are our two main rules.
Aaron: Golden rules. Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda: all of marriage, like for most of our marriage, when we would get like feisty with one another.
And I would be like, why is he like in such a bad mood and being feisty with me? Because then you know, when one person's feisty and the other person's like, yeah, why are you being feisty?
Aaron: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Amanda: could always distill it to either me being tired. Or him being [00:24:00] hungry. And so now we kind of just like, that's our baseline of like, if somebody says something, we kind of look at each other.
Abner: I used to get so offended, she'd be like, you need a snack? I'm like, no, I don't. This is how
Aaron: Yeah.
Abner: and this is why I feel this way. And now she's like, you need a snack? I'm like yeah, yeah. Or she'll just
Amanda: look at me and be like, I need a snack. I'm sorry for everything that I'm saying. And I'm be like, I'm tired.
I'm sorry this is not me. You know? but honestly, just giving each other that grace, I think helps
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: I guess not drift as far apart
Aaron: I mean,
Amanda: for the islands we're on. Like, you're hungry over there.
May the
Aaron: yeah.
Amanda: you. Yeah. I think there's also like, when
Abner: you Yeah. with somebody in a creative sense, there's a sense of codependency that's very real.
Where like, I've seen a thousand times where I'm excited and it gets you excited. So let my excitement get you excited. Why is my excitement not getting you excited? What am I doing wrong? What are you doing wrong?
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Abner: about? I need to leave. You know? And it becomes, I, think to this analogy, really pertinent that sometimes your waves, sometimes you're an island, and that's okay.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I feel like,
Abner: No,
Michaela: oh.
Abner: talk the whole time. Oh, go
Amanda: ahead.
Michaela: Well, I was gonna ask how like, being [00:25:00] parents together has also influenced that because I feel like parenting I mean, we're three and a half years in and now navigating a second, and I feel like parenting continually teaches us how we wanna treat each
other
because we're like, oh, our kid is watching and even like when it's just the two of us, and obviously parenting can create so many more opportunities for tension and friction and
you're exhausted.
and you'll snap at each other in the middle of the night. I remember Carrie Ann and Michael from the band Shovels and Rope who are married and have two kids.
Carrie Ann told me that she was like, basically when our youngest turned four, I was like, I'm sorry for everything I ever said to you the last six years.
Like,
Amanda: I apologize.
Michaela: because that's like us in the middle of the night when our. Toddler wasn't sleeping. It's like, I'm sorry for Everything
Everything I said. Mm-hmm. But has that translated, helped you with navigating, working together? 'cause you guys parent together, live together create together businesses together and not just create music.
You guys had a TV show,
published a book.
[00:26:00] There's so many creative endeavors do you guys compartmentalize? Is like nothing off limits. do you guys have dates where you're like, we can't talk about anything.
Amanda: I mean, should, we probably should.
Abner: We, I think what's cool, I think the answer is yes. If it was yes or my question yes. It, it speaks to it. The tools we've learned creating art and business together have helped us in parenting and vice versa. And also weaknesses we find in one, we always, always, not often you find in the other, like if you find there's something here that's a rub.
like, oh yeah, that's also a rub here. The snack thing is just as pertinent in a songwriting session as it is raising your children. You know,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: you gotta, it's not gotta be rested or you're not gonna be yourself.
Aaron: Yeah.
Abner: able to trust that we're on the same team. I think so often it's us versus the world.
we're in London writing a musical for the very first time. It's very British show. The story exists, the IP exists. It's a famous British thing, and you got two brown Californian folks coming over to London to write the thing. not anymore. But at first it was very combative in a British way.
So passive aggressively,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: [00:27:00] it's, us versus the world. And what I'm getting to maybe is not a healthy point, but I'm getting there.
Amanda: Where are we going? Uh,
Abner: this is, this is where it's going. Is that even with the kids, it's been us versus the kids sometimes. True.
Aaron: No, I hear you. I hear that.
Abner: we got each other's back.
You don't talk to your mom like that. That's my wife.
Amanda: but I do think you know, when we are stressed out. It's like I notice it in the kids so quickly. Yeah. Because I notice them mimicking how I am talking, you know, like if
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: and I'm like, okay, that's fine. Okay, just gimme your thing. Then they start be like, okay mom, let's, each
Abner: other They'll start doing it each other.
Yeah. Each they'll start doing
Amanda: it to Yeah. and we'll kind of look at each other and be like, yikes. Okay. We need to slow down how we're talking. We need, you know,
Abner: there's this brain guy that we heard once, I don't know what I would give you the technical term of what he did.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: not a surgeon, but like a stu of the brain and like the neuro pathways and all this stuff.
And he said the question he gets the most from parents is, how do I train my child that's in preschool or elementary school or whatever? What's something I can implement now that will help them get into Ivy League school to get the best education, to try their hardest to be determined and have a [00:28:00] fulfilling absolutely ultimately a great life.
What can I do now? And he says the answer's always the same and, usually not quite what they're looking for or what they're hoping, I would say they're hoping for a protocol. And it is, he said, go home and love your spouse. Well, Period. That is the number one healthiest, most efficient way to help a human develop into the best version of themselves is to go home and love your spouse.
Well. that, uh, something that lives rent free in my head, for sure.
Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Michaela: Well, of the time. Yeah, exactly. 85.
well it's also like the way that kids are mirrors whether intentionally or not is really incredible. The other day I was like trying to get our daughter ready for school, and I was like, tired. 'cause we have an infant and not sleeping. and I didn't even notice, like I didn't feel mad.
I was just like speaking
quickly and shortly, like, come on, get your shirt on, come
on, let's go.
And she stopped and she looked at me and she goes, mommy, are you frustrated?
Amanda: oh. And you're Mm. I'm just exhausted. Yeah. And I,
[00:29:00] Don't talk to me like that.
Michaela: I'll show you frustrated, but I,
I stopped and I was like, oh, no, I'm
not. I'm so sorry that it sound, it did sound like I
was, I, think I'm just rushing. And I was like, I'm so sorry, I'm, I'm not frustrated. Thank you for asking
me.
And she was like, okay.
I'm like, Ugh. but they pick up on everything, you
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Amanda: so it's like, you start noticing in their behavior. I will say
Abner: I think especially when you're touring a lot, and we're not home. His mom and sister are wonderful and they watch the kids when we're gone, but it's still like a lot of back and forth. And so we're always trying to like create space and grace for them. And I think the other thing that they reflect from seeing us is, the lack of ego.
Amanda: You know, if we can just be like the same thing, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that I'm coming across frustrated. I'm just really tired, or I am frustrated. I'm frustrated because of this, but that's not your fault. You know, like being able
Aaron: Yeah.
Amanda: it and I was raised not that way. I was raised in a very much like, because I said so, and my parents were great, like they weren't harsh parents in any way.
But it was [00:30:00] definitely just like the old school, like different
Abner: generation. I said,
Amanda: do this, go do this. like now my dad would apologize, but like when I was a kid, he wasn't gonna be like, I'm so sorry that I got upset. You know? Like, it would be like, well you made me upset because you didn't listen.
You know? Yeah. And I
Aaron: Yep.
Amanda: you know, now we're kind of seeing the fruits of it with our 10 year olds because he is like a gem of a human. Yeah. there was, he's better
Abner: than us.
Amanda: Yeah.
Michaela: Yeah. Absolutely.
Amanda: we got off on that, but Yeah.
Yeah. You know what, so the answer to your
Michaela: No, I love,
Amanda: Yeah. Took
Michaela: I mean, we, we always say that like, inadvertently, but this becomes a parenting podcast
but it is all tied together,
Aaron: you guys are, further down this path than we are.
the amount of creativity that you need to use every day as a parent like they will out, will you. Their willpower is so strong, but you have to be like, okay, like what story can we make
up? How can we get this person to do what needs to happen
in the next five minutes to get out the door?
Michaela: Yeah.
Yeah. I think as a songwriter, as a creative person, when you're able to operate with curiosity, when we're writing a song today, we're writing a song. There was a chord of a melody that I liked [00:31:00] that she wasn't super into, but she was curious about it, and she found a different way to navigate this little melodic thing, and it's way better.
Abner: And we were both able to look at it with, not determination, but curiosity. And I think you're at your best as a creative when you're looking at with curiosity, and I think you're at your best as a parent when you're able to parent with curiosity,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: acting like that.
Not because you're a bad kid, not because you're whatever. Not because I made some mistakes over the last couple years. Why? What's up?
Amanda: Yeah. You all right? always turned it into, how can I help you? if our kids are acting crazy, instead of being like, what's wrong with you?
Like, what are you doing? Okay, how can I help you? Do you need a snack? Okay. Not always, but
Abner: we always shoot for that.
Amanda: That's, that. Yeah. definitely don't always do it. We always, this is our, what we
Michaela: Yeah. You're ideal, I heard. yeah.
Aaron: Yeah.
Amanda: can I help you? Because it reminds you that you are the grownup and they're the kid and they need help a lot,
Michaela: Well on the parenting thing, so all the different things that you guys are juggling business endeavors that are dependent on your creativity. Musical, the book you did, the records, how organized and what's your kind of like daily life like if you're not on tour, [00:32:00] and how intentional are you about your schedule and how communicative do you need to be with each other, plotting out each week.
Amanda: I generally handle like kids, schedule stuff is so like, usually the day before, he'll go, what's tomorrow? And I say, this is what we have tomorrow. Normally when we come off tour, it's so great because we just like invite people over once we're ready to like see everybody and we cook and it's like a refilling creative time.
Like usually he'll start baking and 'cause there is that like dopamine dropout at the end of tour where you go,
Michaela: For sure.
Amanda: was fun. It was like being on Instagram or TikTok. It's like every day is fun. Every day is a new city, a new coffee shop, a friend to something, and then you get home and there's this like drop off of, oh yeah, I have to do laundry and like.
Get the groceries and like the trash needs to go out. And it's like back to the mundane. So a while, you know, years ago he started baking, whenever we'd get off tour, he'd start like making croissants for people and we'd have people over and, just cook and kind of refill the stores, you know, properly.
Now because we have this project that we have, this is like the first time we've had to like, dive directly back into a [00:33:00] project
Abner: we gave ourselves one day. Yeah. And we didn't even mean to, we Mm-hmm. down to write and we were like, Nope. And we're like, there's so much stuff that we need to do, and our brain we're
Amanda: like, not there.
But yeah. So normally, it's pretty casual. Like if we have a deadline, then we're like, okay, we have to work. We have a deadline. But generally, you If we have an album or something that we're just like, wanna have writing time, we'll just kind of go, oh, let's like, set aside some time.
'cause we can like, fill up a day like nobody's business. Like
Michaela: Oh yeah.
Amanda: off, get a workout in, take a shower, make lunch, maybe go see a friend. Favorite
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: go run some errands and then it's time for the kids to get picked up and dinner to start. And like, there was your day, you know, and you kind
Michaela: Yep.
Amanda: you were productive, but like, not necessarily creatively productive.
we, do try to like, set aside to be creatively productive or to like curious or also like, give ourselves space to like, get poured into I'm gonna go to the park put on an album or bring a book and just like, let my nervous system settle down and like, just see what speaks to me.
Because so much of creativity is listening and [00:34:00] letting go. You know, it's like, let me take something in, let me listen. And then also not feeling like. There's not like an end to your creativity. Like there might be blocks or seasons where you don't feel as creative, you know, we try to look at it like a river instead of a lake.
You know, like, yeah, sometimes the river's gonna be dry, but the river's gonna come back. You know what I mean? And it's
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: the more you kind of feel like you have to fight with it, the less creative you're gonna be. Yeah. And I
Abner: don't see it as, our creativity. I don't think I own my creativity.
Right. I think we're conduits
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: something passes, so we set, you know, deadlines are great for us, especially for me because I'll float and you know, have a couple melodies or a couple things that don't ever get finished,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: or a purpose for them. And then I get excited.
It triggers a different thing. Once there's a deadline it's like, alright, yeah, I got this thing. I can see this through another's joy in the completion, not just in the beginning stages.
Yeah, stop talking Captain.
Amanda: I was gonna say, you know, I think there is something though that, like I've found in myself since becoming a parent, which I struggle with and I continue to struggle with, and that is creating space for that [00:35:00] sense of like wonder and child likeness, which I feel like I really was really good at before I had kids.
Like I could just sit in a field and look at flowers and like just let my mind wander and daydream and like, you know, if anything I was like, man, I'm so lazy. Like, I just spent the whole afternoon just staring at a tree
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: I wish I could spend the whole afternoon staring at a tree.
And I wish I
Michaela: Yeah.
Amanda: space for that because Right. I feel like I'm just addicted to like a certain level of cortisol of like. You know, if I sit down, it's like immediate guilt. Yeah.
Abner: It feels Mm-hmm.
Amanda: feels irresponsible if I'm not doing something at any given time.
And then, you know, when you're not doing something, it's like so easy to be like, let me get on my phone and like, Just like waste the time. But to like
Amanda: create time for curiosity. I think I've been like kind of forcing myself to take more baths because I don't bring my phone and I just like will have some books of poetry and I'll put some music on, but I need time to. Let my mind do whatever the heck it wants. Yeah. I
Abner: think the discipline we've developed over years together working creatively hasn't been so much as putting in the calendar, [00:36:00] writing time trying to create an environment where Yes. The creative work gets refilled. That's right.
There's space for the filling to happen and there's space for the pouring out to happen.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Abner: there's calendar that has to be involved, but often it's creating a culture that changes and gets modified depending on the work you're doing, what needs to be done, depending on how many kids you got, depending on what season of the year it literally is.
It changes. But ultimately the thing that stays the same is creating space to receive and space to, pour out.
Aaron: Yeah.
Abner: things consciously happen, the deadlines become easy the work's never easy, but the work sort of take care of itself.
Aaron: Oh, I love that. I get the image of like, having a garden, you
know, it's like the plants are gonna come and go, but if you take care of the soil, the plants will come and go.
Abner: that's a bar. That's good.
Aaron: Mm.
Michaela: I relate to that of when you have kids, it's like, okay, if they're in school or if they're in a school or daycare that you're paying for, you're
like, oh my God, these are hours
that I have. not? What do I want to do with them? What do I
need to do and should, And it's like. Now I feel guilty if I use [00:37:00] that time to like hang out with a friend
when I should be like doing work or whatever.
Michaela: when really taking that time to
hang out with a friend might help generate the energy to be more efficient with the work.
It's so hard to kind of prioritize when you have this limited amount of
time
of what actually should be done. And sometimes it really is just like, look at the grass.
Amanda: Yeah. It really, it really is, and, it's true. It's like, it becomes a stressor. To do other things than what you should be doing because you feel like the time is slipping away from me. You know?
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: And that doesn't spa creativity either.
Abner: when I think of a river versus a lake, or even just a pond. Like I grew up with a lot of ponds around me in Jacksonville, Florida. Mm. There's all swamps, swampy. It really was, it was super swampy. And there's always like this kind of layer of silt that sits on it and like weirdness and, you know, a little more freaked out if a fish nibbles on my leg in a pond than
Aaron: Yeah.
Abner: When a river, there's this sense of freshness. There's this of wonder even, and curiosity. Like, oh, what's around the bend? Where are [00:38:00] we going? You know? And I really think Like western brain of creativity and especially when it's, art for commerce. I must sell my art to make money and pay my bills that must get paid.
I wrote some homeless. easy to become a pond. It's easy to think that everything's here and I just need to go do it. And I just need to go make the art, go make the art, go make the thing. And then you really become like this it becomes this swampy thing that what you're creating isn't as curious and it's not much different than what you did last time.
It's not much different than what you did 10 years ago, even. And sure there's similarities, but when you, when you imagine, okay, what I need will come to me, what I need will come to me, I gotta make sure the source is still there
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Abner: that literally can mean staring at the grass
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Abner: too far and stare at the grass too much or whatever.
whatever that is. But man, if I wouldn't rather air on that side because I feel like we're all trained to air on the other or just do the thing. Here it
Michaela: Yeah. I like this swampy pond versus river metaphor. I think that's really good. Mm-hmm.
Amanda: I got one. I feel like also feel like also it is different for men I think.
Michaela: Uhhuh. what I notice is [00:39:00] like, you don't know me, is like he can write a song with the kids screaming around him. if he's inspired, kids can be all around and making noise and he can, zero in, he can sit there and like read a whole book in the living room with kids running around and dinner being made and dog and whatever else.
Amanda: And like there is literally not a chance I would last two minutes, like I
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: last two minutes. You know? Like I'd be
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: like my brain would just feel like it was gonna explode. And so sometimes I'm kind of am like is that a DHD hyper fixation or is that like some sort of male innate ability to shut everything else off?
Where like my brain goes, must take care of children. So I must be aware at all times. Let's
Abner: just think it's beautiful. We need a scientist, we Yeah. scientist to come explain. Think it's something really sexy about me. Yeah, Well.
sexy.
Amanda: sexy. Also. Very stressful. No, like I get stressed out, like he's reading and I'm like, how are you doing this?
And he is like, I'm fine. I'm like, but how are you doing this?
Michaela: Yeah. I don't, think Aaron's like that though. 'cause I feel like you get overstimulated
Aaron: I get overstimulated, but we're also like we're not my studio right now, which is 40 feet behind the [00:40:00] house.
So when it's time for me to create I'm You know?
Amanda: Yeah. That's nice.
Michaela: Yeah.
Um, we're, we're,
Amanda: Wow. That sounds
Michaela: we're nearing the end and we, always close with one question, butAbner. You said something earlier about the balloon where you said you stopped and thought, do I even want to refill this balloon? And I was thinking about like, 'cause we always separate, you know, our creative work from our, business work that is dependent on creativity. But that is a really real question you know, we had Edwin McCain on here. He had the big pop hit in the nineties, alb
and
Michaela: Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he's so great guy. He's so wonderful. And he talks about how he intentionally spent a long time not making new records, just going out there pretty minimally to like, make enough money and play shows and play the hits and that was like a very intentional, in my interpretation.
I'm not going to really try and refill this balloon. I'm just
[00:41:00] gonna do what I need to do to maintain, because he said he was really prioritizing his family
life and being home. are those conversations
you guys have Oh my
Abner: God.
Aaron: No, there,
like, there really is a stigma around, around that though.
There is for sure.
You know, of like, oh, oh, well, he kind of gave up for a little bit. Yeah,
Abner: Yeah.
show host that hosts a game show. I won't say his name, but it's obvious.
And, uh, that commercial break, he'll do like these speeches to the audience and he, he gives similar ones. Like, he's trying to be a, motivational speaker during commercial breaks. And he's like, you think billionaires sleep eight hours a night? You sleep too much. You da da. And he is like, guilt tripping.
Everybody reminds me of a
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Abner: got no good thing in you. But Jesus, there's nothing like, what kind of person am I gonna be if that's what I'm eating? If that's the meal I'm being served every day. What, what am I gonna be, I'm gonna yell at my kids the same way, even if it's not about trying to be a good person.
I just know that that's acceptable way to talk, an acceptable way to think. I'm not working hard enough. I'm, I'm getting stressed out, thinking about thinking that way. You
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Abner: I feel like the [00:42:00] modern western mentality is that you have a dream. There's this singular focus and you must devote everything you have because we have this great land of opportunity.
And it is a great land of opportunity. And one way you can use it is to have laser focus to only accomplish the one thing you ever wanna do. You sleep too much, do more towards the thing. And that's just exhausting. And it's not worth filling up a balloon like that to me. It used to be I'm a kid with revolution in his blood.
my grandfather was assassinated, my dad was ran out of a country. I sing songs. But there's still
that lineage lives in me, that energy lives in me. And I think, I spent so many years thinking that's the only way to accomplish a thing, is to be so hyper fixated on a goal that I'm going to, no, I'm not gonna get a job now.
I think the answer would be different. I'm not gonna get a job. 'cause we're gonna make records and we're gonna sell records and we're gonna sell out shows and we're gonna whatever. And that just sounds exhausting now. And honestly, more than exhausting, it sounds unfulfilling.
Aaron: Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Abner: the point of being a billionaire if you don't sleep eight hours a day?
Michaela: Mm-hmm. be a billionaire so I can sleep 14. Like, I don't know what the deal, you Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Abner: What are [00:43:00] we really, really, really doing? And I, I heard this speech once it was a commencement speech at a university and it was like a Swedish dude. And he was like, there's this very Western American mentality that you must have a dream.
I'm here to tell you don't have a dream. And don't chase it. you know, it's a pretty big statement to come out the gate with. Feels like I, I can maybe have 20 things wrong with that, that I disagree with. And he is like, when you fixate on one thing and that the only way to accomplish that thing is to sacrifice everything around you.
One, you're sacrificing things around you. You're sacrificing things of value, relationships, love, home, patience, peace, you're sacrificing your peace, which that really hit home with me.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Abner: of blowing up this balloon of career is at the sacrifice of peace.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Oh.
Abner: any peace, it's too much effort.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.
Abner: that happens is when you're fixated on this, you'll never see the things in the periphery that could bring you just as much joy, just as much purpose and just as much whatever your value is that you're doing this all for anyway,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: to that, but you'll miss it because you're focused on the only way that you think you could ever succeed.
And you title it your [00:44:00] dream.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Abner: that's what it becomes. It becomes my linear, singular version of success on my storyline. My storyline must include this thing. whole life was probably wasted. I think COVID was a big part of it. I think stopping it, went through a mental health journey where I realized what I was calling my post tour blues was really depression.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Abner: 300 days a year and I wouldn't know what to do when I got home
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: COVID, this is a true story. I was pretty sad. And I had this hat I used to wear every show, it still to this day is actually now it's at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
That's kind of cool. Uh, It's on the wall, by the bed. And one night months into COVID, like, babe, this is gonna sound weird. I'm standing there in my boxers. I put my hat on. like, can you just clap for me for a second?
Amanda: I was like, you did great today, babe. You're awesome, dad, breakfast you made.
Awesome. Great,
Aaron: Yeah.
Amanda: And I took a bow
Michaela: Mm-hmm. up and I slept like a baby. It really like affected my Yeah.
Abner: and it's hilarious, but it was weirdly like, accurate. Like something
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: okay. I've been at that point 15, 16 years into this thing, just [00:45:00] so fixated on what success looks like for me.
And I think that feeling I had this tour do I even have the energy? Do I even want to fill this balloon back up? Do I wanna rebuild or, continue to grow this thing? I think the question was really posing to myself, and I think the reality that I'm, coming to is that looks different than it used to.
and it's maybe always meant a different thing. I thought the way I was gonna be happy was these accomplishments. What I want is to be happy.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: is contentment. And I set these, benchmarks as what that were absolutely necessary for my happiness. And what I'm realizing now is I don't need those benchmarks to be happy.
will not sacrifice my peace. I will not sacrifice my family. these things won't happen. now my eyes are open and now we're writing a musical. I never thought, I didn't even like musical theater as a kid. Please don't hold that against me universe. Um, Like I
Michaela: like, oh, shit, I just said that out loud.
Abner: and now it's like a passion that I didn't know I had.
And we're, casting these actors to come in for workshop. And it's just this beautiful, [00:46:00] I feel like I'm living a whole new life,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: new balloon, a whole new
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: I'm so satisfied. I'm so happy. And it's not the way I thought it was. I'm gonna end with this on this question 'cause I could talk for an hour on it.
I think there's a little bit of a sense of mourning that my 18-year-old self has to let
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: has to let a thing die that he thought his whole life was hinged to.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: and it looked like selling out arenas and stadiums. ask me all the time, are you ever surprised by your level of success?
I'm like, I'm surprised. It's not more actually
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: we're playing clubs. Sorry, I thought we were bigger than this.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Abner: this 18-year-old admirer that's still here is slowly but surely allowing a thing to die in order to hold more happiness,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: hold something of much more value.
Aaron: I mean,
there's just much there that just like resonates I think with, both of us and where we're at too. This realization of there is more and it's not a sacrifice to admit and own that
there is more [00:47:00] beyond this. Or a failure.
Amanda: there was a, uh, woman that I saw speaking, okay, it's a TikTok, but
Abner: you did see her speaking. I did see her
Amanda: speak. Um, But she was a neuroscientist and she was saying how she teaches people to manifest. And she's like, you know, manifest is like the big word, blah, blah, blah.
But she's like, this is how I teach people. I have them write down the things that they want most in life. I want a new house. I want this career. I want this, husband, or I want whatever, all the things that you want. And then she go, has them go underneath that and say how they imagine they're gonna feel when they have.
Those things. And then once they have that, she goes, okay, where in your life now do you feel these things? And she has them point out the places where they feel those things. and then encourage them to continue to point out those places where you feel those things. Because to Abner's point, you don't want the thing, you want the feeling, you
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amanda: and so where else in your life do you have the feeling? And just like, if you say, oh, I'm gonna start, try to notice red cars. And all of a sudden you see red cars everywhere, that whole phenomenon in the same way all of a sudden when you tell your brain, notice, where I feel [00:48:00] freedom.
Notice where I feel like peace. Notice where I feel these things. Then your brain starts noticing and all of a sudden you're like, my life is so full of these things already. Yeah. she's like, that's my way of how I teach people to manifest. And I think that's kind of like similar to what
Aaron: Yeah.
Amanda: No, I liked yours. You're just
Aaron: No,
Amanda: Mine was like science from TikTok, no less
Abner: LOL.
Michaela: needed both of them. Yeah, I mean, I, I definitely, this has felt like therapy for me 'cause I'm like, I needed to hear these things today. Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. So,
Aaron: yeah. that actually leads like, really, well into how we like to kind of wrap up these conversations, which is. kind of choose your own adventure, and I'd love to hear from each of you on this of it's either something that somebody has said to you along the way that still resonates with
you,
or something that you would tell younger you that's just getting started.
Amanda: I have two that I'm, rolling around in my
Aaron: Do it.
Amanda: So the two things that I think roll around in my head the most is one. When we played Leno, it was like one of our first big like national TV [00:49:00] things, and Ricky Minor was the md and I remember afterwards I was kind of like, not upset, but I was like, I didn't do as good as I thought I should do.
You know, like I messed up this one thing. Like normally I sing this part better, you know, there was just like, I was nitpicking. It was like, it was fine, the performance was fine, but I was nitpicking a little bit and he just said, I've never had a perfect performance. But I've had still, Ricky
Abner: Minor used to play with Michael Jackson, the E street band, like he's Mm.
Amanda: he said, I've never had a perfect performance, but I've had a lot of great moments and all you need to do right now is focus on the great moments and every show, just focus on the great moments. which is great because it diffused the perfectionist in me that made me feel, you know, watching, I grew up in a, a musician household and so I was kind of trained to like, that person's outta tune.
This person's saying that wrong, this per, you know, like I
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Amanda: for it and so on myself, I was always like so hard on myself that I didn't give myself the freedom to really like, enjoy performing. And I think that's probably why I used to not really enjoy it. And now I'm like, this is so much fun because I, I've learned that lesson I think over time.
Abner: I'm gonna take your second one. Your mom.
Amanda: Yeah.
Abner: Yeah. 'cause that's the one that comes from me.
Amanda: Okay.
Abner: for me, something somebody said [00:50:00] that stuck with me is her mother. her mom, huge Disco diva Donna Summer, legendary will live on forever. She was in New York, I think, releasing a new album.
We were in New York 'cause we had a show in Connecticut we were staying at their hotel. We had sold 13, 14 tickets to this little black box theater in Connecticut. And the night before Donna had an event celebrating the album, we're all standing in this big hotel suite on the Upper East Side. And her mom's like, we're gonna drive you to Connecticut tomorrow.
We're gonna drive you to Connecticut. And Amanda was like, absolutely not mom. It's gonna be embarrassed. There's 14 tickets sold. And we're not, nobody's coming up to the door to buy more tickets. It's gonna be 14 people and you and dad, it's just so embarrassing. Why would you come to that?
And she's like, no, we're gonna come. And you know, they were just kinda wrestling about it for a second. And Donna, fine. I said, Amanda, listen, one day there's gonna be bigger rooms. you're not gonna be able to drive in a van. You're gonna have to take a bus. You're gonna have to fly. I mean, the rooms will always get bigger, but I wanna be here for this.
You never get this back. These are the good old days.
Aaron: Hmm.
Abner: she said, these are the good old days. Something in, in Amanda for sure, me melted. It was amazing. And they drove us up and they sat in the back and they cheered us on and they were the first [00:51:00] ones to put money in a tip bucket, thank God.
And uh, idea that these are the good old days to stop striving. I think that's ultimately, man if my autobiography was written right now, the titles stop striving. Stop trying so hard,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Abner: stop trying so hard. These are the good old days. And that's always, uh, stuck with me. And it's, hard to continue to believe it, for it still
Michaela: Yeah.
Abner: good old days.
Yeah.
Aaron: Mm.
Yeah. with family. Like it resonates with us, with our kids. I mean, there's so many mornings where we're like, oh my gosh, in like three years, I think they'll be able to get themselves ready for school. And like, we can
Mm-hmm.
Amanda: and they're not gonna jump on our heads and blah, blah, blah.
And then we're like, if you were 85 and like fairy came and said, you get to go back to being 42 and your kids coming running in the morning. We would take that in a heartbeat. In a heartbeat.
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Amanda: 85-year-old. Our daughter jumped in our bed
Abner: and fell asleep this morning. It was awesome.
Amanda: Yeah. And so in the same way.
we try to look at each other when things are chaotic and we're like, oh my God, we're so tired. And these kids, I just got punched in the face with a small foot and you know,
Michaela: Yeah.
Abner: these are the good old days. These are the good
Amanda: old days.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: I love that our three and a [00:52:00] half year old, when she cries, our infant will cry. He's
like, and he has full empath and he has,
Aaron: you know, when you google, infant pout
face his, it'll be his face, like his, his bottom
Michaela: lip is huge and it just folds out.
And so she also like, knows that she can do it and she like, will egg
him on, but
like, she was fully in a tantrum or upset about something. you know, the like big mellowed, dramatic like mommy
yelling. And then he starts in and he's screaming with the big pow and it was so overwhelming.
And Aaron and I just looked at each other and just started laughing. We were
like, we were like.
This is, this is it. We made this
Aaron: choice. This is a choice we made.
Amanda: Who's richer than us? We, for
Abner: this. Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Who's richer than us? Another friend of ours, a chef, one of the reasons he's a chef is his mom would've people around the table and she'd cook for everybody.
Abner: That good pasta, the red sauce Italian dude from Brooklyn. she'd look around at this little apartment with all their friends and family around the table. She goes, who's richer than us?
Aaron: [00:53:00] Uh, I love
Michaela: that.
Yes.
Amanda: thing we say when things are falling apart, but the kids are cute.
Who's, you know what, who's richer than us
Aaron: Yes. Uh, man, man,
Amanda Abner. I know, I know, right? It flew by. I know. There's so
Michaela: many more things. I'm like, we could talk for 10 hours or we'll just have to get together sometime in real life.
Amanda: that throughout this. I was like,
Michaela: Yes.
Amanda: be in
Abner: Nashville soon. Let's go get a Let let us know. Yeah, please
Michaela: do. Definitely.
Amanda: your, I'll be your baby holder so I can
Michaela: Y
Aaron: deal. We got you. He's
Michaela: a good one.
Amanda: Yeah, both of 'em.
Michaela: Yeah.
Amanda: The littles.
Aaron: it's one of my favorite things about having these conversations. It's like, I can really like some of these music and then we have a conversation with them. It's like, ah, I like it even more. Yeah. So
good people making good music. There's not much better than
that, so, yeah. Yeah.
Amanda: you guys so much.
Aaron: Thank you too. Thank you. Good luck with everything. We'll catch you guys soon.
Amanda: Bye.
[00:54:00]