Josh Radnor is an actor, director, writer, singer/songwriter best known as Ted Mosby from the TV show 'How I Met Your Mother'. In addition to 9 seasons of the hit show, he has written and directed multiple films, appeared on Broadway, released multiple solo records of original music, and has a duo with Australian singer/songwriter Ben Lee. We talk to Josh about giving yourself permission to believe in yourself, checking your internal weather and seasons, ayahuasca, the complications and complexities of fame, undervaluing ease, and a whole lot more.
Josh Radnor is an actor, director, writer, singer/songwriter best known as Ted Mosby from the TV show 'How I Met Your Mother'. In addition to 9 seasons of the hit show, he has written and directed multiple films, appeared on Broadway, released multiple solo records of original music, and has a duo with Australian singer/songwriter Ben Lee. We talk to Josh about giving yourself permission to believe in yourself, checking your internal weather and seasons, ayahuasca, the complications and complexities of fame, undervaluing ease, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. We are on episode 1 25, and this week we're featuring our conversation with Josh Radnor.
Aaron: Josh Radner is an actor, a writer, a director, a songwriter, a musician from Columbus, Ohio. He has starred in Broadway plays. He has written and released records with Australian artist Ben Lee. I the name of their band is called Radner and Lee. He's also released a handful of solo records, and as he says here, he's putting on a solo record He's also probably most widely known as the star of the Hit TV show. How I Met Your Mother.
Michaela: Josh obviously has a wide. Breadth of creative career [00:01:00] paths and creative endeavors. Mm-hmm. So it was really fun to get, to dig in on what he's learned over the years, not staying in any one particular lane and diversifying.
We talked a lot about the permission we have to give ourselves to believe in yourself. Mm-hmm. Um, The difference between that and being arrogant. we talked about the trappings of fame and success and how to reconnect to your creative source and the existential crisis that can come with all of that stuff.
Aaron: as Josh puts out here, like nobody wants to hear a famous person say like, man, this is hard. It really sucks. Which is funny. It's something that Glen Phillips shared of toed, the We Sprocket. Yeah. shared the same thing back about a hundred episodes ago in episode 45.
Michaela: Yeah. And he also really kept going back to thinking of making art as a generous act instead of an egoic self-seeking fulfillment, um. Selfish act that making art is a gift to ourselves and therefore each other.
Aaron: Yeah, it was really beautiful. And you'll hear in here, Michaela played a handful of shows with [00:02:00] Josh back in the spring.
So there's a lot of, community and shared history here, that we pepper in throughout the conversation. Because if you've listened to one of our shows before, you know, we like community and part of our community is, our friends over at the bluegrass situation. and we're really psyched that they shared with us a new podcast that they're putting out over there called Finding Lucinda.
It follows singer songwriter Isme while they trace the roots of their musical hero and one of our musical heroes. Lucinda Williams ISME takes a road trip from Texas to Louisiana and here in Tennessee to meet Lucinda's early collaborators. Dig through Family archives, visit places Lucinda got her start.
And the show features Conversations with Charlie Sexton, buddy Miller one of our favorite previous guests, Mary Gaucher. And it is available probably where you're listening to this podcast and in all places through the bluegrass situation. so keep an eye out for finding Lucinda film, which is coming out in the fall of 2025 as well.
It's pretty rad.
Michaela: Yeah, we love. Everyone over at the bluegrass [00:03:00] situation and their podcast network. And extending that sense of community. One of the ways that you can be a deeper part of our community is by joining our Patreon. It is the only way to financially support this podcast, which even a small endeavor like this has a financial cost.
Mm-hmm. And we greatly appreciate any support to offset that expense. And some of the topics we touched on today came from suggestions from our subscribers who all get early access to who our upcoming guests are and have a chance to submit their own questions. So head on over there, click on the Patreon link and join us.
Aaron: And going further, if you are a visual person and you would like to watch Mikayla and I have these conversations with our guests all of this is available on YouTube as well. where we also have playlists, the group topics together that we talk about, so that way you can find other conversations we have.
There are 124 other of these. But anyway, without further ado, here is our conversation with Josh Radner.
Michaela: Hi, Josh.
Josh: Hey, Mikayla. Hi. How are you [00:04:00] guys?
Michaela: We're good. How are you doing?
Josh: I'm doing okay. I feel like, um, you know, those days where you feel like your life is just a step ahead of you and you're kind of like trying to catch up to it.
You, you guys have children. You don't know anything about that, but you know
what I mean? Like, I feel a little bit like I am just trying to catch up with it.
Aaron: my analogy is like when you're running downhill and you're like, I don't really know if my legs can move this fast, but they are, and if I stop to think about it another second, I'm just going to eat shit.
Josh: This feels a little more like walking uphill rather than downhill.
Michaela: Well,
that's when I fully assumed yesterday when you exclaimed my text to you when I was like, see you tomorrow.
And then you put exclamation points and I was like, does this mean you didn't know that we're seeing each other
Josh: Look, it was a reasonable question. delightful news. I
didn't know I'd be seeing you.
Michaela: Sometimes I like to pull a little behind the curtain of like sharing how sometimes I book guests and with you, even though we toured together, we were like in text conversation. I went around you and did email your
Josh: It was so [00:05:00] smart. It was so smart. It was, it talked to my enormous team to get to get me booked.
Michaela: I was like, can you get Josh? I know I'm not harassing him. I believe him that he wants to do this, but I feel like he might just be a little busy.
Josh: Yeah.
Aaron: and even further transparency, I will say that. you guys were on tour together, his manager texted me to tell you something. Oh, yeah. So it's all good.
It's true. It goes both directions.
Josh: Life is just one big game of telephone and who knows if we're getting the original message.
Michaela: exactly. Exactly.
Josh: Yeah,
Michaela: well, we're excited to have you on and have so many things to talk about with you. but we often like to start with just, how are you today? are you physically and also creatively.
Josh: so my wife makes a distinction. She says, how are you? And then she'll say, how are you really?
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Josh: Are you asking the latter?
Yes. Okay. I figured you know, I've recently gotten back in the habit of working out like pretty hard at least three times a
week. [00:06:00] because of long weekend we went to, you know, this little dinky gym over the weekend, but I haven't been able to like do the thing I've been doing
I hate that this is a truth.
It's so startling how different my mood is when I get that workout in versus not.
And I think you don't realize that until you get older, because I think like when you're younger, I had actually had a doctor tell me when you're younger you're, always looking for ways to throw off energy because you have so much of it.
And when you get older, you look for ways to conserve energy.
And it's kind of
counterintuitive. But when I do those workouts, I actually feel like I, have more gas in the tank it's not as much about my physical energy, although that's a wonderful benefit. It's literally like my mind is more defended against the dark looping thoughts that tell me whatever it tells me that day.
Like, you know, I Haven't done this. I'm not successful enough. I should have done this. you know, why didn't I do that? the road's not taken. Like whatever my prosecutor mind spits up that day when I get that workout in, I feel much better defended against those voices. So [00:07:00] I'm working out at five today.
I have it booked. I'm
like ready to go, but I'm, feeling that kind of dip. Otherwise my wife is good, my dog is good. The apartment looks wonderful. I sold my house in la I don't know if I told you that, Mikayla, but
it had been long and coming and it was very emotional.
I went to LA and my sister, God bless her, Melanie, my older sister who loves swooping in like Mary Poppins and like helping out in that way.
She just was with me for three days, going through 20 years of my life. And I shed maybe 80% of it. And
my
new favorite company, just to shout out 1-800-GOT-JUNK, which is an incredible company that you call and you just back a truck up in your driveway they just take away everything.
Um, they they do different things with it. Some
of it they repurpose, some of it they sell, some of it they recycle. I had documents that I asked them to shred. Hopefully they did that. Um,
Michaela: That's
Josh: I'm in big, big trouble if they
didn't. Yeah.
but that was, [00:08:00] house that's in your song
No. That's the other house.
that I have, which is a long story, but that house is the one that has the lawsuit on it.
This house was the one I moved into to get away from those people. But I realized that that song, real Good House, in some ways, I feel much more emotionally attached to this house I just sold. And I was going through the lyrics and I said, oh, it's actually in some ways is more applicable to this house, although it's applicable to any house love and, and
are sad to leave. Yeah.
Michaela: And where are you creatively?
Josh: Where am I creatively? I just finished my album,
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Congrats.
Josh: yeah, it's almost fully mixed. I've just got a, like a couple little tweaks, you know, when you're walking around listening to it in headphones and you're like, they're so small, the little tweaks, but you know, that you have to make the changes where it will haunt
you for the rest of your days.
So I, have a couple of little tweaks and changes that I'm gonna implement, but otherwise feel really good about the record. I don't know if I have the bandwidth to like hit the [00:09:00] road again immediately, so I have to map out a release plan. I
don't know what I'm gonna do yet. My friend Jeremiah Dunlap, who, you guys are in Nashville,
right?
Okay. He's now living in la. He's the one who's living in the real good house, but he, um, was one of the producers of eulogy volume one. He's a straight up genius, I think. But I asked him to do a remix of my song learning, and he did four remixes of two of the songs. So he did two of learning, two of NYC.
And And I was so impressed with them that we're gonna release them, like just a four song EP of these remixes. So that's really exciting. I've got some screenwriting projects that are mean, the incubation period for this stuff is so long, you know, to get movies made, and then just acting work as it comes up.
And I feel either inspired or not, mostly it's been not lately.
but I've, diversified my life enough. love the premise of your guys' show because when I got out of grad school in 1999, I worked for a couple months. Then I hit my first patch [00:10:00] of unemployment. I was like oh.
people don't leave. Stop acting because acting's hard. Even though acting is incredibly hard, they leave acting because not acting is very hard. Like Not doing it
is really psychologically taxing if you've trained to do it. So I started writing because I wanted to wake up every morning and not have to wait for a call and not have to be called off the bench to do the thing I wanted to do.
I just wanted to like tell stories and be creative. So all these many years later, I've diversified into, screenwriting. I write songs, I do essays. anything that I can do that gives me a day of creative fulfillment that is in my control is really important to me.
I just have this funky, strange career that's I approach it all from a lot of different angles.
All of it I think of as under the umbrella of storytelling.
Sometimes it's a three minute story in the form of a song. Sometimes it's a 90 minute story. Sometimes you end up on a nine year story,
Aaron: man that, touches on something that I had a real realization about a handful of years ago now. and I talk about it a lot the cliche is [00:11:00] what comes to mind first, but if you have like, what your North Star is, what your intent is, there are so many pathways that get there.
Like you said, like everything is around the guise of storytelling.
you know, it could be writing songs, it could be writing scripts, it could be interpreting other people's writing, Yeah. song or through acting. Like it's all in the same vein. And there's a well of inspiration and energy there to stay fresh and to kind of bounce around a bit.
Josh: Yeah. And also kind of refine it as you go. Like, I had a really interesting experience. I got invited to see Oasis the
other night,
think there were 60,000 people there, the scale of it was so massive. And, you know, There's an acknowledgement, like when Noel Gallagher picks up, you know, the acoustic, I'm like, okay, I, know what he did in his living room or whatever.
but it's designed for an arena on some level, it's designed for this enormous. Crowd did experience. And don't say this to say like, I don't wanna be an arena rockstar, but I don't want to be an arena rockstar. Like, I realized
I was [00:12:00] like watching It and I was like, I really admire how these songs are designed for scale.
But you guys know Josh Ritter? Do singer Josh Ritter? Yeah.
we've struck up a really lovely friendship and he told me once at lunch, he was like, over a thousand seats. It's like I lose what I'm best at. It starts to diminish what I'm doing. Like lyrically based storytelling, kind of troubadour songwriting. It can't stand up to that kind of scale. And I was thinking like, I'd love more people obviously to hear my music and I would love to perhaps play bigger rooms, but there's a cap on it because I feel. It's the kind of intimacy I'm longing for and want to be in a kind of certain dialogue with my audience.
It will diminish at a certain point. So I think like Michaela, you have a, we have a similar intimacy to our songwriting and there is a dilution I think and it's tricky because we also, we want to be successful and play bigger rooms and festivals and all that stuff, but at the same time, you have to be your own monitor of what is [00:13:00] best for your music and your art.
Michaela: Yeah. And I think a reoccurring theme in this podcast, these conversations is the evolution of refining. What is your goal and what is your definition of success? Because a lot of us can come up and think, I love acting. Okay. That means I wanna be a famous actor that's a big movie star and wins Academy Awards, because that's what, the world tells me is success.
Josh: Yeah.
Michaela: I love making music. That means I wanna be winning Grammys and selling out Madison Square Garden. And as you live it, start to understand. There's so much more to it than that and what, being in that lane looks like and what kind of sacrifices that takes, what that actually feels like. Even if you don't ever get to experience it, you can start to kind of understand what that would feel like.
When you start to feel the disconnect when you start playing for bigger audiences or whatever, really refining, oh, okay, I can be really happy playing for a room of 50 to [00:14:00] 200 people. And yes, we always want to feel more comfort and connection, but I think the trick is really learning and internalizing that more isn't always the goal.
Josh: A hundred percent. I've had so many robust conversations about this very thing with different artists, but also being inside of my own career and seeing, sometimes I look at, you know, when I'm on a, TV show or something, like just the press schedule and the talking to different people about it.
Even promoting an album, like there's a psychic cost to promotion, publicity. And I look at some people who have like these stratospheric careers, some of whom I know, many of whom I don't. But I look at it up close. And when you really see it up close it's like, oh, There's like a, on that, on your life that is incredibly high that you almost can't talk about. when very famous people try to talk about how hard it is, they're
like slapped down. Like you're not allowed to say it. And I think the reason you make so much money is because you have ended up having to [00:15:00] insulate your life in such a way.
Taylor Swift
in her private jet. Could you imagine if she tried to fly commercial?
Like there's simply no way. So you, get this kind of infrastructure around you that is incredibly isolating, incredibly lonely. Every move is dissected and analyzed and held up for either ridicule or praise.
the constitution. You have to have to live in that. I was actually asked by a friend who I went to this Oasis concert with, he's a very successful like businessman, but you wouldn't know who he was, but he does very well. And I tried to explain to him like, having the kind of success you have without your face being recognized is like literally the sweetest spot you could ever be in.
Like you have access to everything and you don't have to be hounded, airports or whatever. he asked me about becoming famous I tried to explain to him that it was complicated. that was the word I would use. Some of the ups were terrific and some of the downs were really hard.
Like I wouldn't be sued over this house the way I have been if I hadn't been on tv. I had some real stalker issues for years that were financially draining [00:16:00] and really psychologically taxing. Like There's all this stuff that comes along with it that you can't quite speak about. then there's this other thing, like when you're on a hit TV show, you start thinking, oh, I guess I have to try to become a movie star now.
Like that's what is expected of me.
And if I Don't, that will be considered some sort of weird failure, even though statistically am having this statistically improbable career that is like, I never in a million years thought I would when I started doing high school musicals, like I've already wildly exceeded my wildest dreams.
Like, but, but in America it's always like, the carrot's always moving. There's more, more, more, more, more, more. I don't know. I really key into artists who I can see that they said, you know what, this is where I'm comfortable being. This is who I'm comfortable being. This is, the amount I want.
And I'm not gonna constantly have my foot on the accelerator because I also think we have to pay attention to nature, which is a cycle of like, growth, death, rebirth, there are seasons, right? And certain seasons are more for being internal and quieter and hibernating [00:17:00] and other seasons you're more blooming and out, you
know.
try to really pay attention to my internal weather and see like, what's being asked of me or what my I don't know, like paying attention to like where the compass is pointing.
Aaron: Yeah. And on that idea of natural rhythm and, seasons and rebirth and reinvention. if you're open to it, I would love to hear experience of having the fame that you have coming from a TV show that is uniquely, like you are known, but you are known as this person that's not you.
Josh: Right.
Aaron: So as you're now have this like really diverse body of work that you're creating, how does being known not as you
Michaela: as Ted
Josh: yeah.
Aaron: As Ted, how does that play into these other creative endeavors? what is your experience with that?
Josh: wrote and directed this movie called Liberal Arts, which is about a 30 5-year-old guy who's. Pretty lost in aimless in New York City. He's got this real nostalgia for college, and he goes back to
his college, and that's kind of where it starts.
He goes back for his professor's retirement dinner and he meets this [00:18:00] student and he can't tell if there's this connection that's romantic or platonic, so the movie goes from there. But one of the things he says to this young student is when I was in college, it just felt like endless possibilities, like every road out ahead of me.
I didn't know how it was gonna go, but there was something both terrifying and exciting about that. Oh, I could go this way, I could go this way. And then you get to be 35, you get to be 50, you get to be, whatever age and your choices, you see that they were consequential. Could have stayed in New York and maybe I would've gotten in a lot of indie films, or maybe I would've won an Obie award or or maybe it would've been harder for me.
Like I actually found New York very hard when I was a young actor, and LA really opened up for me, especially the TV world, immediately. I booked my first pilot when I got out to la, like know, I try to pay attention to where the doors are, opening and stop pounding on the doors that are locked.
But actually I think we undervalue effortlessness and ease. Like where is there more flow, and we overestimate this kind of like drudgery or hard work. So tv the world just opened up to me. and yeah, I ended up on a show. You never think when you sign that [00:19:00] contract that you're gonna go nine years, something's gonna become very iconic.
people are gonna have a deep relationship with your face and your voice and think of you as a character that you are really not. it drove me into a real existential crisis. my friend said, how did you deal with that? And I was like, I did 150 ayahuasca ceremonies.
Like, That's how I dealt with it. Like, I just threw myself into like spirituality and soul searching. And I became a songwriter, which is also part of it like. Why don't I try to tell stories in a different, I mean, I'd always loved music and I started writing songs with Ben Lee, but know, no one deals with it, particularly graceful.
Like Everyone who becomes famous loses their mind a little bit and then finds a new normal or a new way to balance. but I think I just decided I was suddenly liberated to be an artist. Like I didn't have to fight for the next great role I had a former agent of mine who was my agent, like right after how I met your mother ended for the first year or two out.
Like I went to Broadway, I did this play called Disgraced. I was on this [00:20:00] PBS show called Mercy Street about this hospital and the Civil War. And she said to me around that time, she's like, I love your career right now. 'cause it doesn't seem desperate. It doesn't seem like you're like, oh, I don't want people to forget about me.
I need to get back in front of the cameras. And that's been something I've always tried to. Not be desperate for. mean, In some ways I'm, quite shy and I'm quite introverted, and I don't always want to be looked at. I wake up some days and I'm like, I don't want to be looked at today.
This is not the day for
me to be on camera.
this is a quiet, journaling day or whatever. I'm envious of certain people that I know who are like, always kind of camera ready, always ready to do it, always ready to like, go to the next rung of the ladder. I'm torn because I still want the next great, fun, delightful, popular thing, like everyone.
I know the cost can be high and I know that I can get stuck in a situation that I'm not particularly enjoying. I'm a little, maybe overly deliberate about what I do and what my next moves are, and I'm a little happier when I just take chances and keep moving. But yeah, looking [00:21:00] back the rest of my career on some level will be, or is a response to having been on this one show and being very careful not to play that same role again. Being careful to take roles that are really different, adventurous and weird. And also, not to put all my marbles on acting you know, if you told me I have to stop acting tomorrow, but I could keep writing, directing and making music, I'd be like, okay. I did more in that area than I've done in these other areas. So there's something about that, that I would, find some peace
with, which is not to say I wanna stop 'cause no one's making me,
Michaela: Yeah. but
It's interesting to me 'cause you and I got to talk a little bit about it when I. Opened shows with you last spring of because there were fans coming out for your music, but then you were also recognizing that there were some people who were there because they were so excited to see
Josh: Yeah.
Michaela: grappling with that.
you know, I think it can be hard because a kind of cultural assumption is like, nobody wants to hear a successful, famous person complain about how hard it [00:22:00] is for them to be successful and famous,
Josh: Right.
Michaela: to me it's human to have struggles with that. It's a cultural that wouldn't have any hardships attached to it.
But to me what that tells us is that creative fulfillment is something totally different outside affirmation and success for some creative type work that you've done or recognition. we have an ego. And we have the need to survive and keep working. So it's like on any level, keeping this all in check.
that's such a to how a lot of us who can get into creative career paths are conditioned by society. To think that a lot of people knowing us and getting paid a lot of money for our work is the answer, is the key to success. And I think you learn over and over again that is not, that.
Those things are probably really nice.
Josh: Yeah.
It's rare when they link up,
Michaela: Yeah. But that creative [00:23:00] fulfillment aspect seems be the bigger layer of how do you chase that and keep those other outside elements and voices at bay.
Josh: Yeah.
Michaela: And you know the work is always with you, the work of the self as well as the creative work like starts and ends here with us than putting so much on the reception.
Josh: Yeah, it's tricky because, I mean, I'm delighted when I write a song that my wife loves, there is actually like a true kick to
that. I trust her judgment. I trust her ear and her eye But at the same time, you know, if I make an album, I do want people to find it. I do want people to be affected by it.
I do want, word to spread. I want if someone loves it, I want them to send it to their friend,
are you guys Enneagram people? But I'm curious, what are you,
Michaela: I am a three wing four,
Josh: Right.
Aaron: one wing two.
Josh: Okay. Okay. Mikayla, for years, I thought I was a three wing four, but I'm starting to think I'm a four wing three.
Michaela: That's what I was. Wait, three [00:24:00] is the Dreamer, right?
Josh: Three is the achiever.
Four is the individualist.
Yeah. So
actually wrote a play called the Forgiveness Machine that is essentially a dialogue between the four and the three. Like If you break it down that way.
Oh, by the way, did you guys hear or listen to or read John and Paul, A love story, this new book about the Beatles.
Aaron: No. Mm-hmm.
Josh: It's so good. This British
writer, Ian Leslie
wrote it. It's I really recommend it, but if you break it down that way like, McCartney was a three and Lennon was a four.
Like no
question. it's actually a really good, I think combustible kind of combo, because the three is like, let's get it out there.
Let's like, keep moving. because the three, the wound is like, I'm only love for what I do, not for who I am. So I have to be proving to the world that I am worthy of love. Whereas the four, the individualist is like, no, it has to be truthful. It has to be authentic or it's not even worth anyone seeing.
Like, I cannot betray myself. I cannot betray my north star, my ideals. [00:25:00] I think when I was younger, I used to lean more three. And as I'm getting older, I'm much more of a four,
but there are some days where I can feel that I need, like my three needs a win. My three needs, like a call that like, oh, they really like you for this, or so and so responded to your script. Or, you know, I send out a newsletter and people respond. And I used to beat myself up over that and I think, oh, you're so needy.
You know, I would be mad at myself. But once I learned about the Enneagram, I was like, no, this is actually my factory settings. This is part of who I am. It's why I am able to make stuff and put it out there. I mean, A lot of wildly creative people can't finish things.
They get too afraid to put it out there.
Like, I'm a, finisher, like I like finishing things. I like showing people look what I made. Like There's something very, you know, pin it up on the refrigerator, kind of sweet and childlike about
it. so I really like that. But the four part of me won't let me get too far out into the deep end of visibility or public scrutiny until I feel, this is what I mean to say.
that's why [00:26:00] the tweaks on the new record are really important to me. 'cause it's like, no, I want to feel that this is the best version of the thing I could make at this point in my life.
Michaela: How do you think, ' cause you said I don't know if you're half joking, about how many Ayahuasca ceremonies
Josh: No, that was literally, I've done, that
many. Yeah, yeah,
Michaela: But I know you're, you know, into meditation and therapeutic work. You married a, therapist, right?
Not your therapist,
Josh: I didn't marry my therapist. That would be a, I think a violation of many statutes, but yeah.
Michaela: Yeah. as you've, swam in the deep end with that stuff, how have you seen it impact your creativity?
Josh: I think if you listen to my music, it's pretty clear. Like, This guy's like done some therapy and done some work on himself. Like it's very, I run introspective with my songwriting and I have things that happen in my life that I really wanna process. I don't know if we talked about this, but broadly speaking, I think there's infinite ways into a song, but I think for me, I can either write from the perspective of someone who's been through [00:27:00] something and looking back on it with some wisdom and perspective, or I can write from the perspective of the protagonist who's in the middle of the storm and hasn't yet figured it out, trying to figure it out.
So it kind of depends, I guess, on my mood or what idea I'm teasing out and trying to work with. I didn't play it much on tour, but like the opener on eulogy is called Red, and it's based on this Robert Bly notion of like. is like the first kind of phase of development for a boy when he is going through, puberty and adolescence and it's hot and it's angry and it's lusty and it's rebellious and it's, fuck you mom and dad kind of energy.
And I wrote it from that perspective. I wrote it from almost like a surly teenager's perspective. And then the last song on eulogy one is called Joshua 45 46, which is more about a person who's settling into the second half of life as Richard Rohr talks about it, has learned some things and is sharing, you know, just a snapshot of where he is.
Not the end, but certainly from a peaceful middle.
if you wanna make things, I think that [00:28:00] it's pretty good to know yourself and to kind of like take a flashlight to your interior and see what's in there. I know there's a, kind of old school idea that oh, I don't want to go into therapy because I'll, stop creating or, my dysfunction, or my darkness is actually the source of my creativity. I think that's a little 20th century, outmoded idea. not all, I don't wanna speak for all artists, let me just say, the art I respond to is from people who have, we talked about like Nick cave's, red hand files.
Do you get the red hand
files? Yeah.
Like, to me, that's the best thing that lands in my inbox every week, almost reliably. And the reason is because Nick Cave has. Suffered so much. there's a quote I love that says, don't come back from hell empty handed.
And it feels like he has been to hell and back in terms of losing children in terms of addiction to drugs.
And he's come back to us with like some real wisdom and some real knowledge that is not academic. It's not like you read it in books. It's no, this is what I [00:29:00] experienced. This is the grief I experienced. This is the light I experienced. This is the mercy and forgiveness and grace I experienced.
And to me those are the voices both worth listening to and in some ways trying to emulate. Because I want to be the kind of artist that is not speaking theoretically or academically, but rather experientially. And that's one of the things, we fetishize youth so much, especially in the industries we are all in.
There's such a youth fetishization and I think it's sad. Sometimes it's really fun to listen to like, let's go to the club songs or whatever, but At a certain age, you're gonna stop doing that and stop being interested in
that. But there's so much more life to be lived and explored and so much rich terrain in middle age and the older years.
And I still want to be making things in those years. I don't want to feel like well, you turn 40 or 50 and you got a hand in your creative card. 'cause art belongs to the youth. And I do think there's an energy to youth that I, didn't even know it when I had it because it's wasted on [00:30:00] the young and no one
understands it. But there's
something great about watching it, but there's also something great about being in these middle years and was talking to some friends in Columbus, Ohio, some high school friends a couple years ago, and I said, we all know what sucks about aging, but what's your favorite thing about aging?
And my friend ch said. I love that I have wisdom that I learn not from anywhere but my own experience that I actually own this kind of wisdom,
Whereas, you know, you're 20 and you just don't have enough experience, you have to almost have an external hard drive of You gotta take other people's word for it.
But then you get old enough and you've had enough failure, you've had enough heartbreak, you've hurt people, you've been hurt, you've, you know, tasted all these corners of what life has to offer, and you actually have something to say. Speaking of Robert Bly, I remember he said, until I turned 50, no one would listen to me.
He said, I was saying the same stuff all before, but there was something about the gray in his beard and his gray hair. It's like he grew into someone that people would listen to.
I battled with that because I had very young face for a very long time, especially clean shaven,
And my first film, happy, thank You More Please, I think [00:31:00] is loaded with wisdom, but I looked like a little young, whatever. And I think people, critics especially, were like, fuck you, we're not gonna listen to you. You're like a
child, you know? So I think, you know,
Sometimes like a little gray in the beard, like does speak to I've been here a little longer. I'm more seasoned,
you know, and I think we trust those people just a touch more.
Aaron: absolutely. I mean, what you were saying about that external hard drive of wisdom when you're a kid. It's so true. It's like, I, think back on that, and then it's like, there are definitely still nuggets of wisdom that I was infatuated with as a 20-year-old running around that I still believe today.
But a body to it. So instead of just like an idea,
Josh: Yeah,
Aaron: lived it, I have tried it on, it's like a well worn jacket on myself now,
Josh: totally.
Aaron: and conversely, I mean, there's still things that it's like, oh, that's what that means.
Josh: Yeah.
I remember Like, hearing like patience is a virtue. I never understood that. And I was like, one day I was like, oh, patience is a virtue. Like I, [00:32:00] I heard it
all of a sudden. You know? I also think there's something to be said, when you first start writing songs or writing prose you're basically imitating your heroes.
'cause you don't have anything else. You're
like, I'm trying to be Joni Mitchell. I'm trying to be Bob Dylan. I'm trying to be whatever. And then at some point Your own style comes out and it's certainly influenced by all those people you love, but something of your own voice starts to emerge.
even acting wise, I would, I see actors on stage or in movies, and I would imitate these moves that they were doing. And I,
they went through my own nervous system, so they became mine. I don't even remember what they
are anymore. but I feel like I own myself as an artist much more.
But there are all these other influences that just got thrown in, like a witches cauldron or something. I.
Michaela: Yeah, I think, the age thing in, in the industry of arts is so interesting to me because, especially as a woman, I've always had the anxiety of I have to hurry up and get to a level of success by a certain age because my biological clock is ticking and I'll start to have kids and I'll be, [00:33:00] thrown out.
And two being a young woman is way more appealing than an older woman. And I've learned, I'm 39, I've had two children. I've already like, experienced the consequences in the music industry of what, that is. And I'm like. You guys are crazy because life just gets better and deeper even as harder things happen.
Josh: Yeah.
Michaela: I've spent a long time like romanticizing my life, pre pandemic where I was like, oh, it was so great when I was like young and free and doing whatever I wanted. in the last couple of years I've been like, it wasn't though.
Josh: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michaela: And I had a friend who like, recently has been going through his first kind of experience of an aging parent where he has to care, take and is like going through a really hard time.
And we were talking and reflecting on my experience with my mom and he has a young child now. And, and he was very like, I'm in a dark season of life. I was like, [00:34:00] yes you are. you're in a painful, dark, necessary, inevitable season of life. We will all go through at some point.
And I was like, you know where I feel like I'm a little on the other side for the time being until the next dark period comes. what I've learned through really facing it and working through it and creating art to make meaning from it and understand it, I like myself much more than I ever did when I reflect on my younger self.
Because my younger self was like really looking for others to tell me
you're good enough. And also it was like so much see seeking
Josh: yeah.
Michaela: not a lot of sacrifice or caring for others. And
Josh: Right.
Michaela: that's like the gold in middle life. If you're lucky that circumstances change, life isn't only about yourself.
Hard things are actually really Mm-hmm. life.
Aaron: you said that like, life gets richer. I think you used the word better even as like there are [00:35:00] more bad things that happen and I would just present the paradigm, like it gets richer and better because more bad things happen.
Yeah. like you said, Josh, don't come back from hell empty handed. Like, I don't learn anything, be it a tool or a habit or anything about myself when I'm getting green lights.
Josh: No, no. Success is actually quite a lousy teacher.
Yeah. Miller, who's the,
Oh, Guster. Oh yeah. He's a buddy of mine. I
love Ryan. Yeah.
Aaron: So maybe, you've heard him talk about this, but he brought up the idea of like, you know, approaching your creativity and your art. the parallels between that and like tech Bros in the sense that like, with like tech startups, their whole thing is like, ideas, try ideas, break it, have it fail so you can find what works.
And there's such a fear of failure and creativity. It's like, ah, like how's this gonna be received? It's like, no, like throw it out there try it and you're going to find like where that gold is, you're gonna find where your voice is,
Josh: Yeah,
Aaron: Works for you, where yeah, with your audience.
Josh: And I, I have a couple things to say. That was all really lovely. Thanks for sharing all that. But not to invoke her too much, but I think one of the reasons Taylor Swift is so [00:36:00] culturally perennially, seemingly relevant, is because she's died and been reborn so many times.
she's had all these, oh, she's over. People have turned on her, and she's a phoenix, right? Like she keeps.
Rising from the ashes. and I Think that's probably what both has made her so beloved and also such a fascinating creature to watch because we trust that arc, you know, death and, rebirth.
And we all experience it on our own, not that scale. I mean, That's insane. But, Michaela, when you were talking about like how you have so much more to share, there was a quote that I had heard once that said, every act of communication is either a call for love or an expression of love. And when I was younger, almost all of my artistic communication was a call for love.
Like, tell me I'm good enough. Tell me I'm handsome enough. Tell me I'm charming enough. Tell me I'm funny enough, tell me I belong here, tell me whatever. And then as I got older and as I suffered and failed and got seasoned in a different way.
I hope [00:37:00] that I'm transitioning into an artistic life that is an expression of love. Like, I'm actually filled up. I don't need you to tell me that I'm wonderful and great, I just got something to share. And I'm sharing it out of generosity, not out of quid pro quo. I don't need anything back from you, other than perhaps your attention, you know? but I also love, I didn't know this until I became friends with people who grew up Christian or evangelical. They use this term that used, used a lot in Nashville, which I've actually taken on because I didn't grow up. 'cause I grew up Jewish in Ohio. It's not a term we used, but when you say like, I'm in a season of dot, dot, dot, right? To me, it's a really merciful way to describe where you are because one thing about seasons is they don't last forever. They have an end point and a new season begins. And so I really like speaking of things of, like, I'm in a season of this. And I'm acknowledging that it's this season, but I also acknowledge that spring's around the corner, you
know, it's gonna be different.
It's not gonna be this way forever. And most of when I get into some kind of suffering is [00:38:00] when I think that my present moment of discontent or dissatisfaction is, this is the rest of my life now. Welcome to the rest of your miserable life. It will never, ever end. And it's, you know, it's just future tripping.
It's like, I just need someone to say like, yes, but I promise you this won't last forever. Just someone saying that to me is all the relief I need because something about my mind, you know, I read that, happiness feels like a state that always feels tenuous.
We
always sense it's gonna desert us.
And depression feels like this is here to stay. It's never gonna leave,
you know, so
there's something about the way our minds are wired, but I agree. I mean, I would love to be a part of some kind of renaissance of like, middle aged artists who actually have something really deep to say.
The problem is if you're raising kids and caring for aging parents, you have less time to do the stuff.
You know, you're grabbing it where you can. Do you know Kyle Cox? He's in Nashville. He, yeah.
Michaela: him because of you
Josh: Oh, okay. Yeah.
He's a [00:39:00] great friend, great songwriter.
He's got two kids him and his wife do a thing where they each get one day a weekend.
So like, he'll watch the kids Saturday, she'll get the day, he'll watch the, you know, he's also, he said, if I have 10 minutes, I'll do something.
I'll make music,
he's, having more success as a father of two very young children than he is had before. he said, Cause I've gotten so economical about when I can do it, because I just don't have all the time in the world that I used that. And if you're honest with yourself, when you have all the time in the world, you're not working for 17 hours a day like
you are,
you are still grabbing the time, you're waiting for inspiration to strike.
I mean, Sometimes you can get more disciplined, but like, you know, it's that thing of like, if you need something done, give it to a busy person.
you get busier and you know how precious time is and you know how to use it better.
Michaela: Yeah, I think we've found that, I feel like, oh yeah, having now two kids you have to maximize time. and it becomes normalized because if I try and zoom back of like, if you told my [00:40:00] 30-year-old self, like how our days were gonna be spent we often will work.
All day and work in pockets, even if the kids are around and then like do dinner, bath and bedtime and go back to work.
Josh: Right.
Michaela: will spend most nights coming back out here
Josh: Yeah.
Michaela: to the studio and working. I will, you know, maybe be doing emails or reading or whatever for now I'm starting school. But I would've thought that sounds awful, but I feel like we're living really fulfilling lives.
And then we also prioritize really quality time when it's together our family time is and sacred. You can say what you think. No, no, I agree. The, the thing
Aaron: that resonates with me like about, you know, having to be efficient with time is it's also like a, repetitive lesson in non-attachment
Josh: Yeah.
Aaron: we don't have the luxury of just sitting around waiting for the muse to strike.
Josh: Right,
Aaron: know? And at best we've learned when to allot quote unquote free time
Josh: right.
Aaron: happen. But even in that, I found for [00:41:00] myself that I need to let go of my attachment to the muse strike
Josh: Right.
Aaron: if I've had the luxury of carving out five hours in a day for
Josh: Yeah,
Aaron: generally if I show up, I'm like, great, I have these five hours, the muse is gonna strike and then like, it's life and it's creativity.
So like two hours in, you know, I can very easily be like, okay, where the, fuck is the muse? Did she not get my Google calendar
Josh: yeah,
Aaron: is this? And then, it's definitely not gonna come.
Josh: yeah,
Aaron: it's all has to just be a lesson in, in non-attachment and just trust that like this is how it is now and it's beautiful and to be present in the beauty of it.
Josh: Did you guys read, Jeff Tweed's memoir?
Aaron: something about, hurry up. We'll get there when we get there. I don't
Josh: remember what it was called.
Aaron: we listened to for audio books. It's produced really well because he gets his family involved.
Josh: Okay.
Aaron: Spencer's talking in the, book, he actually
Josh: Oh,
Aaron: The characters play
Josh: Yeah. yeah, I read it. I, thought it was really good. But the thing I loved about him was it's almost like he treats songwriting like a blue collar job.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Like he just goes to the office
Josh: and then he comes home [00:42:00] and he is with his wife and kids, and like, there was a no fuss, kind of Midwestern, blue collar vibe going with his songwriting that I thought was really something to emulate, give yourself office hours.
I know when you have young kids, it's a lot harder, but like, it's a craft in the same way. Like building a guitar would be a craft,
you know, being a cobbler we're constructing things, you know, you wanna have a bass, a solid foundation, and you, you're adding it all in.and certainly we've all felt when the muse is there and you're like, oh, this song came out of me in five minutes, and
it's perfect, and then there's other songs that I write for months where I'm just chiseling away, waiting for the perfect lyric, don't know how to finish it, don't know how to land the plane.
And then there's other songs that had a great start and you, just can't finish them. have certainly tasted when that muse is present and it's delightful and it's delicious, but it almost feels like a drug experience where you're like, I can't keep chasing that. I'm just gonna have to be a craftsman
who works and works and works.
And every once in a while, the wind will hit my back [00:43:00] and just push me along. I don't know if you guys are like War of Art, Stephen Pressfield people, but the true artists like just shows up anyway.
You know? And some days are just what they are. But the songs I've written that have Felt like they've been written by someone else are weirdly no better than the songs that I like, blood, sweat, and Tears to them in the last analysis. Like Leonard Cohen said, if I knew where great songs came from, I'd go there a lot more.
it is a mystical process.
And also don't treat it like one
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. on that, of the ones that just kind of, the suns that just flow through you versus the ones that you to really chisel out. I personally have the same, realization that they're. No one is necessarily better than the other, but it needs space
Josh: Yeah.
Aaron: kinda like the Ikea effect.
If I really like chisel out a song and there's a lot of steam coming from my brain as we're making it. When it's done, I'm like, this is a good song. I put a lot of work into this
Josh: Yeah.
Aaron: And then two months later I'm like,
Michaela: that's not great.
Josh: Right. fine. It's possible. Well,
Michaela: I think it's being detached from the process in a [00:44:00] way because I talk to my songwriting students about this all the time that like you said earlier, like we overestimate struggle, and we underestimate ease.
Sometimes we can think well, that was too easy, so it must not be good. That song just appeared, so that means it's
Josh: Yeah,
Michaela: And I have examples of that. Sometimes the ones I didn't overthink are the ones that end
Josh: yeah,
Michaela: with audiences even more.
Josh: you can
labor a song into death. Like you can drain all the life and magic out of a song by over chiseling it. Sometimes if I have a good, chord progression and I start singing nonsense just to kind of get a kind of rhythmic pattern or lyrical Sometimes the weird thing you start singing is what it wants to
be, and you're like, why do I keep singing that word like. Ben Lee and I have a song that I really love from our second album, golden State, and it's Ohio, where I'm from, but we started playing this chord progression. It was just, I think G to D at first, but I just kept hearing, oh, Ohio, like that's the only, vowels it wanted to be. And so we just wrote a song about [00:45:00] Ohio
because it was like, okay, let's let the thing that's coming through me be what the song is. Um, we get asked as songwriters, like, what comes first, the music or the lyrics? And I always find it to be like, no offense to anyone who's gonna ask me that question in the future, but it's the equivalent of asking an actor.
How do you memorize all those lines?
come in in different ways. Like sometimes you overhear a line in the grocery store and you're like, I'm gonna write a song around that. And other times you are noodling around on a guitar and you get a melody that comes through and you're like, let's write a song now.
yeah, you had mentioned in there you can chisel a song to death, you can tweak, and I, think that also extends into a record. You can talk about mixed tweaks. You can mix, tweak a song to
Yeah.
Aaron: a really balance. I'm interested, is that possible with like a screenplay as well? Can you chisel a scene to death or a character.
Josh: Yeah, I heard a costume designer, famous costume designer said the costume isn't finished when the last thing has been put on it. It's finished when the, everything that doesn't belong has been taken away. So like I just co-wrote a screenplay for the last year with a [00:46:00] really high level journalist.
It was based on her award-winning article,
And she's a total brilliant journalist and really has some native screenwriting gifts. But I had to work with her because her first drafts were so fat.
There were just so big you know the artist Al Hirschfeld, who like in the New York Times, he used to do all the theater drawings and they were just like these quick little.
Brush strokes that would, create this whole world. But it was all suggestive. And I kept telling her hirschfeld like, you need a lot less. the less you can do for the more effect is better. And that's, I think, analogous for songwriting too. And less, the point of a song is excess, which is also like a way to write.
I remember, did you see the movie X Machina?
Aaron: No. Yeah, it's,
Josh: Yeah. It's been about a, a at the beginning, they're flying this guy in a helicopter you don't know this yet, but to a, very wealthy man's compound. And they're flying over like mountains and trees and he says. when are we gonna get to so-and-so's property?
And the pilot looks back at him and he says, we've been flying over it for [00:47:00] 45 minutes. And I thought it was such a good example of like, they didn't need to say like, this guy's incredibly wealthy. It's just like, this is all his property.
I just thought it was like really good screenwriting,
Just a hirschfeld line, So I'm always looking for things that, do that kind of thing, really economically.
it's hard with screenplay because it's not the movie, it's the roadmap for the movie. So you're really writing it for the reader who is either gonna produce your movie, design your movie be the whatever designer on your movie.
so you want to take them through it. But I've often find, first drafts. Are overwritten because you are explaining the story to yourself. my favorite quote about screenwriting is from Billy Wilder who said, let the audience put two and two together and they'll love you forever. And you have that experience of watching a movie where you're a little too led by the nose, where they're not trusting you to put it together. And you also have the experience of delight when you're watching a movie. And the whole audience kind of gets it at the same moment. And it's not because the screenwriter or the director like [00:48:00] hit it over the head.
They actually let you do your work. And
that's the most fun where you, trust your audience, but early drafts you don't know how to do that. Exactly. 'cause you're, telling yourself the story. and this is another thing I had to work with this journalist on, is she would write things and I'd say, no, let the actor play that. Like let someone said something and I just wrote in the. stage description. Touche.
And she was like, maybe we'll let the actor say touche. And I said, I'm much more interested in the actor saying touche with their eyes than saying that word.
Michaela: I've never written a screenplay, but I, it sounds similar to songwriting in that you have other elements at your disposal to tell the story. not just the words, like with writing a song, you're not just telling the story with the lyrics, you're also using the rhythm, the melody, the harmony, the arrangement, versus writing an article or a novel where all of it is coming from the
Josh: right. that was part of our thing. I, I said to [00:49:00] her, your final draft as a journalist is the thing. This is a step on the way to the thing. This is a suggestion of the thing. Ben Lee told me a story about Phil Specter, that he was on some talk show and they read some of his lyrics to him, but almost in a mocking tone of like, how stupid are these lyrics?
And he just looked at them and he goes, yeah, but put a beat on it. like with, if it doesn't have percussion on it, like yeah, it's gonna be dumb, but with it, it's thrilling.
This was another great thing that Ben taught me, and Stephen Sondheim said this, that often poets make lousy lyricists because the language is too rich. And when I first started writing songs, my lyrics they were a little too rich, a little too polysyllabic, and Ben taught me that good lyrics doesn't equal good poetry or good prose. It's a whole different thing. And we have this song called Green Street on our second record that I really. There's a line called We're Keeping On, just Keeping on And he's like, that's not a good line to say, [00:50:00] but it's so fun to sing.
and it, and it is, you know, it's great when you have the, propulsive thing to it, you
know? could see that in an arena to go back to our oasis
where we started. it's cool when you switch forms that you have to adjust what is necessary. not all credits transfer. Like everything requires a different, I mean, I think emotional, you know, honesty and authenticity are like required across the board, but, different things are required for screenplays, for songs, for, you know, an essay.
Michaela: And in music you also learn like what's the difference of like the songs that you feel like really shine in a studio and recorded. Then you go on tour and you learn which songs feel like great to play solo or play with a band,
Josh: Totally
Michaela: land, which ones lend itself to more storytelling around the song.
Josh: right.
Michaela: It's all the nerdy stuff I love.
Aaron: thing that really kind of, I'm intrigued by is the lens that you use as a writer, and I can imagine it'd be the same for songwriting and screenwriting and that you're looking at this thing that, [00:51:00] that everybody knows and everybody's familiar with, but you're looking at it in this light that is, fresh and intriguing.
That's the kind of stuff that like ropes me in.
Josh: Yeah.
Aaron: this whole kind of. in like a Larry David Sense, or it's like, looking at clouds the way Joni Mitchell does. You know, it's things that are very familiar that, like, they look at them in their own unique ways that you're like, oh, this is incredible.
Mm-hmm. Because
Josh: Yeah.
the human experience is common in that, we've all seen trees, we've all seen skies. It's like the artist just has a different way in
that allows you to like, see it anew
I imagine children do this where they kind of rehan the world for you
because you're watching them watch and discover the world for the first time. And I think that's what great art does, is it de mundane.
I just made up a word, but you know what I mean. it takes something that we've seen so many times it ree chance it, it gives it like a new. Way of seeing it psychedelics do this too, where you're like, oh my God, a tree is a living [00:52:00] being, and it sounds so silly when you say it but when you're on like healthy dose of mushrooms, like a tree is like, you can't imagine anything that you'd rather be
kind of touching and with and, feeling breathe along with you.
I never really put it that way, but I one of the things I want to do is ree the world for myself and my listeners.
Michaela: Yeah, children are an incredible gateway to that. I mean, you met. Our like, how often I hear birds chirping in the morning and I notice them, but of times I don't because I've heard it a million times. And like this summer we were Maine and like the windows were open and woke up and the birds were chirping.
And Georgia was like, birdies, that's such beautiful singing. I was like, yeah, it is.
Josh: Yeah. Yeah.
we like to kinda ask one final question on these. choose your own adventure. It could either be like something you'd tell. Josh, that's just stepping into a career based on your creativity or something that somebody has told you along the way that still [00:53:00] resonates with you and is a fuel in the tank.
years ago I worked with the actress, Judith Light, who's remained a very good friend and she had this manager named Herb Hampshire who passed away. But I had this thing like being from the Midwest where I was very nervous about seeming arrogant or seeming like, oh, I'm better than people, or, I think I'm something. And it led to me. Being someone who, it was very hard to compliment I was very ducked away and I was just sheepish and embarrassed about being praised or seen in a certain way. And he gave me a real schooling in this. And he said, you have to have an honest assessment of your talent. you have to know how good you are or you're not gonna get where you need to go.
And other people who've taken an honest assessment of their talent are gonna zoom past you and you're gonna resent them. it's a covert form of narcissism. He said, don't let that happen to you. really? Take good look at yourself. And he really believed in me.
He was very vocal about his belief in me, but he also saw that I had this [00:54:00] dodgy hedgie thing around being complimented and praised. some of it is like Ohio like, or either my family or like. tall Poppy syndrome, right? it was almost like a fear.
Have you guys ever read The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks? It's a great book, but he talks about these things called upper limit problems, where you get to a certain point where you're actually succeeding, but you keep hitting your head on this ceiling. And he has different ways to look at them.
And, one of them is, either in your family, like you were taught, don't outshine your brother and sister or, if you get too big for your britches, your hometown won't love you anymore. You know,
there's all these Things that are unconsciously woven in. And I don't know where mine came from exactly, but I really had to deal with my humble thing right now.
I'm never gonna be like a cocky pro wrestler, you know, or something like saying how great I am. I, I did have to liberate myself from this idea that I. Was, not good at this thing. Like I really had to accept that I was really good at what I did, and he, gave me this talking to you, and a [00:55:00] couple months later, I booked how I met your mother.
And I don't think it was accidental. Like, I think I, walked into that audition room with a real sense of I'm the guy for this. and it would be your mistake not to cast me. And that's not arrogant. That's just like, kind of claiming what's mine, you know? and it, and I look back and sometimes I, you know, I've talked with my wife about this, I had a kind of moxie at 27, 28, 29 that I'm trying to reclaim a little bit. because I think ignorance is bliss. Like you don't know what you're getting yourself into, so you just throw yourself headlong. I'm a little more cautious that, but I'm really trying to reclaim some of that. Put me in coach, you know, hand me the ball, like I'll make the shot I think that talk gave me permission to believe in myself a little bit more and not try to hide or try to, not seem certain way.
Like, It just, it was like, no, you're good at this. Believe in it. Believe in yourself. Walk tall, stand tall. Claim, your seat, God, god bless
Aaron: the permission to believe in yourself. it's a thing, you know, especially I see it with a lot of friends that are artists that, like ego is almost viewed as a four letter word.
Josh: yeah,
Aaron: it can [00:56:00] also be helpful.
Josh: yeah. it took me a while to get comfortable in the studio just because I was. A creature, I guess, of live performance and all kinds of stuff. But, you know, just getting comfortable on the mic and getting comfortable. Like, these songs deserve to be heard, and you are the one keeping your light under a bushel, if that's the term, you know, It's almost like if you make something good, don't accept all the credit. It's not all yours, but it's incumbent upon you to share it because
it's a generous act. That's where like creativity becomes a generous act. Not an act of self, inflation, you know, egoic inflation. But actually like, this song really helped me.
I have songs that I am so happy I have them because they're kind of prayers, like my song unopened or down in the dirt songs you heard a bunch, they become like prayers that I get to sing and hear.
Share. And I need those songs, you know, I need them just as much as anyone else might need them. So I really like thinking of art as a generous act.
It makes me much more, bold about making things and sharing them.
Michaela: I love that. Yeah.
Aaron: I mean, [00:57:00] talk about a generous act. It's very generous of you to sit down with us and just
Josh: Oh, well, I I really loved, meeting you guys and hanging in various cities
and the Evanston, uh, green room will always be in my heart. 'cause it was a, it was like an apartment we've all wanted to move into.
Michaela: Yeah.
But, um, no, I loved being on tour with you,
Josh: Mikayla and Aaron when you were around. It was
always awesome to connect with you guys and I felt like immediately like these are fellow travelers, like we think about art and creativity in very similar ways.
Michaela: Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you so much for giving us your time
and hopefully we will see each other in person again
Josh: I'd love that. I want to get down to Nashville soon,
so, uh, hopefully you guys will be there.
Aaron: Alright, Josh, thank you so much. Thank
Josh: All right. Thanks guys.
Okay, bye-Bye.