J Edward Keyes is a journalist with bylines in Pitchfork, Rolling Stone, SPIN, Entertainment Weekly, Village Voice, and who is now the Editorial Director at bandcamp. As an online record store, and music magazine (bandcamp daily), bandcamp is a central hub to the independent music industry (they pay out 82% of their revenue, versus less than 70% at Spotify, et al). We talk with J Edward about sustain, advocating, and growing a vibrant independent music industry and the unique lane bandcamp has carved, "record store" trends, the role of journalism and music advocates, we as the question - do artist's even need a publicist?? And a whole lot more.
J Edward Keyes is a journalist with bylines in Pitchfork, Rolling Stone, SPIN, Entertainment Weekly, Village Voice, and who is now the Editorial Director at bandcamp. As an online record store, and music magazine (bandcamp daily), bandcamp is a central hub to the independent music industry (they pay out 82% of their revenue, versus less than 70% at Spotify, et al). We talk with J Edward about sustain, advocating, and growing a vibrant independent music industry and the unique lane bandcamp has carved, "record store" trends, the role of journalism and music advocates, we as the question - do artist's even need a publicist?? And a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 111, and this week we're featuring our conversation with Jay Edward Keyes.
Aaron: So in our effort to broaden our conversations on how to sustain a career based on your art, not only are we starting to have conversations with other artists such as writers and illustrators, we're also starting to bring in some industry folks.
And so today we have Jay Edward Keys, who is the editorial director at Band Camp. He has been a music journalist for the past 20 plus years with bylines at places like Pitchfork, rolling Stones, spin Entertainment Weekly, the Village Voice, rest in Peace, and he brings a wealth of knowledge. I guess really you could say from the other [00:01:00] side of the table, an industry perspective that how do we all manage this career?
That is built on art when your responsibility is being Bandcamp, which is ostensibly a record store.
Michaela: Yeah. We get to dig into some of the more business side of things specifically on the selling of music side. So what role the platforms play in the changing ecosystem of a music industry and why band camp insists on prioritizing and championing.
Human connection and curation when algorithms seem to be running the rest of the platforms.
Aaron: and we also get to ask some like pretty direct questions like do artists even need a publicist nowadays? And the ever answerable question, where does the industry go from here? So there's some more direct, tangible dare I say classic interview questions in this one.
But across the board there are topics throughout this conversation that come as suggestions from our Patreon community, and that is because they get advanced notice of our guests before we have [00:02:00] these conversations and they can submit questions, topics. General mysteries they'd like us to explore. There's also a, a slew of other things happening or not happening at any given time on our Patreon.
It's ever changing. Ever fresh. So if you would like to directly support the production of our show, there's a link to our Patreon below in the show notes.
Michaela: And if you are more of a visual person this conversation and all of our previous conversations are on YouTube. So without further ado, here is our conversation with the editorial director of Band Camp Jay Edward Keys.
Aaron: Jay Edward, thank you for taking the time to be with us here today.
Edward: Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Aaron: Yeah. So how long have you been at Bandcamp? You're the editorial director over there.
Edward: I am, I've been here for nine years.
Aaron: it doesn't seem like a crazy long time, but there's been a lot of changes in nine years.
Edward: Sure has. Yeah. I've seen 'em all.
Aaron: Yeah. Can you give us a little rundown of where you're coming from? I know that you were a journalist and a music writer, and you were also musician yourself.
Is that [00:03:00] correct?
Edward: No. Um, Yeah.
Michaela: was like, I found that he has a noise project, so I wasn't,
Edward: Sure. I know what you're, I
Michaela: I was like, that could mean musician or maybe not.
Edward: I, that was a faded college. One man noise band that made some tapes that is not worth talking about is
Michaela: Okay.
Edward: not
Aaron: Okay.
Edward: any of our time.
Aaron: Okay. Okay. So you're not like some of us musicians that have dug up those old tapes and put them on band camp? No.
Edward: I have the old tapes, but they will not be going on that camp. They will be going nowhere
Aaron: Okay. Good to know.
Edward: I, I think hopefully I'm the only person in existence who has them. real music to speak of other than singing karaoke.
but I've
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: a music journalist for about 20 years I started when print was still a thing around the year 2000 interning with the Philadelphia Weekly in their music department, writing reviews, helping edit, [00:04:00] et cetera, et cetera.
was a freelance music writer for a long time. Wrote for rolling Stone and Pitchfork, spin Entertainment Weekly Village Voice like Ram, the whole gauntlet. In 2005 I got hired as a deputy editor for what was then a digital music service that was very similar to Bandcamp, and I started out as a deputy editor there and then just worked my way up, eventually became editor in chief of the music. And then in 2016, Bandcamp was looking to expand and launch an editorial platform. And that's how I ended up here. I had a couple of conversations with them and it seemed like a good fit. And we launched Bandcamp Daily in June of 2016, so it's almost been 10 years that the Daily's been around.
yeah, I've been with Bandcamp for about that long. But yeah, I was freelancer specifically kind of in the independent music space for a long time before that.
Aaron: Amazing. And for people to know. Can you kind of explain your role now at Band Camp and what, The Daily is
Edward: Yeah. Yeah, totally. so Bandcamp daily is Bandcamp's. I. Editorial platform. We have a elevator pitch for it, which is, Bandcamp Daily exists
to shine a
Michaela: to shine a all over the world who are [00:05:00] using Bandcamp to connect with fans.
Edward: and we run features on artists who use the platform.
We also run scene reports on different musical scenes that are happening all over the world. And, that global aspect is really important to what we do. So, you know, When we launched editorial on Bandcamp back in 2016, part of the idea was that, people kind of had this perception of what Bandcamp was.
It's, where I go to get all my, like local indie rock or local punk rock and stuff, which is great that is what it is. there's also, you know, electronic music from Beijing on there and there's also hardcore from the Philippines and there's also dance music from Uganda. And there's all these great communities all over the world that are using the platform.
And so a big part of what we wanted to do is, let's. Focus on some of those platforms and let's elevate some of those voices. And so, you know, if you go back all the way to 2016 to the beginning, you'll notice this whole mixed in and amongst what we do is our scene reports, which are focused on a lot of these global scenes.
We just ran one on the [00:06:00] r and b scene in Berlin not long ago. We ran one on the new Avantgarde Italian pop scene. And so, we do a lot of written features and scene reports and interviews. We also have video content now as well. So if you go to bandcamp's Instagram we've got a lot of stuff on reels that are kind of adapted from the scene reports that we do on the site.
And it's just a different voice and a different presentation for some of the articles that we run on Band Camp Daily. And we have a Monday night radio show on East Village Radio here in New York that spotlights a lot of the music that's on the site as well as a bunch of radio shows on the platform itself.
Michaela: Wow, I didn't know any of this. Yeah. I've been learning as we go too. So it's still, it's very human curated.
Edward: It's a hundred percent human curated. And that's know, one of the main distinctions of Bandcamp in general is that you find music that you love on the site, because of an algorithm, not because record labels are giving us payola, not
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Edward: handshake deals in backroom. Every single thing you discover on the site is because a human being thinks it's important for you to [00:07:00] hear it. So whether that human being is a freelance writer who happens to write for Bandcamp daily, or one of Bandcamp's editorial staff, Bandcamp also works where you follow artisan labels directly. You can follow your friends on Bandcamp. So your recommendations are gonna be albums that your friends bought that you might be into.
You
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: who have similar tastes as you on Bandcamp, so your recommendations are coming from there. But it's all curation across the board. There's no formula serving this stuff up.
Michaela: So why do you think, as someone who's been in the music industry for 20 years obviously a, deep fan of music, why do you think it's important to preserve that human connection to music? For the culture of music as well as. The listeners and the artists.
'cause one of the questions we wanna like talk about is all of the audience experience and then the artist and band experience of these platforms and how we get our music out there. So if you can talk about why you think that if human curation sharing is all really important and [00:08:00] not going over to algorithmic based playlisting and sharing like all of the other platforms.
Edward: I think a lot of it is at the end of the day and, I think you'll both, know, appreciate this being musicians yourselves at the core of all of it. Is, music is in a lot of ways about human connection and it doesn't have to necessarily be the stereotypical ways. people, think about connection where it's hard on sleeve, whatever, confessional, that's absolutely valid, but it's human connection of this song makes me want to go out onto the dance floor. This song makes me wanna, blast it in my car and feel really good on a sunny day like it is today. Part of what we think is important is if this song and this artist is doing this to me as a human being, or one of our writers as a human being, gonna have that same resonance for you.
Because the artist who made this, again, no matter what type of music it is they're kind of doing it with you in mind. They're, doing it with the audience in mind. They wanna move you. And so one of the reasons that we value that is 'cause we do think that there's nothing stronger than that connection between two people or three people.
And so, even [00:09:00] in, writing about. Music on Bandcamp Daily. Our whole approach, we go for is you should write about this stuff like you're talking to a friend. We're not looking for you to write this in the voice of the person at the record store who intimidates you or makes you feel bad about your
Aaron: Hmm.
Edward: know what I
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Edward: this to feel sincere and the attitude should be, I'm really excited about this album. I think you're gonna be excited about this album too. Check it out. I'm so excited to give it to you. And I just think there's nothing that really transcends that, and that's why we put the value on it.
And it's also, you know, music made by humans and for humans and not mediated
Aaron: Yeah.
Edward: other means. And, And I think that's, that's a lot of it too. You know,
Michaela: Oh my God. That's gonna be a common slogan, I feel like in the coming years of humans
Edward: now
Michaela: by humans. For humans.
Aaron: Geez. Yeah. As we were talking before we, we hopped on here, it really solidified in my mind like how you have these streaming services, be it, everyone from Spotify to Apple to title, it has been this shift to [00:10:00] being a tech company and not a record store, even though they are a sensibly. Today's record stores. And so with that, I perceive that the end goal is like they are focused on the consumer, and the user experience of that. Which, you know, you can argue that record stores have always been about the user experience because it's a store and, all of that.
But when I first started recording, I was like 14 years old. And I grew up in a small town in Maine, but there were like two record stores and we brought like burned CDs to the record store and we're like, can we sell these? And they're like, yeah, sure kid, you can have a spot there.
They didn't give us money for 'em. Who you know, if anybody from record connection in Waterville, Maine is hearing this, I'm sorry that you still have my burned Tica CD from 1996, but I thought I was the coolest kid in town, like walking into that record store and like getting my record in that record store and it was an outlet and it was like this beacon of oh, you can do this. Like, This is how you do this. This is how you become a pro. Like, Or, at 16, I was like, this is how you become a rock star. And I'm just wondering [00:11:00] like what your, take on that is the record store of today, if you will.
Edward: mean, what you're getting at with that is, I think part of the reason why Bandcamp is so appealing to so many people because instead of, bringing your burn CD to the record store, we make it so that you can set up your storefront. I. At home
connect directly with fans yourself.
And we've tried to keep it as easy as possible. And that's been one consistent, everything over the last 10 years as Bandcamp is that we've always tried to keep that human connection between, no matter what else is going on between artists and fans. A really vital part of what we do. And we haven't changed, there's no cost of entry, you don't have to pay us a monthly fee to have a store. I think, we take percentage of, sales, but
you don't
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: pay to sign up.
and we try to really keep same level of authenticity that you had bringing your burn CD to the record store.
You know, it's, still kind of the same thing. We'll now set it up and the wheel and you have all these other levers that you can pull to connect with people, whether it's social platforms or even using bandcamp's messaging system. We try to [00:12:00] make it fairly easy to find the editorial staff if you wanna, send albums to us. And
we try to preserve that and try to like, keep it relatively frictionless for people to get their music into the world.
Michaela: this might sound like a super cynical question and it is
Edward: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: because I'm like, trying to think how to say this except for just why,
Edward: Right.
Michaela: because I feel like at this point in my life, you know, I'm 38 years old. Been making music for 10, 15 years. I worked at Nonesuch Records right outta college before I started doing this myself.
you know, saw a lot of industry changes and it's so fascinating to me how in my. Perception of the last 15 years of being in this business. We're constantly pivoting of oh no, now they're streaming. no, don't tell audiences to stream. Tell them to buy. Okay, I guess we gotta stream.
now we tell them, okay, push the streaming and get on the playlists. And like, oh, that's how you make money. Oh, now playlists are impossible [00:13:00] because they're more algorithm based and it's just like, so every platform or avenue like, feels like it always gets spoiled. If, that makes sense.
And always by being driven by profit minimizing costs, whatever the reasons are of corporations doing what they do. So why does band camp want to preserve this business model that feels. Really nice. This is so cynical of me. I'm like, what's the catch?
Edward: It's, it's no, no. It's, It's a fair question and, and it's, you know, it's something that, that people have asked, before. I mean, Part of this, the answer lies in the question. It's because all of this other stuff is happening
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Edward: To still be this outlet for artists who don't wanna go that way. The platform itself sustainable as it is. I wish there were some other kind of more philosophical [00:14:00] answer to the why, but it's just everybody who works here really believes in what it is that we're doing and the model that we've established. and so the why of it is that we, want there to be a home for artists who don't want to do all those things that you just described,
who Mm-hmm.
have to up to whoever to get on the playlist or pay whatever X amount or jump through whatever hoops it takes to get there.
You know, We want there to be a place for artists like that. And that really is the y of it at the end of the day. And for, all the discussions that we have, internally and have had over the years, the core of it has always been like, what's for artists And we want to do what it is that's best for artists and that that's gonna help.
And that's why. The baseline of what makes Bandcamp hasn't really changed.
the rev share to artist, all those things, it's all been the same and it's all been constant. And that's really the answer to why,
Aaron: what are the trends that you've been seeing it's pretty common knowledge that, when streaming took hold, that's kind of like, you're just [00:15:00] completely throwing away Pandora's Box.
There is no box anymore. It's like it is out there. as the music consumer, when you can pay one low price to get almost any song, any time, anywhere, you can't go back from there. So how what does it look like on your end? Because on the, on the artist's end, we are on the Titanic for sure.
So I was just wondering, being, a prominent, digital records store, how that looks on your end.
Edward: like,
I mean, engagement has been steady and it has
Aaron: yeah.
Edward: steady and consistent since I've here.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Edward: Been enough that the platform is, profitable and sustainable.
there hasn't been any concern on that front. There's stuff that we'd like to do that hopefully we're gonna launching over the course of this year.
A couple
functions. But it is a healthy, robust community still. And has fortunately been, steady the whole time. We're doing our best to keep AI music out of the platform.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Edward: A statement on the site that says that You can't use music on Bandcamp to train
ai. so, you know, [00:16:00] pushing back against that. I mean, I guess the short answer is more than enough people are still coming into the record store to keep the record store on and doors open and,
you know, you also touch on something that I think about a lot. We're probably on the same page with our concerns about music industry in general. And, one of the things that struck me as I was thinking about coming on to talk with you today is just how do you convey to just the fan, someone who doesn't work in the music industry, someone who doesn't make music for a living, the notion that they have the power to change the music industry, by which I mean they can make the conscious choice. To move away from these other models that aren't profitable for artists and musicians and consciously choose to, obviously, I'll say Bandcamp, but I'll also say, walk to their local record store
or, you know, a service that in general pays more out to the artist. And I don't know the answer to that question. And that's part of what [00:17:00] the drive of my job is, is how do you get the message out to people that you can make a difference just by changing this one habit and get enough people to make that change to make the business more equitable and sustainable.
Michaela: I think that's such an essential question. one part of the solution to me is education is sharing as much as possible, which is what, the root of this podcast is of pulling. The curtain back on so many things, which the music industry is, built on mystique and faking it till you make it.
so it's not always a popular idea, but when artists start communicating to their fans more directly of like, this is the reality of what it is to be an artist in today's industry and economy. And breaking down like what the system is, because you're not gonna convince people to choose the less convenient option unless they deeply care and [00:18:00] understand the implications of their habits.
Edward: Yeah,
Michaela: And I really think the only way people do that is. When they learn from the artists that they care about. But a lot of the music industry is let me look like I'm really successful.
Edward: Right.
Michaela: Thankfully, we've been seeing like so many more people on seemingly successful levels since Covid.
I really talking about, Hey, the numbers don't add up.
Edward: Right,
Michaela: When you're on a bus tour, we're still bleeding money
Edward: right.
Michaela: nobody's living off of streaming. Or maybe some people are who lucked out and beat the algorithm, but I personally think that that is a big part of the answer sharing more and more and trying to get people to understand our habits, create our world and our culture.
And the most convenient, easiest thing I. Sometimes is really destructive. So the only way that we can make those changing decisions, I mean, we deal with it too. Like we're artists who our entire livelihood is, from making music or sharing music. but we're [00:19:00] also music fans, so we have to like, then make decisions.
Well, it's pretty awesome to have every song ever recorded on my phone, but to be totally honest, and I'm gonna be really honest, even an extra layer because as an artist you fear, oh, if I speak out about certain platforms or like the big bad people gonna hear it somehow and then bury my music in the algorithm that I'm never gonna be able to like.
Edward: for sure. Yeah,
Michaela: I paid for Spotify for years and I. stopped doing that this year because I was just like I've had a whole change of heart in the past couple of years of I got outta my record deal because I didn't want a company to own my masters anymore. And all of these things, it puts you outta the system so you don't play the game anymore.
So you're gonna face those consequences. But at the end of the day, I think as consumers, as fans, as artists, we all are faced with hard decisions of what kind of world we wanna participate [00:20:00] in. And that's a big part of it. I think having these discussions is a big part of it to understand oh, it's so convenient to just go on Amazon and order this book, but I know these authors I really want them to see those dollars.
And I know that bookstore that I love, and I don't want them to go bankrupt, so I'm gonna make the. Least convenient choice and order it, and then drive 30 minutes across town to pick it up and like mm-hmm.
Edward: Yeah,
Michaela: super hard. But that's the culture that I want to preserve in this world.
Edward: I agree with, that you said, and I, try to make when you were talking about. Purchasing the book. That's something that I've very consciously done over the last four or five years. You've got shout out word bookstores in Brooklyn. Like, Everything that I want to get, I'll order through their website.
They make it very easy and go walk and pick it up. And
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Edward: though working in the music industry, I mean, I, buy tons and tons and tons of records just for that exact thing that you're saying. I bring all that up. Just say I absolutely relate to what, what you're saying and also how difficult it can be to do [00:21:00] sometimes, because sometimes I am at that book on Words website and I'm like, oh, it's like $7 cheaper on Amazon.
And it's like making
Aaron: Yeah.
Edward: conscious hard choice to do
Aaron: to do it.
Edward: Get the difficulty of it.
Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. Like, And for me, I left Spotify years ago, and if you've listened to a few episodes, you probably heard that we lived in Brooklyn for a long time, and now living in Nashville for a decade plus, there's this thing about, I'm gonna equate like car culture with
Edward: Sure.
Aaron: culture in the sense that it's like you just breeze through everything.
Where, like in New York, even if you live near the train, you still have to get dressed and get everything on and walk at least five minutes. you know, when somebody says, oh, it's a five minute walk to the train, you're like, wow, you live like right next to the stop. Um, you know, But there's this like intentionality and effort that goes into every step.
Of life, walking to the bookstore and on the way you might see this neighbor or this neighbor or this person that you see,
Edward: Right.
Aaron: that has a commute. At the same time, there's these little micro interactions and these micro [00:22:00] like every activity is much more of an event
Edward: Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron: your day, and there's this intentionality and like tangibility to life rather than like, I've noticed here where it's like you get in your car and you drive somewhere and you park in the parking lot and you go into the one store that you're going to, and then you walk out and get in your car and it's very compartmentalized
Michaela: and you're protected from having to interact or encounter.
Aaron: Yeah. And so I guess it's, I'm having this kind of long-winded semi like, stream of conscious nostalgic moment for like, it's this mindset shift. being intentional with what you do, what you support, and the life that you create. I think it takes slowing down, which from my judgment and my experience, has greatly improved the quality of my life.
Whether it's buying a book or being intentional about going to the farmer's market to get this specific thing or you know, something that I found was like much more baked into my life in New York City.
Edward: sure,
Aaron: Um, But I just wonder like it, it seems like a daunting task to convince the public as a whole like, Hey, the water over here is really nice.
Edward: [00:23:00] Right, right.
Aaron: check this out. I'm wondering if you have that sense of responsibility or something in that vein, being that you are on the editorial staff for this.
Edward: A little bit of it. I would say kind of what supersedes that for me is what I want to do with, I'm not doing this intentionally, but as I'm talking, I'm realizing this answer's gonna kind of bake. The two things that we've talked about together so far seeing all this great music that's on Band camp. to get that in front of people in as many different ways as we can. So if you're the kind of person who likes to read a 3000 word piece on the techno scene in Beijing, we've got that for you. We've also got it as a radio show. We've also got it as a two minute Instagram reel. And so my thinking isn't quite as much on choices people can make.
'cause that is weird. Coming from a platform, you've got a obvious self-interest. And so it's gets
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: trickier to do. But my thinking is if I can get enough of this cool stuff in [00:24:00] front of people on a regular basis, whether they're tripping over it on Instagram or they're seeing it on Bandcamp, or they're hearing it on the radio or something, the hope is that eventually a light bulb will go off and they'll think this cool stuff that I've discovered is coming to me. From Bandcamp, I should spend more time on Bandcamp.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: more time checking out and seeing what bandcamp's about and buying it. And so, you know, my way of doing what you're talking about is just letting the artists speak for themselves and platforming the artists and getting cool music in front of people
hoping that that'll do the work.
And hoping that that's somewhat more convincing or compelling to people who don't want to think about of the music industry. They just
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: cool stuff,
Aaron: hearing you talk and, you know, we have lots of friends that are on the, music journalist side, and so we're aware of the realities of that industry currently that is, also not thriving. just holding a lot of empathy for your situation of being a journalist out of record source, essentially, which is very shaky ground.
It must take a lot of creativity and [00:25:00] agility on your end to find what works and find what resonates and find where the traction is, I would imagine.
Edward: in response to that I'll, say I am incredibly lucky and much more fortunate than many of my peers
Aaron: Mm-hmm. are Mm-hmm.
Edward: stop,
my job is relatively secure. I'm taking care of, so I, have it,
Aaron: Mm-hmm. ignorance about, how well I have it. And so with that comes the responsibility of. I've got this platform that a lot of people don't have and is very shaky ground and like, how can I use it the best way I can to get much music in front of people and as much cool and off the beaten path music in front of people as I can.
Edward: that, you know, where, editorial staff of four total, it's three editors and uh, design director
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Edward: And in our editorial meetings, a big part of what goes into what we cover is every other website gonna cover this? And if they are, then why are we like, there's no
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Edward: this popular, we love this very popular artist.
This actually [00:26:00] just came up in the meeting we just had, it's an artist who I happen to like, who I'm not going to name. I like their music a lot.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: know that every other publication is gonna cover this record. And so it's not what band camp's for. And so it's Being as, fortunate am, it creates a greater sense of responsibility to make sure that like we're shining the spotlight on artists who need it, giving opportunities to writers
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: writers pitching me all the time and I'm always game to like, give someone else their first shot and give them a chance and it's like, it makes you more aware of that,
Michaela: yeah, and that's such a unique position to be in, as far as I understand, because I feel like I've seen in the last several years and heard from other friends who are music journalists of how much. Rolling Stone Magazine used to be like at the forefront of Discovery, and now online Rolling Stone, rolling Stone Country, like all these publications It's like, well, they depend on the artists that they're writing about, or the band that they're writing about to already be a certain level of popularity to drive clicks to [00:27:00] their publications. So the chances of them writing about completely unknown artists or new bands has diminished over the years as their need for advertising dollars and clicks has increased, and that they've started to depend not on just their audience, but the audience of the people that they're writing about, or the bands that they're writing about.
Edward: because Band Camp is selling music, you're not relying on advertising dollars, so you have a little more freedom. Is that what I'm understanding?
that's true. And I, you know, the hope with a publication like rolling Stone or some of the other larger ones is that you've gotta do the story on big name artists, but hopefully you can use some of that shoulder content to throw a name in front of people that they
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: And I get, I subscribe to like 9 million magazines because that's the demographic that I'm in.
it is kind of the same thing, like
[00:28:00]
Edward: you have to cover this artist on Bandcamp daily. We have no one above us saying are the artists who are driving the bottom line. So you've gotta put them on the homepage. If anything, we find the inverse to be true. Those artists are gonna sell a ton of records anyway so, you know, they don't necessarily need our help or we can find spots to kind of put them. Like any publication we do take a look at at the end of every month, all the stories that we ran in the previous months, which one did well. But we do it in terms of, oh wow. That story that we did on there was a period of time where avant garde classical music. For some reason those stories were doing really well on the site.
we kind of like steered the ship in that direction. But that wasn't based on someone above us telling us to do that. It was based on Oh wow. these people are reading, there's a whole audience for this kind of music that we didn't know was out there. every time we run a story on Algar, classical music, they're reading it.
We should do more on that. So it's a little bit more led by, what the readers are, responding to. But yeah we've, we've been lucky in that regard too. we don't have to answer it. [00:29:00] Anyone in terms of what we, what we publish.
Aaron: I totally understand steering the ship towards a a batch of articles that are resonating. That's where the interest is at the moment. like you had mentioned, if you, your, mission is to get people.
Talking about this type of music, this scene, this group. Like of course follow that. follow where the Tinder is. kind of Want to do a little bit of a pivot towards what is coming, what's next? you know,
Edward: Historically terrible at, this. I knew you
Aaron: Yeah.
Edward: I knew you were gonna ask this, and it's just like,
Aaron: this will be episode somewhere around episode 1 0 8 nobody knows.
You know, The only thing we've been able to uncover through all of these conversations is that nobody knows anything and we're all, shooting in the dark. And I think we all feel that definitely artists feel that. And there's a lot of. From our side disenchantment, because it's becoming readily apparent that labels also feel that.
Edward: yeah. Yeah.
Aaron: and so you have these labels that are demanding that they own your art to sell it, but they don't really have any kind of creative plan to monetize that, to get it in front of people. I [00:30:00] wonder, because you guys are a record store, but also like, in a way, you're kind of acting as a distributor because it's so accessible for artists to get their music up there from their living room.
And then, you know, you and your team are writing articles about these, in a way you're acting as a distributor as well, so I wonder if you sense any kind of promising wins or anything.
Edward: I mean, there's always crazy success stories because things, catch on that, necessarily expect, and that, defy the overall. You know, Whether
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: I mean, I'm about to cite all these examples and you know, sort of realizing that I don't necessarily know whatever mechanics were behind these records.
And so,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: so I'm not gonna do that. But um, because, because I could out somebody and then little do I know that there was some like secret money campaign that blah, blah, you
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
of course.
Edward: Yeah,
but we do see there are genres on Bandcamp that do staggeringly well
that are pretty far outside the mainstream.
So like dungeon synth
[00:31:00] is Mm-hmm.
those are artists who are like filling reasonably big rooms when they come to play dungeon Synth sounds exactly like you would think it would sound, it's, you
Michaela: okay. Mm-hmm.
Edward: Tolkien esque synth music. That music sells really well on the site and it's got its
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: fan base, so much anymore, but like nine or 10 years ago it was a vapor wave
not gonna hear that on the radio. It's not gonna be on the cover of any magazine. But there were labels on Bandcamp that were selling thousands and thousands of copies because it had a small niche devoted, dedicated fan base. And so there's always those pockets of things that are thriving completely outside the larger music ecosystem because of they've found their pocket of fans, you know? I'm hopeful that, that that's gonna continue, you know, I don't know what the next vapor wave or the next dungeon synth or the next whatever is gonna be. we had a moment when Prague was doing really well on Bandcamp.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. like Prague metal bands, and anytime we ran a story on Prague, it would sell tons of copies of Prague records.
Edward: So, like, I'm [00:32:00] hopeful that, that stuff still pops and I think it's going to continue to pop. Yeah, that's maybe the most articulate answer
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, It's it, it's a hard thing to answer with, any kind of certainty. But I love data. I keep a lot of data on myself and what I do, just because I mean, I'm a Virgo, so maybe it's like the concreteness of like, these are numbers and these are trends and, you know, I can interpret them however I want, but like, being able to have that concrete data of we write these articles and it sells this many records is, quite an asset to be able to have access to.
Edward: I nerd out on that stuff all the time. We have a Friday column called Essential Releases
Aaron: Mm-hmm. the members of the editorial staff. And it's something that I came up with because I just wanted the staff to be able to write about whatever they wanted to write about.
Edward: everybody has to pick their record by Wednesday.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: goes up on Friday, but I. For sure on Saturday am sneaking into the Bandcamp backend to see how many copies of the records I wrote about,
Aaron: Yeah.
Edward: many people bought them or how many it's fun to see that and not in
Aaron: Yeah,
Edward: like weird, ego driven way.
It's just
Aaron: [00:33:00] yeah.
Edward: you're getting to see that connection happen in real time. You're getting to see, you know, there's a graph in the back of the artist page and it's fun to go in there on a Saturday and see the line like this, and then see it go up like
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: you wrote
Aaron: Yeah.
Edward: we nerd out on that data all the time.
Aaron: I can imagine being somebody that has dedicated decades of your life to writing about pants that is a fan of music that you dedicated your life to, like grabbing people by the shoulders and be like, listen to this band. This is cool to be able to see concrete evidence like that. I would imagine it's either like really reaffirming of your tastes or like a real big wake up call.
Edward: Oh, I've had, oh, believe me. I've definitely had the latter happen a
Aaron: Yeah.
Edward: where I've written about or put something, a new and notable. I'm like, man, everybody's gonna love this. And then the next day I'm like, oh, what happened?
Aaron: What do you mean?
Edward: yeah,
Aaron: Maybe the link was broken. I don't know,
Edward: for sure
it's but wins. not all.
Michaela: Also, I wonder if on the journalist side and especially in this endeavor, like how often you really feel the real life impact that you have on [00:34:00] artists' lives because that does make a massive difference. Like you guys are in a position of power I've thought about that a lot.
I remember, my record that I put out in 2019 wXPN in Philadelphia, like came on board was so supportive and I just really saw how directly that changed things for me in Philadelphia. I'd never played a show there and all of a sudden I had all these Philly fans solely because a DJ at the radio station liked it enough that they supported it.
And it's like you can get really power trippy. You could, but also it like, has such a human impact when you vouch for something and you share it that really can change artists' lives or at least their bottom line for the year or Whatever their trajectory is, because it really does impact.
If all of a sudden, okay, I got this band cap writeup and I sell, a thousand records or [00:35:00] even a hundred records holy shit, now I've got some money in the bank and I can go record more. So you have like all of this stuff, I think we can get further and further removed from as everything is living out on our computers and our phones, but it really translates to real life impact on artists.
And so I'm curious how much that's present in your mind as a journalist and in this endeavor.
Edward: Constantly.
you know, we were just joking a little bit about affirming or denying kind of my taste when it puts it up there. But it is very top of mind to me the impact that it could have on artists. And I will say that all of us on the Bandcamp daily editorial staff are incredibly, both humble and grateful for that.
Because we do get emails, the next day or the day after something, or I do, I.
I get a lot of dms. My favorite kind of music is hip hop and underground hip hop. And I'm dealing with, a lot of artists via dm. I will, hear from them the, day after, the week after we wrote something and it just be like, that was huge for us.
or they don't even have to contact
Aaron: [00:36:00] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Edward: That's huge. And I don't think any of us ever take that for granted. And I think that everybody's on the staff right now.
That's like a motivating factor is being able to, do that for other artists. And I, feel confident speaking on behalf of everyone on the editorial stuff. I know that that really is very top of mind
Michaela: Mm-hmm. very much, whatever. Currency we have who we choose to put that behind. That's a
Mm-hmm.
Edward: key ingredient in that
Aaron: Mm. Yeah, I think I've kind of picked up on that as an ethos coming from band camp as a whole. Especially when you guys started doing like the Band Camp Fridays thing the music that I have up there, the original music is mostly music that I've written for sync and for placements on tv.
And I really only release music when it has been placed. I will get around to releasing, you know, albums just to release an album sometime, but I, I do have some music on band camp and I, when you guys first started doing that, I remember specifically like that first band, camp Friday, it was like, [00:37:00] oh, wow, maybe it was because the pandemic there was less going on and people were much more present.
But like, that one paycheck I got from that one day was really helpful,
Edward: Yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Aaron: what was communicated to me subconsciously, or like undertone wise is by instituting something like Bandcamp Friday, which if people don't know it's, Bandcamp waives their fees.
They don't, take a commission on that day and all of the money goes to the artists, which is incredible. It's this understanding and this ethos that we are all in this together that like Bandcamp saying like, Hey, we wouldn't exist if there aren't artists to make
Edward: Yes.
Aaron: music. And artists don't have time to make music if they don't make money from their music.
And so we work together here. And then I hear you speaking from the editorial end of like, we need bands to write about, bands need us to write about them. And there's this understanding of like, hey, we're all part of an ecosystem here and we all need to work together to keep this thing floating.
And if we do work together, I think it, will stay afloat and it can still thrive. I've always said, you know, since I was, born in the, the mid eighties and so in my lifetime, the medium that music has been [00:38:00] released on has changed frequently. Like every six years or so, there's something new.
the bright spot in this whole streaming thing to me has been. I don't see where it goes from here necessarily. every iteration a release medium has been more convenient and more convenient. I don't think you can get more convenient than any record anytime, anywhere in your pocket.
And so I'm hoping that now the industry can find some bedrock to restrengthen, to regrow, to regenerate around that stability in a way of releasing. And so again, it's just a long way of waxing poetic of like, I think we're all in this together the more we see that and the more we find ways to work together, there is a possibility of, rebuilding this to the, greatness that it was in 1997 when, one song would set you up for
Edward:
there's slivers of hope and even little things like I mean, this gets cited all the time, but I, think there's some validity in it. The fact that You know, Vinyl sales are, at an all time high now
Aaron: Mm-hmm. into the margins around vinyl, et cetera, et cetera.
Mm-hmm.
Edward: we all know it's really dicing whatever. But to me, just [00:39:00] from a symbolic standpoint, what that indicates to me, even things like people going out and buying mega pop records or whatever, is there some kind of subconscious pivot to like, slowing down a little bit, like I'm intentionally going out and buying this thing. And, if the economics aren't all the way there yet, just the idea that we can have every song that you want in your pocket all the time. And yet we are still seeing little pivot in this other direction of physical media and physical whatever, doing so well.
And even if media is not necessarily the answer, hopefully it's reflective of a mindset of people who are looking for something that's not that total ease of convenience all the time.
Michaela: Yeah. I wanted to ask because this podcast is about, the base of it being creative and building a life on art, and you obviously are creative in your writing, and then now have a position that's, you're using your creativity in lots of different ways and also reflecting the creativity of [00:40:00] others.
How has that been? Changed over the years as the way that you do consume the creativity others. As you're listening to music on three different mediums to then write about it and be inspired by it. How has that impacted your own creativity?
Edward: That's a good question. If anything, it's. sort of stressed me out more because when I started doing this in 98, 99, 2000, you would get x number of physical CDs in the mail that were promos to listen to,
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Could just listen to those promos and that was it. Now there's a bottomless well of music, you know, over the course of any given day, I get probably a hundred, 225 records sent to me.
Edward: That's no exaggeration.
Michaela: my gosh. Yeah.
Edward: And it has stressed me out because it's hard for me to just be totally indifferent. Every one of those 125 emails represents an album that somebody made and put
Aaron: [00:41:00] Mm-hmm.
Edward: And you know, one of the ways it's changed it is I've just had to really zero in on stuff that I.
I am passionately interested in, and usually what that is, is something that's gonna, I don't know, either promise me something I haven't heard before or take me in a new musical direction or,
to answer your question it's changed by causing me to hone in a little bit more and realize that unlike in the past, I can't hear it all and make a decision.
I just have to hear as much as I possibly can.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: the other hand, there's a lot of systems that I've had in place now for 11 or 12 years that still working for me. So, you know, When I get promos sent to me I'm still downloading the MP threes and I'm still putting them in a playlist organized by street date so that I'm listening to every album that's coming out a month in advance.
So,
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Edward: I. Hang up, I'm going to resume from where May 25th and just play through it. And then something catches my ear, hopefully, and then I'll be like, oh, what's that?
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: kind of how I,
do it, is just I
Aaron: [00:42:00] Cool.
Edward: organized by, by playlist and try to listen to as much as I can. Even in that, the stuff that makes it to that playlist is a set of parameters that I know I'm gonna like. So,
Michaela: Mm.
Edward: you know, it's caused me to be a little more structured in that regard. Just writing and you both probably know it, being musicians for as long as you have, it's the same thing being a writer.
I've been writing for almost 30 years at this point.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Edward: that you know, you've used before, but it's deadline and you have to get it out, And what I've been trying to consciously do is look for other writers who I really like, even in other mediums, and I'll read a bunch of their stuff before I have to go write something.
Not to copy off of them, but just to like spark some new creativity in me to think about how I'm approaching I'm writing in a different way. And I try to keep a steady, you know, watch a ton of movies. I go see art in New York. I try to keep all that flowing on a regular basis, so as not to stagnate, I mean, I still stagnate,
but
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, of [00:43:00] course.
Edward: stave it off at least.
Aaron: Yeah. Amazing. I have one kind of final
Edward: Hmm.
Aaron: I don't mean to ask this to like get you in trouble, but you say you get like a hundred to 125 albums a day. and this kind of ties into like with music being word of mouth and you know, recommendations coming from friends, how much do publicists play a role in what you do?
Do you have publicists that you work with that you trust that like you see their name pop up, you're like, I'm gonna check out whatever they send me. Because on our end there is definitely a question from the artist's end of like. is a publicist worth it? It used to be like, yes, you absolutely need a publicist.
And it's like, do you need a publicist now? And I don't if this is gonna get you in trouble with, with people that send you great records, please.
Edward: this point. Yeah. I'm trying to think of how to like, I wanna give you an honest answer to the question. So a publicist for me, and I'm, to be clear to everyone listening, I'm only answering for myself. Other
Aaron: Yes. Right. and I guess I should the full disclaimer that your publicist booked this conversation with us,
Edward: exactly
Aaron: you know
Yeah. Whether we wanna own it or not. We are on the journalist side [00:44:00] and we do deal with publicists and we, love them. We're very grateful to them. Mm-hmm. So I wanna say that as a full disclaimer,
Edward: Here's here's what I'll say.
Something something can really really help.
getting something into my inbox in the
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Edward: half the battle.
then this is the God's honest answer. I don't necessarily dismiss or accept things based on who sent it to me.
this is another thing I'd say. I will open every one of those 125 emails and
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Edward: Them just goes bolded subject line into spam. I open all of them
Aaron: Mm-hmm. than of the publicist is looking at those couple blocks of text and seeing what I'm in for with that specific record.
Edward: unfortunately, a lot of that involves stuff that artists understandably don't necessarily want to do. in a bio or a press release. And I kind of, a thing that I always say is just a press release. It's just to like, get people's attention because I will.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Edward: through and I see referencing other artists that I know that I like, as much as [00:45:00] we understand as journalists that artist is their own thing.
You know what I mean? Like Seeing
Aaron: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Edward: isn't gonna, it's just giving me a reference point
Aaron: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Edward: Wait, this is like, a avant gar take on Chicago footwork or something. I like that kind of music. I've never heard of this artist before. I will take this
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Here. So, The benefits of a publicist is someone encapsulate you're coming from, what
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Edward: make it really punchy in an email and get it into my inbox. That is a huge plus. And I get emails directly from artists I've got email just this morning that was just, Hey, here's my new record. Check it out with the Bandcamp link. And I'm like I don't know who you are. I don't know what this sounds like. a publicist who can tee it up in that way and really contextualize it in a way that even lets me know more than their name.
It's their ability to get that across in a short amount of time. I do pay attention to
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: think about how, we can say gatekeepers and yes, that is a thing, but also people need filters. being on this side, it's helpful to have filters. you know, I [00:46:00] remember years ago when I first started putting out records and I was at this music camp thing, and the guy who ended up being my radio promoter for many years someone asked him like, would you take on someone like me?
This person was like, middle of their life, had a different career, was not going to be giving up their day job anytime, but was putting out music for fun and asked like, could I hire you to be my radio promoter? And he was like, I don't mean to be mean, but no, because my reputation is I'm not just taking on stuff for money.
I have to make sure that every project that I take on is one that I fully believe in and are of artists and people who, this is their livelihood. that doesn't mean you can't have a day job. But where it's clearly not a hobby project. And I remember that the woman was like taken aback by it.
And he was like, listen, my, success of getting the projects on the radio is dependent on these program directors trusting my taste and trusting what they're getting from me [00:47:00] not because everyone's an asshole, but because there's so much music.
Edward: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Michaela: So it's kind of that double-edged, like everyone has a chance and that's wonderful, but then some of these filters are really important because you don't have time to listen to a hundred albums a day.
Like you need some touch points to be like, okay, they sent me that and I trust them and I know, I'll take a listen.
Edward: Yeah.
Michaela: now, after putting out five records myself, I have relationships with journalists and DJs that I can email and be like, Hey, because now they know me and they know my music.
But 10 years ago. I understandably would not get a response like,
Edward: I'll also say not exactly to your point, but it's something that popped in my head as, you were kind of describing the cycle of the whole, artists, don't just get one chance and then that's it. I can think of a band who historically I never liked their music. And then, they put out a record two years ago that was incredible. I [00:48:00] try to not be like well, I know that's not for me. Like, I'll always give an artist who's been out there a while and another shot.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. it just song two or three and I'm still not feeling it, probably will wait for next album cycle.
Edward: But
Michaela: Yeah.
Edward: constantly being open to the fact that like, I haven't liked what this person has done before, but I've got five minutes to give this one a shot. Let's see.
Aaron: That reminds me just of a, Little tidbit of a story. pretty sure. The book is called Music Factory, and it's about pop music and it talks about Motown and spends a lot of time talking about the Swedes and all of like the pop music that comes out of Stockholm.
there's an anecdote about ACE of Bass and I blank on producer's name, but they sent him a cassette and he put it in and he's like, oh, I hate this. And the cassette wouldn't eject from his car. So every day on the way from his house to the studio, ACE of Bass would come on and it was, I saw the sign and it was something like three months later he turns on his car and he's driving but he heard like one little change and he is this is great.
And he call and he calls them in three, four months later. And Ace of Bass becomes [00:49:00] Ace of Bass. Thank God know, because I love Ace of Bass. Yeah, me too. I love that. I definitely called the radio station as a kid and was like, play ace of Bass.
Edward: I think we just solved the music industry. Send
Aaron: Yeah,
Edward: that they can't eject from their
Aaron: exactly. Yeah.
Michaela: like it.
Edward: when Radiohead did okay, computer, when they mailed out the promos to all the critics, they mailed it in a, and this is how old it is in a
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: that was crazy glued shut.
You couldn't open the disman. You just had to, that was the only thing you
Aaron: Oh, amazing.
Edward: it was in
Aaron: Whoa.
Edward: vibe. Yeah.
Aaron: That's awesome. You know, And then fast forward to nowadays, and you two all of a sudden just the album just shows up in your iTunes and it becomes a joke for everybody for the next season. Everyone's like,
Michaela: don't force this on me. Yeah.
Aaron: Oh, oh man. Jed Edward, thank you for taking time to sit with us today and share.
Edward: really appreciate it. Yeah.
Aaron: we end our episode with questions that I would love to have your take on, it's a kind of choose your own adventure. It's either. Something that somebody has told you along the way that has resonated with you about your [00:50:00] creativity, about what you do, or conversely, it could be something that you would tell 20-year-old you that was just getting into the music industry.
Edward: I'll take the second option.
the first thing I would tell a 20-year-old me, just in a more direct way. Quit drinking about five years before you eventually actually quit drinking.
Michaela: Good advice for all of us.
Edward: of Yeah.
heartache.
you know, I think the other thing, I'd say this to 20-year-old anyone who wants to do this? I'm gonna thread it back to what we talked about, this is true. idea of gratitude and awareness of why you're doing what you're doing. I don't know, if you wanna get into this lane and your only goal is to shine a spotlight on yourself I think you might wanna reevaluate what you're doing. in this specific lane, I'm not talking about
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: in
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: you know. you should be driven by a love of wanting to help get other people's music out there and a belief that like this stuff is important. when I was in my twenties, was still very much driven by that same idea and just I would say to 20-year-old me or 20-year-old, anyone [00:51:00] like, hold onto that as sort of the forefront of why you're doing what you're doing and hold onto that idealism and belief of getting music you think is great to other people.
you know, it sounds very like flowery and altruistic, but part of the reason why I'm saying it is because you both know this, and now I know I can curse on here. the industry's a motherfucker.
Aaron: Yeah.
Edward: like
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: if you're not. Doing it for a reason like that, that you really believe in, you're gonna get beaten down and never wanna get back up.
having something like that as a North star, I think is really helpful,
I think maybe dodged the question a little bit, but that's true.
Aaron: No, I think that's, no, it's absolutely perfect. Poignant.
Edward: I'll throw this last thing, and I know we're over time so you can just kill this in the
Aaron: Please.
Edward: um, there's a band I'm thinking of right now who, I started seeing them in Brooklyn they played for five people. And
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: about them and wrote about them and wrote about them.
And they are an arena act Now they're not an arena act because I wrote about them by any
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Edward: But is a sense of joy in finding an artist that young and just [00:52:00] being, not even in the sidecar, but a distant, them get bigger and bigger over the
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Edward: like fun in that and it's got nothing to do with me. It's
this band who I've always loved and knew was great. And it's great to see other people are getting just as moved by this as I have been. And those are the kinds of things that I think kind of keep you going.
Aaron: Definitely. It's what keeps us going too on the, musician, on the artist end for sure. Yeah. Yeah. J Edward, thank you so much for taking the time. a really great conversation.
Edward: it. Thank you so much.
Michaela: Thank you. See ya. Bye.
riverside_aaron_+ michaela_raw-synced-video-cfr_the_other 22 hours _0355: Bye.