Caitlyn Smith is a singer and songwriter who has released 3 records via Sony and is now releasing music independently, she has a publishing deal with Universal (UMPG) and her songs have been recorded by Garth Brooks, Dolly Parton and Kenny Rogers, Meghan Trainor, John Legend, Miley Cyrus, Avicii, Lady A, Rascal Flatts, and Chris Isaak amongst others, and she has been nominated or won a Critics Choice Award, ACM and CMT Music Awards. We talk to Caitlyn about not moving from a major label to independence, not believing in writer's block, everyone's horrible first drafts, telling a massive star that they line they came up with just isn't good, and a whole lot about the business of songwriting.
Caitlyn Smith is a singer and songwriter who has released 3 records via Sony and is now releasing music independently, she has a publishing deal with Universal (UMPG) and her songs have been recorded by Garth Brooks, Dolly Parton and Kenny Rogers, Meghan Trainor, John Legend, Miley Cirus, Avicii, Lady A, Rascal Flatts, and Chris Isaak amongst others, and she has been nominated or won a Critics Choice Award, ACM and CMT Music Awards. We talk to Caitlyn about not moving from a major label to independence, not believing in writer's block, everyone's horrible first drafts, telling a massive star that they line they came up with just isn't good, and a whole lot about the business of songwriting.
Get more access and support this show by subscribing to our Patreon, right here.
Links:
Click here to watch this conversation on YouTube.
Social Media:
All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 107, and this week we're featuring our conversation with Caitlyn Smith.
Aaron: Caitlyn Smith is a singer songwriter, mostly operating in the country pop world.
She's written songs. That have been recorded By who? Garth Brooks. Dolly Parton, Kenny Rogers, Meghan Trainor, John Legend aci. Miley Cyrus. Lady A Rascal. Flatts, Chris Isaac.
Michaela: Just to name some of them many more. Geez.
Aaron: On that, she's released three of her own records. All of those have come out on Sony, a major label, and she has just recently, as of a year ago, left that deal and started releasing stuff on her own independently, which we definitely touch on [00:01:00] in this episode.
Michaela: Caitlin has also been nominated or won awards from Critics Choice Awards, a CM. CMT Music Awards. She has toured with people like George Strait, Reba McIntyre, little big town, old Dominion, and has performed at festivals like Lollapalooza, ACL, Americana Fest.
Aaron: Quite the resume. So on this, we get into a lot of nitty gritty on the, process being in the writing room being a staff songwriter, as she says for, there's a lot of Nashville terminology and approach to this conversation.
So for those of you that are not in Nashville, I think we did like a pretty good job of Notating the conversation. Yeah. And adjusting. But you'll hear Caitlyn say staff songwriter a lot. So basically what that is, is that is your profession. Maybe you're getting like paid a salary or a draw from your publisher to be a writer.
You are a person that goes in and helps artists write songs that they want to write.
Michaela: Yeah. And we get to dig into the financial realities of that and how the industry has changed so much. How [00:02:00] streaming has. Honestly decimated the income for songwriters. And then of course we get into the more holistic emotional practice of writing and the importance of preparation for creative sessions, efficient use of time.
She loves a good commute, and it's really fun overall.
Aaron: Yeah. I had to ask the question. You know, When you're in a writing room with such big name artists like. How do you tell 'em that the line is just not cutting it? Like how do you not feel like an imposter to be like, you know, Miley, I just line just isn't cutting it.
So we get, we get into all that it's a wide reaching conversation, but as always, some of the things we touch on in the conversation come directly from the subscribers to our Patreon. It's because, as you know, they get advanced notice of who our guests are. You can submit your questions topic ideas.
Thoughts, whatever you'd like to let us know about the artists that we're gonna talk to, that is available to you, is also the sole way that we're able to fund producing this show, which takes a lot of resources, even for a relatively small show like our own. So if that sounds [00:03:00] intriguing. There's a link below in our show notes,
Michaela: and for those of you who are visual and really wanna see my tired eyes from being up so many times this past evening with our two month old baby every conversation is available on YouTube.
And if you're on YouTube, please hit that subscribe button as well.
Aaron: seems like nothing, seems like everybody says it, but it really does help us a lot. Please just hit that. With that. If you're listening on your phone, any device, just hit follow on that. All of these are like little tiny acts that really help us grow this show and reach new audiences, get new artists, get new ideas to share back with you guys.
But with that, here is our conversation with Kaitlyn Smith.
Michaela: you look so pretty and fresh
Caitlyn: Thanks. I took a shower. I got a shower this morning. Raleigh took the kids, so I got like time to put on makeup. What a blessing. I'm gonna
make a whole bunch of content today, you
guys.
Today's
the day.
Aaron: Yep.
Michaela: That is such a real thing. Whenever my manager is like, can you make a video or something? I'm like, it's [00:04:00] gonna be a while before I look presentable to put a camera on me at all. Mm-hmm. But I the podcast so often, just granted, our youngest is two months old and he was up like every hour last night.
Caitlyn: Oh, are you guys So tired? Oh
Michaela: it hasn't been that bad, honestly. It's, It's
Aaron: like a more subversive, tired to me with our first one, I was like, I am exhausted. I felt like a zombie, like my
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Aaron: heavy. this time I'm like, no, I'm on it. It's cool, it's fine. And then like, the more I think about it, I'm like.
I don't think I can string like more than two, two thoughts together.
Caitlyn: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For real. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I get it. Lack of sleep is like so huge y'all, and you're in it
right now, but the baby cave, you know, there's an end. There's an end to
it,
Aaron: exactly.
Michaela: yeah. So glad to finally have you on. Thank you for taking the time. And we always like to start with just how are you today and where are you overall, but [00:05:00] also like within your creative path.
Caitlyn: How am I today? Today I feel great. The sun is shining. I got a shower.
There's a lot of great things. I just got back from Salt Lake City this weekend. I played a couple shows at Sundance and Raleigh, and I got to go without the kids
and just have three and a half days of like, we could hear ourselves think and
that was amazing.
So I'm feeling pretty great after that. And where am I in my creative journey? Physically, I'm in Minnesota
We split time between the two cities and so creatively I'm in the kind of working on a new record mode, so I've been writing and recording and getting all of like the brainstorming, all the content and all of the things.
getting ready to get into a full record release mode later this year. So
that's
where I'm at.
It's kind of a lot.
Michaela: do, yeah. Yeah. Do you like that phase, this kind of brewing phase?
Caitlyn: Do [00:06:00] I like it?
There are
some parts that I love about it. getting in the writing room with people that I
love and making stuff up is one of my favorite places to be. So I
love doing that.
But this time around I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but I've done three records in the last eight years on a major label.
After the third record, I asked out of my label deal with Sony, and now I've been releasing stuff as an independent artist. so all of
this to say is, you know, I'm now in the boat of, doing all the things
right. Where I did have like a team around me. Now it's just like the juggle is very real
and so. You ask me do I love this phase? And I have a hard time like giving you an emphatic Yes. I love this phase because, because the juggle as an independent artist is It's a
lot. And so some Days I don't like it at all.
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Caitlyn: And um, you know, there are some days where I'm even like, ah, I wish I just wanted to be a songwriter and I could [00:07:00] just show up and write songs, but there's something inside my blood and guts and bones that wants to be an artist and loves to be an artist.
And so, I've gotta, you know, make records and put them out. And, because part of that, I just, gotta get it out. It's part of
my
process.
It's good and it's bad
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
Caitlyn: and I love it. And I don't.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really wanna hear more about, 'cause I think you and I went on a walk a year ago when your
Caitlyn: Yeah,
Michaela: Because I was not
Caitlyn: probably.
Yeah.
Michaela: youngest was I think three months
Caitlyn: Oh, little boy. And now He's full on running and
running the house, which is what
Michaela: He was like, yeah, he was sleeping the whole time um, back
Caitlyn: so nice.
Michaela: But I remember at that time you were getting out of your deal. You hadn't
Caitlyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Michaela: stuff on your own. And we were talking about it. 'cause I was also planning to get out of my indie label deal,
Caitlyn: Uhhuh.
Michaela: [00:08:00] yet. I've released a couple songs, but I haven't yet gone into a full album release mode on my
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Michaela: I'm, noticing I have like, so much decision fatigue because now
Caitlyn: That's real. Yes. Yes.
Michaela: like,
Oh, well we use the labels designer and we use the labels you know, like,
Caitlyn: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: and also like paying for everything yourself, which
Caitlyn: Yep.
Michaela: if you feel like in
Aaron: the moment rather than like, yeah, putting it on the account account.
That's the
Michaela: hard Yeah. is that when you have a deal with a record label, you're still paying for everything.
Caitlyn: Right.
Michaela: see it I mean, you can look at, reports,
Caitlyn: Yeah. You're not watching it come out of your bank account
every month. I'm going, oh, no. yeah, yeah. Or like on a credit card and like balancing interest and all that stuff.
yeah.
Michaela: remind myself like, in the long term, when you're in this for life, you will start making money sooner,
Caitlyn: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: like balancing how much you're investing of your own money and like making the decision to not wanna put your head in the sand and be like, I'll just let the [00:09:00] label own everything and rack up the debt.
there's pros and cons to each side. So
Caitlyn: totally.
Michaela: do you feel comfortable elaborating on like what you've seen so far, the pros and cons being now that you've gone through a little bit of releasing on your own?
Caitlyn: I would say at the end of the day I'm still feeling like the pros are outweighing the cons. the obvious cons are that you don't have a team of people around you. even like maybe all artists are like this, but I love to have a good deadline and someone like keeping that for me.
And When there isn't that solid deadline, I can. Fudge it a little
bit. So that's like, that's, a con,
I would say.
so there's less of like, oh, I gotta get this done tomorrow. There's less country music emergencies that are
happening when
right, which, let's be honest, there's no such thing anyways, but people invent it.
and I would say, I think the con is just feeling a little bit on an island
and feeling Like I'm in this journey, [00:10:00] pushing this boulder up a hill kinda by myself.
that's difficult. But I have seen these pros that Really magical, where when you are balancing it yourself and doing it all yourself, all of the small little wins feel so much more victorious.
Like, Because you just spent three hours trying to figure out your mailing list and getting it all laid out and, you just sent it to 5,000 people.
Like, and That's a really big deal. Like
those tiny little wins, you feel it better.
And I think even being able to release music independently, put it out there, and then shortly after you can see the money come back
Oh wow, this is cool.
Where when you're on a label, you put it out there not making,
you're the only one not making money out of everybody.
Michaela: Yep
yep,
Caitlyn: So that's
cool.
Michaela: Yeah.
Caitlyn: also the pro of it just being like on my own timeline and it being like really whatever I want. There's no voices being like, you should make it [00:11:00] sound more like the radio or you should not that I had that intense of voices.
' but I did a little bit of like, if you made this single sound more like the radio and then it creatively definitely changed how I made the music.
Where now I just can make whatever I want,
Michaela: Yeah, I
Aaron: was just which is that. when you started writing for this new record, did you know that you were gonna be out of your label deal? Or did you have this collection of songs and realize oh, I don't want to hand this over to a label, which was
Caitlyn: I,
Aaron: experience?
Caitlyn: oh well I guess the songs that are written recently, I knew. That's what was gonna happen. But I've also written a lot of songs now outside
of the deal because I've been outta the deal for a year so just even writing in that head space of like, this is completely my own thing.
But there are a few older songs too that I just love the songs and I had written before I got out the deal and I just was like, oh, I don't know.
So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Michaela: Like Erin was referencing for me, I wrote a record and [00:12:00] then recorded the record because the songs felt so personal
Caitlyn: Mm-hmm. about this like momentous time in our life
Hmm.
Michaela: becoming a mother and,
My mom's health and we recorded them here in our recording studio that Aaron built with his dad.
It all felt so like, this is mine. This is ours. I can't let company. Own it.
Caitlyn: Hmm. was kind of my changing decision where I think my
Yeah,
Michaela: was. Like, even with songs that felt meaningful to me. yeah, you have your songs, but like the recordings of them, 'cause of course you can always rerecord them or whatever,
Caitlyn: yeah,
Michaela: I felt kind of like, whatever.
company will own it and like, it's gonna help me get what I want out of this career path.
Caitlyn: yeah. this experience felt so much more like, this is so deeply personal
Hmm.
Michaela: cannot imagine losing my rights to it.
Caitlyn: Uhhuh?
Michaela: nameless man, because the label I was on was sold to another company.
So it wasn't even like, I know the owner [00:13:00] anymore. it felt so morally wrong to me too,
Caitlyn: Hmm.
Michaela: wait, money trumps. All of the time and creativity and experience and emotion and everything that we put into this creation.
Caitlyn: Hmm. trumps it all. They just get to own it just because they have the capital.
Michaela: That doesn't seem fair. Like where I understand people are like well, yeah, of course they're buying it. And I'm like, no. my structure of the equation now has shifted
I'm not accepting of. That's just how it is anymore.
Caitlyn: Yeah, totally. I feel that I don't really feel like I have anything to add to that. I'm like, yes.
Aaron: Yeah.
Michaela: Well, And your record that you did put out was so for me as a fan of yours so interesting because we change as artists and
Caitlyn: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: work can reflect depending on what kind of artists we are. So there are definitely artists out there who are like, we just keep with the times and put out [00:14:00] music that we think is, gonna do well
Caitlyn: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: whatever.
And then there's
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Michaela: that are like creating and evolving and their work is reflecting what's happening in their life.
And so that means that you're gonna lose some fans probably who maybe aren't resonating with that experience at that time.
Caitlyn: Yeah, yeah.
Michaela: gonna gain some fans I resonated so deeply with your new songs because they were so overtly about motherhood and family life, and that's exactly what I'm in right now.
So I think that's like an interesting, you know, when talking about not having any voices in your ears
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Michaela: you have any hesitation of going deep into that, of this is really my life right now.
Caitlyn: I don't think I had hesitation at all. I think with this new record, my compass for it is I really wanna release songs that I have lived lessons that I am learning. Things that are really true. I think.
you know, I started off this whole music career in [00:15:00] Nashville just as a songwriter, just writing for other people.
And so in that Scenario, like I've gotten really good at just putting on different hats and making up stories whether or not they're true to my life. And even on some of my records in the past, I've just released a song 'cause that's a great song, but I haven't lived that experience.
I've made It up in my head.
But it's not necessarily true. Or like, I'll release breakup songs, but I've been married for 15 years,
Caitlyn: there's a disconnect. I'm like, it's a good song. And so on this album specifically, I'm really trying to not just cut a song. 'cause it's a good song. I want it to be true to the place where I'm at in my life.
So that's a little bit new and I'm excited about it. a little bit of a challenge too, because, I do love the drama of the breakups and like the
drama that, like relational songs that I've written in the past can give you. And I do find that, like in my daily life right now, the drama is a lot smaller.
Like,
'cause I'm Dealing with like little [00:16:00] humans and you know, my marriage is in a great spot, so it's like, it feels a little what's the dramatic thing that I can write about, right now? But that's all right. I always think, if you can't think of anything to write about, you're just not paying attention.
Like, there's always something amazing that you can pull, Even if your life feels a little boring and mundane.
Michaela: Yeah. But there's people out there also who relate to that
Caitlyn: absolutely.
Michaela: yeah, I think about that all the time. 'cause in mundane of family life. The challenge of making that a compelling, beautiful story is really amazing. And it's also really relatable because that's most people's lives day in and day out.
Michaela: I feel like as a listener, I was so into the dramatic breakup songs because even like, we've been together 17, 18 years, but know, in a long relationship you have dramatic times as
Caitlyn: Yeah, for sure.
Michaela: I currently feel exhausted by those songs.
Caitlyn: Yeah. That's so true.
[00:17:00] That's amazing.
Michaela: like 25-year-old me like,
Caitlyn: That's amazing. Also, this mom's way too tired to go there emotionally.
Michaela: Yeah, so awesome. yeah.
Caitlyn: Can we
want, can we not?
Michaela: yeah. Yeah.
Caitlyn: That's so good. like, as you mentioned, like being independent now and like having to push this boulder up the hill like by yourself.
Mm-hmm.
Aaron: you're on a label deal or writing, like just trying to, when we're living this career that's based on our art, and we're trying to juggle like, and reign in and grab onto ambition and run with that.
There is inherently just, it feels like so much struggle all the time because there's like Yeah. drive. And just, no secret that the music industry is not the easiest that like Mikayla was saying, like a lot of people's lives, in my are like pretty chill,
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Aaron: I'll fully admit that like I'm in a phase of life right now where like could totally have a job that I just went to and then came home and I was done. There was
Caitlyn: Yeah. Right. Doesn't that sound to us in the music industry, we're like, [00:18:00] that sounds so nice.
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah,
Caitlyn: Some days Some days it does.
Michaela: yes. Yeah.
Aaron: You know, Just like having to constantly think like four steps ahead. Like, Okay, what comes next? Okay, so this fall, this is happening. I need to do this. I need to get this in line and like that
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Aaron: woo,
Caitlyn: yes, it is a lot. But also you, are, the way you are. Like you're an artist, right?
And if you were in those confines, you would probably die. So like there's a reason
why Your personality
is doing that, right. so
Aaron: maybe temp work is for me, you know? Maybe I maybe temper,
maybe it's like a month at a time, you know? just like Moonlight as a data entry specialist or whatever it's
Caitlyn: that's perfect.
That's perfect. Just.
Aaron: gimme 40 hours a week on a spreadsheet. I'll be like,
Michaela: you know what? I like that.
Honestly, going out to my studio. Yeah, that honestly sounds so fun. Just Oh my God. No. I've done data entry in a past life. I
Caitlyn: have done that and it is
two thumbs down.
Michaela: Okay.
Aaron: Thank
Caitlyn: I could attest. Horrible scenario. Not for me.
Aaron: yeah, I need to be put in checks sometimes. 'cause my, my head definitely goes [00:19:00] to like the grass is greener
Caitlyn: for for sure. I think that's human.
We all do it.
Aaron: Speaking of the grass is greener, I'm just like really admiring the room that you're in,
Caitlyn: Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Aaron: through the window. It looks
Caitlyn: Oh my gosh. Thank you. We,
Aaron: time now?
Caitlyn: yeah, so we spent three and a half years building this little home, uh, up in Minnesota So now we split time. We do, summers and also just seasons where we're like, get a little burnt out of Nashville. We were in Nashville like all the beginning of this year and we're like, okay, we need a break now.
And so it's kind of nice 'cause I can pop in there, create buzz around, meet people, and then come back home and kind of like get a nice unplug and reset, away from the chaos that is Nashville
and the music industry, which is nice.
but yeah, we love it. I'm watching the chickens out the window right now sunshine and it's adorable. No, the snow has melted.
Aaron: Is your husband also in the music industry?
Caitlyn: He is. So he has done a handful of things [00:20:00] in the music industry. is a songwriter. He plays in my
band as a guitar player and sings does demos and things like that. And so
does it all.
He's also
like my engineer when I'm like, what do we need to do in pro Tools to do the pilot?
Like
Aaron: yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Caitlyn: he always helps me. So that's really nice.
Aaron: like as a whole family, you guys do the back and forth.
Caitlyn: yeah, so it depends on the season. But we homeschool our older boys, 'cause we can kind of have this flexibility of like, okay, we're on the road in this season, or we're in Nashville this season, and kind of split, split it up. so yeah, we'll take the whole family and the dog to Nashville and do like. big chunk and then drive everybody back. It is a little chaotic right now, so we're still trying to figure out like our cadence. So like next week I'll go in for three days without the family
and just go right, and then come back here. And that's great too. What I like about that and taking trips away from the fam is that I can wake up and I can hear myself think,
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Caitlyn: And I can have like a morning.
That's not [00:21:00] like getting everybody ready and doing all the things right.
And I can just like
Sit and think of ideas and it's a really nice,
mom's vacation,
Michaela: Yeah. Working.
Aaron: Yeah.
Caitlyn: obviously I miss them,
but um,
Michaela: you don't have to add that. That's okay. Yeah.
Caitlyn: obviously I miss them, but yeah.
Michaela: Yeah.
I was just talking to a, friend yesterday who's a, singer, singer-songwriter, and just had her first baby and is navigating like, how am I gonna go on the road and how am I gonna do this?
And like, the deep mom guilt of leaving
Caitlyn: Hmm.
Michaela: that and like, how long is okay to leave and at what age is it okay to leave them? And like. were talking about, especially in this profession where everything feels like a choice. So it's not like we have
Caitlyn: Hmm.
Michaela: saying, you have to, fly here for the week because you're a lawyer or whatever.
Caitlyn: Right. say like, this is my job even though this is our job, it can feel like more of a choice. And I hear this so much more from who just feel so guilty [00:22:00] for
hmm. Yeah.
Michaela: have to remind myself and each other like, okay, well one, what's the different expectation for fathers?
Caitlyn: Hmm also like we're spending so much time with our children. It's
mm-hmm.
Michaela: to take a few days or even
Caitlyn: Yeah,
Michaela: it never feels good, but sometimes it does feel great to get a
Caitlyn: yeah, yeah,
Michaela: because we're still full people that need dads too. It's
Caitlyn: yeah,
Michaela: feel like really enjoyed my time away.
Caitlyn: yeah.
Michaela: that much time away. I don't get time away. Aaron never goes away.
Aaron: No.
Caitlyn: I used to be on the road I used to be on the road all the time and.
Aaron: Right before the pandemic, kind of 2019, I started pulling it back. So I'm mostly like our studio is 40 feet behind our house and so I'm mostly in here. I played a festival in South Carolina. this was like two years ago now. And I was supposed to stay for an extra day after we were playing the first day of the festival.
And I was like, oh, I'll just stay for the second day.
Caitlyn: yeah,
Aaron: A lot of friends playing. It'd be great, it'd be awesome. And I was like, yeah, like take time. I think our daughter was like 18 months at the [00:23:00]
Caitlyn: yeah.
Aaron: And after our set, you know, I was back where we were staying and it must've been like two in the morning.
I'm like, I'm good,
Caitlyn: ready to go. Yeah. like I'm ready to go home,
Aaron: just left, you
Caitlyn: dude.
Aaron: up the next morning, I'm like, sorry guys, I'm out. Gotta go.
Caitlyn: That is so real. funny 'cause you can, yeah.
Aaron: bought like a lawnmower blade. Yeah. I think it was like two in the morning.
I'm like. I need a new lawnmower blade
Caitlyn: Yep.
Oh,
I miss my grass.
Aaron: I know that like, I thoroughly lose all my like cool rock band cred, but
Caitlyn: Oh my gosh, That's So, cool.
It's so, because I do think like when you plan it out, you're like, yeah, I'm feeling overwhelmed here at home. I'm gonna plan it out, my days away. Schedule it great. But then when you're finally in it and you're like on day whatever, and you're like this does suck.
I do miss home. Like,
you're past off is like, this is gonna be fine. And then when you're, you're like, oh, I miss my
kids. dunno.
Michaela: both noticed that like, we need that much time to feel refreshed. We went to Miami for
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Michaela: anniversary for like, Three days, two days, two and a half days. Yeah. And we were like,
Caitlyn: [00:24:00] Yeah,
Michaela: like, wow, this is amazing to have like
Caitlyn: this is great.
Michaela: out
Caitlyn: Yeah,
Michaela: sit and read a book.
And then we were like, we're good. We can go back. We miss her.
Caitlyn: that's amazing. Honestly, For me, it takes class in an afternoon
and I'm like, oh, I'm a new person.
I had time away. Like,
Aaron: yeah. I ha I
Caitlyn: oh, it's so funny.
Aaron: free will. Like, I could just go and do that. Yeah. On the missing out I'm wondering about like the opposite side. Now that you
Caitlyn: Hmm.
Aaron: splitting your time
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Aaron: trips to come back to Nashville, do you feel like out of the mix, missing out on what's happening here?
Or do you still feel in involved?
Caitlyn: It depends on the day. Sometimes, I have some fomo and
sometimes I really miss the community. It's like if I have few weeks here where I'm not touching base in Nashville. I feel a little like sad. But then I pop into town and I write with the people that I love and get coffee with the other people that I love, and, I feel right back in it.
So I feel like I am split in the middle. Like some days I'm really like
Caitlyn: feeling disconnected and then [00:25:00] when I'm in it, I'm intentional about the time that I have and try and plug back in. So
Caitlyn: the juggle is real. I don't know.
Aaron: Yeah, obviously, we haven't experienced yet, but like, we lived in New York City for like 12 years before we came here, somewhere close to that. And I see the same thing between New York and in Nashville, where like it seems like you can stay in the mix without actually living in the town because everybody
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Aaron: busy and they have so many things
Caitlyn: Right.
Aaron: if you're coming to town every.
weeks Yes.
There are people that I love in town that I create a lot with that I don't see
Caitlyn: Yeah.
I do think there's a handful of people that don't even know. We, live in Minnesota like half the time,
Michaela: Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Caitlyn: that's
fine. Cool.
Aaron: yeah, exactly.
Michaela: Can you talk about a little bit of the brain management of writing? when you do go to Nashville and you have these designated rights and you're co-writing, versus when you're home in this kind of idyllic landscape and you have the beauty, but also the chaos of your children running
Caitlyn: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: do you have any like or things [00:26:00] that you need to do to be able to get in the head space to write in either place?
Caitlyn: Yeah. in Nashville I probably write three days a week.
And I love a commute. People think I'm nuts, but I'm like, if someone's like, I'm in Nolansville, and I'm like, yay, I get 40 minutes
in the car. It's bizarre. But I love that time, even if it's 20 minutes to drive Nashville that time to listen to music.
Or sometimes I just sing.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I have the radio off and I just make stuff up and sing into my phone and like, or just time to think and quiet, which is so nice. And so kind of having that ritual of free and post writing session in Nashville is really nice.
Caitlyn: And then I also Try to implement like a daily walk into my day. And that is just so good for my head space. I get really crotchety really fast. If I don't, I am like a houseplant. I need the sun, I need my water. And
like if I don't
Get [00:27:00] those things, I start to shrivel up for sure. And so even making sure like I'm getting outside in nature, I think that's both spaces, but I have to be more intentional about it in Nashville.
'cause we live in the, neighborhood.
And then here creating is, a little bit harder here. I try and think of the time here as like I try and fill my cup it's all the other things that creatively fill you like. Putting my hands in the garden or like spending time with the chickens or walking in our woods, like things that are just soul filling.
I feel like it all then can translate into writing. And then, you know, I've got our piano here and we've got like a little studio. And so like for me, I'm maximize like nap times god bless a nap time
for the baby,
that's like a solid couple hours to just do what I want and I try and do something creative if I can,
uh, In that time.
So two different head spaces for sure.
Um,
but I think they're both great. I love them both.
Aaron: Yeah. I love that approach of your cup and emptying your [00:28:00] cup, like that kind
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Aaron: relating it to, when I was touring all the time, that's how I viewed touring because like,
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Aaron: you know, so many hours of travel utilize that time as like. Intake. I'd listen to things, I'd read, things you've toured, you can't play with chickens or be in nature all that
Caitlyn: Nope.
You can.
Aaron: but I'd use that as intake, so that way when I got back to Nashville or New Yeah. were there, like that was like, I had all this inspiration, all that output.
And so
Caitlyn: And man, touring really inspires, I
think, going in New places and like, oh, that
is just like Soak all that in.
Aaron: I don't really have a drive to tour much anymore, but I have a real drive to
Caitlyn: Hmm.
Aaron: be in other places and like meet other people, see different ways of life. So I've just been trying to put it out there.
And so if anybody's listening just making a destination record of going somewhere, you know,
Caitlyn: Oh
yes.
Aaron: or Tahiti or, you know,
Caitlyn: That sounds nice. That's New Zealand. That sounds great.
I love it. Anyone wanna go to Italy?
I do. exactly. Um. But no, absolutely. Like of being able to interact with other people and see [00:29:00] different places and like see new
Yeah.
Aaron: is really inspiring.
Caitlyn: Yeah. I agree.
Michaela: hearing what you're saying about the different places I think you learn as you grow older and your life gets I don't wanna
Caitlyn: Hmm.
Michaela: but becomes more, you have more to take care of, more to
Caitlyn: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: Your creativity becomes more of your job, what you rely on.
I think about the responsibility of caring for it how that can be a real shift
Caitlyn: totally.
Michaela: you're younger, maybe you don't have a partner you don't have like. life responsibilities
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Michaela: can kind of flow, and you can do it when you want and you can do a right and spend all day.
Caitlyn: Yeah. the older you get, I think that's the shift is recognizing the responsibility to care for it
Wow. Yeah.
Michaela: need to do make sure I can make the space and the conditions to let this come to me?
Caitlyn: Yeah. Absolutely.
That's brilliant. I mean, even the thought of like, you don't wanna waste time [00:30:00] either. And so like if you're setting Monday, Wednesday, Fridays for your writing days,
you Wanna make sure
that when you walk in those rooms like. You are not just like, why don't like a
zombie?
Like That's time that you're spending away from your family,
or Maybe you're paying for childcare. Like, That also is
real, like, Cool, I'm paying for a babysitter
or my husband, you know? It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can't waste time here. Let's make something, quickly. But also that matters
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Caitlyn: real quick.
Michaela: I don't think she would mind me naming people, so I'm gonna take the risk and do it. But who's a great musician and songwriter here in Nashville and owns a vintage shop, she was telling me she has two children and she's been like really helpful to me and many of us transitioning into motherhood.
And she was sharing her experience of writing with Vanessa Carlton before.
Caitlyn: mm-hmm.
Michaela: Tristan had children and
Caitlyn: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: it was kind of like shocking to me. Like, I would go to a writing session with Vanessa and it would be like very like, let's get down to business. [00:31:00] We're writing, we'd like, do it efficiently be done after like three hours or whatever.
Caitlyn: Yeah. then I realized once I had kids oh, she's got a babysitter or she's got this.
Yeah,
Michaela: we gotta get the work done. actually, it's not a downer. It's actually really helpful it's a tightrope Creative work takes patience and time, but also keep it moving. Like it's
Caitlyn: Yeah,
Michaela: of constant like, okay, maybe we get to the end of three hours and we didn't get it. Let's go take our time and go on our walks and live our life. And then
Caitlyn: yeah,
Michaela: maybe that line that we are stuck on is gonna come
Caitlyn: yeah. Totally. the shower.
Michaela: You know something which.
Caitlyn: Which it always does. Why is it the
shower? I was like, ah, all the epiphanies happen
there.
Aaron: Yeah. But what were you saying about enjoying a, commute and like listening or singing and all of that? It made me think I guess I do that even though I don't have much of a commute, most of my rights happen here. But it's like, there's, like a preparation to like, get in the head space because time is
Caitlyn: [00:32:00] Yes. Right.
Aaron: That like, I think, and I'm, realizing this as I'm talking, I think like when I first got to parenthood, it felt a little bit of a, like a cram or a rush and all that.
And like I'm starting to realize that like, that preparation mentally is actually showing respect for the process and showing
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Aaron: It's like I'm gonna
Caitlyn: Oh, absolutely.
Aaron: as in this, as I can, like from the start because I respect this process. I respect like what can happen and what we
Caitlyn: Yes.
Totally. I love that.
Yes.
Aaron: So thank you. ' that was a stream of conscious realization of the whole process there.
Mm-hmm.
Caitlyn: That's amazing.
Aaron: of process, like writing for so many other artists like you do, when you shift in your writing for yourself,
has there ever been aju like, you know, putting on so many hats,
Caitlyn: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: felt you have to put like your own hat on?
And does it feel like you're putting on like yourself as a character or are you able to
Caitlyn: Oh, interesting.
Aaron: into yourself and pull all of that
Caitlyn: that's a very interesting question. I mean, There's obviously, A big [00:33:00] distinction between like going and writing with Miley Cyrus or like, a artist like that where I'm like just getting like great melody ideas or great you know what I
mean?
And like there to facilitate the best out of that artist, right? I actually look at writing with other artists, almost like a service job,
I just need to help this person, right? pull it out and pull out their truth. so when I go in and I am writing for myself it's a completely different feeling,
right? Because it's really like. looking in the mirror, it's really looking inward. I don't think that I'm putting on the character of Kaitlyn Smith. I don't feel like that. It does feel like I'm looking inside, looking back at my memories and my experience or thinking about the struggles.
Like it is kind of an excavation
More than just like do you know what I mean?
I'm gonna put on my own hat.
it feels more inward. Does that make sense?
Michaela: Yeah, Yeah. do you write others yourself,
Caitlyn: I do,
there's a handful of people [00:34:00] that I'll maybe start like a half song and I'll be like, I literally wanna bring this to that person 'cause I know they're gonna help me figure it out. there's like a small handful of people that I kind of trust. Really it's, with those people that I can feel most myself and really just let down all the gates say all the vulnerable things of what's really going on inside.
Like
it's just my safe people. Um,
Aaron: Have you noticed the way you feel as the artist in that right, way you feel around these certain people, has that influenced the way that you show up in rights as the writer and not the artist?
Caitlyn: that is such an interesting question and not something I sit and think about very often, because I think that there's a slightly different version of myself that I show up
as
if I'm the artist. Coming in, I feel more of a responsibility to have the idea definitely to sing the demo, whatever it is.
Like
I have more responsibility to like, take up a certain amount of space in the room when we're not writing for my record, and I know there's another artist in the room. This is what we're writing [00:35:00] for. I don't feel like it's appropriate for me to take up that much space. take it more of a back burner.
Right?
And so it is a slightly different version
that I put out. So maybe a little more subdued.
So, Absolutely. I'm not a front person, but I've noticed if I've been doing like a lot of like three-way rights where I can kind of occupy more of the, producer track guy role,
Yep.
Aaron: then there's the artist and the writer just absorbing and.
with this person that's there, that is just in the writer role. I'll notice that I come in when it's just me and the artist, and so I'm occupying more of a writer role there.
Yeah. Right. I show up because I can see how that person, just being the writer, shows up for the artist. noticing how everything kind of interplays
Caitlyn: for sure. That makes complete sense.
And we all kind of
Morph socially, which I think we just, maybe it's just more noticeable in the writing room when you're creating something together
Happens at a party too. I guess we all just kind of mirror each other and like give and take, I don't know,
Michaela: I think writing together [00:36:00] is such a fascinating, sociological psychological, like. study examination because sometimes going in with people that you don't know at all and writing about very emotional things. and it, can sometimes be under the protective veil of well, we're writing a song, so
Caitlyn: yeah.
Michaela: sitting down with a stranger and telling you my deepest, darkest secrets,
Caitlyn: Right.
Michaela: could be, but you might not ever know.
But we're pulling from maybe experiences maybe,
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Michaela: and it's this great experiment of like how vulnerable can you be with each other? That I feel like in regular civilian life, you don't get that many opportunities to do.
Caitlyn: Yeah, totally. It seems appropriate in the writing room.
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
Caitlyn: I do find like if you can tap into that vulnerability in the writing room, the
songs are better.
Like way Better. 'cause then everybody knows what we're talking about.
And we don't have to like weirdly interject our own story, which I've been in [00:37:00] those scenarios too, where like, I think I know what you're talking about and it's like this weird dance.
Let's just be, let's just put out a dirty laundry. You feel that too?
Okay. You Mm-hmm.
know,
I think it's easier when you can get to the bottom of things
and, and
the guts of things.
So. it's like really helpful to understand. I think as songwriters, you learn more and more. we just recently had Roseanne cash on, and I don't think she said it on the podcast, but I was reading all these interviews with her and she said, we don't have original thoughts.
Michaela: or original emotions. Like we all experience, the same emotions at a certain point, and songwriting and art and music helps us recognize. Oh, you feel that too?
Caitlyn: absolutely.
Michaela: in this. I think I'm so unique, but actually there's great comfort to know like, isn't an original feeling.
we all have these feelings, and that's a
Caitlyn: Totally,
Michaela: amazing aspect of the magic of songwriting specifically, I think.
Caitlyn: totally. Someone had asked me on like a q and a last week on Instagram, how do I know, like What songs I save for myself and what songs I wanna [00:38:00] actually put out there.
And it is those songs that I feel like obviously you keep coming back to, but it's like that I actually feel and believe and I'm like, if I believe this and it makes me really feel this feeling someone else has gotta, feel
this too. And so like, if it's moving me, it hopefully will move someone else. And that's like the best way to gauge whether or not
I put a song out. So
Yeah.
Aaron: along the lines of that, like trusting yourself, trusting your judgment and all of that. I wanna know, some about your experience of writing some of these artists that you've, written with or written for. what's your experience with that as far as trusting your judgment?
saying like, that line's not great, we could do better. know, Like
Caitlyn: Uh, yeah,
Aaron: to do to show up to be a good co-writer, to like,
Caitlyn: yeah,
yeah, yeah. Ooh, that is hard.
Aaron: where I really respect the artist, I'm like, yeah, cool.
I feel like not being almost paralyzed, don't be a yes person. Yeah.
Caitlyn: Yes, totally. Which that has been something I've just, had to [00:39:00] learn over the years how to do it. I think the best line that I've come up with when something the artist says is meh, is man, that is so close.
Michaela: Yeah,
Caitlyn: Like That is almost it. Or it's like, you're not like cutting down the, line.
You're like,
that's a brilliant idea. I'm like, the emotion of that is right. What's a different way we can say that? There's
just like ways, little sentences
you can say to be like not be like, that line sucks.
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah,
Caitlyn: to be honest I don't ever sit there thinking that line sucks.
Like, that thought probably never pops in my head in a right. Because they're just trying to get some sort of emotion out. So I'm always kind of, you just dig through what is it that you're trying to say and what's the
feeling
but it is such a delicate line of depending on the artist that you're writing with too and their ego
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Caitlyn: Like dancing around that and working with that is tricky.
But I think, just be honest, Um, It's hard though.
Aaron: [00:40:00] have you ever had kind of like imposter syndrome in that situation where you're like, wait, who am I to
Caitlyn: Who am I to say that this line is not right?
Um,
Aaron: Or has it always just kind of been like an intuition thing where you're like, this just doesn't feel right
Caitlyn: it's usually an intuition thing. and usually if I'm like, I don't know about that line, or it's feeling like a little off or whatever it is, we're kind of talking about a line whether or not to do it. And if the artist in there is just like, no, I do think this is right, and this is why,
like I'll go toe to toe a little bit with them, but at the end of the day, it's their song
and they're the ones singing It.
So I need to just let them.
Do it, but I will try to like, for the best of the song, I'll try and like insert myself, but at some point you have to be like, okay, you could say that if you want
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah.
Caitlyn: your song.
Aaron: Yeah.
Caitlyn: Oh And I think like you said, that you don't ever think, oh, this line sucks. I think
yeah.
Michaela: thing to share for, people listening who might be more aspiring songwriters and like still struggling with feeling comfortable enough to. Contribute ideas and [00:41:00] situations cause I think that can be so crippling. If you're afraid that like,
Caitlyn: This isn't,
Michaela: outta my mouth
Caitlyn: yeah.
Michaela: across from me is gonna judge when really I think the best writers aren't judging, it's because
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Michaela: understand you have to like, let it flow out. And you might be like, yeah, that's not usable or whatever.
But never with a judgment of that's so terrible. 'cause
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Michaela: block ideas from
Caitlyn: Yes.
And that's so true. Like if you have an idea that's kind of floating up in the writing room and you're like, maybe this is something, it's almost like you can't keep going unless you like At least for me, if I, because I'm like, I'm just sitting on this, it's almost like a, this is a terrible analogy, just like a burp or something
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
Caitlyn: and you're just, you've gotta it's so stupid,
but you gotta just let it out.
Because also you never know if that, and maybe it is a terrible idea, but you say that terrible idea and someone would go, ha ha ha. And be like, but that makes me think of this, this, this. And then you get the hook. you just never know. Not being precious with [00:42:00] ideas is so important.
And I mean that's another piece of writing that I. try and cultivate just like a comfortability where we're all throwing garbage on the pile and we're only gonna pick up the most beautiful things,
but let's throw it out in the room just to get it
out. And I, that's super
helpful, I think,
Aaron: Yeah.
That's me like with my, like
Caitlyn: insecurity too, still, even after writing 20 years, I'll still be like, that line is really stupid.
but I'm like, here's some garbage, and then
throw it out. it
helps me not be so Insecure
Yeah, vulnerability.
Mm-hmm.
Aaron: might not be a vulnerable sentence
Caitlyn: Yeah. Right,
Aaron: but it's a vulnerable act of being like, I know this is horrible,
Caitlyn: right, right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Totally.
Aaron: that, totally the paradigm I was thinking when you're saying like, not saying this line sucks or that's bad looking under the light, like we all say terrible things.
We all
Caitlyn: Yeah,
Aaron: horrible ideas. Like everybody,
Caitlyn: absolutely.
Aaron: like the lines that John Lennon never wrote down. I'm sure he wrote some,
Michaela: or that he wrote down into, or that he did
Caitlyn: Oh,
absolutely. Think of
all the songs he wrote that never saw the Die today. I'm
sure they're out there. crazy.
Michaela: like to reference [00:43:00] Anne Lamott, the memoir writer, and she has an essay about the shitty first draft.
Caitlyn: Uh, yeah, that to songwriting as well, of like, you have to have the shitty first draft. Like you have to put everything on the page then. Carve and edit and work to get the gold, but if you keep
totally.
Michaela: and try and filter through, don't think it's as successful. I think
Caitlyn: I.
Michaela: too much like filtering, get it on the page.
Caitlyn: Totally. I also like used to get really nervous about especially if you're like in the room with bigger writers or like a big artist and you wanna get, the best song, you wanna get a hit, you wanna, whatever it
is, like the expectation that you put on the right. But I think over the years, the expectation is less of we need to make the hit or we need to make a song and I'll make the record.
if you're just approach it like, I'm gonna show up we're just gonna write the best song that we can that
day.
and it might not ever see the light of day, but it's just part of the creative journey, showing up, putting out your heart and your truth in the best way that you [00:44:00] can, it might never hear the light of day, but three songs later might be like the song, It's just like the practice of just getting it out is so important.
and not expecting that every single write is gonna be like the song
Aaron: I think that comes with time, 'cause at least in
Caitlyn: Yeah,
Aaron: like I would hold it so preciously of this has to be something, this has to be something big
Caitlyn: yeah.
Aaron: have the trust that there would be more.
Caitlyn: Right,
Aaron: never written with artists anywhere near the level that you have.
But I could imagine that like, you get this opportunity to write with somebody that has had all of this success, you're like, oh, this is it. I, can't mess this up.
Caitlyn: yeah.
It is anxiety inducing, but you just have to trust the process and like you said, show
up prepared in those scenarios and just do your best. And There's so much that you, that you just can't control or you could write a great song with that artist and they just don't feel it for them.
There's nothing you can do about it. That's fine.
Just try again tomorrow. Yep. Mm-hmm. you talk a little bit about the realities of the business of [00:45:00] songwriting and how it's changed in the time that you've been in the business? far as like, yeah. As far as the reality of like how royalty and payment has changed you know, and also like how access and getting cuts has changed and to whatever degree you feel comfortable sharing.
Yeah, totally. Where we are today is a whole new world. It is a whole new world. Then when I first moved to town, and I think, you know, even back up 10 years ahead of that, and the writer that's a, you know, even older than us would just. Tell us even more about it. But I will say when I moved to town, you could recoup your deal on an album cut.
So an example with numbers, let's say you get 30 grand for your draw as a songwriter, right? but like back when I moved to town, 2010. This would've been,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Caitlyn: people were still selling [00:46:00] physical albums
and people were still selling, going platinum.
Like every Week there would be a platinum party, right? And multi-platinum. That was still a thing. And that was like how we'd, recoup our deals. And so like my first cut. Was on a Jason Lde record. It was wild. remember he went four times platinum or something, which is like, doesn't really happen
Caitlyn: like that anymore.
And so recoupment happened a lot easier. You could actually make a good living off of just getting an album cut
Michaela: for people who don't know what that means, like if you get a advance or draw from your deal,
Caitlyn: Yep,
Michaela: lump sum of money
Caitlyn: yep.
Michaela: have to bring in enough income that pays the publishing company back.
Caitlyn: your royalties. Yeah. getting paid royalties, which is a split
Mm-hmm.
Michaela: of the royalties, goes to the publishing company and some goes to you,
Caitlyn: Yeah. Correct.
Yep. Yeah. And so. meaning a non single.
A non single. Yes. Thanks for
clarifying. For all of our,
Aaron: yeah. Yeah. [00:47:00] For,
Caitlyn: I'm really talking inside baseball here.
Inside baseball. Uh, like, people in Nashville are like, oh yeah, album cut, like recoup, like blah, blah. album cut. Yeah,
Aaron: outside of Nashville are like, What do mean? What's that mean? Yeah. Hold on, hold on,
Caitlyn: What does that mean? Okay, mom, it, it sis Did you sell another one of your songs? Okay. when you moved to town just getting like a track nine on a record
could be a great thing.
Nowadays with streaming being where the majority of the consumer is right
now,
You do not make enough money on album streams to recoup your deal.
Even if you have some of the top artists cutting your songs the money is still in radio and radio singles, and that kind of seems where it's at.
Otherwise, if you get like a sync placement, those can be
really helpful as well. But it is just A lot harder as a songwriter if you're not writing radio singles to make money just as a staff songwriter with a way that streaming pays out right now. the staff [00:48:00] songwriter community will continue to shrink unless we can figure out a way to change the payment system.
it's a bad deal right now. And so it's tough. Because that also changes how a songwriter shows up to a session. because if you think about the staff songwriters on Music Row, how are they going to recoup their deals? How are they going to feed their families and make money? a lot of these people, kids have to show up and they have to shoot for the single. So now you've got a lot of writers not necessarily going, how can I sit down and craft the best song from my heart today? They're going Switch, and switch Artist is looking for their next single. I need to Write it to sound like the radio. They wouldn't say that it needs to be about these four things, beers and trucks and girls. and so now you've got a whole bunch of writers on Music Row the songwriting, I feel likethe goodness of
songs right. Is
Like kind of diminished, because we're just shooting for like, [00:49:00] whatever sounds like radio.
And so that's really discouraging. I've talked to a lot of my publisher friends and just the songs are not what they used to be
it is the scarcity of like, we need to just get a single in order to make money.
So much less diversity in the mm-hmm.
Yes,
Aaron: that just seems like it is signing its own death certificate.
Caitlyn: Oh, it's horrible.
Aaron: only writing one thing like, we're talking about obviously like listener consumption and all of that, the pop country single nowadays is already like a meme joke,
Caitlyn: Yeah. Yes.
Aaron: and, girls
Caitlyn: Yeah. Right.
Aaron: public tired of that. And it, like you said, the structure doesn't incentivize, breaking that mold
Caitlyn: I
know. It's really a bummer.
The other thing
I will add to that, and I haven't, done this experiment uh, I guess in the last year, but maybe it was a year or two ago, I just went through the entire billboard, and this is talking specifically country music went through the top 60 songs on the chart, and I just went through every song and I was, [00:50:00] and I highlighted all of the songs that were not by the artist or the artist wasn't in the room or on the song, and it was only 10 out of those 60 songs.
We're like Outside cuts.
What that says, of what's happening now is, I mean, Nashville has gotten really campy where you have to be in the room with, whoever artist that you're trying to write, you've gotta be in the room so that they can write on it. And that, I think has also changed dramatically the quality of songs
Michaela: Mm-hmm. that are coming out on the radio, I don't wanna speak ill against all of these country writers, but the truth is, as some of these country artists that are on these songs they'll even say themselves like, I'm not even a songwriter.
Caitlyn: I don't really know why I'm here.
but here I am.
And I think it really causes the quality of songs. To suffer Immensely. Or if we go back to
like, when I first moved to town and started writing for country radio, people would cut what they call outside songs Tim McGraw [00:51:00] records, songs that he doesn't write.
That's just becoming fewer and fewer nowadays, which is wild.
Michaela: Yeah. And I think I would imagine it's like on every side is diminishing, so I'm sure these artists are like, okay, how do I increase my income?
Caitlyn: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: room and get
Caitlyn: Yeah. Yeah. Especially
if it's on radio.
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Michaela: there's an element of the emotional side of like a cultural trend of if I'm the singer and the artist, I can't just be a singer or an artist. I also need to be a writer. So as long as
Caitlyn: Uhhuh. Mm-hmm.
Michaela: I'm, making all this stuff up. I've never talked to a pop country artist. I dunno what that, what their mindset is. I've never talked to a current day pop country artist.
I wanna specify 'cause that's different mm-hmm. than like, I'm thinking of Mary Chapin Carpenter and like Roseanne Cash and mm-hmm. like
Caitlyn: Right, but also they were songwriters.
Michaela: Yes.
Caitlyn: songs.
Michaela: Exactly. But I'm, also, curious like. there's so many things bouncing in my head and not trying [00:52:00] to just be like, this sucks.
Everything sucks, but it's like, it makes it so that also then I would think the artists are not necessarily looking for the best songs, but they're like, who are the hot writers? Okay, there's a pool of five top writers they have the number ones. Well Then I need to write with them
Caitlyn: Yes.
Michaela: one,
Caitlyn: Yes.
Michaela: listening and looking for the songs that really speak to them.
And
like,
Caitlyn: Yes.
Michaela: world than like I have heard historically. Like people like Tim McGraw and Faith Hill's like Faith Hill,
Caitlyn: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: of Lori McKenna songs
Caitlyn: Right,
Michaela: songwriter from Massachusetts. At the time it was five kids and she just
Caitlyn: right,
Michaela: with the songs.
That feels very unlikely to happen in today's climate.
Caitlyn: I would say yes and no. From my understanding, a lot of the younger generation a lot of our zens kind of up and coming, or TikTok artists, people like that, from my understanding, they don't actually really [00:53:00] care about. The hit songwriter, and it's really who's there at the beginning,
the ground up. And then they kind of just keep their little team, right? So that's one thing because then I'm going and writing with TikTok artists who maybe aren't even songwriters, they're really green, but they feel sick. You know what I mean?
In the event that you would hope you would rise with them, right? But then, yeah, on the other side, there is still the group of artists that just pick the X hit writer and cut, only those songs. And it is interesting because it's a smaller group of writers are writing the biggest country songs.
It's It's kind of wild,
Michaela: So going back to kind of like the finances of it, because the reality of the finances of being a musician today is something I, feel like is still so, secretive a lot. Like we don't really wanna know what everybody's making, and I feel like the non-musician, civilian fans, don't understand the breakdown, but sometimes I feel like if I share the [00:54:00] reality,
Caitlyn: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: self-conscious that people are like, are you an idiot? Like,
Caitlyn: Oh,
Michaela: doing in this life? Like,
Caitlyn: Yeah. That's funny.
Michaela: are
Caitlyn: Yeah,
Michaela: bad sometimes. So, I'm not asking you to reveal bad stuff.
I'm asking like, just for some, scope, like you're saying, having an album cut on a Miley Cyrus record
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Michaela: like enough of life
Caitlyn: It's not like radio.
Michaela: even like income. No.
Caitlyn: I would compare it to like a teacher's salary,
Michaela: Okay. Mm-hmm. From one song on, the record, from
Caitlyn: from one song. And
there's like multiple
writers that are like on it, right?
Caitlyn: you get a country radio hit, and let's say it's a three way you can make like 300,000 on one song that's
going number one on radio as like a song that's split, right?
Because it's about a million dollars
that the song is getting ish
depending On the song and how fast it goes at the chart. and so, yeah. that's a whole nother zero.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Caitlyn: That's a whole nother zero.
Michaela: yeah.
Caitlyn: That's a big deal [00:55:00] between 30,000 or 300,000, you
know, that's streaming versus radio. That's uh,
it's so hard to get Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The radio single and
Especially now, it's like even harder, it's a wild world.
We can talk more about numbers.
I'll talk about
numbers all day.
Aaron: The discrepancy is just so crazy, of just most of the time the large majority of what you write, no matter how successful what your track record is as a writer,
Caitlyn: Mm-hmm. of it is just gonna be a song that may or may not see the light of day. And if it does see the
Yeah.
Aaron: and it's gonna be a trickle, and then every now and then you have this like rocket ship and like
now and then is like, could be once a year, it could be once every five years.
Could be, you know,
which is also once a career.
Caitlyn: Or Once a career. I know, like I'm just trying to write like, I'm gonna lose you again.
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah,
Caitlyn: Like, Can that happen again? That'd be great. I would love that.
Michaela: yeah,
Aaron: yeah.
The majority of what we do like, that is the work keep the wheel going down the road and
Caitlyn: Yeah. for sure. For sure.
Aaron: Patience.
Caitlyn: You also just
never know because sync too. I mean you could, [00:56:00] I was grateful enough to get a Mercedes commercial
this Christmas, you know? and
like think money is like really great. Granted, I didn't have deal recouped in the label and the master, so like But in theory, I could have made a lot of money. Right?
Michaela: Right?
Yeah. Yeah. But you didn't act your deal, saw
Caitlyn: Yeah. Yeah.
Michaela: like you got that check that then you could pay for Christmas presents and stuff
Caitlyn: Right, right,
right. Which is wild.
Aaron: that I live in, I love making records with artists and like going deep and making things that last and have
Caitlyn: yeah.
Aaron: that's my passion. Like, I always say like, I want to help artists make somebody else's favorite record.
Caitlyn: Oh yeah.
Aaron: that whatever, like the 16-year-old girl like wears the CD out in her room or
Caitlyn: Yes.
Aaron: what I love. That's the stuff that moves me, also, I like writing for sync in like the
Caitlyn: Yeah,
Aaron: that it is of like you have to write a song that doesn't sound like it's for sync, but it is fully for sync. And
Caitlyn: Exactly. And you have to say something, but you actually can't say too much. 'cause
then it's distracting. ' So
Aaron: It has to be,
Caitlyn: right [00:57:00] feeling.
Aaron: that it could fit anywhere. But as soon as you
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Aaron: behind a picture, it seems like it's written specifically for that scene,
the biggest placements I've gotten, like we've written the song in like two hours, you
Caitlyn: Yeah.
Aaron: finished producing and mixing it in like another six maybe,
Caitlyn: Yeah.
That's amazing. Yeah. Right?
Aaron: Wow.
And then like I'll labor over a record that, like McKayla and I, spend like literally hundreds of hours on this
Caitlyn: Yep.
Yes.
Aaron: and I'm really proud of it. But. you know, it's, it won't make that, it
Caitlyn: It won't. Yeah.
Michaela: on the record is gonna get placed.
Yeah,
Caitlyn: Yeah. Manifest that.
Michaela: Still.
Caitlyn: Yes.
Michaela: Okay. because we did this new format, I don't have the clock staring at me, and I just realized we've blown past our hour with you. 'cause this has
Caitlyn: oh. 'cause we're having so much
fun. We can talk. We can keep talking.
Michaela: yeah. But
Caitlyn: Oh.
Michaela: to always close with one last question.
just kind of choose your own adventure question. It's either something that somebody has told you along the way. That continues to resonate with you or something that you would tell yourself, back when you [00:58:00] first moved to Nashville, first got into this kind of making a
Caitlyn: Oh man.
Aaron: art.
Caitlyn: The advice question.
Caitlyn: if I could go back and talk to my 20-year-old self, I wish I would have not cared so much about what other people thought.
And I think I'm doing a fairly good job at extinguishing the people pleasing. But the sooner I feel like you can do that, especially as an artist where you can just be like, this is my voice.
These are my songs, this is what I'm gonna do. Whatever, if you don't align with it doesn't matter.
The sooner I would've been able to learn that lesson, it would've been really helpful. But there's been a lot of advice that I've gotten through the years from the writing room. you know, One I shared earlier was like, I don't believe in writer's block.
I think that can be a lie that we tell ourselves to just not do the work.
So, you know,
If you can't think of anything to write about, you're not paying attention. You
can literally Just write about, anything
if you're feeling Just kind of blah. then just write about that.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Caitlyn: And [00:59:00] so writer's block isn't the thing. That's what I like to tell young songwriters. and I don't know, not being so precious with each song you know,
write 50 songs and then I think Bob Dylan might have said this write 50 songs and then like, throw 'em in the trash and then write 50 more.
or whatever it is that you wanna do, whether it's, you wanna be the artist, you wanna be a songwriter. you need to find all of the avenues to do it every single day. When I was younger, I had a sound system that I would throw in the back of my Dodge Neon and I would go and I would play coffee shop, coffee shop college.
And I just gigged all around as
like a 16, 17-year-old. 'cause like I wanted to just get better at playing shows and took every crappy gig.
And so, for Those out of you listening that are out there, that are just getting started and trying to figure out how do I do it? You just have to start by doing it somewhere no matter how small.
Because everything, every little step teaches you something you grow in some way.
Michaela: Yeah,
Caitlyn: that's what I'd say. Just do it baby.[01:00:00]
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: Well, Kailyn amazing. Thank you so much for taking time this morning to sit and
Caitlyn: you guys. It was so lovely.
was So lovely. I.
Same.
Thank you guys.
Have a great day. Okay, bye.
Michaela: Bye.