Carissa Potter is an artist, author, podcast host (Bad at Keeping Secrets), one of AdAges 24 Most Inspiring People of 2021, and is the founder of People I've Loved - which is found in over 600 stores globally and featured in The Wall Street Journal, The Boston Globe, Martha Stewart Living, Create Magazine, New York Times, Teen Vogue, Real Simple. Carissa has worked with ICA in Boston, BAM/PFA, SFMOMA, De Young Museum, CCA, The Body Shop, Anthropologie, The Color Factory, Urban Outfitters, The Hammer, & Pinterest to name a few. We talk about containing multitudes, social practice, the power of showing up in-person, cultivating through inconvenience, universal basic income and a whole lot more.
Carissa Potter is an artist, author, podcast host (Bad at Keeping Secrets), one of AdAges 24 Most Inspiring People of 2021, and is the founder of People I've Loved - which is found in over 600 stores globally and featured in The Wall Street Journal, The Boston Globe, Martha Stewart Living, Create Magazine, New York Times, Teen Vogue, Real Simple. Carissa has worked with ICA in Boston, BAM/PFA, SFMOMA, De Young Museum, CCA, The Body Shop, Anthropologie, The Color Factory, Urban Outfitters, The Hammer, & Pinterest to name a few. We talk about containing multitudes, social practice, the power of showing up in-person, cultivating through inconvenience, universal basic income and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 114. This week we're featuring our conversation with artist, author, and illustrator, Krisa Potter, otherwise known as people I've loved.
Aaron: Carissa is an Oakland, California based illustrator and author.
She has published, five plus books a lot of the time by herself. And she puts her art out in a variety of different mediums. not too dissimilar from a previous illustrative guest that we had. Darren Thomas McGee. She also hosts a podcast on her wildly popular Substack. And other outlets, called Bad at Keeping Secrets.
And, according to her own bio, she is a [00:01:00] hopeless, romantic uh, human longing for connection. And she writes about being alive. I wanted to just highlight that because that is so much of what we talk about in this conversation here.
Michaela: Yeah, we get to touch on the practical parts of being a creative, that's building our livelihood on our art and what that means.
We talk about how helpful and impactful it is to actually physically show up to offer or sell your work even when a lot of things tell us not to do that. Mm-hmm. Which leads into the power of human connection and perception. Grounding in the joy of the tedium of the work. And monetizing our work versus what we would do if we had universal basic income.
Aaron: Talk about joy. What a joy. you know, this is one of those conversations we kind of felt like, we were being interviewed a, a little bit. It was just like a, very 50 50 on, sharing of ideas and a true conversation back and forth. But as with all of our other conversations, there are topics that we touched on in here.
They came as direct suggestions from our subscribers on our Patreon. It's because they get [00:02:00] advanced notice of our guests and they also get the joy and satisfaction of financially supporting the production of the show and the only way that is possible. So if that sounds intriguing to you, we have a link below in our show notes.
Michaela: And if you are a visual person, this and all of our past conversations are available on YouTube. And without further ado, here is our conversation with Carissa Potter.
Carissa: Oh my gosh. Thank you for having me. I'm gonna try to let you lead in a way that is uncomfortable for me uh, to not ask you questions. Well, no, I mean,
Michaela: we like to say that these are conversations, so please feel comfortable to ask questions. Mm-hmm. I love that you shared that you had some anxiety about if you're domineering. 'cause also have those thoughts because I always dominate conversations.
We, we've done over a hundred of these and we've been together 18 years it's been so interesting talking about that kind of stuff. 'cause I'm prone to kind of dominate and it's been a good practice of. Letting [00:03:00] Aaron speak. 'cause Aaron speaks slower than I do.
Carissa: Hmm.
Aaron: I speak slowly. I eat slowly.
Michaela: Yeah.
I'm like, come on.
Carissa: These are good things though.
Aaron: Yeah. It's a balance, it's the in and the yang together.
Carissa: Yeah. feel like that's how it works. I have a question. When you were saying that, something I was thinking about this morning as a fellow anxious person, potentially, I'm just assuming that you're an anxious person because you just said you had those sort of social anxiety things, but my mother and law and I were talking about if.
F you're a person who generally likes other people. again to overuse the word general, then generally other people will like you back. And that was giving me a lot of comfort cause I'm trying to rationalize it in my head. But I was curious if you thought that was true.
Michaela: I think so. Yeah. I yeah, because if you generally like people, I feel like you're kind of generally. Open to finding something that you like about everyone. I think if you generally like people, [00:04:00] you're just an open person versus if you have a lot of reasons that people irritate you or that you dislike them, there's probably a lot of things that are like triggering you or the kind of age old, like know when you don't like something in someone, sometimes it's because it's reflecting back something in yourself
Carissa: Yeah, that you're not like.
Michaela: of. that can happen to close you off to people. I think that's a thing.
Aaron: I agree. I think when you generally, like people, you're interested and intrigued and so you ask questions and you further the conversation and it feels nice to have somebody be interested in you, like genuinely interested.
Carissa: I think so, and I think that there are things that are interesting about. Everyone, but like you're the second people, I asked about it.
Besides my mother-in-law when we were having this conversation and they were like, absolutely not. If you think everybody likes you, you're delusional.
And I was like, Hmm. I wanna think that that energy is sort of like a reflection. The things that you're receiving from other people, or also it's like sort of a [00:05:00] reciprocity or like a connection of. Vagus nerves that is calm and comforting, which reminds me we should all Or I should.
Carissa: Take deep breaths and.
Michaela: Yeah. I feel like. it is kind of a mindset of are you moving through the world, assuming the best, assuming that people like you and you like them, or are you on guard? Assuming not all gonna get along, right?
Carissa: Yes,
oh no, I've just been told several times this week how naive I am. And I want you to guess which one, which category I fall into. Even once by my psychiatrist he was like, yeah, actually there are really bad people out there, Carissa.
Michaela: of course there are. But I'm someone, I was told by my mom, like my whole life, I'm far too trusting and I definitely have had of. falling in with not great people because I'm like, too trusting. I think I'd rather go through life assuming the best and [00:06:00] getting burned a few times than the worst.
Carissa: Agreed, a hundred percent.
Michaela: What about you
Aaron: as a blanket paradigm? Yeah, absolutely. in the worst people on this planet, they have good traits and they
Carissa: Yeah.
Aaron: qualities. You know, Even if it's just like, you know, the whole saying that like a, broken clock is right twice a day.
Like even if it's that minimal, still have good characteristics. And I think, at least in this country, the way it is right now, like. looking for that is a positive. Everything is so divisive. I think if you're approaching it with like genuine interest and intrigue in other people and understanding where they are and who they are and why they are, we have more in common with our fellow humans than not.
Carissa: agree with that. And I wanna add, I read this quote recently. or maybe it was in Lydia Stone's book she's a, Christian minister. I'm not a religious person by any means. I was raised atheist and I, I. Oscillate between agnostic and atheist, depending on your definition of the term. But [00:07:00] she doesn't like to label people as toxic for that very reason. And she talked about how like we all contain multitudes.
And I feel like for me, I had gotten into this trap of using this term of, oh, that's so toxic. That person is toxic. But really like, when we look deeper, like you're saying that I really like the clock analogy of the broken clock is even right twice. A day. And also that oftentimes when I think someone is toxic, it's either a mal alignment with what my needs are at the time and or I'm missing like a vital part of their story.
and so in some ways it's like when Mikayla, going back to what you were saying of if I am reflecting back what is something in myself that I am not proud of.
Michaela: Yeah. that specific example of toxic and kind of to bridge the gap into like, in this conversation our creative work and how we process life through our creative work. Was several years ago that I felt like. So much was about like labeling others as toxic and like on social media and in friend groups.
And I [00:08:00] remember Aaron and I were sitting our back patio one night and I was like, you know, in songs it's always about the other person, the person who did me wrong. And I was like, what about the songs when like I'm messing up what if I'm the toxic one? And Aaron was like, you should write that song. And then I went to my friend Maddie Diaz, who's a great songwriter, and I was like, do you wanna write a song called, maybe I'm the Toxic One? And we did. And it's all about it kind of feeds this divisiveness when we're like, oh, we're always the good ones. Which is so not true, we're so easily able to identify everyone else around us who's bad or harmful or whatever.
And like you said, we contain multitudes and like we sometimes are the ones that are not aligned, that are being toxic, that are being harmful. And to segue into that, I think art, creations, your work is work that helps me hold that with much more compassion for [00:09:00] myself when I see other people articulate it. which is one of the reasons why we wanted to have you on of like your work is so, vulnerable and really open-hearted and really about this type of conversation we just launched into, right?
Of like how to see ourselves and each other. how does creating the art that you create with your illustrations and your writing help you hold all of those complexities?
Carissa: thank you so much for saying that, there was something in it for you cause I really agree. I think, when I first started, I think a lot of the time, I can't remember the term that people would use, like, oh, I'm just airing my dirty laundry, I think was a phrase that, was used in regards to, the things that I would make or like talking about these sort of mental, not obsessions, but kind of like these sort of interactions that I just wanted to kind of.
Uncover and figure out how to make sense of and also become a better communicator. And how do you do that by processing it? for [00:10:00] me, like I keep asking myself over the years, like why do I do this and what is it about it, what's happening in my brain? And not entirely sure the sort of neurobiology of it, but I will say that I think it's a few different things, whereas the act of letting it go.
And flow through me, is really therapeutic. The act of sharing it openly, just also very therapeutic. And then if it resonates with anyone, and I've gotten lucky, that sort of feedback also very therapeutic, even if it's negative. It's just so enlightening that what you can write can hit different people.
Even with your intentions being on one thing can hit them in all different places where they're at in meaningful ways, whether it be positive or negative. And I think that, I've been doing this for a while, this sort of processing style of I think it came out of, I have a background. I went to art school for printmaking, but the focus was on like social practice and I don't even know if [00:11:00] it's called that anymore.
Do you know what I mean when I use that term?
Michaela: Social practice?
Carissa: Yeah. Like your art, the existence of your art was not in a physical form, it was in the interaction that it had or that you had there was like documentation of the social practice of the experience. And so like I was really interested in creating these interactions and having these conversations that I felt like I wasn't allowed to have because of social norms with people.
Like one of my first creating cards was a, choose your own adventure on, I had a crush on my boss at the time and I gave them this little booklet that had different outcomes for our relationship and what it could be and what it could not be. And I know I was like attracted to this person, but I didn't know in what capacity and how do you have those conversations that explore the alignments in how do we interact?
And don't know. A lot of it goes unaid. And for me it's fascinating. These like small, bits and how, our lives can sort of fit together. I. In different ways that make sense for both [00:12:00] people at the same time.
And I liked how you separated kind of the different process of is therapeutic and then the separate process of sharing and putting it out there. And then the separate process of receiving and response also therapeutic even when it's negative.
Michaela: ' do a lot of songwriting coaching and I often have my students explore those different compartments of like, what is the act of creating and like, what is the point of creating if nobody ever knows about it. What does that do for you? And then what does the sharing do and what does the reaction do also?
I think to not be so, caught up only in the share receiving exchange
Carissa: Wait, tell me more.
Michaela: because sometimes I think. when, especially in today's world where so much emphasis is on sharing constantly If a lot of our energy is always anticipating that, that can challenge our experience in the actual act of creating.
Like
Carissa: Absolutely. sitting down to write a [00:13:00] song, I don't want to be anticipating. In that moment, well, what is it gonna be like to share this song like those? Thoughts will come. But in my coaching and how I try to help myself is always trying to explore, okay, how do I keep that over there? the sharing doesn't have to be narcissistic or egocentric, but also I don't want that to be the only goal why I create. Even, I think with our peers selves just living in the age of social media and as a musician, like contests and everything, it can really kind of infiltrate your mind to have so much emphasis be on the response.
It is tricky. I mean, I agree. but like you said, it seems like even for you, there's a balancing act of keeping the response in mind, but not letting it take the lead. I really feel that. 'cause I think a lot of the time especially, cause we're all people who have to like, rely on our, craft for our food and to like take care of our family and like pay our bills and things like [00:14:00] that.
And oftentimes I'll get caught up in like a, how can I create something that will facilitate enough attention that I can eat kind of scenario. I started a substack a few years ago and I do think it's really like a luxury there. I don't have to worry about the response I'm not, selling anything directly.
not that I am really on other social media platforms, 'cause sales is really boring to me, not, but I have to do it every day.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Carissa: I wish I didn't feel that way. ' cause I feel like some people are just really good at sales I should be more interested in that.
Aaron: I mean, I feel that myself, I sell before the art's made. Being a producer, I need to like, sell myself and my services so that I can make art with other people. I don't create my own and then sell it after the fact. and so like for me it's like, it's a very clear love hate between, like, I love making art, I love collaborating with people. love doing the work. I hate getting the work. I hate selling myself. I just wanna do it. Like Somebody just give me work
Carissa: Hi, [00:15:00] me.
Aaron: work yeah, yeah.
I'll make art. especially in this economy, if you will, you have to spend
Carissa: Yeah.
Aaron: of time to like, sell yourself for people's attention. And it's, tedious. So absolutely hear you.
Carissa: this question is for both of you ' it's something I'm grappling with right now is every day I wake up and, I tell myself I have to focus on projects that make money. I have to focus on projects that make money, and yet every day goes by and I don't. And there's all these projects that I wanna do and that I'm like really excited about.
But I, realize the reality that I live in I can't make any sweeping generalizations about how businesses are doing right now. But I I think discretionary spending seems to have gone down maybe is the excuse I have in my head.
my question is how do you choose which projects are where and which to like invest your time? IE your enjoyment, your creativity, your like, love of process? And how do you know which projects that like, oh, I'm gonna take this project [00:16:00] and I'm gonna find something genuinely engaging in it because there's something for everyone in everything
and I don't know, it is my answer for me.
Aaron: yeah, I can answer this kind of like two ways. First off, like currently in the last little bit it's a gut feeling like a healthy dose of like constantly reminding myself that there's an audience for everything. And so to look at it not necessarily like I need to take work that makes money, but how do I make the work that I want to make, make money?
Carissa: I don't know how to do that.
Aaron: me, me neither. So if anybody's listening and they can tell me, that'd be great. But, you know, I kind of have shifted my mindset on that of like, at least musically, there's some really, really weird unrelatable music out there that a huge audience.
So there's an audience for everything out there. what control do I have to be able to make the art that I wanna make to have it make money? Which we're on episode 100 and whatever, trying to answer that question. Basically like how do you make the art that you wanna make? Is like back from my days of touring all the time and being like a touring [00:17:00] musician in sideman and there was always this thing called the gig triangle. And if you have two sides of it, it's good to go. And it was good people, good music and good money and as long as there's two of them, it's gonna be great. So if it's good music and good people, awesome. If it's good music and good money, but bad people like, okay, it still works.
Carissa: Uh money and good people, but bad music, like, okay, it'd be fine.
oh. Okay. So I need to develop one of these triangles for art,
Michaela: Yeah.
Carissa: my partner has one for architecture.
Michaela: Oh, amazing. Mm-hmm.
Carissa: his is like, a slightly different framing. It's like one of the three elements has to suffer. Like one is like time, one is like theory and then one is like quality.
I know, I can't remember so I shouldn't talk about it. I, I need one of these triangles. 'cause I feel like that triangle's really comforting of like, okay, things are gonna be okay if we have two of these things. And those things are like completely obtainable.
Aaron: exactly. the more I think about it, I heard that like over decade ago, 15 years ago, and they're like, it stands up. It's true. Yeah. You know, I've been on so many gigs where it's like, the people in the band are [00:18:00] awesome. They're like really great musicians. They're fun to be around. The pay is really good, but the music is just like, kind of makes you squinch a little bit.
It's still fun at the end of the day. 'cause you're still making music with your friends or like, my
Michaela: gigs are usually good people, good music, not good pay. Yeah. But we still do it. Yeah.
Aaron: You know,
Michaela: yeah. I mean for me it feels like cause all of our realms are kind of different for me as a singer songwriter.
Like I. I invest my money into recording music. for the past 10 years I've been in indie record label deals. So they were fronting the money, but I was making like no money off of those recordings. And now don't know if I'll make money 'cause I haven't started releasing stuff yet that I've been going to fund myself. The recording industry is so messed up and so difficult to make money off of my actual, streaming or recordings. But if I didn't make those recordings, I wouldn't have any of the other things that make [00:19:00] me money. Like gigs, like bookings, like, um. even the physical sales of my records that when I take 'em on tour, or the physical sales of t-shirts that I make from song lyrics or just with my name, like that stuff that actually gives me a transaction of income is all from this thing.
Mm-hmm. That doesn't directly money in
Yeah, it's really tricky. The, the
Aaron: ecosystem. Yeah. Having like a whole ecosystem around your art as I guess, like how we both make it work.
Michaela: Yeah. This podcast is an example. We don't make money off this podcast.
Aaron: We spend money to do it. We spend
Michaela: money,
Carissa: Oh, for me too.
Michaela: yeah, but it's like, super enriching. It introduces us to new people. It expands our community and our network. Which then also feeds people getting to know us to then want to work with us for production or for songwriting coaching or awareness of our music. There's so many other things that it's just like soul [00:20:00] fulfilling. Mm-hmm. But also where we could say, okay, it has like tentacles that go out that feed the ecosystem. does not make money
Carissa: So. how did you make the decision to stop using the indie labels and start
Michaela: releasing.
Carissa: yeah, self releasing.
Michaela: Yeah. It was after we recorded an album year and a half ago at this point that I'm still. Sitting on that I haven't put out yet, and I wrote the songs after where I couldn't write anything. I had a baby, our first baby, and my mom had a stroke when I was five months pregnant.
And I was deeply involved in her caretaking my life was just.
Carissa: That.
Michaela: was a major upheaval and lots of heartache, and it took me two years to finally start writing again. And I wrote songs about our family and our life together. And then Aaron produced it and we recorded it in this studio that we're sitting in that he designed and physically built with his dad. And when it came time, I was [00:21:00] still in a deal and it then I just was like, I just don't think I can let. Somebody else own this because my, record deals were that the company would own it in perpetuity and I would never be able to get it back. And when I was younger, I wanted the help enough that, that felt like a, okay sacrifice.
then because of the experience of what we made, it wasn't an okay sacrifice anymore.
Carissa: Oh, no, thank you for sharing that. I got goosebumps, I feel like yeah. When do you give it, over like your lifeblood in a way? it parallels sort of, I'm an advocate for self-publishing I think Both are wonderful in different ways. but I've thought a lot about like, why do you wanna publish or why do you wanna write a book? Or maybe what is the purpose? And for me, I feel like a lot more freedom in self-publishing the pacing is really enjoyable.
And then also going along with being like an anxious person. there's an element of wanting control over the final outcome and the distribution [00:22:00] of it. cause I think think I'm on five books. The first that I've done, like, with publishers well, all of them, I think for the most part except for one, like, I.
pre-published them myself before I put them out. But then I think what publishers can pay it's similar. it feels like not enough for like your entire being.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Carissa: I'm not saying I'm above doing things for money.
The amount I think matters.
Michaela: I would ask in response two questions. One, how do you handle, then taking on the tedium, the finances, like having to do all of that, like business work yourself if you do, or how do you do that? Or how do you outsource it? And two, how do you grapple with what if you Don't yet have a big audience, and you think that bigger company is your ticket and
Carissa: mean, I,
Michaela: you can't do it without them.
Carissa: I totally think it's contextual for sure. and I think everybody's situation is super different for me. when I started [00:23:00] making things and selling them, I had self-published a small book called, I'll Think of You when Pop songs Come on the radio.
it wasn't edited, like it was horribly misspelled the I think I published it through like blurb or something like that. And. I brought it to like a consignment store in the Mission in San Francisco called Needles and Pens. And remember like shaking, going up to Breezy, who's the owner of that store and giving her the these in like 2010.
And just like her being like, yeah, I'll take 'em. No big thing. And and then coming back like two weeks later and having them all be sold. And I don't know if there's a parallel to like, if you consign music, like having this huge, like, wow, I made $10 off of something that I wouldn't have about something that I really love doing.
And in some ways, like going back to the original, like where's the joy? What part of the process is the, art, I think there's also like, there's an addiction since I've been doing this so long, an addiction for like, I can make something [00:24:00] and, and then it can go out in the world.
And there's like some brain chemistry that, like, I don't, I don't mind positive or negative for the most part, if it is positively received, which I feel like I don't really have that much control over, it does do something to me physiologically.
Um, what I would say is that everybody tells you not to go to small stores and not to show up in person, but I feel like my success was a hundred percent based on not having any shame to show up in person, in stores and be like, this is the shit I make, and if you want it, that's great.
I would have like a 75% success rate and I could email like 500 people and maybe get one. Like I'll think about it in response. so I think that there's something about risk and putting yourself out there, and I feel like maybe there's a parallel with performing for you. That can seem like really scary.
But I would say like, it's been my experience that publishers want. You'd already have a network or like you were saying, an ecosystem. I think [00:25:00] it's less common they would pluck you up I don't know. I, I have known people who have just gotten plucked to and gotten huge advances.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Feel like I know more people who are slow burners,
yeah.
Carissa: also think you have to actually do it, which is another problem. If you wanna write a book, it's hard 'cause like The fun part is talking about it and then sometimes the grind is doing it. But I think that after you do it and it's done, then I think that's the hardest part.
Finding an audience. I dunno, it's all hard.
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. getting started is a huge hurdle.
I heard somebody say it as like. up first, and they were referring to like running a marathon. But writing a book or writing and recording a record is kind of like an artistic marathon. There's a lot of work, a lot of time, time that passes while you're doing it.
Carissa: I think.
Aaron: I wanted to touch on, like you saying that you have like a 75% success rate of showing up in person in a way that's really true with music.
Like you sell way more records in person at a show. Oh, a hundred percent than you on the internet.
Carissa: it's annoying though.
Aaron: a. is, and it takes a lot of time. It's really [00:26:00] time consuming. I mean, and if you're talking on like a national, even just like a regional scale, especially being out west you know, if you had all your book in all of the independent bookstores in the Northwest, that would take you like three months to get to all those places.
or at least, a solid month. but the idea of just showing up in person, I think there's something like subliminal to completely dehumanize it, but like the buyer, the consumer of like what it is, whether it's the store or your audience, there's something subliminal of like the artist showing up.
It's like, oh, they're serious. they mean this. They're really doing that art thing. You know, there's something like taking ownership and showing pride in the work that you make rather than just like Yeah. And the commitment, what you type in a caption on the internet.
Michaela: Yeah. And I think there is that human response and it's not manipulative, but like I'm more enticed to wanna support someone who's standing in front of me An email, I get that maybe I glance at quickly while I am, making lunch for my kid and I open my phone, I see an email.
You know, it's like there's all these other things that it's harder [00:27:00] to connect to, oh, there's a person behind this who took the time to make this and maybe, this is really worth me taking the time to actually listen to or read or whatever. I think that's a really good point, and also your point of like just doing it.
We can like all kind of wait for the opportunity or the support to come to then do it. Write the book, don't write the proposal, like make the album. Don't just send the demos like, really investing in yourself first and then again, it shows that you're, banking on yourself and that you believe in it.
I saw an interview with Anne Patchett, who's, you know, a bestselling author and bookstore owner, and like she said, even now she does not pitch, Unfinished work. She said, I do not pitch proposals. I write the novel and then I try to sell it.
Carissa: also like a luxury to be able to have, I mean, I did it before I had kids. or Oh, okay. think that there's the, I wanted to reference when you were talking Mikayla about, I think that there is research [00:28:00] out of, I mean it's kind of an obscure Vanessa Bonds, she's a researcher or, professor at Cornell who wrote a book.
You have more influence than you think, about like the inertia that comes when you're in person. And how actually difficult it is for people to say no to you. And I'm not saying I didn't know this research at the time when I was going to like door to door to stores to be like carrying my stuff, but it was really hard probably for the shop owners.
Like, and shop owners are always like, don't come in person because they don't wanna say no. But then the secret is you have no guilt or shame around approaching people you don't know, then somehow just like plays with the energy Again, that makes me sound like I'm a horrible, manipulative person, but I didn't mean it that way.
I just meant like a.
Aaron: yeah, but not at all. the thing that comes to mind for me is like with the internet, with social media, all of that it's like this false sense of connection. I was just telling somebody this story the other day about playing in a band when I lived in North Carolina, where we went from bar to bar to give them like physical press kits.
it was a fuller, with like a printout of what [00:29:00] we've done and like a burned cd. And we'd go to the bartender and be like, here you go. Or like, you know, is the music booker here? And like hand it off to them. that's how it used to be done all the time. And there's this like false sense of connection where it's like, oh, we're connected all the time.
cause you see somebody's posts every day but there's not, and there's this way of like hiding so it feels like rude. pushy to like, be there in person. Just ask for what you want. It's not, but also just being human
Michaela: manipulation. It's like, okay, if you're manipulating people to give your work a chance, your work that you like, put your heart and soul into, and that has the potential of enriching someone else's Life like. okay then. Yeah, you should manipulate people to be open to that. Like it's like a negative word That I feel like shouldn't be negative when it comes to that. as an example, like I go on tour, when I open shows for bigger artists, I sell my own merchandise.
so I talk about this every night on stage because there's always kind of this like idea of like, you're gaining a step up in your career when you [00:30:00] don't have to sell your own merchandise. And I'm like, I love selling my own merchandise because. I like to connect to people.
I like to talk to people I know it sells more merch and other artists are like, yeah, if I go out and I stand at the merch table, even if I have somebody else actually doing the transactions, it sells more merch because people come up, they get to connect with you, they feel invested in you. They wanna take a little piece home or like wanna have the art.
I just did a tour where there were like seven shows and there was one show where the venue would not let me sell my own merch. I was so mad at them, and sure enough, I like look at my spreadsheet, that one show the sales dip. Also, that venue took a cut of the merch, which is just like
the dumbest practice.
But anyways, I'm convinced and is that me manipulating people into buying my merch or is that just a reminder that like human to human connection. it's a relationship. I'm getting financial support [00:31:00] for going out there in the world and sharing my stories and songs, and they're it because they want to, and they feel a benefit from it.
And then they get to take, a memento home or a piece of art. So I feel like if there's anybody listening out there thinking like, oh, am I somehow being slimy? No. Uh,
Aaron: But also like feeling slimy is common
Michaela: hundred percent.
Aaron: you feel slimy about that.
to me, inherently, like there's shame that is also there, and shame loves to like multiply. for me, like when I've felt slimy, I felt shameful and it pushes me even further away from doing that thing
Carissa: It's a thing. Yeah,
Aaron: Yeah.
Carissa: totally. I agree with you. I think I need to de associate manipulation or maybe we need like several words for manipulation to like break it down for specific instances. 'cause I feel like how I understand the term manipulation and it's like I'm gonna manipulate you to jump off a bridge or something.
Or I'm gonna like manipulate you to like, give me your firstborn child so you can cross a bridge or [00:32:00] something. And I think that that's like a different thing than being like, I wanna share my art with you and I want you to feel less alone when you receive it. And then also, if you wanna remember this, like humans are species.
that love making things and also love objects and also love objects that remind you of. Of things and places that feel good and so why wouldn't you want something to remember? I mean like, okay, so I'm 42 I don't remember shit, but like I have crap everywhere that like reminds me of the people in the places and the events throughout my life that I think having a momento I don't know what my different types of manipulation how would I divide it up to make sense?
Michaela: tricky because there's money involved because we as artists are making an offering that nobody asked for, then we're trying to share it with the world, but then we're also like, but can you gimme money [00:33:00] in exchange for it?
Carissa: Yeah.
Michaela: And that's where the shame comes in. I think
Carissa: Okay. So how do you both feel when in the next few years. There's universal basic income, and then how will that change your practice?
Aaron: first thing that comes to mind is that at least in the music world, there are so many trust fun kids and it can be annoying 'cause it's like, man, you started on third base, but at the same time, the positive way to look at it is like
When there are people that are born into generational wealth that don't have to do anything with their lives, IE their basic income is taken care of.
They choose to make art. And so like, I would make way weirder art, I would make some really strange art
Carissa: That's thrilling to me.
Aaron: be more risky. And I'd be like more open because like. the idea of universal basic income, it's like everybody has a basic income. So like nobody's really making a stretch.
Like Hey, you should make a record with me. this feeling of like, oh, they're taking a risk. 'cause like what if they don't make the money that they need to make to support their family or make their bills?
Like then I'm responsible for that. if everybody has a universal. covered.
Michaela: [00:34:00] Yeah,
Aaron: let's do it. Let's make stuff.
Michaela: Yeah.
Carissa: I was thinking this morning on the way, on the drive to work that like, okay, so then if, this happens in the next couple years because AI is getting so good machinery and robots can like take away a lot of our jobs and not envisioning a dystopic future. what if the jobs that were really high paid then became like, care jobs or like human centered jobs because they were the only jobs that machines and AI couldn't do well.
And so those would be like the highest paying, and then the rest of us could like, just make things that no one asked us to
then going back to Mikayla, something you said earlier, like, would it just be a bunch of narcissistic, belly aching person stuff, individualized things that nobody else cared about.
Michaela: I don't think so. on one hand I feel less optimistic because I can't really imagine a world where we're gonna get universal basic income in America but two, I feel optimistic that if we did, I do have faith in core humanity that if our needs are [00:35:00] met, I do think that then will allow for even more connection
Carissa: so.
Michaela: And I
Carissa: think.
Michaela: I think that because of the work I do with songwriting coaching and like teaching at camps and like seeing all these people who are just like wanting to create, to connect to each other and also probably traveling to countries that have more social support like Scandinavian countries and seeing how they are culturally gives me hope.
Carissa: Did you read Sapiens by Y Noah Harra?
Aaron: I it well. I've read Homo Deus, which
Carissa: yeah,
Aaron: kind of
Carissa: what I'm gonna reference. But I feel like more people have read Sapiens, but
Michaela: I've
Carissa: what did you think of, oh, so both of you tell me more.
Aaron: I loved it. So I read Homo Deus because a friend was reading Sapiens and just talked about it so much. I'm like I get it. I'm gonna read Homo Deus and like, kind of the first half of Homo Deus is very similar to Sapiens 'cause he has to like
Carissa: set it up.
Aaron: the argument.
Yeah. on a technical level takes some attention to read his writing, which is why I've only read half of it. but like as [00:36:00] conceptually like, I'm sold. he manipulated me into believing what he was saying, if you wanna say that. I think all of that, like a return to I just wanna say like pure existence, I guess as like a. Species on this planet.
Carissa: I think that because of my takeaway, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, was that like we will have no choice but to take care of everybody
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Carissa: the next few years. And I feel like though the first part of the book it felt very accurate to like living in the Bay Area
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Carissa: and our existence right now with like the extreme wealth disparity.
And the mega rich are gonna give everybody else the bare minimum to survive and that's how we'll be ruled. for me, there's still a positive framework to look at that in, in that like, okay, we would have our basic needs met, it would be nice to be able to have control and autonomy.
Aaron: so, I am on your end of things
yes from reading Homo de and like basically making it essential to provide basic needs for. Humans I see it as an opportunity. I [00:37:00] don't see it as like, doomsday or anything like that.
I think I need to just preface it by saying that like I'm really skeptical of capitalism myself. So what's going on in the world, like socially, physically environmentally, it all traces back to capitalism for me. You know,
Carissa: Awesome.
Aaron: able to exist on not much, you know, we're creative more than like what we choose as a profession.
Like we live creatively, we approach all things with a creative eyes. It's like.
Michaela: that's one of the things when we talk about kind of like finances and a life of an artist the conversations we have on here and with our friend community and each other a friend of ours who spent several years just living in a van and like lives on very little. I remember him so vividly sitting in our living room and we were, he and I both were just like, maybe isn't to make more so we can get more, it's to be happy with wanting less and really like being able to live such a beautiful, fulfilling life without all of the [00:38:00] material things that we think. society and capitalism wants us to think we need, and I think that is inherently if we're really tapped into it easier for us, right? Because we can create experiences and art and connection without needing to buy things and spend money.
Carissa: I feel grateful for this every day
Michaela: Yeah. Mm.
Carissa: and that I get to. To what I get to do, even though it's hard, every day that I find, joy in all of the aspects to it, Amber Lee and I do, do the budgeting and the ordering and the like, design the projections, the fulfillment, person, the fulfillment.
do you find it fun? Does some of it fun? I don't know if you could hear, she said all of it, but it's, it is like a puzzle to solve. And it's fun to get to do it together. Um, and it's definitely like, I didn't study business but it's, all like
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Carissa: Um, and I would say I'm like a slightly less than average intelligence [00:39:00] and I could figure it out. Uh,
Aaron: we like to end our conversations with it's kind of a choose your own adventure question, and it's either something that somebody has told you along the way that continues to resonate and inspire you.
Or conversely, like something you would tell you as you were just stepping into, being a quote unquote professional or like, basing your livelihood on the art that you make.
Carissa: for a long time I was telling myself that as long as I was making things that. I enjoyed making that was like the goal so that the work would be enjoyable but I feel like in some ways that's, not, not true, but it's not like the advice I would give I think that what I want to hear, is that I'm worthy in a social realm and that people care about me as a person.
And what I make is important and fun and it generates money to be able to live, but I want the sort of relationships that are inconvenient I wish I had invested in friendships over developing a [00:40:00] business. and I think part of being, I'm now in my middle years of life, I think the focus has been on cultivating those friendships and relationships and.
Really taking joy in the meat of being around other humans, and having zero point, just the point to enjoy each other
Aaron: Friendships that are inconvenient has been something I've been saying a lot the last couple of years.
Carissa: I mean, a lot of them are like, there's always this threshold though, of like what is too inconvenient and then What are you willing to like fight for? And my jury's out I have no rules.
Michaela: I
Carissa: Um,
Michaela: For each other is inconvenient and it's also and needed.
Carissa: agreed.
Michaela: our baby just talking.
Aaron: He agrees.
Carissa: Yeah.
Aaron: He's like, this is inconvenient. Yeah.
Carissa: It's inconvenient that you're doing this podcast right now. I have needs Let me know when,
Aaron: you.
Carissa: Have a wonderful rest of your day great. You both. Thank you. Thank you. so
It's a pleasure. Bye. [00:41:00]