Dan Reeder is a singer-songwriter and painter originally from Louisiana, who has lived in Germany for decades, released critically acclaimed records via John Prine's Oh Boy Records (as one of the first artists signed to the label, at almost 50 years old), and is somewhat of a cult folk-hero. Dan has toured very infrequently over his 20+ year music career, and we talk about why and his feelings about the concept of touring in general, his approach to staying creative musically and in his visual art, the connections he sees between painting and recording songs, we get an inside look at synths that he is currently building, and a whole lot more.
Dan Reeder is a singer-songwriter and painter originally from Louisiana, who has lived in Germany for decades, released critically acclaimed records via John Prine's Oh Boy Records (as one of the first artists signed to the label, at almost 50 years old), and is somewhat of a cult folk-hero. Dan has toured very infrequently over his 20+ year music career, and we talk about why and his feelings about the concept of touring in general, his approach to staying creative musically and in his visual art, the connections he sees between painting and recording songs, we get an inside look at synths that he is currently building, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to today's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 119 This week we're featuring our conversation with Dan Reeder.
Aaron: Dan Reer, for those of you that don't know, is kind of like a, uh. cult folk superhero, I guess he is a singer songwriter painter, first and foremost he's American, but he is lived in Germany for a long, long time. He's been critically acclaimed by the New Yorker, rolling Stone.
All of those places, his art can be found in collections and galleries across Europe. and I guess maybe. of came to prominence here in the States because John Prine signed him to his label. Oh boy. Back in like the early two thousands. I think it was maybe the first person to get signed to. Oh boy.
I think so. Yeah. [00:01:00] It's not John Prine himself. Dan shares the story of that it was completely by accident that he got signed to John's label. so he shares the history about that. And he has barely toured, I think he counted the tours that he has done, like on one hand. maybe two. He was signed by John just before turning 50.
And this summer at 70, right around the airing of this show, he is making his debut at Newport Folk Festival.
Michaela: Yeah. And so it was a really entertaining and refreshing conversation. some of the takeaways that really stuck with us was. How hilariously dumb touring is from the perspective of someone who hasn't done it that much.
And we were like, yeah, you're right. You're not wrong. Yeah. Um, he also talked a lot about how if you're struggling with promotion of your music, go back to the art. If you make better art, maybe the promotion won't be as difficult. And his kind of relating, making records like paintings, not with the intention of going out and performing them over and over and over again, but.
Making them [00:02:00] and moving on.
Aaron: When you're done, you're done.
Michaela: Yeah. Really interesting perspective considering a lot of musicians operate from this place of, oh, I write than I make, and then I go perform over and over and over again. His mindset has been very different, so it was really cool to get to hear his creative practice, within that context.
Aaron: Yeah. Of the 119 conversations we have, this one definitely stands out as a unique perspective, unique approach. I think it's. Really enjoyable. But one similarity with the rest of the episodes that we've released is that some of the questions, topics, areas that we discuss in this conversation come as direct suggestions from our Patreons.
And that is because they have, advanced notice of our guests before we have these conversations so they can submit questions. That have been burning in the back of their mind, waiting for us to have these conversations with artists.
And also it is the only way that you can financially support the production of this show, which is quite the undertaking, even for a small show like ours. So if that interests you, whether it's, having your questions answered, or having the [00:03:00] moral satisfaction of financially supporting this show, There's a link to the Patreon below in our show notes.
Michaela: And if you're a visual person, this conversation and all of our previous conversations are available to watch on YouTube. And without further ado, here is our conversation with Dan Reader.
thanks for taking time to be here with us.
Dan: where are you guys anyway?
Aaron: we're in Nashville.
Dan: okay.
Aaron: Yeah. And you're in Germany?
Dan: I'm in Nuremberg, Germany. Yeah.
Michaela: Ah, awesome.
Dan: we love to have conversations with people like yourself that can, measure your career in, decades and have had. myriad of experiences.
Okay. Well, my method, because I'm also married and have kids was always to have a part-time job. I would always work three days a week to make sure I could pay the
rent and eat food and Okay. We're in Germany, so we have like, a very good social system.
we don't have to
struggle to pay medical insurance and stuff. You have that if you have a job of any
kind.
that was my way. I would work three days a week and then four days a week I could do whatever the [00:04:00] fuck I wanted basically.
if I don't know that I can pay my rent, then I'm not gonna be creative anyway. Like, I have to know that. And like, if the kids, they're gonna have food and, and be okay. So that was very important. that's how I did it.
Michaela: what kind of part-time job did you have?
Dan: the beginning I worked in a print shop and then in an offset shop where, um, I sort of learned German that way.
They put me at the back of the machine where you've got the paper loading and you have to like, reach out here like that and stretch it and fan it out, and sort of shake it and put it in the machine and make sure that
the sheets going in one at a time. So the guy would yell something and I'd have to get it right.
Otherwise I'd spend two hours cleaning the machine.
Aaron: And then after, we went to the us we went to Georgia. My wife finished her master's In Athens. And then we came back and I got a job as a house painter, it's an occupation here.
Dan: I couldn't do it, but they taught me how, so I got pretty good at it actually.
Michaela: we've lived in Nashville for 10 years. We lived in New York City for 10 years before that always living in [00:05:00] cities, that the cost of living is always rising and, heavy like industry musician towns. Also, we live in America. and the financial reality for anybody, but especially for artists is really grim.
Yet I still feel like a lot of. Musicians and artists feel this like self-imposed pressure of this validation of, if I can make my money off of my art, Then I'm really doing it. Can you speak to that? you know, being an American, but living in Germany with this much different social structure and support systems.
Did you ever have those thoughts or any
Dan: that's a terrible mistake. And a stupid mistake because
who cares how
you make your living?
And actually I started out As a painter. I studied painting. And the only time I'd feel good is if I finished a good painting where I was like, okay, that's good.
Like, the rest of it, I don't care. like, I'll, I'll do the work, I'll take care of the kids, I'll do the diapers, I'll go shopping, I'll vacuum, but in the end I wanna have that feeling that this picture is good or this song is good. [00:06:00] that's what makes it work for me. So
the idea of, having to make it up.
The profession or where you make all your money that way? It's a mistake. That's what I think about it.
Michaela: Mm. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.
Aaron: When your entire livelihood is resting on your creative output, that is quite an intense pressure to have on there.
Dan: I tried it in Georgia I didn't have a job and I was trying to paint all day every day. I can't do it. the way I paint, I have to have kind of an idea or ideas and then bang it out pretty fast. that doesn't work for me.
I mean, there are people who do like the tight little sort of painting, and they can do it
maybe because they've Got a lot of busy work to do. But
that's not how I do it. And so that was actually terrible for me. I thought, fuck, what am I doing here? This is never gonna work. Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah.
Michaela: I remember when my brother and I both went off to college, my mom was really. Insistent that we, each get part-time jobs in college because they were [00:07:00] supporting us which is a huge privilege, but our parents were like, you will do better with structured time.
And if you have a, part-time job, you know, if you have a full day and you're supposedly gonna study or write or do whatever, you're not gonna do it. And, you know, being 18, I was like uh, and I've learned, especially now being a grownup and like if I have a full week, I'm like just paralyzed by, well how do I spend my time?
So having those kind of built in things in your schedule that give you blocks of time, I also find very helpful.
Dan: you know, you've got an hour and a half between getting home from work and, having to go home. Or would come to my studio and then I'd have some time I had to go home. And that's like golden time or after the
kids went to bed, that's also like golden time.
And I'd come here and then, oh yeah. And you'd really like, okay, I've gotten older I'm a little bit lazy now, it was that structured thing. And also it gives
you a sense that you've paid your debt to society or [00:08:00] something you've done the shit that you have to do.
So now
you can,
do some fun stuff. when it comes to music, can't imagine, do people write songs like all day long? How do you do that?
Michaela: Yeah.
Dan: there are like
five chords 1, 4, 5, and sometimes two minor and sometimes six minor.
And then. you kind of run out, you know, unless you're
Beethoven or something. And so I think,
Dan: it's like, same as a painting, I don't have that many ideas. So if I do
have a good idea or an idea that I think is good, then I wanna make it, good. But there was a guy, he wanted me to like, collaborate with him and his concept was to write a song every day.
I'm not gonna write a song every day. That's terrible.
You're just Gonna end
up with like a bunch of shitty songs. you're like striving for mediocrity. It's guaranteed
It's like trying to paint, a picture every day. not gonna work. Well, My experience, it's
not gonna
Michaela: so refreshing.
Aaron: I mean, being in Nashville, we. see that, you know, people, that it is their profession to write songs and they write, one to three songs a day, you
know, Monday through Friday,
[00:09:00] nine to five. And that's not the world that either of us are in. But I, I would venture to guess, it's a lot like your job at the printing
Dan: Yeah.
Aaron: We are just feeding stuff in
and pulling it out the other
Dan: Yeah.
Michaela: love these kind of conversations 'cause there's no one way to do it, but it can get mixed up in what is your true creative pace and desire, and then what you think you need to do you know, if you have a publishing deal and that's your job or what you, hear other people say.
So you're like, well I guess that's what I need to do. Versus people like, Iris Dement is always a wonderful example to me because I've read interviews with her where she's like, years will go by between her records. 'cause she's like, well. I'm not gonna put a record out or record songs or push myself to write songs if I don't feel compelled to just
Dan: Yep.
Michaela: the career business tells me I need to do that.
She's like, I'm gonna wait until I have something to say. And she, when she has something to say, it's really profound. Mm-hmm.
Dan: Bingo.
Michaela: can you talk about ambition and ego? what role those things
Dan: [00:10:00] Hmm.
Michaela: in your life?
Dan: Well, I wanted to be a famous artist. Yeah. I found out, like the reality is different than that.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Dan: if I paint a shitty picture and somebody comes up and says, oh, that's a great picture, that's a great picture I wanna buy. That's a great picture, and I know it's a shitty picture, then, I just think, well, they're a fucking idiot.
It does not make me happy. No, it's like, it does not make me happy. What makes me happy is if I paint a picture and I know it's good and, and I mean, I really, I think I know if they're good. that whole thing of, doing it for praise like, I've been on stage a few times and when the people applaud I even mentioned this to John Pride.
I said I don't understand the theater. People who live, for applause. ' cause you just sit there and wait for it to be over. And he said,
john said uh, well Dan, it's better than if they don't applaud. And I thought, Ooh, yeah that's, true too. But
really The applause doesn't do me.
It really does not do me. And it doesn't change anything. Actually. It is of course better than no applause or [00:11:00] better than like in Germany, I played with my daughter and, uh, we make sort of a joke. well we played in Nashville and Memphis and New York and then we did a West Coast tour and the people kind of went nuts.
You know, you go up there and I'm sitting there like, wow. And in
Germany, the last time we played here was to 40 people in a little culture shop here. And you finish the song and the people go like this.
Dan: So I was like, okay, that's the German way.
Michaela: I did a, tour in Europe several years ago where we played in in Germany, and I was the opening act, and I remember being really startled by, of just like, oh my God, do they, dislike me? I had played in Sweden before, which was similar, like very polite and listening so attentively, but then just the most polite, mild applause.
And you're like, oh God,
Dan: hate me. I know. Well, if you're used
to the US.
Michaela: And then we played in Paris, and that was also much more exuberant and vibrant, which I think is just fascinating. The different, culture's [00:12:00] response to art and really needing to know that.
Dan: We met Phoebe Bridgers in
New York, like we played, this place in New York. And, uh, she came, she wanted to meet us and, came to the show and she came backstage and we told her, you know, this is like totally weird for us, where the people are going crazy and singing along really loud and blah, blah, blah.
And she said it was like playing in Germany 'cause she's also played in Germany and is familiar with that sort of polite, applause situation. So she
said, it's like athletes who train in the mountains in Colorado where there's no oxygen. And then, and then you, you go down to sea level and all of a sudden you, we're not talking about the other 22 hours though now, so that's not right.
Aaron: we kind of are, you know, ' the subtext is, kind of, how do you say? Sane, and it can be maddening. You know, I spent years touring and being on the road and all of that, and now mostly being in the studio. And the thing that I gain more perspective on all the time is the uniqueness of live music.
Where, to me it takes both the artist [00:13:00] and the
audience to make the event incredible. And so, especially touring Europe when it's the contrast in demeanor and approach are so starkly different, so close together. You know, generally in the US everybody kinda responds the same. It's not like you go to Philadelphia and people are polite and you go to New York and they're
rowdy and
there other places you go to Nashville and everybody leaves a big gap in front of the stage.
And same with la, everybody sits with their arms crossed for a little while. But that can be like you know, especially when you're, on like a little bit of a tour, that's definitely something to navigate
Michaela: And how your body reacts and your emotions react to the artist audience relationship that impacts the whole rest of your day and night.
Aaron: Yeah.
Dan: I haven't toured that much. I went with John Prine, I opened for him 30 times altogether. And then with My daughter, we went and did healing Appalachia. And then we do a West coast tour. That's like the extent of my touring. My daughter and I have both noticed that it's like very stressful.
Like you don't just go to the bathroom when you want to, you go
to the bathroom when you can, and you
eat when you can and [00:14:00] you sleep when you can. like we went from Nashville to West Virginia to this Healing Appalachia festival.
We went to bed at midnight and we got up at two in the morning to get on a plane to, fly to West Virginia.
And my daughter is 28 and she was having chest pains. she was like, fuck am I having a heart attack? I mean, that, that not audience, that's just
Michaela: The
Dan: the travel.
like we were in San Francisco and what did I see of San Francisco?
I saw the brown wall of the green room for
like four hours. I just
sat there. 'cause they, they like to open the doors and the people come in and you can't leave. And so you just sit there and you eat the fucking almonds and, and the chips and,
and the
hummus. Yeah. It was like, I've been to San Francisco.
But yeah, that was kind of a, surprise guess I could have if I'd wanted to, but that would've just made it more stressful, to leave the venue and go out I'm not gonna do that.
Well,
If I can't find my way back or they, they won't let me back in or some shit, I don't know.
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. The grind of the road is so interesting [00:15:00] because I feel like for a lot of people who also started young or, just felt like this mental commitment to it, I feel like there's a conditioning that happens of, I don't know, sometimes I don't even notice how hard it is. Well, it
Aaron: becomes normalized.
Yes. You know, the, human beings are capable of becoming comfortable in really uncomfortable situations.
Michaela: you know, I remember the last tour that we did before the pandemic hit, it was like a three week tour from Nashville down through Texas, up to the West Coast, back to Nashville.
It was, the drives were horrendous and we had a five piece band, and Aaron played drums. It was my music, no tour manager. I was, like selling merch, so it was just like such a mad dash on very little sleep. My adrenaline was running But I definitely am someone who I get energized from audiences.
So I was like also running on high because the shows were good. And so I was also feeling excited and I remember coming [00:16:00] off of that and being like, yeah, that was so great. We kicked ass. And then the pandemic hit and we were inside all the time. And my, my nervous system like leveled out instead of going right back out on tour and being home.
And I remember talking to Erin and being like, wait, I don't know if that was good for me or us. Like that was so much. And now we tour and have a almost 4-year-old daughter and a four month old baby that we'll take on tour. And we're like, we don't go those long stretches of time or do those drives, but sometimes I'm also like.
We've totally conditioned ourselves to be like, this is fine.
Dan: you know, it is, stressful without kids. my manager went with us on the West Coast tour and we also had a, another woman with us to help sell merch. 'cause it's just, we had two styles of t-shirts, each one with five different sizes. Hats and the tote bags and stickers
and all shit. I mean, that was their, only job. And I, I thought, fuck, how does she even do it?
You know, you've gotta
Keep track of how many medium shirts you [00:17:00] have.
I was like, ready to say, you know what? Fuck merch. We're not doing merch. I'm done with merch. Merch is terrible.
It's like a little dog just all the time. Like, You have to make decisions about what kind of stickers you want. You wanna have this. I was like, I don't want any of this shit. I never wanted to be a shopkeeper. a guy in number gave me a bookstore. He actually said, here, you can have this It was a used bookstore. and I
went in and I did it for one day and I said, I don't want it. Take it. Keep it.
I don't want this fucking place. It's
terrible. and the merch Stuff makes you a shop owner whether you want it or not. in California you've got sales tax, and in Washington you've got sales tax. So you have to apply for like a temporary seller's permit.
And then you have to do your taxes while you're
on the road on somebody's laptop. And it's like,
fuck me, duh.
And they know exactly like the tax in California every county has a different tax,
so you have to tell Em exactly where you were. Okay. You have to estimate how much you're gonna sell. You don't know how much you're gonna sell.
You know, it's Like,
Michaela: Oh my God. I it's,
Dan: it's fucking nuts. that's not even the music [00:18:00] stuff, that's just shit that has to be done.
Because otherwise they'll throw you in jail.
we weren't gonna do it at first. And my sister said, Dan, you know, in California if you sell stuff and you don't, do the sales tax. It's called tax evasion, and they will put you in prison. It's like,
oh fuck.
Michaela: The merchandise is so difficult because for me, it is the only way that I make money when I go on
Dan: Oh, really?
Michaela: yeah. If I didn't sell merchandise, the expense of travel, it, makes or breaks a tour. I'm in the midst of doing like these support dates and if you drive, it's cool because you can have all this stock, but if you're flying. I'm like having to figure out, what sizes do I bring? How many of each size? And really hoping that that's what people want. And then you get to the, venue and you sell out of your larges immediately and all the people want are larges.
And I'm like, I don't have any larges and now I'm losing money, but I have all these smalls. but it's literally the only way to not lose money.
Dan: Well, actually we would've, I think we would've made money, but we wouldn't have made [00:19:00] as much money.
I also had to pay a woman to take care of all that stuff, no, we made money on merch, but I've got a little advantage when it comes to that stuff.
we ran outta some stuff, like, we didn't have any more t-shirts. so we said like I told a little story about eating ravioli out of a can. And so I started Making drawings, little drawings with a, sharpie, um, of a ravioli cam with a spoon in it. And we were selling 'em for like 75 bucks a piece.
And my God. Amazing.
was like backstage drawing these things as fast as I could.
and that's like pure profit. I mean, What does it cost? It cost like 10 cents for the paper,
Maybe more, but
Michaela: Yep.
Aaron: I toured with a, woman named Nicole Atkins who would do the same thing. She was an artist to begin with, and same thing. She would spend the time in the van, rather than scrolling through her phone, she'd draw, you know, 10 of these things you know, if we had time at the venue, she'd paint some
stuff and, sell out at the merch booth and pretty much sell out every
Dan: Yeah. Well
that's like, stealing money. That's should be illegal.
Michaela: No, because you also have your lifetime of honing
Dan: Okay. You don't,
you don't [00:20:00] have to convince me. I'm just kidding. I'm gonna keep doing it too. One thing about touring that really was a problem for my daughter and me. Guitars,
we're coming from Germany, so fuck, what do we do about guitars? Like, She's got a really nice Martin, wonderful to play and
it's her favorite Guitar.
She's not gonna put in that case and check it.
theoretically you can buy a ticket for it, but that doesn't really work either because it has to be a window seat and there has to be a window seat available. if you book everything and then in the end there's no window seat available, you have to just cancel and start over.
It's like really
fucking stupid. And of course super expensive. So the first time we went, we borrowed guitars. Everywhere we went, we were like, okay, we're gonna need to borrow guitars. Maybe somebody can load us guitar or rent us a guitar.
and that's not a bad solution, but you get
some pretty Weird fucking guitars
where you go like, oh God, I can't do this, this, not working for me.
Some of 'em are good, some of
'em are not good, You never know what you're gonna get. Then on the West Coast tour, the company Gibson actually loaned us two guitars. They
said, go
[00:21:00] Try out guitars and find out which models you like and we'll loan you two of 'em. So I went up to Heidelberg and we went to a music store there and found out that not all Gibsons are the same,
like,
they had seven, like pretty expensive, I mean four and a half thousand euros guitars that they loaned us a J 45 and a J 180 5
and they were wonderful.
But then you've got 9,000 euros worth of guitars that you're carrying around
and if something happens to Em, you're fucked.
You know? So it's like, what do we do about this? we flew with them once we bought tickets. It was a short flight from Portland to Sacramento or something.
Like, not a long flight.
So, tickets for the, things, it worked out okay.
I don't wanna ever do that again either. 'cause I don't like being responsible for expensive instruments,
solution.
you're waiting for this part,
There's a company called Journey Instruments and they make guitars where you take the neck off It fits, in a backpack that fits in the overhead compartment.
Dan: This right here,
Michaela: wow. Oh, check that out.
Dan: And I'm [00:22:00] gonna do something that's gonna make you a little bit sick to watch, but I'm gonna do it anyway. You loosen this thing right here and you push
this button and the neck
falls off,
Michaela: Wow.
Dan: it in this special backpack. And This is the really, the bad part. does it sound?
That's what that's what you were gonna ask.
Probably not exactly in tune, but, um, it's got a passive pickup in it.
Aaron: i've seen that with upright bases where, you know, the net comes off and actually folds into the
body and all that. But I mean, the body of an upright base. You're still checking
it. It's still
Dan: huge. They're huge.
Aaron: yeah. That's
cool.
Dan: is, this is like journey instruments. Yeah. And they're not that
expensive. This one, costs I think 700 euros.
Michaela: Okay,
Dan: And it's got, like I said, the, passive pickup, which is you know what, a k and K Western mini pickup
is. I,
like that only, they're a little bit baier.
And you basically, you have to eq out some of the bass The sound guy can fix anything that's wrong with this.
You know, as a guitar there are better guitars out there. but,
Michaela: that's convenient.
Dan: yeah, and you don't have to worry about batteries and it's
[00:23:00] fucking fantastic. So it's like, okay, I'm gonna buy two of those.
there's a mahogany version, which sounds better. I think
yeah, 'cause that's also like touring. I'm thinking, oh fuck, what are we gonna do by guitars? what are we gonna get for guitars? We have to go somewhere and get 'em, we have to talk to some guy who I don't know, and ba
ba ba baba Is all some kinda weird, complicated shit that I don't wanna deal with.
And then, yeah.
Michaela: Yeah. 'cause it's all like you have such limited time. So it's like not having to travel with your own guitar and picking up a guitar from someone else, it's, still a whole thing that you have to deal
Dan: Some. Yeah.
Michaela: the first time because I've always traveled with my guitar.
But full disclaimer, you can probably hear our four month old baby is in a rocker right next to us and babbling. Yeah. But I just flew just with him by myself and you know, have to have a stroller, car seat. Diaper bag, then my merchandise, my luggage, our clothes, and a guitar. And I was like, well, it's like physically almost impossible, but I can do [00:24:00] it.
And then I saw another woman who was touring in Europe was flying with a baby, and she was like, start sourcing your instruments locally. And I was like, oh, I could see if I could do that. But then you have to build in the time and the
schedule to be able to add the extra drive time, pick up the guitar, make sure you bring it back in time.
It's like, And drop it off. Yeah. It's still a whole,
Dan: Yeah. but it, makes it easier on your, body and your pocketbook to not fly with it. It's so stressful to fly with an
Yeah. Not
anymore. Not for me.
Michaela: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Love, love that. Gonna,
Dan: it was like, oh yeah. there's a company called Fch. They make guitars. Czech Republic, and they make a guitar called The Little Jane LJ
10. And the expensive version's like 15 or 16 or 1700 Euros also has a pickup in it. And it's also a fold up and fits in a small pack.
but they're way more expensive than these.
This company also makes a carbon fiber version, which means it can sit in the sun, it
can be at the beach, and It sounds the same,
but [00:25:00] there are 1300, and I decided not to get one of those.
Michaela: it's so interesting you know, the limited touring that you've done. as a painter, as well as a musician the career aspects of being a painter versus being a musician, uh. you speak to the differences and how the, promoting or getting your work out to the world in the painting medium versus the music medium, what that's like for you and how that impacts your creativity in both of those realms.
Dan: Yeah, I can speak to that 'cause I've spent a lot of time thinking about it.
Um,
I work with these guys. They have a, a workshop and they print every year. They print a calendar. They use these old machines and print a calendar to get us, uh, some poet or author to write little texts.
uh, There are seven of us now, and each of us makes two months calendar picture. They're pretty big
and they're expensive
And they're very popular now. But these guys are all like that's sort of their hobby. These guys are almost [00:26:00] all successful in business.
One guy's a professor, another guy's a graphic artist, another guy was a graphic artist for a big company, so he did like, that kind of stuff.
But these Guys are not actually like artists,
And so what they do is they're constantly trying to get shows of Their stuff.
They're doing it backwards. I've told them that, but they don't listen to me. It's like if you, I spend your energy making better art. You don't have to go hunting for shows. People will come to you and
offer you a show somewhere. Does that, then, that may sound arrogant, but some people try really hard to promote what they're doing.
And they spend most of their time promoting something instead of making something that's worth promoting. a lot of people put the emphasis in the wrong area
And maybe they're right. actually like in music right now, maybe it's true that, uh, you have to constantly promote and do online stuff.
I don't know, don't think so.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. I think
Dan: you're better off. Yeah. Making better, making better art.
Aaron: kind of, along those [00:27:00] lines, I'm really interested in hearing how you view the two art forms, especially since you haven't toured much. So your art form, in my judgment and my understanding, the way you. Share your musical art with the world is through making recordings and making records.
Can you talk about your relationship to that and
painting, And if there's crossover, if they influence each other?
Dan: actually, I became a musician because I had a computer where I could record myself, like sound on sound. And I did it the same way I do paintings. and in fact, if a song was done, I was like, fuck, okay, that one's done. Thank God I'll never have to sing that again. Like something you're laughing.
But I was actually, that's what I was actually thinking. And then
when, when people were like, Al Burnett, who at the time was, the president of Oh Boy Records,
he Asked me if I wanted to. Go play live. And I was like, no, I don't wanna play live.
that's not what I do. I do this. he kind of convinced me to try it, he said, well, have you ever tried it?
And I said, no. Well, then you don't know, do you? So it's like hard to argue with that, [00:28:00] reasoning.
but When I started, I made recordings, like every, like paintings. when the recording was done, it was done. I
had no plan to ever sing it again. And in fact, the second record sweetheart, it was called, I started writing songs that I could perform live because it was like, oh shit, I might have to play that live.
Which was a different thing.
And now actually,
I don. Think of it so much. 'cause I think, yeah, one way or the other, you can do it live. There's always a way do it. You get two other people, to play with you, and then course you can do it.
Yeah, there was a point where I was like, oh shit, I'm gonna have to, write songs that I can play live,
Aaron: and did you notice that actually changed your creative practice or your relationship to writing?
Dan: Just kind of annoying because it was like, all right, I, I have to, I have to do where I can play it on the guitar or on a, keyboard or something
Michaela: is your kind of story that you sent your record to John Prine and he liked it and signed
you.
you, were in your late forties, early fifties, is
Dan: That was 2003. I'm [00:29:00] 70 now, so that was 22 years ago. So yeah, it
was 50 something, 50 war,
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.
Dan: not a good math head.
Michaela: No,
I'm not either. Yeah.
Dan: Something like that. Yeah.
Aaron: What was the impetus for setting the record? was
Dan: Now, you
know.
Aaron: help getting it out for distribution
Dan: No, I
I was actually, I had sold a bunch of them in Nuremberg and around here.
wasn't selling 'em anymore. It was like everybody who wanted one had one.
So it was like, all right, why do I do this thing? And I was gonna send one to like Bruce Springsteen. I was gonna send one Emmylou Harris.
had a list of people I was gonna send 'em to. And John Prine was the only guy whose address I could find. I Didn't even know he had a record company when I sent it to him, it was like,
Honest to God, I was just trying to give him sort of a thank you for all the cool music that he uh, yeah.
That he has given to The world.
You guys looked at me like, that's not true, Dan. It is fucking true. I'm telling you the truth.
Aaron: I love it.
Dan: It is. That is exactly, it's actually what happened. I sent that and as A matter of fact, I put my email, address it at the very bottom of the little letter I sent. just really tiny.
And it was like [00:30:00] an
afterthought
In the
meantime, I've been told, and I, been with him, when people give him CDs of their stuff
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Dan: and he does listen to 'em or he
did, But most of 'em are not very good
Aaron: so he writes back, he likes it. He's like, Hey, I have a label. I would like to put your record
Dan: Yeah. And not just that, they said, should we bring Dan to, uh, Nashville and have him record it like in a professional studio? And he said, no, I like it just the way it is. So
Dan: the only thing they actually did on the first record was well they mastered it. You have to have the volumes so that people don't constantly have to
change the volume, which is how it was before.
yeah. And they put it out pretty much the way it was.
these Nashville wise guys? They offered to tune my guitar.
Michaela: Yeah,
Dan: It was like, fuck you. Of course they're telling me number one, that my guitar's outta tune, and number two, that they can do that.
You know,
Aaron: yeah, yeah, yeah,
Dan: Wise guy.
Aaron: okay, so all of a sudden like you were saying, you sending this to a musician that you to say, thank you for making great art. He comes back and is like, I love your [00:31:00] record, and on top of that, I wanna put your record out. What happens with the next record?
was that a shock to your creativity? All of a sudden, this person that you're admiring is listening and enjoying your record and wants to put his name next to it. Did that change the way you were writing after
Dan: well,
No, but what happened was Al Burnett, I said, dude, I, it took me a long time to make this record, like two, three years.
I don't know if I can make another one. And he said, you know, okay.
fact, the first contract I got was for two records. I, I told him, I don't know if I can do it again.
I don't know if I have it in me to make another
record. He said, okay, but you know, if you do come to us first, okay, now it turns out that's not what the contract actually said. They also said here's a contract. You know, go to a lawyer, have him look at it. and I told him right off. I was like, I'm not gonna take it to a lawyer. There's no fucking lawyer in Germany who can read this. what am I gonna Do? So I just like signed it and sent it back.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Dan: a mistake turned out okay.
it almost always took me three years to make a record. that seems to be my, [00:32:00] speed.
'cause it just, I don't
have more, more good ideas I guess.
Like, I don't understand how people can make a record every year. Like a lot of musicians make A record every year or two
even.
Michaela: don't understand that either.
Aaron: Even faster these Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. with this philosophy of like, keeping the focus on the art, which I am fully on board with all of that. I'm interested in like, how many, songs do you start recording?
Do you finish and release? Like, Do you only chase down a song that you're gonna finish? Do I wanna know how much you throw in into the trash can.
Dan: you know, I'll tell you how it is with painting, you keep maybe three out of a hundred paintings.
But I mean, I paint fast. I'm not like a slow eye, like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.
And then if it's right or maybe it's sort of right and you try it
again, and then maybe it's sort of right and you try it again until you get it. But it's
always bam, bam, bam, bam. bam. if at the end of your life you've got 10 paintings that are really good, you can be happy. Actually, that's sort of how
that works.
Songs, I would say I throw away nine, keep one.
[00:33:00] But I'm more careful With if I have an idea that I think is good there are some that have just never been finished because I couldn't finish 'em.
yeah, I would say Nine to one.
Aaron: yeah. That sounds about right.
Michaela: and that's good to hear. I feel like so many people still think, oh, everything I write should be good, and therefore. That tells me I'm a good writer. I do a lot of like music teaching and songwriting coaching. I'm like, no, we just have to put stuff on the page.
And I always cite these different conversations with songwriters that people admire of like, Rodney Crow says, that's kind of similar number of how many he writes to get to one that he, thinks is good. Mary Gaer, same thing. so it's always helpful to hear that.
Aaron: I love that story.
'cause Rodney was a guest on here a couple years ago and he shared the story of writing Shame on the Moon, which was a big hit for Bob Seger. Bob Seeker released it. had huge acclaim, all of that. And here we were talking, and that would've been what, 2023? Mm-hmm. We're talking to Rod and he's like, yeah, that, that [00:34:00] song's still not done.
He's like, that, third verse just still isn't right. You know, and this is, this came out 20 years ago and was a hit, same thing. He's like, it's still not right. He like, I'm still working on it.
Dan: I entered a song in this, it's called American Songwriter Contest, which it may be a scam, I don't know. I asked Sophie, my manager, you know, should I do this or is this like total bullshit? And she sent me a thing from some guy who had sent in, like he paid the 25 bucks and sent in his song.
And they never responded and they don't do anything. Anyway, point is, I had a song and I think it's actually a really good song. but it wasn't really finished, so I came to the studio and I was like, all right, today is the deadline for the song, for the contest, so I have to finish it. And so like under that pressure, I finished it ' cause I sort of had to, and I think, it being under that pressure actually made it better. And I think I never would've finished it otherwise. that's kind of a thing too, like if you feel like you have to, but not all the time.
like once in a while I can do [00:35:00] that.
Aaron: Yeah. Well, I don't wanna leave people hanging. Did they respond to you?
Dan: They sent me a confirmation that they got the song or that actually it's on YouTube. you send them a link to a YouTube video or a Spotify link or some other thing. so that's what I did.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Dan: Also a fun thing. It was in, they have different categories. country singer songwriter, Christian music, hip hop, you know, they got all the, all the categories.
And one of the categories is called Golden, and that is if you're 50 or older. So put
Michaela: Whoa.
Dan: so I put it in that one. And I also put it in, singer songwriter. 'cause I thought actually it deserves to be in singer songwriter.
Michaela: is recently.
Dan: Yeah. Just the other day. It was the 19th I think. you can look it up. It's on, uh, YouTube. It's called Up On the Roof. I'm very happy with it.
Michaela: I love that. Yeah.
Aaron: you think that you might actually like properly record it and put on a record sometime?
Dan: Uh, yeah. it's a good song, I think. You may not think so. You may look at it and go, this guy's full of shit. [00:36:00] think it's, I
Michaela: great, that's the beauty of it all. Yeah. I was like, that's the beauty of art. Right?
Dan: no, I think
Michaela: has the actual key,
Dan: no.
Aaron: do
Dan: what I've been doing, just to interject, I started building a synthesizer to distract myself from the political news
So that's what I'm doing lately.
Aaron: Wow. did you buy a kit? I would assume,
Dan: No,
Let's see if we can see
Aaron: Oh, wow.
Dan: Can you see that? It's actually the idea was to make a thing sort of like an accordion.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Dan: So you've got, sort of buttons just to play the chords.
You can have all three notes or you can have just two of them, or you can have one of them, 1, 4, 5.
It's, very, poorly made, but it's really fun.
Aaron: Yeah. was the impetus for that purely as a distraction, I guess,
Dan: well I had also had the idea of making [00:37:00] something like, like I've got an accordion, and I actually, I have to say I love playing the thing, just playing the chords and, uh, pumping it back and forth. 'cause you can feel it in your chest. And it's, it's a, mine is kind of a mild sounding one. It's not one of those really, ones.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Dan: But, they're also really squeaky and they make a lot of noise and they're kind of hard and heavy and annoying to put on and stuff. So I thought I'd rather have a one where you just have it electronic. So I had that idea. And the idea, actually, that's only half the idea. The other half is to have, a slide guitar.
Sort of thing on the other side using, um, this,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Dan: where you've got conductive paint here, so the resistance between here and here, well, I've getting even the notes marked off here. The resistance between here, here's a lot of resistance, here's a little bit of resistance. So the note's gonna get higher as you go up, like a slide guitar would,
Aaron: Yeah.
Dan: but turns out it's really hard to get it sort of uniform.
So I'm not done with that part of it yet.
Aaron: are you [00:38:00] teaching yourself as you go, or do you have a history in, I guess, electrical engineering and
Dan: no, no, no. I, I started learning sort of electronics. I came to the studio one afternoon. I bought a book called elementary, electronic in German. because I worked part-time and I've got three kids, I couldn't afford to buy expensive stuff, so I had kind of had to make my own.
you know, it's not that hard. You can make your own preamps and you can make your own mixers and you can make your own pickups you can actually make your own microphones now pretty easily. Or you can get these little, re microphones like the kind that's in a telephone.
They're really, really small. Well, they are bigger ones and they cost like 8 cents a piece. And the difference in sound from an 8 cent microphone and a 2000 Euro microphone, it's not that big. you have to eq out a lot of the high stuff but.
The little super cheap microphones.
They're not bad.
Aaron: it's not a 2000 euro difference in sound.
Dan: no. Well, actually right now you can buy it for a hundred Euros. You can get a really good [00:39:00] microphone.
Aaron: Yeah.
Dan: Of course. It's not as good as the, 2,500 Euro fucking Noman, thing. but, what I've noticed also is, uh, no matter what microphone I've got, it sounds like me.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Dan: who cares? You know, the good thing about good microphone, a good microphone is like, you wanna sing into it. That's the difference. It's like, it makes you happy. You hear your voice and go, that sounds good.
Aaron: But there's something to be said about having your hands in the entire creative process of the sound that you're making. for instance, the synthesizer you're making right now, if I'm understanding correctly, you had, you had the concept for it, was the concept the way it sounded or the way it functioned?
Dan: it was more the way it functioned. I wanted to have a just push buttons for the cords and then sing along with it. and actually this one's too big. It would, it should be smaller, but you kinda limited because the loudspeaker takes up room and the batteries take up room and all this crap takes up room.
yeah. And so I started trying to figure, see if we got one here. All right, here's one, this [00:40:00] is an
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Dan: oscillator's, like a two transistor oscillator.
Dan: Well, if you have like two
oscillators
going into one amplifier, what happens is they
interfere with each other. instead of having, that sound,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Dan: you end up with like, or we, we, we, we, wait, wait, wait. Or something like that. So to
avoid that, you have to put a, buffer stage in to keep the two oscillators separated so that they don't interfere with each
other Yeah.
like I would rather vacuum your house than build stupid buffer stages.
terrible. So I discovered that you can get these like little kits for function generators. They like make a square wave or a sawtooth wave or a triangular wave or a sine wave, and it cost like $1. And
they send 'em to you from China.
Aaron: Yeah.
Michaela: Yeah.
Dan: Then you have to like solder 'em together, and then you put a hundred kilo oh, resistor on the output
decouple 'em.
And then you've got yourself a, synthesizer.
Aaron: Amazing. I I love [00:41:00] that. Just hearing you, talk about this brings up, don't know his, his biography very well, but it's a composer. I think he passed in the early nineties, but his name was Harry Parch I guess it would be qualified as like contemporary classical music, so he would write these compositions and he was into Microtonal music, so he would create a scale and a tuning system for this piece of music that he was writing.
And then he would build the instruments that could play
Dan: Oh yeah.
Aaron: you know, whether they're, marimba based kind of things where you're actually carving wood to get it tuned. Right. Or synthesizers, you know, that could be tuned to that. And, you know, and that is just like, to me, going the, full extent of having complete
creative control over what you're
doing.
I guess in a way of In painting, you know, to draw it all back
around, you know, where you, you have this vision and you have this palette of colors and you mix it together to get the blue that you
Dan: yeah,
Aaron: is like specifically your blue for this as we mentioned, we have, a very young child and also a toddler. So my time to do that is nil at the
Dan: yeah.
Aaron: it is something [00:42:00] that excites me.
Dan: Really? What are you doing wrong?
Aaron: Yeah. Uh, sleeping. Yeah. Or trying
Dan: Yeah.
Michaela: very little sleep these days. If I cut
Aaron: out, you know, if I cut something outta these six hours a night that I get, maybe I'd be able to do a little
Dan: How old is the baby?
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: The baby's four
Dan: Oh, Jesus. Yeah. No, you're not gonna be any
sleeper.
Aaron: We're in it. Yeah.
Michaela: oddly, like, it feels easier second
time, the, the sleep deprivation.
Mm-hmm.
Um, like our bodies are just used to being exhausted.
Dan: There was a boxer, his name was Tex Cobb, and he was on a talk show it was when Rocky, movie came out and he
said, that's bullshit. I know a lot of boxers and what you do if you're a boxer is when you get tired, well, you just fight tired. And that's how it is having a baby.
It's
like you just go, all right, you just do it.
The bad news
is it doesn't get better. really sorry to
tell you this.
the problems get more serious is all. but you
get to sleep.
Aaron: take it as you can get it. you know, on our conversation about time, we like to be [00:43:00] conscious of the time that our guests are, being gracious enough to give to us. So, we like to kind of wrap these conversations up kind of with the same question for everybody and it's a, take your pick
It could be regarding painting, regarding music, art in general. So either something that somebody has told you along the way that continues to, resonate with you, or something that you would tell younger you as you were just stepping into having a creative life.
Dan: my 27-year-old self? I had a girlfriend she said she had looked at my, resume. And she said, the fucking navy wouldn't take you. she said, you know, at some point you have to decide to do something. You can't just fiddle with this and fiddle with that, and fiddle with this, and fiddle with that.
And that was when, actually, when I decided to be a painter. Like
just the awareness that you have,
to make a decision do something. I
just sort of assumed that I can do whatever I want whenever I want. even though I hated her gut, it turned out to be
very good
advice.
Aaron: I love that.
Dan, thank you for taking time to, sit and chat with [00:44:00] us today and, share your experience and your wisdom and your viewpoints.
Dan: you're quite welcome.
Michaela: Such a fun conversation. Thank you.
Dan: Thank you.