David Wax Museum is a critically-acclaimed indie folk band lead by husband/wife duo David Wax and Suz Slezak, who have been praised by NPR, Tiny Desk, the New York Times, Newport Folk, and even had a song featured at Pete Buttigieg's wedding. We talk about how they built and have grown a strong, enduring, grassroots community around their music that helps them remain independent, how and what they've learned about both creating and recharging together and separately as a couple, positive discoveries of the pandemic times that have reshaped their career, mental health and it's impact on their schedules, and creating entire artistic ecosystems.
David Wax Museum is a critically-acclaimed indie folk band lead by husband/wife duo David Wax and Suz Slezak, who have been praised by NPR, Tiny Desk, the New York Times, Newport Folk, and even had a song featured at Pete Buttigieg's wedding. We talk about how they built and have grown a strong, enduring, grassroots community around their music that helps them remain independent, how and what they've learned about both creating and recharging together and separately as a couple, positive discoveries of the pandemic times that have reshaped their career, mental health and it's impact on their schedules, and creating entire artistic ecosystems.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:07] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne. Thank you so much for listening, for coming back, if you've listened to other episodes, and for checking us out for the first time if this is your first episode
[00:00:21] Aaron: ever.
Yeah, we're honored to have all of you guys here. We like to think that this show is from our community for our community. Michaela and I are both You and we wanted to share artist to artist conversations with all of you. And the way that we keep this going is by getting more listeners. So if you have a favorite episode, if you wouldn't mind just passing that on to somebody you think might dig it.
Whether you share it on social media, you send it as a text message, whatever it is It's the best way for us to get in front of more listeners and the more listeners We have the longer we can do this and the more guests and ideas we can share back with you guys So we'd really appreciate it.
[00:00:53] Michaela: Yeah, and we're not your typical music promo show We're not talking about how a record was made or what's the upcoming tour or promoting anything really?
We are talking to artists about the in between times the times that they are off stage, in between tours and how They keep going. We like to focus on the behind the scenes tools and routines that they've learned along the way and found helpful in staying inspired, creative and sane while building a career around their art.
[00:01:19] Aaron: Which is an absolutely insane thing to do. There is so much that is outside of your control while you're trying to build a career around art. You can't force people to listen to your music. You can't force people to write about your music, but you can control your mindset. You can control your habits and you can control your creativity.
And so we wanted to focus on that and ask our guests the general question of what do you do to create sustainability in your lives so that you can sustain your creativity?
[00:01:45] Michaela: today's guests are the married couple, David and Suze from David Wax Museum. They are a band based in Charlottesville, Virginia. They have been around for, I think they said 16 years they've been doing this. And they are incredibly inspiring. They have two kids that they take on the road. They've built an incredible career.
They've had their share of buzz moments being featured by NPR at Boston Globe, The Guardian, The New Yorker, The New York Times, been on Tiny Desk, World Cafe, featured on Netflix shows, and even on Pete Buttigieg's wedding.
[00:02:19] Aaron: Yeah, I wish we would have asked them about that.
[00:02:21] Michaela: Yeah. they've also survived and sustained by creating a really rich community around their
music.
[00:02:29] Aaron: They shared how they really got community engagement their first time at Newport Folk Festival and got hundreds of people on their mailing list that are still active readers and engaged with their career today. And how they've leaned on their community that they've created.
We talked a lot about flexibility in, going between being a full band and presenting your music as a duo and changing that and seeing that, as an opportunity rather than a burden. something we talk about frequently on this show, an artistic ecosystem of all these different outlets that you have that are all kind of pointed towards the same goal, but being able to embrace that with your art and we've had people ask for more conversations with artistic couples that work together.
And this is the conversation for you. We go into that, we go into talking about. resentment, we go into talking about creating together in different roles, both as a couple, as a whole family. And they were really generous with their time and their experience and really open with everything. So without further ado, we hope you enjoy our conversation with David Wax Museum.
[00:03:28] Michaela: thank you guys for making time. How are you feeling? You guys just had COVID and had to cancel your whole Americana trip. That sucks.
[00:03:36] David Wax Museum: Yeah.
[00:03:39] Suz: I, I think I got the brunt of it this time, of the COVID feeling so, what are you laughing at? That we just looked at each other
[00:03:46] Aaron: Yeah,
[00:03:46] David Wax Museum: but it was just
[00:03:47] Michaela: quiet. Like, Yeah, that's what happened. Well, also
[00:03:51] Aaron: because It's been our experience with it too. It's like, yeah, that happened. It went around the ring from Georgia to Michaela to myself.
[00:03:57] Michaela: it's still a thing that's really impacting our industry and our livelihood that I think it's kind of over.
So I also just want to like, take a second to be like, this is still a thing that affects all of us in a different way than getting sick and having to cancel shows. in the past before COVID, I got COVID on Kayamo and was like quarantined. And, you miss shows, like you lose money.
There's no protections. And I've also seen festivals now. I had to sign a thing at a festival this summer that said if you miss a show for any reason, you have to pay us back your guarantee. I'm like, cool. So COVID, like, even if I get COVID at the festival, I feel like the brunt of it has been just put on artists of like, sorry, figure it out because everyone's struggling to make ends meet.
But anyways, this is not my excuse to like vent, but just kind of wanted to highlight like you guys had a whole. thing planned to come to Americana Fest and showcase and play shows and had to cancel and then deal with illness.
[00:04:59] David: I think it's hard to know how to talk about COVID in a way that feels like, what can we say about it that's new I think this time around it was a little less intense, But everybody in the family got it this time.
it all stair stepped. all the kids got it in a, different way this time. Both kids. And we were, like, trying to think of when we got it, and there were so many opportunities in our life when we could have gotten it. I think we're at a point where we want to just return back to our life and playing shows and not having to have that looming over us.
I think also when Suze first came down with it, it was also like combined with depression and just finishing this huge push that we've been doing for the last several months, since the record came out. There was some irony, and like, the last thing we were gonna do was try to just do Americana Fest like as this end of the record cycle.
Get the band together for one last hurrah like, everything's so honed right now like, let's just give it a shot at Americana Fest. We've had mixed experiences there, but we were just like... we wanna, to some degree, play the game, and like, do those steps.
when a record comes out Because in so many of other aspects of our life and career, we've just doing our own thing and kind of getting as far removed from the music industry machine as possible. and then to have it all cancelled at some point we were like, we were gonna drive and...
Then we were just feeling too burned out and we're like, all right, we're going to get plane tickets. We're going to be responsible, mature people. We're just going to fly in. And of course after we'd bought all the plane tickets for everybody, then we get sick. but I think also Suze was relieved because she was feeling so bad. And so it was like the COVID excuse was like, oh, like everybody just accepts that and knows that that's going on. It's harder to be like. We're dealing with depression here. we're struggling, we're burned out.
That was also happening as well. But I think the COVID thing was Oh Yeah.
everybody just understands and can be like, all right, that makes sense to us. that's what's going on.
[00:06:38] Aaron: Yeah, you touch on two things that have really resonated with us from COVID is that we're not so precious about things in a way. It's like, Oh, well, that didn't work out. there's the disappointment. There's the bummer. but that seems at least for me, I think I can talk to you on this.
That passes. A little quicker. It's like, ah, okay. there's a little bit less attachment, a little more acceptance of the reality, but then also what you were saying about being tired, being burnt out, being like we're done. I still don't pull the parachute when I feel like that.
It's when I get like hit by a truck, like COVID or something like that. That forces me to stop there. I'm like, oh, right. I'm burnt out and I'm tired. And this actually feels really great, which is one of the big seeds for why we wanted to start this is because notice all of our friends in our community feel that when the pandemic really hit Where first everybody freaked out.
It's like, oh my god What are we gonna do? life slowed and you know Everybody was up to their elbows in sourdough starter and their other elbow and like kombucha scobies and they're like life is pretty great. It's nice to slow down but like here we are still here of like Oh, right.
I can just choose to slow down On my own,
[00:07:38] Michaela: but it's so ingrained in us that I think there's this, connection or this connotation of slowing down or canceling things because you're mentally, emotionally worn down and then also physically is seen as weakness or not committed, or not determined enough.
And I think that is just. Perpetuated a lot in the music industry as well of well if you can't hack it, too bad then. If you have kids and your life has some complications, too bad, you shouldn't be here. If you have depression too bad, you shouldn't be here. And not this holistic look at, wait.
Wouldn't we benefit if we had support for each other and would benefit from hearing each other's stories? But that's just not the way business works.
[00:08:29] Suz: I agree, and I think there is this push to have a really full calendar, and David really feels that, he opens up our davidwaxmuseum. com slash tour, and it really matters to him how many shows he sees on there, and he looks at other people's tour schedule, and we look at each other and compare tour schedules,
[00:08:47] David Wax Museum: Of course.
[00:08:48] Suz: and so to your point of the, Stuff that happens at home is so much less visible.
And there's this sort of we're exhausted, we're nursing on the road, and we're still playing shows that gives a hero feeling that we like and that other people respond to. And they're like, I don't know how you do it. And I often respond, I don't know how you do it, people who stay at home and have a nine to five and have to be on every day, whereas we have a lot more flexibility and have to be on for those two hours, like your podcast is
[00:09:21] Aaron: Yeah, except you
[00:09:22] Suz: we have a lot more flexibility in the meantime
[00:09:24] Michaela: Yeah, you have to be on for the two hours, but then your body has to go through the travel and the, mental of, like, how many tickets did we sell tonight? what's our budget looking like? Are we losing money?
[00:09:35] Aaron: Did I bring enough t
[00:09:36] Michaela: shirts? Yeah. Oh my God. The merch organization is always I'm like, how many shirts should I bring?
And he's like, I don't know. So
[00:09:44] Aaron: if we triangulate October of 2019 with the March 2021 show. Okay. But then you got to take into account that it's this weekend and there's this NASCAR event. So many shirts, I guess, maybe I'll bring like four larges this time and it, you know, and then you sell, don't sell
[00:09:59] Michaela: any or you sell them all out.
[00:10:00] Suz: you're shipping back your t shirts and spending your
[00:10:03] Aaron and Michaela: extra.
[00:10:04] Aaron: where I was. Mikaela was talking to somebody the other day. Oh, it was during Americana Fest and we were at a friend's He threw like a full day party kind of thing. Mikaela was talking to somebody there. Getting this skinny on t shirt printers throughout the country.
Oh, yeah. So that if she's on the road and runs out of t shirts, this person knows somebody basically everywhere. They can rush, I'm like...
[00:10:21] Michaela: Yeah. This is insane. Cause I went through that where I was on tour with the Brothers and I sold out of shirts so fast and I was like, Oh, now I'm panics. People are like that's great.
You sold out. And I'm like, no. there's income that I knew I could have been creating for the last five shows and I don't have anything. And like, now I have a number to call and say, who's in Buffalo.
[00:10:44] Suz: we relate so hard.
[00:10:45] David Wax Museum: Yeah. I
[00:10:47] Suz: of course the CD sales that are like dwindle, but then one show and sell out of your CDs.
[00:10:52] Aaron: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
[00:10:54] Suz: town, they like them
[00:10:56] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:57] Michaela: Yeah. Usually in the UK. That's true. I wanted to talk about David, you mentioned that you guys have progressively moved Out of the music industry machine and continually done your own thing and I became aware of you guys and when was it 2010 that you guys won the Newport folk?
Performance slot and you guys had a moment Erin was playing with a band called The Woes and they opened for you guys at Club Passim and you guys were like, had just come off the Newport thing, we're like selling out Club Passim and it was like an onslaught of good press and I wanted to talk about what that feels like to be ejected into public awareness and in the kind of, I don't know how much of the machine you then were a part of, but I'm always interested in the disconnect between press and attention and how it translates to real Day to day experience.
Yeah, real sustainability and building because I think often we can think, Oh my God. I feel like I've personally had moments where people are like, you're on the edge of blowing up because I've been in the New York times multiple times, but it doesn't always translate fans that stick with you.
And yet we continue to spend money on very expensive publicists to garner attention. And if you guys can talk about how that's played out in your life and as you've now are years down the line from that and gain some perspective and still playing shows, but maybe have a different perspective on what you're seeking or focusing on as you continue to put music out and have a career.
[00:12:29] Suz: Great question. David, you have lots of thoughts on this. I do. Let me take this
[00:12:33] David: first. Alright. There's a lot to unpack there. yeah, that narrative is correct in terms of how we experienced it. I think that there was a sense of having a moment and a moment.
I think we were to some degree, still such a baby band in a lot of ways when that happened. We'd been doing it for several years, but, still so young and green. I think we recognized a couple things at that moment where we knew that this might be our moment We were at a point where we could just say yes to everything in that span of time.
And we had a great record kind of waiting in the wings. So we were able to take people's attention and give them a new record at that moment. at some point NPR wrote up about our, performance at Newport and called us cheerfully aggressive we, had a team of people helping us with our mailing list to make sure that everyone who was at our show got on our
[00:13:22] Suz: mailing list.
We had ten guest spots to Newport and we gave them all to people who agreed to pass around our mailing list on a clipboard to gather names.
[00:13:30] Aaron: Yeah. Did it work out?
[00:13:31] David: A hundred percent. And so, I've... It felt like all those people that were at that show we've continued to see over the years, and some of them have been some of our core group of supporters that have kept us
[00:13:43] Suz: going.
Yesterday I was looking at that list. We have our mailing list, and we clicked on the superfans, who has opened the mailing list the most, and there were a ton from August or July 2010.
[00:13:56] David Wax Museum: Wow. .
[00:13:56] Suz: maybe it's like 200 people who signed up in 2010 that are still reading our newsletter avidly,
[00:14:02] David Wax Museum: Yeah.
[00:14:02] Suz: um, And I'm sure they're from that
[00:14:04] Aaron and Michaela: day.
[00:14:04] David Wax Museum: incredible.
[00:14:05] David: that is to say that there are lasting ripples from that. And I think we built a team based on that momentum. like looking back now, I can be like I don't think we necessarily built the right team, but we kind of had enough momentum to get help and to be like, Okay, these are the pieces now we need in place to move this career forward.
But then, yeah, you hit the reality of,
[00:14:27] Suz: You only get one first splash.
[00:14:28] David: I think sometimes it's easy to look at other people's careers or friends of ours that feel like, Oh, from the outside it looks like it's just exponential growth as it goes. And you know that the story is always more complicated than that, but it's easy to perceive it that way. certainly the challenge for us has been that it's been so much up and down since then. And that we weren't really, Making music that was designed be on that kind of trajectory. And I think we still had so much more to learn and hone as performers and, touring musicians.
And, we've continued to engage with The industry and we've done the traditional routes at different points and sometimes it's paid off and it's felt like this, I don't know, we put something in and something came out and there was like this clear correlation and we have more fans or more awareness about the band, but at the heart of what's kept us going is just like a core group of fans that are supporting us either on Patreon or that tipped us during the pandemic or contributed to the barn raising.
And the fact that Suze and I can go out as a duo and set up a DIY concert in almost any environment and sell tickets ourselves and just carve out this whole little DIY niche that actually sustains us and helps us pay our bills. And we can kind of hobble together some version of what that looks like with the full band and going into venues, but that's essentially a break even affair for us at the size that we're at. And at different points we... kept pushing that version, the like, alright, we need to keep going out with the band and it's okay if we keep losing money. everybody's telling us that's what we should do and that's what feels like these opportunities are asking of us. you can do that for 10 years but at some point if you're not making money 10 years you have to really think seriously about what are you trying to get out of this and what's the goal and what's sustainable.
[00:16:11] David Wax Museum: Yeah.
[00:16:12] David: that's my first stab at trying to tackle some of those issues there.
[00:16:15] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. my interpretation of it is the Embracing like what you're able to present as a duo, never been a front man I've never fronted anything, but I've been involved with a ton of projects and obviously I'm intimately involved with Michaela's career and that Delineation between oh, I need to be out there in a band.
I need to be playing these clubs like all of that At a point, there's the ambition, there's the drive, but there's also like a little bit of ego involved of like, No, this is, gonna work. We're gonna make this work. when did that switch happen that you were like, No we can really present our music and our art, the two of us, and it stands up like this, and that's amazing.
[00:16:49] Suz: I think it's always been a push pull because playing in a band has been really challenging for me, sonically, the drummers, as dear to me as they are as people are always too loud. And my voice is quiet enough that I have to crank my microphone and then every drum smash goes through my microphone even in ears, and it's like, oh, we're in ears, you're like, okay, but I still have to have my voice loud. And so the drums and the whole stage sound still comes through my ears. And so that has always been this, challenge and dilemma as David wanted to push more with the band. And that was a real struggle for me. And I guess I'd say COVID was when we, of course only had the two of us and we did.
hundreds of zoom concerts and doing that when you didn't have any audience, except for a little heart emojis, made us have to increase our banter capability so that we would have to make ourselves and each other laugh and also try to make songs sound good. And I finally got a cool set of pedals for my fiddle and so that tone is.
fun and delicious rather than just a raw fiddle sound, which other people liked, but I never cared for on stage. just as a duo, my dynamic range could increase so much because I wasn't competing with a bunch of loud instruments on stage. So the dynamic range of the fiddle is actually quite huge.
When you can hear it all and same vocally, didn't have to holler to keep up. With the guys, so to me, the duo project opened up this huge, artistic palette that I'd never really tasted before with David. so it became very fulfilling. even when we came back online after COVID and started playing with the band again, I just felt Oh wow, as much, you know, I love that big sound and David loves it, but it's still a challenge for me.
So to have the duo as this other artistic form that we can lean into was really satisfying.
[00:18:43] David Wax Museum: That's great.
[00:18:44] Suz: Not to mention making money is satisfying
[00:18:46] Michaela: Yes, very much. That's
[00:18:47] Suz: 16 years in, we're like, Oh, we came up with money
[00:18:50] Aaron: Yeah. Yes. Oh, oh, you can do this?
[00:18:53] Michaela: I remember leading up to the pandemic, I put out a record in 2019 called Desert Dove and I was like, very committed to the full band sound. I was like, I want this five piece band with keys and electric.
guitar and I saw how like, it got a really positive response and it was building and like a short amount of time because then the pandemic happened. But I was like, Oh, yeah, this is it. I'm selling tickets. This is so awesome. I'm committed to this band. But I still was losing so much money.
And I remember two things, one being like, is this just me? why am I like sucking so bad that I'm always losing money? And then I would talk to friends who seemed like they were doing much better than me and they were like, oh yeah, I lose so much money on band tours and then I have to go do solo tours and I'm like, you do too?
And they're like, yeah, like 20 grand in the red and I'm like, what? Like, this is just, which I'm thankful. And post COVID, people even on much bigger levels are now talking about this, like that it's just been accepted business practice of, yeah, of course tours lose money. But people that lose the money are the artists, the lead people unless you have, some people have situations where they get tour support from labels, but it's not super common.
Anyways, and I just remember. coming off the tour that ended right before COVID and seeing my dates for like, the next full band tour and then I had all these support dates and I was like, these are great opportunities and it looks so good but I'm literally gonna have no money.
And I remember being, like, I just need the World to stop for a second so I could just make some money and pay off debt. It was her fault And make some money and then I could start again and then COVID happened, the world changed, and I paid off, like, all my debt in a year because I, teach Zoom lessons and like, I wasn't driving anywhere, I wasn't spending anything, and I was like, whoa, there's some real Relief that comes to your nervous system when you have your basic needs met by not drowning in credit card debt and having a balance in your bank account now that I've been touring again, I've done like one band tour Which I again lost money on but have only made money otherwise With going on solo tours or smaller band setups, and I'm just like it's that balance of like what my dream of how I want to present my art and the realities of the economics of this business and how you balance your decisions of like you said, 16 years being like this is just how it goes and we lose money and And knowing that there's also fans out there that probably love the duo set more than the band set and there's vice versa. the constant negotiation of what's good for my family, for myself, for my mental health, and then what's I think if I do this it's going to somehow get me something, And weighing what is this all worth?
[00:21:37] Suz: Yeah, we also paid off our credit card debt and made money for the first time during COVID.
[00:21:42] David Wax Museum: Crazy.
[00:21:43] Suz: support of fans, we're able to build this beautiful studio.
[00:21:46] David Wax Museum: Mmhmm.
[00:21:46] Suz: we relate to that, but also the, brought up a really interesting point that we relate to about seeing an opening run, opening run also makes zero money because opening bands get paid nothing.
Seeing that string of dates on the calendar, I think you were just saying, what is that worth to you? And that's been such an yeah, just a push pull also between David and my view of the industry and a career and value of the feather in your cap of having opened for
[00:22:16] David Wax Museum: Mmhmm.
[00:22:17] Suz: the blank, big band.
And with lots of feathers, you do make your cap or you do decorate your cap. And we both have decorated caps because we have done all these opening dates, but each one that comes up, know, the past, we would have said yes, only. And I think I certainly feel in a different mode now of being able to really consider what we're saying yes to.
[00:22:38] Michaela: How do you guys navigate your individual approaches and perspectives shifting towards and away from each other as a married couple, parents, and
[00:22:50] Aaron and Michaela: It's so easy.
[00:22:55] David: I try to be very aware about creating space for that. For me, that's been learning to like carve out space where we're not talking about the band at all. And I'm not bringing it up. And I'm not mentioning tour dates or merch. It's hard because my nature is so much of like churning on those things.
And part of the fun is that some of those conversations are just these ongoing conversations. The inspiring conversations, we get to have those at all times if we want. and recently, especially now that we have this separate space where I can come out here and dig into the creative work if I'm feeling inspired, or even if I'm not feeling inspired, but this delineated space, I think has been helpful.
And I think just realizing that we're just built so differently, for me when we come back from tour, I'll feel the most centered and the most re energized if I kind of dig back into songwriting in earnest and kind of real disciplined way and doing it for 30 years of like what gets me into a creative flow.
And that for Suze coming back from tour is a dramatically different experience and like her priorities and what she needs to re ground and re center and flourish is just an entirely different, more holistic way of engaging with the garden and like really getting the house set up in a way that's welcoming and leads to flow for her and thinking about the meal planning I'm engaged in all those things.
helping all those things too But for her that's where the centering and the grounding needs to come from You know, and I think it's been a hard spell for us because we've been in the big push of the record and we're kind of just, like I said, Americana Fest was going to be the last big hurrah of this season of the record release. I think in my mind I had this mentality of like, okay, we're just kind of in this push and we're home, but now we're home just for a couple days, and then we're going to be out again on the weekend. I thrived in that, but that was really counterproductive for Suze because it was just like she needed recovery days and like grounding days and then was dreading that we were heading back out again.
that was a real, challenging period for us of like how do we navigate these periods? I feel like we still have a lot of work to do in terms of that.
[00:24:53] Suz: Yeah. I was just telling a friend this morning what David just said about we'd come home and Yeah. David and I would know that to deal with the kind of adult, lifelong depression tied with some mania sometime, but a bipolar brain my whole life.
Everyone knows that having routine and, setting up walks with friends and exercise and having a schedule is supportive. But when we'd get home, And I'd say, great, every Wednesday, see this friend, but there would only be two Wednesdays because we'd be leaving eight days later, would feel so jarring to me, or any time thinking, okay, I'll finally make a plan and make a schedule, but then it's so disrupted with the touring we were doing.
Even though the touring is so energizing and wonderful and Supportive socially and soul fulfilling and all those things But being at home when there's only a short period felt almost like nothing or felt like worse than not coming home at all or because unlike David who just jumps right in the next literally next morning into this other mode of being I would totally crash and then would need so long to recover that we'd already be leaving again.
[00:26:00] Aaron: so important to point out for yourselves, identifying what is most helpful and most natural for you to return to like your everyday rhythm, but then also as a couple honoring that in your partner for us, what's worked is like honoring and then also creating situations where there's room for your partner to be that, especially, as you guys know, juggling logistics with kids.
It's like, how do I carve out space for myself and get my needs met, but then also balance that with How do I create a situation and space for Mikayla to take her time and be able to do what she needs to do to operate as her highest self?
Can be difficult with the in and out of being on tour because it's such a change in schedule. But, conversely, when you're home for a while, it can turn into like a really positive kind of feedback loop you really start to both grow together and then you hit the road again.
Well,
[00:26:52] Michaela: and I think it's also it's so hard in partnership, especially when you also work together, to honor what The other person needs when it also might be at odds with what you need or want and could be viewed as an inconvenience. I feel like we still like, navigate that of just Always trying to look at it with great empathy if one of us is struggling because we feel overwhelmed in our schedule or overworked or whatever and then the other person be like, God, why are they being such an asshole?
Because they need a day off or they need whatever when maybe, I'll use an example of where sometimes I just want to barrel ahead and be like, let's have 20 people at our house all the time. And Aaron's like, cool, I love people and friends too, but I need a little more Me time, he's an only child like, he's like, and I'm like, you don't like people and he's like, that's not what's happening here.
[00:27:43] Aaron: I also like myself. Yeah
[00:27:47] Michaela: i've learned that a lot of like wait This is different than what I want or need but how do I honor what he needs, even if it means I'm not getting what I want for this exact moment, and maybe it just means I'll get what I want in a delayed time.
And how to like give each other that space of, oh yeah, I've learned that my partner really needs this recovery time that I don't need. And how do we make room for both? There's just so much negotiating that happens inside your own brain and then outwardly together. And then add kids into the mix, and these other personalities of what they need, and holy shit, it's overwhelming.
I mean,
[00:28:27] Suz: Yeah. I think for me it's been this, I'm still working on how not to resent.
[00:28:32] David Wax Museum:
yeah. Mm
[00:28:32] Suz: David's self discipline, ambition, when I, my body is just not built like that. And so I feel like, oh my gosh, for 16 years I've had to watch this very disciplined person And, feel like I'm never measuring up. and then with how much touring we did in our early days, I gave up having a house to tour. I gave up having a home and a garden. A cozy spot, because we lived in crappy, free places, um, and we lived in the van, with a bunch of dudes, so our house is so full of soft, cute, pink things, I think of it like that, I'm just so sick of rehearsal spaces that are all black and have no windows, and studios that are so sterile and masculine.
[00:29:16] Michaela: rooms that are disgusting and
[00:29:18] Suz: Oh,
[00:29:18] Michaela: stickers all over mirrors so you can't even see yourself. That's true.
[00:29:22] Suz: Not to mention no toilet paper. Um, So Yeah.
I feel like I'm still internally need payback. I just need more time at home and I need to show that I can't just keep going in his incredible, beautiful Energizer bunny type of way.
So I think that's something that I'm dealing with and stating publicly.
He knows I feel
[00:29:44] Aaron: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
[00:29:46] Suz: You guys don't have any resentments, so I know
[00:29:49] Aaron: Right.
[00:29:49] Suz: it's all me, but,
[00:29:51] Aaron: Well, it's funny because,
[00:29:52] Suz: long standing ones.
[00:29:54] Aaron and Michaela: Yes.
[00:29:54] Aaron: yeah, exactly. I feel like can really resonate with that Suze because for so long basically I've been Michaela's employee, you know as like a sideman. I was on the road a lot I passed up other tours with other bands because Michaela had some shows or whatever is for years And then it was like the year before the pandemic hit.
I was like, I've got my own thing happening. I was producing more. I was starting to write more on my own. And I was like, this needs to even out more like this just is not working. And in typical me fashion, it hadn't been working for years, but I didn't really understand why, I kind of need to get like really slapped in the face to be like, Oh, right. this isn't working. can totally understand no, I need to like carve out my own thing and we've, really done that now where it's I mean we've made records together and all that But like this podcast is really the first thing that we've ever created together where it's like both of us Equal, which is a really cool way create things but it has been a very intentional focused resetting of our roles and our habits of being two individuals working in parallel rather than like some kind of tree vine situation that's just all entangled, growing together.
[00:31:04] Michaela: Or in the dynamic of when it was always my project and Aaron working for me. At the end of the day, The was uneven because I could be like Well, it's my music. And this working together, it's... our thing and there's a lot of intentional, also tough conversations where all of a sudden resentments that we've been together 16 years and resentments come out of like stuff that you're uncovering from literally 16 years ago and you're just like, why are we still talking about this?
But
[00:31:31] Aaron: I was 22,
[00:31:35] Michaela: but one thing I already shared this on the podcast in an episode with Dukette Johnson, but. One thing that's been so helpful only recently is we go to therapy every once a while and our therapist told us, it's really okay to grieve the things that your partner doesn't have that you wish they had.
If you always saw that you dreamed you were going to marry someone who was going to be like this and you ended up choosing someone who's not like that, it's okay to grieve that. And I really was like. It is. Like, I don't have to feel bad about wishing my partner was different, but he really explained like that process of grieving it then allows a bigger acceptance of being like, man, yeah, I wish that Aaron did this differently, but reality is he's not going to.
And I chose this partner and there's so many other gifts in it, but I can recognize that there's a part of me that wishes. It was different and grieve the fact that I'm not going to have that life, whatever it is so I thought that was helpful, especially when you work together and your disappointments that come in your career, you can start being like, maybe it's your fault.
Maybe you've been holding me back all this time.
[00:32:43] Aaron: I heard that.
I wanted to shift that to, Suze, I know you just recently put out your own record, right?
[00:32:50] Suz: Yeah, last year.
[00:32:51] Aaron: is this your first
[00:32:52] Suz: Yeah,
I put out a lullaby album when our first kid was small, but didn't really have much my own song writing on there, but this is the first full length album with all original songs.
[00:33:05] Aaron: yeah. How does that feel? as the two of you having been, almost exclusively David Wax Museum. for so long and now you're stepping into having your own outlet and your own thing.
[00:33:15] Suz: Yeah, I mean, we have this in common also, the band has David's name in it, and it really is all his songwriting, and so I think there was that same, he would never say to me, this is my music he's so inviting of everyone's collaborative creativity, he really leans on that in a healthy way, I think.
But it did feel? important to me as a 40 year old feminist woman in the 2020s to have something with my name on it. And that really helped some of that resentment that I was alluding to about working with his band. You know, I know we're both fronting this band, but it's his name and his songs.
so that felt like, okay, I also have. My own album now but I don't want to be a front person. I did a few solo shows and they were gratifying, but extremely hard would be a whole other muscle to strengthen. not just because you are a co fronter of one band doesn't mean you can front another band.
It's a totally different art form. It didn't make me feel like, great, now I have my own solo project and I'm going to do this on the side, even though I am working on some other songs and want to put out another album at some point soon, like within the next three years,
[00:34:26] Aaron: hmm. Yeah. Totally.
[00:34:28] Suz: but yeah, I feel like it's a great balance now because as a, friend of ours once told us that, Instead of picturing yourself as the band, as David Wax Museum, you need to think bigger and have yourself as the two artists, and underneath you, you have the band project, and I have my solo project, and my writing.
But to stop thinking of yourself as the band, which I think you two are doing, or should do, you're two different people, artists, creatives, and then one of the things you do together is the Michaela Ann Project. which you have different power dynamics, and that's okay, different responsibilities and, one thing you now do is this podcast, one thing you do is parent together, but have the two of you as the top of the umbrella.
[00:35:10] David Wax Museum: Mm hmm.
[00:35:10] Suz: Because I was a feeling always uncomfortable under the David Wax Museum umbrella, like you're a musician in that band, like that's you, and I always felt it's not all me, that's not just me, I'm not just a musician and really feeling. Stifled by that label.
[00:35:23] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, I can absolutely relate to that.
[00:35:26] Suz: Erin, I feel like when we watch you from the outside, like, Oh, it's her husband and he does this in the band and he does this in, producing. No one sees you as under her umbrella, and no one would, look at me and be like, Suze is just David's wingman.
You know, It's, no one else sees that, but of course we do feel that. And, just knowing that it's not like that from the
[00:35:47] Aaron and Michaela: outside.
[00:35:48] Aaron: Yeah. That's such a great thing to point out. these labels that we put on ourselves and how limiting that can be, whether they're conscious labels or subconscious labels, I think for me, like I said, I think things need to be, a little more blatant for me to realize that I would like to admit, so this blatant, division.
Of time where, you know, I play like maybe three shows with Michaela a year at this point. And that fissure for me has empowered me and inspired me and open up my creativity, which, on a day to day while we're home, nothing's different, really. No, and it's really just labels, Yeah. And I know from the outside it, it doesn't look that way at all,
[00:36:23] Michaela: I think there's also like Aaron choosing to shift his mindset and focus on himself and his desires and creativity and letting himself like expand out of the box of just, I'm a drummer and I drum for my girlfriend or wife and a bunch of other artists.
Him taking that time and really investing in himself then emanates throughout his life. it's hard to remember sometimes when we meet our own needs and spend time to take care of ourselves. It It enables us to then care for the people in our lives and show up to projects where we're in service of others in such a more full, rich way, and it's always such a balance of what's selfishness and what's going overboard on where everything's trendy of like, I need my self care and you know, it's all about me and my boundaries
you need a balance of prioritizing yourself, but with the intention of, then I have the ability of showing up selflessly and generously for the people in my life and the people I work with. And I've seen that so much in Aaron, even though his time is taken away from him.
Devoting it to me and my projects because he's in demand with other things. It's helped our relationship and our working relationship so much that I enjoy working together more. Even if I have to be like, okay, can you fit me in like next month to work on songs? It's so much better than when he was that was what he was doing was helping me, you know. I wanted to ask about parenting with you guys as artists and touring artists, because we get this question all the time, especially me as a mother, because I feel like it's something that is not super elevated of women artists continuing to have artistic careers especially touring careers and just the, nitty gritty and the logistics because so many people are like, okay, I see how you're doing it, but if like, you're not in a bus with full time nannies that you're paying on salary is this possible?
And I hear it all the time from especially other female artists of I think I want to have kids, but I really want to have my career. And I just don't see how there's a way to have both. So I'd love to talk about that for a minute. If you guys. feel open to it?
[00:38:39] Suz: that was always really important. I mean, like the first hour of realizing we were going to be together, it?
was important to me to say, I want to have kids and a career and have them intermingled and have my life all be one. So that was totally paramount and way more important to me was if we were going to go on the road, be able to bring our kids.
And just knowing that was going to happen from the beginning, and I would definitely not tour if I couldn't bring the kids. that knowledge, I think, David had to be on board anywhere, of course. Um,
[00:39:10] David Wax Museum: hmm.
[00:39:10] Suz: But there was never a like, decision, are we going to do this or have kids? It was always...
[00:39:16] David Wax Museum: We're doing both.
[00:39:17] Suz: And then the way we've been able to have help is just, hiring as an internship basically meaning very low pay, but very short term. We don't have a salaried nanny. We have a 20 something who's between jobs come for two weeks. We have college kids on summer break. We have my parent. We've had other family members.
Fans who we barely know, fans friends who I just talk to on the phone and get a good vibe from and then hire, to my mom's dismay, but really just put out a wide net and know that the right person is going to come and we have to have someone else on the road, of course, because we're both on stage and we've always found that person.
[00:39:59] David: Yeah, I mean, I think it's just accepting and knowing that with every tour, there's like the tour logistics, and then there's also just like our parenting logistics to some degree. what's the kid plan? okay, if the road nanny has to leave early on this tour, so what are we going to do these three nights of the tour when we don't have someone?
figuring it out with every different promoter or friend that's hosting the show. Or someone that we know in that community that can help us out. And just asking for help. That's been a really important part of it. And knowing that for us to pull this off, we really have to lean into the community. part of the reason we moved to Charlottesville right before our daughter was born was we just, it became so starkly apparent that if we were going to pull this off we were going to need more family support, more direct family support. And so there have been times recently where the routing got so crazy, where we were driving such long distances that it made sense to leave the kids for a couple days here with grandparents. just knowing that we could do that, that we had that fallback option. that was a real shift for us to not think, oh, the kids are always coming with us like, of course, that's how it's going to be. We've always imagined that and have worked to make that
[00:41:00] Suz: possible.
Though they're six and nine now, so it's a lot easier to leave them home and have them feel safe and happy.
[00:41:06] Michaela: Yeah, I was gonna ask now that they're older and obviously can communicate really well, how do they feel about Touring and going on the road with you guys or, staying behind
[00:41:17] David: I mean our daughter hates venue shows. if we have to play a bunch of venue shows where she can't be involved, she just, laments that and moans about it. So it has been thinking about like, what serves our family? I feel like we finally dialed that in recently with this, we want to be in New England in the summer.
let's figure out a tour where the drives are manageable. where we have lots of friends, where we go to lots of exciting places, when it's just a short drive, we can have an adventure in the morning and go do something special.
[00:41:44] Suz: which never used to happen.
People are like, you get to see some of the country. And you're like, yes, the dumpster behind the venue is so lovely. At every venue, the dumpster is a different
[00:41:53] Aaron: Yeah. I know every love's truck stop. East of the Mississippi.
[00:41:57] Suz: But now we had our first stop at a swimming hole before a show because we were playing Vermont and then we were playing New Hampshire the next day and there was an only, two or three hour drive. what David's referencing is that the DIY shows. And the more family friendly shows are just awesome for the kids because they love setting up merch and our daughter loves selling merch and she, they like, whenever we play a song, they grab the record and jump up and down in front of the audience holding that record during the chorus.
Um, so they're to our chagrin sometimes or embarrassment, but also it's funny. the shows that they can actually be at really fun for them now.
[00:42:33] Aaron: Yeah, I think you guys are touching on something that really occurred to us because we've toured a lot with our daughter and embracing change that needs to happen, which I think is in a way to me is like really related to the shift to play more duo shows and more band shows.
It's it's part circumstantial, but it's also like it doesn't have to be a burden. It doesn't have to be this thing that creates a lot of resentment. It's this opportunity to experience things in a new way that you can take of these new boundaries that are set. And make them really amazing who knew two and a half hours in the drive like stopping in a playground for 45 minutes is really fucking fun that's great it's a great way to like get outside and move around and slide down a slide a couple times and then you know you keep going and it's this is actually really enjoyable one of the first long tours we took our daughter on was with the milk carton kids And same thing, we were in New England, we had a relatively short drive.
And so we all went to the aquarium first thing in the morning. their whole touring party and the three of us, they didn't have kids with them, but they're like, yeah, we'll go to the aquarium. That sounds fun. And we went and stared at some whales for a while. And we're like, cool, great.
See ya. We'll see you at the venue. It was amazing.
[00:43:37] Michaela: Yeah. I think Learning that there's no one way to build a touring career and that you still can have a viable, sustainable touring career, even if you're not plugged into the system of the machine of the business of this is how agents, will route a tour, you're going to do a release tour, you're going to do six weeks, cover the whole country, whatever You don't have to do it that way. and maybe it will be hard to find an agent who wants to be on board with that, but I think opening up, expanding our awareness of like, oh, Maybe it might take some creativity, it might take more legwork on our end, but you could design a life that's really in service to what meets your needs like booking shows, maybe you have a little more time in between them, but you have your family with you and you keep your overhead down, so it's okay to be out a little bit longer, but you're then able to stop at swimming holes or take the scenic route or stop at museums.
There are are endless possibilities for how to do this. Another reason why we wanted to have this podcast, cause I started out very DIY and then got into the machine and got a label deal and a big shot agent and all this stuff and that fizzled with COVID and adding a child to the mix.
And there was this grief a while and now I'm coming to this idea of Oh wait, I could do whatever I want. It might take extra work, it might be new, or maybe it hasn't been done, you can create with the community, with fans your own ecosystem, even if it doesn't fit into the model that we've done over and over and over again that the industry really recognizes.
It's just as valid because you're playing music for people who want to receive it. And spend money on it.
[00:45:25] Suz: I love that idea of creating your own ecosystem. We think about that a lot.
[00:45:28] David: I think there was a realization at some point that, in the early part of the career, it.
felt like, yeah, there were these, steps that we were supposed to take, this is kind of what people do to get to the next level.
But then at some point it becomes very apparent that, Those steps don't apply after a certain level where it's just like you have to really build your own thing that makes sense for you as an artist and your family and your personal needs. all these things you can't control in terms of like how people are responding to your music, like where it's thriving, where it seems like it's connecting with people.
And being open to how that unfolds. to pull some of these different threads together. I've kind of appreciated too that when we go out, just the two of us as the duo, I think Suze feels a lot more ownership of what comes across it feels like it's more the co equal kind of presentation of the band.
And we had this experience just recently at, this music festival, that Over the Rhine, this incredible... band, that's a couple, puts on at their home in Ohio. we finally had a weekend at a festival. We were there all weekend and we got to put forward all these different parts of who we were and are.
Sue's got to read, do some of her reading. We performed as a duo. We were interviewed to talk about our relationship and how that plays out through the band. We got to do the full band show. We got to sit in, with Ben. So Lee Suze played some of her solo songs. it was incredible to be at a festival and an opportunity to do all those things that felt like, Oh yeah, this is kind of a more realistic acknowledgement of who we are and what we have to offer. And it connected with people when they saw that whole picture. It made me appreciate that sometimes when we just kind of, alright, we're like just doing a band show at this one place, you realize that people are just getting to interact with you or know you through such a limited scope in terms of what you have to offer.
when people see us and interact with us as a duo, they get a little bit more of that scope inherently. And then If they want to go deeper and then they can start following Suze and her whole journey and then following on her sub stack and then it starts opening all these other doors of kind of who we are What we're trying to put out in the world artistically and your
[00:47:22] Suz: experience with mexican
[00:47:23] David: music and giving people these different avenues to go deeper with us and Appreciating that the traditional music industry doesn't really have a way to deal with that or know how to accept the multitudes that we contain as a collaboration, individually. And so the challenge has been knowing that we have a lot to offer and that our partnership has a lot of ways to be expressed. And that the ways that are placed before us, just realizing the limitations that are built into those because of these pre formatted things that are like designed so that like another band can go down the chute and everybody that's part of the team doesn't have to like reinvent the wheel every
[00:47:56] Michaela: Yeah, exactly.
[00:47:57] David: because that's just too much work for people.
[00:47:59] Michaela: Yeah, and people are spread thin, and it's hard to get creative, and the industry is changing constantly, so it's, you're jumping from thing to thing of where do we put our attention. So that can be really daunting. Or we could think, like you said, okay, how do we want to express ourselves more fully and let's get creative?
the good thing about the technology at hand today is that there's all these different avenues to communicate to people.
[00:48:24] Aaron and Michaela: Mm hmm. Mm,
[00:48:24] Michaela: I just joined Substack, and Suze, I love your writing and I've I've been following your journey from afar, Substack is like Instagram for nerds, and I love it!
[00:48:35] Aaron: Yeah, and for people listening, we'll put a link to Susa Substack in the show notes with everything. So if you want to read what her writing is, it'll be in there. what an amazing opportunity that festival seems. Both, for you guys to be able to present. Your whole width to people, but also, total assumption, but I assume like it must be really fulfilling to be able to present that just for yourselves and be like, these are the magnitudes that we possess as artists, but it's all pointing towards the same outlet, the same goal, the same, thing out on the horizon. All of these different threads all point to that same thing and I see it with younger artists and I experienced it in both of our careers when we were younger. It's like we thought there was one way to do it. This is the way, it has to be this in if I deviate from that, then I'm just taking power away from that one thing.
And it's
[00:49:20] Suz:
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Diluting or something.
[00:49:22] Aaron: there are multiple outlets To really get to that same vision and that same like point of fulfillment. I guess it would be They can be really inspiring if you embrace that whole ecosystem like we said
[00:49:31] Suz: Yes. Oh, that's so helpful. I feel inspired. And even though you see an artist like Josh Ritter writing novels, painting, like a lot of artists, obviously, have lots of creative outlets. How do we possibly share all those without that sense you need? There's also this trope about you just dive into one and you become an expert at one thing And that's the only way to become a success.
Ten thousand hours at one thing. Don't stop till your arm falls
[00:49:59] Michaela: Yeah. And you're going to distract if you try and share other things and you have to drill one thing in because people's attention span. It's like, after a while feels like a pretty oppressive way to live. So like.
[00:50:12] Aaron: You guys see it in your garden, if you just planted only one type of tomato, they probably wouldn't do that great but you guys have, yeah, you guys have, flowers and vegetables and all that and they all feed each other.
maybe like this insect comes because the flowers smell really good but then this gets pollinated and all too. I think it's the same with fans. Somebody might read your subject and be like, wow, this person is really great with pros and like, wow, these songs are amazing too.
[00:50:32] Suz: you calling our fans
[00:50:33] Aaron and Michaela: bugs?
[00:50:34] Aaron: You're a pollinator. Yes, I am. I had, I don't know many
[00:50:39] Suz: And we're the flowers, we're the flowers, of course.
[00:50:42] Aaron: what I'm saying. It's a positive. You guys are just beautiful flowers with great pollen and it smells so great.
[00:50:47] Suz: I love the metaphor. I'm going to hold that one
[00:50:49] Aaron: We
[00:50:49] David Wax Museum: should
[00:50:50] Michaela: wrap up because our child is also home today. I know you said your kids were home and we have a friend that was wandering in the back with a puppy there's so many more things I would love to talk to you guys about. So hopefully we'll, have you back on, um, down the line and thank you so much for giving us your time.
[00:51:05] David: Our pleasure. Yeah. I'm a big fan of the podcast. love what you. guys are for doing
[00:51:09] Aaron: you. Yeah, thank you. Well, we're honored to have you both here. So thank you for opening it up a little bit and sharing with us what your experience has been.
[00:51:14] Suz: Thank you. Likewise.
[00:51:15] David: Be well.