Devon Gilfillian has released records on both Capital and Fantasy Records, played on Colbert and Kimmel, and opened for The Brothers Osborne, My Morning Jacket, Mavis Staples, Gladys Knight and more. We chat with him about how routine can create freedom in your life, the importance of physical wellbeing both on the road and at home, building a machine that can provide for your people, using your platform and voice as an artist, and all points in between.
Devon Gilfillian has released records on both Capital and Fantasy Records, played on Colbert and Kimmel, and opened for The Brothers Osborne, My Morning Jacket, Mavis Staples, Gladys Knight and more. We chat with him about how routine can create freedom in your life, the importance of physical wellbeing both on the road and at home, building a machine that can provide for your people, using your platform and voice as an artist, and all points in between.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to today's episode of the other 22 hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:05] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne. And this is the second year of our podcast and we're so happy to still be here. So thank you for being along for the ride or for just joining us.
If this is your
[00:00:14] Aaron: first time. Yeah, we are so fortunate to be nearing 50 episodes of this show and we're keenly aware that we can't do this without you guys being here, so thank you so much. If we can have a simple ask for you, we've got like kind of a three tiered ask now, different stages of engagement.
The easiest would be, just hit follow or subscribe on whatever platform you listen to. you like what we do, it will let you know every week, every Wednesday when a new show is out. tier number two would be to just tell a friend if you have a favorite episode, maybe it's this one Maybe it's one that aired last year.
Just pass it on to somebody that doesn't know what we do. this show is for our community from our community And so the bigger the community the more guests and ideas we can share back with you And then if you're a big fan of this show and you want to help support it, we have a patreon there's a link in the show notes below us or you can go to the other 22 hours comm and click on patreon and Get Some behind the scenes access, some extra content, you'll find out the guests before we interview them So you get a chance to have your questions answered by those guests and just generally interact more with what's going on here
[00:01:19] Michaela: We're not music journalists.
We're working musicians ourselves. So we're able to have We like to think even more honest, peer to peer conversations about the reality of building a lifelong career in this music business and how to Stay centered in our creativity and still honor all the things that make us whole healthy human
[00:01:41] Aaron: beings Yeah And we've heard from a lot of people from writers to painters to oncologists that a lot of what we talked about here about Creativity applies to them as well and We are humbled by that.
I think if you have tried to build a career around your art at all, you realize that there is a lot that is outside of your control. And so we like to focus on the things that are in our control, being our mindsets, our routines, our headspace. And to get there, we formulate this core question of the show that We never really ask outright, but that question is, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
And we had the pleasure of asking that question of Devin Gilfillian today.
[00:02:25] Michaela: And Devin is an incredible singer and songwriter and performer. He has had a pretty wild career in a short amount of time. He has toured with everyone from Brothers Osborne, Grace Potter, to the legends Mavis Staples, Gladys Knight, and Michael McDonald.
We didn't even ask him about that. No, I didn't even get there. He's been on National TV, on CBS Saturday Morning, Colbert, Kimmel, but we've known him for a long time just around Nashville. I think the one time I shared a stage with Devin, was on a city bus, which we also didn't get
[00:02:59] Aaron: to.
Wow, didn't even remember
[00:03:01] Michaela: that. Years ago, we did a uh, weird promo thing on the WeGo Nashville city buses where we, we weren't even moving. I think we were just a parked bus. We were. To promote, uh, public transportation, which we definitely feel strongly about. Yeah. We need
[00:03:19] Aaron: more of it here.
Yeah. Like Michaela said, Devin has done a lot in a short time. in 2016, he released his first self titled EP independently, and from there Signed with Capitol Records and put his first full length out on Capitol Records at the very opportune time of January, 2020, and you can imagine what happened from there, all that excitement and right into the pandemic.
And so we get to talk with Devin about that experience, which is not too dissimilar from Katie Pruitt's experience that we talked with her last year. To releasing his new record this year on fantasy records everything in between all of that with his longtime buddy who's also his drummer and his manager who apparently they met while Devin was training him as a server at City Winery here in Nashville, and they've grown from there and we talked about Devin's love of a morning routine, which I was psyched about because if you listen to any of these episodes, I'm a big fan of that straight through Talk about difficult things in your music and politics and current culture and the role of that in art.
[00:04:20] Michaela: we are so grateful to have had this time with Devin. And so without giving any more away, here's our conversation with Devin Gilfillian.
just so you know, hopefully, because it's a snow week, our daughter is home this week, so she's in our vocal booth right now.
We just
[00:04:35] Aaron: set her up with a, some blankets and a snack and an iPad in the vocal booth, so if you hear anything.
[00:04:41] Michaela: So hopefully we won't get interrupted, but that might happen, but she's got her
[00:04:46] Devon: congratulations, by the way. That's amazing.
[00:04:49] Aaron: Thanks. Thank you.
[00:04:50] Michaela: How are you doing? How's your snow week going?
[00:04:52] Devon: It is so chill. I love it. I'm from outside Philly, so I love the snow and I miss the snow. And this is we got eight inches over here in Madison. this is the most snow I've ever seen in Nashville.
[00:05:05] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:05:06] Devon: so I was I just been, I had a meatball sandwich actually for lunch.
I made some meatballs. On Sunday and Megan, my lady, she made some carnitas. So we just been eating tacos and meatballs. We're gonna eat some spaghetti and meatballs tonight. I'm double down and I'm bang banging on meatballs today.
[00:05:22] Aaron: Amazing.
[00:05:23] Devon: Meatball sandwich, then spaghetti and meatballs tonight. My lactose intolerance, I can do a little shave parm, on top, but that's as far as it gets. That's, I gotta keep it, can't go Alfredo on them any, anymore.
[00:05:36] Aaron: where are you from outside of Philly?
[00:05:38] Devon: I'm from a small town Morton, Pennsylvania.
[00:05:41] Aaron: Bucks County,
[00:05:43] Devon: it's Delaware County a little north, Northwest of Philly. yeah, Delco. As they call it. Are, Are y'all familiar? You familiar?
[00:05:51] Aaron: Yeah, we lived in New York for a long time. One of my closest friends is from Bucks County. So, I don't know much about Bucks County, but I've heard stories because he grew up there.
[00:06:00] Devon: I don't know how much Jonathan told you that the whole premise of this podcast is to talk about. the things that we don't usually talk about, like the stuff we don't really post about on social media, not promoting our records or tours, trying to just have like real conversations about the reality of surviving the music industry and building a lifelong career and how you can like continually grow to stay centered. in yourself and your creativity and take care of yourself. We're trying to have conversations mostly with people who've been in this at least.
[00:06:35] Michaela: A few album cycles so not only had the taste of the good times, but have had some come downs as well.
[00:06:42] Devon: how did you know, how did you know exactly where I was at in my life? I love it.
[00:06:53] Michaela: with people that we've had on that we know really well and have had intimate conversations with when we come on here and have it, it's been so cool to be able to dig in even deeper. So, we've been around each other a handful of times over the last several years, but, I've been really interested in watching also how, You talk about things publicly important, heavier things that a lot of artists might feel like they need to shy away from.
how you manage all that stuff, how it affects you personally and then obviously, yeah your career stuff. We're excited. To have you,
[00:07:26] Devon: so excited, I'm just really excited to talk about all of this. And, because, God, it's so necessary, and I'm like, this is like therapy, it feels
[00:07:34] Aaron: it is for us, too. It's just like, you know, our, whole goal with this thing, we started it because, everybody hit that point in the pandemic after the anxiety subsided a little bit where it's like, oh, this is kind of nice, I have some space, I can do other things, It felt like kind of people's FOMO turned off when everybody realized that everybody was at home, like, Oh, I don't have to be in this race right now. And then I'm not sure if you experienced it, but like our circle and our crew, like what we saw is when things opened up, it was like letting go of a slingshot and everybody like just bounced like right back into it. so we were having these kinds of conversations about like, This is hard. I'm not doing well. I don't know how to do this. And then everybody felt like they were the only ones experiencing that, and so our goal with this is no, we're all in this together. Let's just share it.
Let's be candid about our experiences and what we've found that helps us. And maybe, you know, as the tide rises, so do all the ships and we can share some info.
[00:08:28] Devon: And I love it. I love it.
[00:08:29] Michaela: so we are also excited because I from my internet sleuthing discovered that you have a degree in psychology
[00:08:36] Devon: Look at, man, you do your homework, Mikayla. Oh my god. No. It is true. It is true. I got my bachelors in psychology and I'm really glad that I did. really has helped a lot I think going to therapy is actually the thing that will help the most and, even getting a, having a bachelor's in psychology, like that didn't help as much as actually go into therapy, but it definitely, gave me a, guideline of how to be empathetic towards people and how, so many people are coming from different walks of life and places and, like mental illnesses and so many people have mental illnesses that they don't know about.
we have to. to be aware of that. And, how to look yourself in the mirror and, be like, what's going on here. and so that has for sure helped me as a, songwriter and a, and a human
[00:09:25] Michaela: I also read you didn't start doing therapy until recent years though, is that true?
[00:09:31] Devon: it is, I started therapy like 20, 20. One, I feel like I think I actually did a couple sessions in 2020 and before that, maybe in 2019 I had a session or two, didn't stick, but 2021 I was like, all right, I need to like stay in therapy for at least six months. And I did that and I am not in therapy right now.
But I'm definitely like, Hey, you know, it's time. I need to, there's no like bells alarms or anything going off or anything like that. But like, I know and y'all know that you have to give yourself the tools before the, the hurricane hits, you gotta know when, when the board up the windows and have all the stuff ready.
Yeah. So that you're ready when it, when the storm comes.
[00:10:14] Michaela: We are unabashedly big advocates of therapy,
[00:10:18] Aaron: I was really resistant for a long time. I've been really into like meditation and mindfulness kind of, I guess like self awareness. I say that as a joke, being on this side, because I think. speaking with a therapist or speaking with somebody else that's not your partner and not somebody close that can be a good mirror. really helps your awareness expand, but I was really resistant to therapy for a long time and probably felt some stigma around it and all of that.
And. Starting like 2017, I really like dove in and just like caught the bug and I'm not in therapy currently because I have a very like specific thing I want to, again, I'm using it like as a tool, but it's not a all the time thing for me. I know it's dip my toe in here on specifics, but it's been a massive help for me.
[00:10:57] Devon: Incredible.
[00:10:58] Michaela: Yeah. did you feel any resistance of? Even with a psychology degree of going into therapy yourself.
[00:11:04] Devon: for sure. Absolutely. I feel like, because I have a psychology degree, I was like, ah like, I kinda like know, what they're gonna tell me or whatever, and like, for the most part 30 percent of that, you know, of me that felt that way.
70 percent of me was like, dude, you don't know a damn thing come on now like, get your ass in therapy, it's time to talk to somebody about all, all of this that's going on, cause, you know damn well that you gotta face some real stuff,
[00:11:31] Aaron: yeah. Man, I can relate to that feeling so well. We both went to music school. so I feel that all the time. It's that idea of like zen mind, beginner's mind. Where it's like, ah, man, I know that. I know that. the older I get, the more I go back to just learning basics like your training or just basic music theory or anything like that, things that I would, shake my nose at and be like, ah, that's I paid a lot of money to learn that.
I already know that. And. Man, am I wrong? , you know, well, it's just like humbling myself to be open to feedback that's basic and beneath me has been massive. I feel like
[00:12:01] Michaela: there's such a difference between knowing something intellectually and having information and practiced embodiment. so many things that I'm like, I know this, but I have to re embody it constantly to keep it in practice whether it's therapeutic practice or musical practices or writing practices you don't just take in knowledge and then forever you have it.
You have to like, continue to hold it and align with it.
[00:12:30] Devon: That is so, so, so real. So true. especially I feel that as an artist, as a musician, waking up and I need to write, doing the artist way. I'm like, I gotta get my journals, my pages in. get the critic out of the way and get in that routine of practicing guitar and, practicing, getting an A and a B section of a song or whatever it may be and yoga too, like you're saying, practicing mindfulness and, embodying it, The routine to me is, what saves my life. as a musician, as an artist building that, timeframe for yourself. I have, the back of a 90 year old, speaking of, to get into the physical so I have to stretch for an hour every morning.
No matter what. physical therapy. And then I do like 20 minutes of yoga, yoga with Adrian it's great. I like chill. I get my get into my Zen mode. I'm getting to my flow. Listen to the daily, I'm stretching or whatever. And like get into my day and coffee, juice, got my juice going
[00:13:31] Michaela: green juice?
[00:13:32] Devon: yeah, it's a little apple, kale, carrot, cucumber, ginger,
[00:13:36] Aaron: Oh, delicious.
[00:13:38] Devon: you know,
[00:13:38] Aaron: I'm a big fan of morning routines and all that. if we can get into micro of it. So like you wake up and you stretch kind of first thing. Is that what it is? You start with the stretch and then go from there?
[00:13:47] Devon: Start with the stretch, that's it. Otherwise I'm walking like a penguin for the rest of the day. Like,
[00:13:52] Aaron: Uh
[00:13:53] Devon: you know, I wish, I could say that, my body doesn't force me to do it, but I, it's, my body is like, Dude, you can't do this, cause, if you don't stretch
Yeah. Huh.
If it comes down to it, if I, You know, and there's, Mostly good days, but then a couple weeks ago, there was a day where I was like, yeah.
Nope. I ain't I'm not walking anywhere today
[00:14:13] Aaron: That's tough. I'm sorry. That sucks.
[00:14:16] Devon: But it's alright, you know as long as I stay on top of it and stretch I'll be golden.
[00:14:22] Aaron: Yeah. the morning pages aspect? When does that come into the routine?
[00:14:26] Devon: right after I stretch. I'll sit down and grab the pages, write down, all the free thought, all the like, and after that I'll, write some intentions of the day, and then I'll get to the to do list, and then I'm like, alright, let's all set out in front of me and like, even in the pages, I'll visualize, the day a little bit and or the week or whatever, like dream, that to me is, is a great reflecting time that didn't discover uh, artist way till I don't know, three years ago, maybe three, four years ago. Maybe it was 2020. Actually, I think I was like, Oh, this is wow. This is amazing. But I haven't finished it. I'm still working through it. I'm like, I'm still like in my week four.
Yeah. That's
[00:15:08] Michaela: awesome. how much is your morning routine affected when you're on tour? Yeah. Mm
[00:15:16] Devon: hmm. How it is on tour. Every day is a different day. And, I've been lucky that I have team of people that just bust their ass on the road with me and they keep a really, healthy environment. And everybody knows how to communicate with each other.
If that is smooth. And that's, that to me is a number one. And then we do the best that we can to find the fight for the sleep, we're in a band a sprinter most of the time You know We had a bus for like two weeks that was actually not not as fun as we thought it would be Because we got the last bus on the lot and like it got turned away by, you know, a homie that we went to a show and we did a show with, I won't even say who it was, but she was like, Oh, we just had the worst bus experience.
And we're like, Oh no. And they're like, yeah, don't go with this company. And we're like, that's the one that we're going with and we literally got her bus that she turned away and uh, yeah, it was a leaky toilet and rocky road. It was rough, but I'll take the Sprinter over that, I'll take Sprinter in hotels any day I think that.
To me, I'd still, no matter what, I still find that hour and a half, maybe even like a couple hours really, like I try to give myself my stretch time and breakfast time, that is pretty essential for me as a human to be Not a mean person.
That's how I find my grounding.
Is, alright, I feel good physically. My stretch, I'm in my zen. And I'm fed. I have fuel, the energy for the day. so that my brain ready to react the right way to everything that's gonna be. bouncing at me and then, singing my heart and soul out that night, that's kind of the thing that you're, saving up your energy for the entire time and preparing for and, basically a trucker.
That is driving to each city with a load of instruments, a lot of instruments and a lot of other things,
Merchandise.
merchandise and like a shit ton of stuff.
Yeah. Yeah.
up and knock down every day.
and then you sing and make music on top of that for those. It's that 90
[00:17:31] Michaela: amount
[00:17:31] Devon: of time. Yeah.
minutes if you're lucky boom, shake hands and send some stuff and hopefully sell a little merch and get your ass to the hotel for some sleep,
[00:17:43] Aaron: Yeah. Rinse and repeat.
[00:17:44] Michaela: Yep. I know. It's interesting the mention of the bus, because I feel like a lot of these conversations are also recognizing what our former ideas of markers of success and how they change, and we had the milk carton kids on, and I remember, listening to an interview with them from years ago where they were like once we get on a bus, things will be a lot better.
And then when they were with us, or maybe it was when I was touring with them this, a couple of years ago, they were like in a rented SUV and they were like, don't ever get on a bus.
[00:18:17] Aaron: They were in like a Ford, yeah, they were in like a Ford expedition whatever the biggest Ford SUV was.
their merch person and their sound guy. No tour manager, all of that. Their manager would advance everything ahead of time and send them like an old school like tour book. And they just go and that was like, it was so lean. But I,
[00:18:37] Michaela: and I think that's the thing is like, you know, I still kind of have to check myself of Oh, when I was in my 20s and decided this is what I really wanted to do.
I thought by this age, I would be on a bus. I'd have all my friends in my band. I'd have nannies. I'd
[00:18:53] Devon: Yeah, right.
[00:18:54] Michaela: Now I'm like would I even want that? I don't know because that's a massive machine that you have then the pressure to keep going and you don't get to really just follow your whim of like maybe I want to take a year off or maybe I want to write a novel like there's a whole load of other things once you have that level that I feel like there's a shift of oh maybe The major record deal the tour bus, the arenas, maybe that's actually not the dream.
have any of those shifts happened for you over the years?
[00:19:27] Devon: Oh, wow. what a statement. And like question. The best question is what kind of machine do you want to build and also, it's so hard to maintain that machine, whatever machine you build, like, how are you going to maintain it and keep making music with the people that you love?
And pay everybody a wage that they can live on, and then expect them to be there for you need them and rehearsal and all, you know, it's like, where's that balance of maintaining that thing and, the dream is still there, of course, to get to a place where I'm, performing my record in big rooms and, Who knows I don't personally need to be playing giant stadiums for the rest of my life, that's a crazy machine, that is ginormous, to me, I, like, went out on the road with my morning jacket and I was like, wow, that is a fan base that has latched on from early on and then grew and grew organically in a way that Jim James those guys, they still love what they do and they still rock and that to me, I grew up loving Led Zeppelin and Jimi Hendrix and rock and roll and, tapping into that, inner child and. To me, don't care if, I'm playing in stadiums necessarily.
I just want to make enough money that I get to pay my homies enough that they can have a good time, not worry about the bills. And keep making art that kicks ass and makes people feel good and pushes dial a little bit and makes people think. And pushes the cultural dial even maybe, you know, and, realistically the only way to do that Is to make a lot of money if you wanna pay your buddies right now I'm like in that place
ha,
Right now, I'm like, oh shit, that's, okay, how do, how do you fucking do that?
Like, how do you that's the part of it that, you can't expect it Right away, like all the time. as an artist you have to be like, all right How do I scale back and how do I? scale up and I think that is something that I started out playing acoustic guitar and bars four hour sets and did that for four or five years.
Before I started even getting playing with a band. So I think that it's important to know how to do it by yourself and do it lean and mean and then when you got the gas money. in the big gas money with the big gas tank then hey maybe you can throw it in
Yeah.
a couple big ford excursions you
[00:21:54] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, something that I've, gleaned from people that I've worked with and then also conversations on here is once that machine gets a certain point. can't avoid the fact that you are running a business, right?
And so inevitably with that business, I think our assumption is that like, Oh, if you're on that level, like you're cruising and it's not that it's just as rocky, if you're selling out stadiums, if all of a sudden you like have sell out a stadium, you feel horrible. You know what I mean? Even though you're still selling, 000 tickets, and so you have to be at this spot where there's that shock absorber.
your band, your crew, everybody you're employing, their salary stays the same and they, you're the one that's covering that risk and navigating that. there's a lot of. Foundation building To be able to get to that point Yeah, because
[00:22:38] Michaela: income increases, but expenses increase, so it can feel the same in some ways as when you're, making less, but running on a leaner machine.
But yeah, like you said, of having that versatility though, of being able to go out solo that's like a huge amount of freedom. I've learned in recent years, I wanted to have my, a band and I was like, going into so much debt, taking out a band on tour every time, just losing money. And I was very like self conscious about playing solo because I'm, just a fine acoustic rhythm guitar player.
And in recent years, I've really focused on like, Oh, well, what is my strength? My strength is. singing and telling stories. So that's going to make up for any of the fact that I can't play a lead guitar part, so I'm going to do what I do. And then I have the freedom to go out on tour and play solo and bring my family instead of.
a lead guitar player or whatever. And that's designing what is best for my life. And then when I have a bigger paycheck for festivals or whatever, then I can take the band. But yeah, having that versatility, whatever it is, like you said, being able to be flexible, to do that and go.
In the way that is the most sustainable for you, I think is really important because we can easily be like, no, but I need to lose all this money to give this impression and it looks cool, now I'm stressed the fuck out because I've got so much debt.
[00:24:09] Devon: goodness lord, it's so real. And, I love that, Michaela, that, you're reshaping the way that, touring looks. conventional family, with a family, and I think that's important too, and making that feel healthier
[00:24:23] Aaron: have a lot of people that comment. Gratitude for us talking about like how this happens with a family and all that and I feel they need to just point out like this is also just a phase, this is what works right now for our family it will be different next year, just like it was different last year.
And, and that applies to people don't have a family to everything is a face, I mentioned, being into mindfulness and one way that I'm. been meditating recently is through using Sam Harris's app. Sam Harris has a podcast. I think he has a degree in like neuroscience or something, but
[00:24:49] Devon: of him, yes, definitely heard of
[00:24:51] Aaron: Yeah he's a, a heady dude, but he approaches meditation like from a scientific angle rather than Eastern.
So it's a lot about like consciousness and what is consciousness. But he was talking the other day about struggle and, uncomfortable feelings and he's like every bit of stress, every bit of anxiety, every period of anger, every period of joy that you've ever felt. has come and gone, nothing is permanent. It all transient. on both ends of the coin there's this actual Buddhist I guess it's like a Zen koan kind of thing where, an emperor or something summoned two Buddhist monks to him and he's like, I want something that makes me sad when I'm happy and something that makes me happy when I'm sad. And so they went and they sat and they meditated on it for, however long they came back and they're like, the answer is this too shall pass. And it's just thinking that if you're happy, this isn't going to last. So enjoy it. And if you're sad, this will pass. it'll be okay. Everything's transient basically is what
[00:25:43] Devon: Yeah, man. I've heard that this too shall pass. And I needed that. I
[00:25:49] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:25:50] Devon: that air.
[00:25:51] Michaela: Well,
And I think also, shifting the way that we tour because we have a family is by necessity. But I hope talking about that then helps empower other people to think about well, could I design the way that I tour to fit? What fits for me rather than I think a lot of us get into this career and like we just want to try and build a career so we'll do like whatever anybody tells us to do and then be like wait I'm exhausted or I'm like an anxious wreck or whatever it is I'm always questioning now like why do we have to do it this way?
Why do we have to do a six week straight nationwide tour? Why can't we break it up into smaller bits? how does that affect the booking agent? They're just In their office booking it a week apart rather than back to back. And I was like, why can't we like, be rethinking how to play these shows and build this career of ours based on what works for us?
[00:26:49] Devon: That is a great question. Honestly. I need to call my agent right now.
Yes!
at small, tiny little clubs. Alright? 150 cap.
[00:27:07] Aaron: Yeah, man, dude, the band is what it has been one of my favorite bands forever and like Before they were touring with Dylan and all that, you know when it was like leave on in the Hawks They split off from Ronnie Hawkins They were traveling in an station wagon, and they played seven nights in a town, and then go two hours down the street, and played seven nights in that town.
maybe the first night is a little slow, but by the end of the week, people are like, oh man, Levon and the Hawks are in town, we gotta go see them. It's like, to
[00:27:32] Devon: be said about that. Yeah.
I mean, is it too expensive to just keep your whole band in town for a week? I think maybe that's what it is, just finding a place to stay,
[00:27:41] Michaela: different towns, and driving
I don't know. I feel like maybe the concern is if you're trying to sell tickets, that you can't get people out night after night. and you're not doing like a bar gig, that's probably like a bar band type thing. I
[00:27:59] Aaron: mean, at this rate, Jason Isbell is about to announce like 50 days in a row at the Ryman.
It's Jason Isbell presents February at the Ryman
[00:28:06] Devon: I really think it's totally, you could totally do it like a three nighter in each town. that seems chill. And then you do four cities. that's it. next month or two months later, you do it again. oh man, that would
[00:28:20] Michaela: We need some inventive thinking like this. you feel comfortable talking a little bit about your journey with, your record deals of signing to Capitol and what that experience was cause that was early on, right?
[00:28:33] Devon: It was early. It was 2017 in October that I signed with Capital. I recorded my first EP in And released it in May of 2016. from there, that point, started playing out in town a bunch in Nashville. a little buzz. the first time people started paying attention, label wise, was actually through a Craigslist gig that I did.
[00:29:00] Michaela: Whoa, our heads are synchronized in that. So, Randomly. I did this Craigslist ad, this, they needed a singer, and I sang on this blues song for this guy Tim Hinkle is his name, he's this British cat who played keys on like all this Stuff for like the who the doors and like Okay, tim. Sure. Whatever man, As he's telling me all this stuff, just name dropping and i'm like cool And a year later he calls me says He after I released my AP Devin, you gotta come to House of Blues and meet t-Bone Burnett.
[00:29:35] Devon: And I'm like, huh? What? and I'll be honest, and I'm embarrassed. I actually didn't know who t-Bone Burnett was at this point.
And they looked him up and I was like, oh shit. Like, oh brother, we're out there. And Raising Sand, and I was like, Oh God, this guy's amazing.
And met him, and talked to him, and he came out to some gigs. Then, Atlantic started coming out, and then actually, Mark Abramowitz, who I was working with he was at Sony at the time, he connected me with Chris York from Capital. And he was like, Yo, what's up, Devin, we love what you're doing.
honestly, to this day I, I'm so grateful for everything that Capital did, it's, the waves, now after record, guess this is technically three, but my second original.
After that, I feel like now I'm just landing after doing the headlining tour, for LP too.
I now have a grasp of like you said, a couple of record cycles and what they look like. Cause my first album cycle was January, 2020. And the pandemic was like, so and then capital dropped me June of 2021, July of 2021, something like that.
pandemic definitely tanked all the juice that was supposed to.
[00:30:48] Aaron: Be there.
[00:30:49] Michaela: How have you emotionally grappled with that?
[00:30:53] Devon: I feel like I emotionally grappled with it very quickly because I was like, we're all here. we're all in this boat together. the only ones that are really prospering right now is Bezos and all the billionaires. And, hopefully the world sees that.
this country sees that and says there's something weird going on. You know, I was, to me, it was moment in time to pay attention to what was bigger and what was happening. it's so funny getting to this election now. not to get deep into politics or anything, but, it feels like there's a little less on the line, and we're like, we don't care as much.
then it felt like life or death, and now it feels like a little life or death, but like, we're still like, ah fuck, ah,
Yeah.
we still gotta vote for our 85 year old, you know, and like, it's important, but also I'm like, damn like, we're, still struggling.
We're still like, trying to like, figure out how to like, navigate this, everything that's happening. Anyway, sorry, I went far
No, you can
[00:31:48] Michaela: get into that
[00:31:49] Devon: ha ha ha
[00:31:51] Aaron: We're there with you. Yeah.
[00:31:52] Michaela: Because I think that's, one of the things is like that stuff affects us personally. I always think of, the personal is political, the political is personal. So this idea that we shouldn't talk about it or that it's like in some separate section is just.
Not actually how most people exist there is a percentage of the population who could probably say like, well, my life isn't as affected, but then there are a lot of us who personally feel directly, deeply impacted by what is happening in politics. Namely, if you're not a straight white man, sorry Aaron, but I know you're so good.
You're impacted by A lot of things, too. Like, That's not even true that he's not impacted just because he's a straight white guy
[00:32:35] Devon: Yeah, no.
[00:32:36] Michaela: for all of the things, yeah, and that affects our ability to create, what we create as artists, it affects, our livelihood and our career.
So it's a part of all of it. So you're welcome to talk about whatever you want.
[00:32:50] Devon: Thank you. I feel like I'm in a safe place, and you're 100 percent right. Like politics affect our lives and affects me personally for sure. And, if it's affecting us as a human and, affecting us personally, as artists.
our art is a mirror of our human existence and that hopefully bounces off of everyone else. And, so that was for sure weighing me down. that year in 2020 and, making me realize what is important as an artist, what do I say and how do I use my voice and my platform?
what is the point of being an artist in a general? If, I'm not going to. Say something or do something with the art. And, of course, you don't want to become, listen, U2's great and everything, you don't want to go full Bono on them.
a hundred percent, you know, let Bono be Bono. but sometimes you need to, I think that's important. And, woke me up in a lot of ways, for sure.
[00:33:41] Aaron: that's a really interesting thing to say. You don't want to go full Bono on them because I feel like in my judgment with a lot of what's going on in American culture these days, is it's very all or nothing on a lot of different things. It's either like, no, read every book or we're gonna ban the dictionary.
and people think like artists oh, it's like you either go full Bono or you just, shut up and sing like they told the Dixie Chicks and it's like, no, man, I think we can just be normal about it and talk about it and be like, no, this is part of our lives and this really affects me so I'm going to sing about it and this is part of my art. You don't need to make it your entire cause because I think that. there's a lot going on for everybody whether somebody wants to admit it or not, no matter where you are on the spectrum. And so I think it's just like it's self preservation to block out when it's a fire hose of whatever kind of information.
if this is just part of the conversation as it is, as it should be, I think there's a way to normalize this normalize calling out the fact that like, things aren't normal right now, we're struggling to find what the new normal is, and we're not there yet. we don't have two feet on the ground just yet.
[00:34:40] Devon: Absolutely. And I think that one way to normalize it is by making that conversation calm and empathetic and Have open ears and open hearts as you're, talking about it making it a safe place first, because I think that people are just scared that it's going to turn into, a boxing match.
And. Nobody wants to jump into a boxing match really, but it's hard because it's delicate personal things it's things that affect generations of people and, In our heart and our soul and it's religious things too with people, you know, and and that's involved in it's literally building blocks of people's existence that you're trying to wiggle and shake and go Like This is not right this block down here and then and they're like Well, I got like 20 blocks on top of that then I gotta like now I gotta like move and now I gotta figure out how to move over here And so like we have to kind of like this top block here, maybe it belongs over here.
And I think if we thought of it in that way like, the conversation could be easier, but that's a lot. You know, It's a lot to ask of everybody, and you have to have those conversations with the right people and only the important people that,
[00:35:51] Michaela: Yeah.
I think a lot about artists role and the choice to communicate values through the actual music. And, or communicating values through like platforms or whatever, they're two different things,
with your music it seems like you're progressively speaking more through your songs as well with a direct message, which is, I think challenging to do and incredible when you can because I think that is how you connect to somebody's empathy when someone can connect to music and then maybe like start paying attention to the lyrics.
But I haven't thought about this in a long time because my thesis in college was about, the 1960s social movements and how they were represented in popular music, and compared to like the 2010s and if there was any evidence of what was going on in the world in our popular and there just was not, even though the Iraq war was happening and 9 11 and, I wrote a 70 page thesis about I don't know why this was, but I still think about it in today's, world.
like your song, for instance, I'm Gonna Love You Anyway, as I was researching you, I wrote down this quote that I remembered from Nina Simone, where she said, An artist's duty, as far as I'm concerned, is to reflect the times. I think that is true of painters, sculptors, poets, musicians.
As far as I'm concerned, it's their choice, but I choose to reflect the times and situations in which I find myself. That's her mission statement as an artist. Not all of us believe that or feel comfortable or feel like we have the capability or ability to do that. Do you want to share and expand a little more on your feelings on that?
[00:37:33] Devon: I love that quote I think that Nina is a great example of someone that grew up in that era of having No choice but to fight for her rights. And it's so funny how, when you listen to music back then, and you listen to music and like you said, the 20 times you don't hear that the times.
I think that we're disconnected right now from everything, from the systemic shit that has just been happening under our nose the whole time. And, don't know when it's going to break, but all that to say, I think that, it is an artist's duty to reflect what is happening inside of himself and every artist has to Different powers.
I do believe. in some artists, they're not tapping into the times and to the culture and to what everything that's happening around them. And, that's fine. I'm not really interested in that personally. sometimes.
think the artists that are tapped into themselves that sharing their story and their their pain that they're going through, whether that's pain that is directly connected to what's happening in the world, those artists usually are the ones that are tapped into what's happening into the world.
And to me, and those are the ones that I look up to are inspired by and, so for me, do side with Nina in a way, I think that some artists Their power is tapping into an emotional place that, maybe doesn't talk about everything that's happening in the world, they sing beautiful songs and that's great.
and that makes people forget about the shit that's happening in the world. And that's, that's also a power that's beautiful. But if you We're just living in this era where silence is killing everybody. if you can't say anything at some point, what do you stand for?
I think as a human, you got to stand for something. And as a black artist, especially, I've seen how, music can be a weapon in good ways. In bad ways, but in mostly amazing ways in beautiful ways that Nina used it and the staple singers used it in so many, it's a power that can be wielded.
And, and, I think that to find the full capability of that power. Full potential that power you have to tap to the times.
[00:39:40] Michaela: hmm. Never find yourself Wishing you were seeing more artists do that?
[00:39:46] Devon: Absolutely. I get stuck in my little things that I listened to. And it's funny. I was like, listen, it's like my replay of 2023. On Apple Music and it was like this almost the same as my replay in 2022. And I was like, I was like, oh shit, I need, I need to listen to new stuff.
[00:40:05] Michaela: was it also older music? Yeah?
[00:40:07] Devon: Yeah.
it was like, it's like Radiohead and some older stuff. It's mostly like early 2000s or like, you know, shit like that or like, so I won't say that I'm fully aware of everyone saying anything and everything. But think that it's hard that we live in this world where the art that's getting rewarded right now is what's going viral and what's going viral on TikTok and hopefully people can make fighting the power go viral over and over again, you know, and maybe that's why Trump's scared of tick tock Because he knows that everybody can unite on it and erase his ass, but anyway. LAUGHS
[00:40:50] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. genuinely think people are, like, exhausted. we're both very engaged with stuff, and I feel like, more than ever, I'm like, I just can't take
[00:41:00] Devon: we fought it!
[00:41:01] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:41:02] Devon: Twice already. now we gotta fight it a third time. And our boxer is, Rocky 9 right now. You know, like, Like, like, Are you, are you sure you're good to get in the ring? Are you positive?
[00:41:19] Aaron: makes it up the stairs at the public library, but it's one of those chairs on the,
[00:41:22] Devon: monorail thing that like lifts you to the top.
[00:41:24] Aaron: It's like, ah, well you're, yeah, you're there, you're at the top, but
[00:41:28] Michaela: yeah,
[00:41:29] Devon: Good lord, like Michelle, take over, like come back.
[00:41:33] Michaela: Please. Oh my god, that would be a dream. She'll never do it,
[00:41:36] Devon: she wouldn't put her family through that again.
[00:41:39] Michaela: my favorite person. I had one last question before we wrap up. Because one of the things we also talk about on this is building our teams getting thrown into the major label arena and all that stuff your manager has been your buddy and bandmate.
[00:41:54] Devon: yes, I love that.
[00:41:55] Michaela: I've had the same manager for like 10 years and we're about the same age and like, never have I thought Oh, I could go try and get on like some major management company. And I'm curious about people who stick with. Especially when they're then faced with big opportunities that, if there's ever any pressure like, Oh, maybe you need a big time manager to handle all this stuff and what that relationship is like with you and Jonathan, if you feel comfortable
[00:42:20] Devon: talking about it.
I'm so comfortable and I love, you know, I'm, so lucky. And I'm sure you feel the same way like I met John when I was working at city winery where, trained him as a server his first day. And, And like we went up to a table. These older women, and they were, I was like, you get two servers for the price of one today.
And they're like, y'all are like Batman and Robin over here. And like, And like that, from that point on like, we were like homies. And just, he was inspiring to me. And, was running a music festival and his college town that he, started and drumming and really wasn't a manager.
He was just a homie that wanted to help me in my music career. And, he became my roommate. I moved in with him. He was like, Rents 75 a month, and I was like, in East Nashville, on Porter Road.
[00:43:06] Aaron: Wow.
[00:43:07] Michaela: That does not exist anymore.
[00:43:09] Devon: Stupid, Stupid. I was like yes, I'll be there, tomorrow. Like, The universe brought us together and John helped me produce my EP and we were meeting up with managers and we were like, This is my producer, blah, blah, blah. And then, we didn't get a manager, we met up with Jeff Colvin.
we're like, hey, you know, like, this is my, not my manager, but he's helping me with that kind of stuff right now. So like, eventually he just became my manager, but he was doing things that no managers would do, managers just aren't like, as hands on.
As he is and not in an encroaching, weird like, way in like such a supportive role and I know that no other manager could do what John does for me. we also have, I work with Paul Steele, who's at Triple Eight Management. He's, and John's at Triple Eight.
So like, we do have the company there. Like for help they're awesome. They're amazing.
[00:44:06] Michaela: John joined the bigger company, right?
[00:44:08] Devon: John joined the company like after and if I'm with John, wherever John goes, I'm with John. And, I feel very lucky. And Buster Phillips was my, the next teammate. He's my agent. And, he's been there from the beginning since 2016 too.
And, I feel like those are the, two players you need in the beginning, for like, Alright, what's the next, two chess pieces,
[00:44:29] Michaela: yeah, it's really important to have those people in place who are loyal and uh, willing to go through all the ups and downs with you, rather
[00:44:40] Devon: Yup,
[00:44:41] Michaela: the situations of like, well, this isn't working out right now, so. I'm moving on, which we all know happens a lot in this business. Yeah,
[00:44:49] Aaron: finding people that can endure what is perceived as a failure in the moment.
[00:44:54] Devon: yeah.
[00:44:55] Aaron: You know what I mean? Because, we say it a lot on here, but to me, what defines something as a failure is your response to it. if capital had, called you and John and been like, man, we're done. We're cutting ties. And you guys are like, Bummer. And you never, you hung everything up and never made another record again?
Like, That'd be a failure. You know, But you responded to it and love you anyways. Fucking killer record. You made a great record. you hit the road. You got to determine that maybe a bus isn't the best thing,
[00:45:18] Michaela: or at least right now for
[00:45:20] Devon: now,
[00:45:21] Aaron: you
[00:45:21] Devon: for now, right?
[00:45:22] Aaron: But you know you guys like Responded to it, together you and John and Buster and it's like that's cool we were talking earlier about how Michaela's kind of carved out what works for her right now And it seems like you have carved out what works for you,
[00:45:35] Devon: still figured it out over here
[00:45:37] Aaron: Every
[00:45:37] Michaela: day. And not, and knowing, I think one of the biggest things in this career is knowing that things that seem like an ending or that are objectively an ending of something doesn't mean the end. It just means that's a disappointing end to this thing and I will keep going. for sure have been like, Is it over for me because this person didn't work out and it's like no, it's not
[00:46:03] Devon: Like, oh shit, what's going on? and it's could be a good thing.
It's the beginning of something new. It's the next chapter. It's, it's the rebirth it's something that needs to die. you need to grow. And it's a good thing.
[00:46:23] Michaela: The biggest thing to remember, and that's why I love these conversations and my friends that are all in this career path. Anytime I get scared, I'm like remember when they parted ways with their label or manager or agent or lost this tour or whatever it was and how devastated they were. And then remember what came next, this even better thing or this beautiful period of growth or whatever it is, so keeping that in mind, I think is the key. Oh.
[00:46:51] Aaron: GG.
[00:46:52] Michaela: We're at the end.
[00:46:53] Devon: Hey, gg
[00:46:54] Michaela: Devon says, hi.
[00:46:56] Aaron: Yeah. Speaking of endings, I think we're, this is one thing that does need to end, but, you know, we, we, uh, we keep looking at the screen above us because we have a whole bunch of other things we want to talk to you about.
So we'll have to have another one of these conversations, whether it's recorded or not, I got a lot more questions I want to
[00:47:12] Devon: Let's do it let's have a drink and do it. Let's
[00:47:15] Michaela: Perfect. Thank you so much for taking your time and giving it to us today, for an hour.
[00:47:20] Devon: Thank you for having me and thank you for, giving me this free therapy session.
Yeah.
it.
[00:47:25] Aaron: Oh we'll send the invoice. Don't worry about it. We'll send
[00:47:28] Devon: it to John. Yeah.
Yes. Yes.
[00:47:31] Michaela: Thank you,
[00:47:32] Aaron: bye
[00:47:33] Devon: Take it easy, y'all.