Drew Holcomb has released over a dozen records since 2005, independently as well as through Dualtone Records and with Thirty Tigers, on top of popular performances and records with his wife, songwriter Ellie Holcomb, he has toured and written with John Hiatt, Los Lobos, Susan Tedeschi, Avett Brothers, Lori McKenna, Natalie Hemby and others, and he started a subscription record store called Magnolia Record Club which he sold to Dualtone in 2018. We talk to Drew about expensive mistakes both he and Michaela have learned through the years, balancing scheduled creative time and spontaneously chasing the muse, while being gentle with yourself when life gets in the way of it working out, getting clear answers (yes OR no), decision points, considering the audience in the creative process, and a whole lot more.
Drew Holcomb has released over a dozen records since 2005, independently as well as through Dualtone Records and with Thirty Tigers, on top of popular performances and records with his wife, songwriter Ellie Holcomb, he has toured and written with John Hiatt, Los Lobos, Susan Tedeschi, Avett Brothers, Lori McKenna, Natalie Hemby and others, and he started a subscription record store called Magnolia Record Club which he sold to Dualtone in 2018. We talk to Drew about expensive mistakes both he and Michaela have learned through the years, balancing scheduled creative time and spontaneously chasing the muse, while being gentle with yourself when life gets in the way of it working out, getting clear answers (yes OR no), decision points, considering the audience in the creative process, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 112, and this week we're featuring our conversation with Drew Holcomb.
Aaron: Drew Holcomb is a singer and songwriter originally from Memphis that now calls Nashville home.
He tours and releases records that are his band drew Holcomb and the Neighbors.
Michaela: And he just released a duets record with his wife, who is also a singer songwriter named Ellie Holcomb.
Aaron: drew started releasing solo records back in 2005 releasing a handful of records independently before signing with dual tone records and releasing one record with them until the president the late Paul Roper. Approached Drew and said, you know, your team and your management have the capacity to release records on your own, [00:01:00] so we're happy to release your records, but like you could kind of do this on your own, which is an amazing thing for a record company president to say.
So with that, drew took that advice and. Went back to being independent, releasing with his team under Magnolia Records. And it wasn't until 2011 that he had really a single that resonated with people on the national scale. And as he said, that's what started his career.
Michaela: Yeah. And since then he has continued to release, I think almost over a dozen records.
He has started the Magnolia Record Club, which we didn't even get to talk about, but is a really awesome, human Curated record club. It feels like old fashioned. I remember like Columbia House. Yeah.
Aaron: I wanna pay 99 cents to get 12 records.
Michaela: Yeah, I remember. Look, we did that when I was a kid. I remember looking through the CDs and being so excited.
But Drew has also toured with Susan Esky, Los Lobos, Ava Brothers, John Hyatt many more, as well as written songs with Lori McKenna, Natalie Hebe, Zach Williams from the Lone Bellow.
Aaron: Drew's a really grounded, real person, and you kind of hear that throughout this conversation as we touch on things like chasing [00:02:00] the song rather than chasing the business.
He says, that that's something that he wish he knew earlier on in his career. really was really that big song in 2011 that he released that kind of taught him about that. you know, One thing I really love is he says. That he loves getting a solid answer. Whether that's yes or no from his publicist or his agent.
I just wanna know. I don't wanna hear like, I'm working on this. If the person has just said it's not a good fit tell me no and let's move on.
Michaela: We also talk about learning that big names in this business don't necessarily equal big returns. I feel like this conversation also highlights some of my biggest learning lessons.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. From, that stuff. So if you listen to these conversations, like people watch NASCAR where you are just waiting for the crash, this conversation definitely has some moments of like. that was an expensive learning lesson. From both McKayla and Drew.
But as always, there are some topics in this conversation that come as direct suggestions from our Patreon community, and that's because they get advanced notice of our guests. They can ask questions, they can [00:03:00] give areas that they would like us to touch on. Um. It's also the only way to directly support the production of our show.
So if that sounds interesting to you, there is a link below in the show notes,
Michaela: and if you're a visual person, this and all of our past conversations are available on YouTube. So without further ado, here is our conversation with Drew Holcomb.
So we usually just like to start with a really general question of how are you today and where are you in your creative path?
Drew: well you're
Michaela: Good.
Drew: at a strange time 'cause I'm sort of on the downhill of the flu.
Michaela: Yeah.
Drew: I've had uh, three days of basically sitting around wishing I could be working, but not having the energy to, and I finally woke up this morning feeling a little better. So, That's exactly where I'm at today.
yeah, as far as where I'm in the creative cycle, I mean we, Ellie and I, my wife, we just did a duets record, which is a first for us even though we've been married for almost 20 years. She's an artist as well. And that was an incredibly fulfilling. Experience. It was a record that was written in a very [00:04:00] short timeframe. Basically a matter of like three weeks. We wrote
Michaela: Hmm.
Drew: and then recorded them in a similar fashion, sort of over the course of just a week. Tracked live in a studio, Nashville sounded podium. And then we did about 35 shows, which we still have three or four of those left. Since then kind of in between the recording and the touring I've been just doing a little bit of spot writing.
I'm writing with some younger artists sometimes for them, sometimes for myself. we wrote a song for a TV show called House of David that was kind of fun to write and record, but I'm in a bit of a sort of gathering phase. That's kind of how I, write is. Listening to a lot of music getting newspapers and collecting words and phrases and just gathering all the tools for writing a record.
Typically the way I, end up, I start writing, and then once I have three or four songs that I'm really confident are gonna make a record. Then I'll put, two weeks in the studio on the calendar six months from now, and then force myself to write the rest of the record sort of in the, in between time.
Michaela: Ooh.
Drew: I'm not quite to that spot yet. Also put out three records in three years. So [00:05:00] I'm kind of enjoying a little bit of uh, of breath space from, writing and recording.
Aaron: Yeah. I love that idea of just putting dates in the calendar and holding your foot to the flame. You know, I heard somebody say it, it was in regards to like, running races or something like that. But, the saying like, sign up first, you know, 'cause like getting started is the hardest thing.
So it's like, sign up and then, you kinda have to figure out how to make it happen.
Drew: you know, everybody's different. Some people don't enjoy that kind of pressure. I do.
I don't write every day. I don't even really write every week. So, It's good for me to put a goal. On the calendar, so it sort of forces the issue,
Aaron: Yeah, I noticed for me, like when I have a deadline like that, it almost allows me to see the work that I'm doing and what I'm creating, like in a more objective light. It's like. is this good? You know, am I, Am I just attached to like the feeling that I had while I was writing this and making this? Or does this actually stand up?
You know, There's no time to just be like, oh, I'll just sit with it and massage it and you know, it's like, no, really? Is this gonna work? Or is this for the next one?
Drew: Yeah, and it's interesting, I don't know if you guys feel this way, but I'd say [00:06:00] 85% of my work is done sort of in the, frame of a full
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Drew: I've definitely had some one-off recordings and, couple of those a year. But primarily I, write and then record a proper record I can look back at my career and I don't wanna name names of the songs necessarily, but I look back at every single record and there's always a song that looking back on, I'm like, you know what?
That one probably should not have made the
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah,
Aaron: for sure.
Michaela: I, I feel like I'm very album centric I like hearing when writers say, you know, I don't write every day because I feel like, especially moving to Nashville, if you're like dipping your toes ever in the publishing world, they have that whole like, you should be writing every day.
And I just have not found that. Is natural to me and also is not suitable to my life. Especially when you're juggling other aspects of music like touring and recording.
Aaron: I love the conversations of hearing people's natural pace who also have managed to still build a career on it. 'cause our [00:07:00] first daughter was born, I didn't write a song for like two years. And now it's been, I just wrote a song last week, And that I actually like, but it had been a year. Before that, and I've learned to like, accept that. But I'd love to hear more about how much you like, are able to let life lead your pacing and how much is, sometimes driven by man, I need to get a new record out.
Drew: that's a great question. I don't, necessarily know that. I, intentionally about it in a way that like, oh man, I've gotta make a record. But there's definitely comes a time for me where I, look and I go, I. Okay. It's been quite a while I have this job and I have this mortgage, and I have these kids, and I need to make another record, and so, That said, I also, find myself finding like a balance between intentionally putting time on the schedule, to create and write. But then also allowing myself when the muse hits to, start writing. I mean, my latest song that I've been working on is So I, this is silly, but you'll appreciate it. I love old cars and I'm on this email [00:08:00] list called Bring a Trailer and it's like a auction site for cars
I've never bought anything on there, but I have a 71 Bronco, so I'm sort of in the vintage car world and this. email came to me from them. Cormick McCarthy's nineties Ferrari was for sale
Aaron: Hmm. like, Cormick, McCarthy's Black Ferrari. That's a song.
Yeah. Yeah.
Drew: my so I'm sitting there on the couch, like check email in the middle of a It was Sunday morning, so no, it was Saturday. ' we were late for a soccer game because I started writing the song. So,
Michaela: Classic.
Drew: I got the guitar off the wall and started coming up with this idea and my son was watching on Saturday morning cartoons. And so in the background of my voice memo, can hear my son talking about, Hey dad, did you see the dinosaur? Or whatever. And
Michaela: Yeah.
Drew: that's great buddy.
And then back to my little melody, and so I still feel responsible to. Sort of Chase down those moments.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Drew: typically what happens is I get something started, then I have to push pause, and then I go back when I have time blocked and finish it. I feel like there's still a lot of spontaneity in the collecting of [00:09:00] ideas, the collecting of words, phrases, rhythmic ideas. then the actual, what I've found since post kids, my oldest is 12, so this is now basically. All I remember is having to put, intentional, creative time on the calendar. But then I think having a little bit of a loose hand with my expectations of that time. So if I sit down to write and I'm just not in a space, or I'm exhausted or I'm frustrated about some other thing, or there's some external thing happening that's kind of ruining the energy of, creativity.
Drew: I kind of have mercy on myself. You know what, today's not the day, but I'm gonna put another block on the schedule within the next few days to try to, resurrect that time. So for me, it's a mixture of both. But the longest time I went without writing was the beginning of COVID.
I didn't write for like eight or nine months, which for me is a really long time.
Michaela: Yeah.
Drew: I think part of it was I, I love writing for the audience. Like I'm.
Massively disagree with Rick Rubin about his whole take on uh, never consider the audience, I disagree with that completely. So when I didn't have an audience at all, or it kind of took the wind outta my sails,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Drew: [00:10:00] eventually I got over it.
Michaela: I'm curious. I wish I could like ask Rick Rubin to expand on that because also coming from, he's a producer, but he's not a live performer even
Drew: musician really,
Michaela: Yeah. But it is such a relationship that I think there can be this idea of. A sense of purity if you're not thinking about the audience.
That I think is a bit naive. I don't know. You could frame it like having more ego or less ego to not be considering the audience when you're writing. But I think even if you're writing from a place that's a really personal place and trying to convey a story that you really want to write, you can still be thinking of your audience, especially if you have an audience that you know, and depending on, what type of artist you are. You, probably have gotten to know who your audience is in a lot of ways. So I like that. I feel like we haven't ever talked about that somehow on this podcast.
The relationship of like, thinking about the audience when we're writing, not [00:11:00] necessarily like, okay, I'm gonna write something that I, think that they're gonna like, but can you maybe expand a little more on like how you think of them when you're writing?
Drew: Sure. I think maybe sometimes it could be confused about maybe he's talking about, when he says don't think about the audience, don't think about the commercial response, that's
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Drew: he means, then I'm certainly in agreement with him. Considering the reality that. listeners, music consumers, fans, whatever, however you wanna sort of frame the word audience. Are people with stories. These are people with heartbreaks and triumphs and all the spectrum between joy and tragedy in their own complex lives.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Drew: for whatever reason, has this sort of. magical ability to connect people to themselves and to each other. to me the, beauty of music is that it sort of reveals to ourselves about our own lives, about our own pain, about our own joy, and so. I think I need to write in [00:12:00] such a way that I treat that audience member, that person listening with a, a little bit of respect,
sort of disdain or, disdain at worst or a apathy at, least I think either one of those sort of postures is a miss because. Your audience is going to listen to this and tell their own story, whatever it may be. That said, if you also sort of spoonfeed them and tell them exactly how to feel exactly how to respond, I think that's a bit lazy as well. So I'm always trying to figure out, especially as, put together a whole record, I wanna make sure that I'm considering. The sort of rollercoaster of emotions that life really is. And if I'm only gonna put a record out every 18 to 30 months I want to take people on a journey. I want 'em to joy and excitement and get in the car and drive. And I also want them to sort of get inside their. Feelings alone and dig into their, stories and their past their dreams. You know, Dreams realized, dreams not realized. the only reason I have this job is because I have an audience.
So think it would be disrespectful not to sort of honor that.
Aaron: Yeah, [00:13:00] absolutely. I hear you saying like, kinda what I feel is having and holding respect for the audience. understanding that they're there you are with them. we went to jazz school in New York City and I came up like deep and I thought for a while I wanted to be a jazz drum and all of that.
And then getting into like, downtown New York. Jazz scene is very intellectual, and I would argue with anybody that, those artists being incredibly prolific musicians and really gifted and really talented, they very quickly forgot about their audience in a sense. And the music that they made was so technical and so complex.
It was kind of like reading alike. Some really in depth medical journal where like you needed a eight year degree to understand what you were looking at. Which maybe that is the audience that they were writing for. But it, can very quickly lose your audience to me that then it loses the impact, we had Roseanne cash on here and she paraphrase Bob Dylan on, people go to a performance, not to feel the artist's emotions, but to feel their own emotions.
Drew: Yeah. And [00:14:00] I think for a lot of people. Music's role in their life is it's basically like they're finding an expression a way into their emotions that they don't necessarily have themselves they don't know how to play an instrument write a song or sing, but they, take on and the mythology of the music to their own stories and their own lives. And that's, why music connects and has this incredible relationship to human beings is because everybody, whether they can do it or not, they can sort of see themselves in the music or feel themselves in the music.
that's a great quote. I mean that's definitely been true for me as a fan. You know, It's what led me to music in the first place. So. I hope that's true with people experience what I make.
Aaron: Yeah, I mean, I think we can go down a total armchair psychology analysis of the whole thing. It's like, well, isn't any relationship that you hold in life really just your own reaction to your own feelings?
Drew: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: know? It's like, I like this person because I feel really. Comfortable around them.
I feel welcome. I feel open.
Michaela: Yeah. Nobody's a silo. Like it's all in reflection and relationship to each [00:15:00] other. The people that we interact with, the people that we love, like how we come up and feel about ourselves. I think about this a lot, having a second child, and it was such a debate of are we gonna have a second kid?
Because it's hard to be a touring musician and have children at all. But I think about that how your sense of self is determined by who is around you. And I grew up with, a brother and Aaron is an only child. And so much of my identity was also informed by what I was or wasn't like in comparison to my brother.
And not necessarily negative in any way, but I just, none of us are in a vacuum, so it's in every aspect of our life. It's all. Interconnected.
Drew: Yeah, absolutely.
Michaela: can you talk a little bit about, so am I correct in my understanding that you put out some records with dual tone and then started your own label and have been putting out records on your own label since then?
Many, Many records since then.
Drew: Yeah. Well Actually the first two records I put out were on my own [00:16:00] as well, and then I
Michaela: Okay.
Drew: record with dual tone and then, around that same time I started working with my current manager and he and his wife, who also is a manager with the same company, had put out a lot of great records on their own folks like green River Ordinance and Ben Rector and,
so Paul Roper at dual tone, who we all miss what an amazing guy.
He basically pulled me aside and he is like, look. We can do another record with you if you want to. He said, but your team is, well poised to do this without us if you're willing to take the risk. And so that was a nice blessing to get from him. And that's basically what we've done.
I mean, did records on my own. I did one record as a distribution deal with 30 Tigers and, but yeah, we've basically done it ourselves and, it started out when I was young as a necessity because none of the labels would sign me
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Drew: sort of square peg in a round
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Drew: But I had an audience, so I knew that I wanted to put music out. But it's been a really, great thing for me within the sort of genre space that I'm in, which is somewhere between kind of AAA and Americana folk pop kind [00:17:00] of and, it's also been very scary at times because now at a point where when I really record a record because of previous success, I'm not really getting any deals anymore
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Drew: you know, the team involved.
Relatively speaking. So, And radio campaigns and publicity and videos, they're expensive. And so sometimes every time I put out a record, I'm making a, hundred thousand dollars, $200,000 bet on, on
Michaela: Yep.
Drew: And that's a big swing.
Michaela: Yep.
Drew: and now with, the way streaming works, the money comes in, but it comes in way long over a long period of time.
And so thankfully our touring helps that we've been lucky to be successful on that front. And sync has been good, for us as well. Yeah, we've been able to stay independent and grateful for that. I know that's not everybody's story and, that sort of nerve capacity.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Drew: and there's some great labels out there that, do a good job. Dual tone being one of them. But that's, been our journey.
Aaron: we've had quite a few conversations on here about how moving to independence affects your creativity in the, writing and the making of the [00:18:00] records. you've released so many records with your team kind of independently.
Can you talk about how the changing landscape has. changed, like your guys' creativity in the way that you market the records and put out the records, like how you spend on videos, how you spend on, do do you spend on a publicist? Do you, you know, like, obviously we know you spend on a publicist 'cause that's how we are sitting here.
But I'd love to hear about like since it is such a business that you run on this, like how has your creativity around that business changed with the changing landscape of income and
Drew: Yeah.
Aaron: of all of that?
Drew: Yeah, I can kind of look back at the different decision points mainly about how to release music. So I've been at it now for 20 years. So when I started out it was still only basically CDs,
and then there was a lot of fear around iTunes, devaluing, oh, people aren't gonna spend $12 on a record any CD anymore.
They're gonna pay a dollar for the song. And then. Obviously that worked out really well for artists for a minute, and then when streaming came along, same thing. Everybody's holding their albums back from streaming.
[00:19:00] and then obviously streaming sort of worked out well for those of us who own our own records.
If you're able to build an audience some scale over a long period of time. But the cash flows on those differences were very, interesting and different and caused for consternation. I mean, it's, It's interesting. I was reading through like, what do I do with the other 22 hours?
I mean, I spend a good bit of 'em, four or five hours a day running this business, looking at budgets for shows and. Talking through set list and talking with my insurance guy about are we covered for this festival that we just got booked for? And bus quotes and, I'm not doing any of that alone.
I've got a tour manager and I've got a manager back home who helps. And um, you know, the publicist thing is a, great story for me because I was, younger is around a record called Good Light, which would've been which was my first record that really connected on a broad national level.
Part of it was because of sync and part of it was just touring we were out with need to breathe for the first sort of big national support look that we got. but I had seen all these peers of mine, which a lot of [00:20:00] us do. We like, we look around and it's really hard not to compare yourself, right?
Especially when you're young
Michaela: Mm-hmm. confident in who you are yet. And they were all using one of these two or three big publicity firms. And I was like, very much determined that that was what, we were missing was we didn't have one of these big ticket publicists getting us on late night TV or getting us on these, whatever, all these different things. So we got signed up with one. They took us reluctantly and gave us their newest, most green person,
Drew: it was costing us like $3,500 a month. uh, it was a six month minimum and like a month in this young publicist was like telling us about all the things she was working on and getting us.
And of it was real. It was all. Smoking mirrors. And I went to New York to meet with her and it's the first time I met her in person. I'd only met her on the phone immediately knew, man, I should have come up here and met with her first. 'cause I knew this was was a mistake.
meanwhile, a friend of mine had started working with Sue, who I've been now with for almost 12 years, I think. And not as big of [00:21:00] a name in the Americana space at the time. but we literally, it It was a 20,000 mistake,
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Really hard lesson to learn that it's much better to have someone who actually loves and cares about your music and is willing to go to the mat for it than to have a brand associated with it just because you think that that brand, can get things done just 'cause of the name on the, the flagpole.
Drew: And that's been my, lesson in general is way less about. The name of the firms you work with or the radio company you work with, or even the booking agency that you have or the whatever. If you have any of that, it's more about having somebody
in that position that believes in your music and believes in you and is willing to fight for you. for instance, with Sue, what she's like what's important to you? And I said well, I'd love to get these things, but more than that, I'd love to get a clear yes or no. I can handle a no.
If you pitch it to somebody and they say, this is not for us, tell me that you're working on it.
Just
Michaela: Yep. Mm-hmm.
Drew: Want it,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Drew: you go, okay, got it.
Drew: Same thing with radio, same thing with talking to other managers about, man, I'd [00:22:00] really love to go on tour with so-and-so, and they're like, yep, we pitch it to 'em, they're not interested. Great.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Drew: move
Michaela: Yep.
Drew: that. You know? And I. It's hard as a creative when you experience rejection 'cause it feels like a soul rejection less than just a, don't like my product. It's like, no, they don't like me. They don't love my
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Drew: So it's easy to get wrapped up and the disappointment of that. But it's also, I think, teaches you some lessons about not putting all of your sort of value in the commercial response to your music. I could give any younger folks advice, I would just tell them cherish the notes you get from people about how a song touched them. And throw away the commercial rejections
Michaela: from your brain.
Drew: Although it's hard when you have bills to pay, but at the same time, that's the kind of the mental health survival path,
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah, that's, why we have this podcast because. we've been in this business for 15 plus years now. and all of our friends, our community are all musicians and we've, seen enough of [00:23:00] ups and downs. People have their big year, their down year, and just how important it is to continually hear even our favorite musicians also have been rejected and.
Still here. No. And because I think it's, so crazy, especially with social media. Your mind can play tricks on you that you're just like, even though I logically know it, I still will have days where I'm like, this is only hard for me. And I'm like,
Drew: Yeah.
Michaela: I am, yeah. I am rejected by the entire world.
Like it sounds so silly, but those are the type of thoughts that can come into our, mind and I think in that, thank you for sharing all that because I feel like that is such a constant reminder. We need as well as dispelling the myth that getting the stamp of approval from the big firm, the big agent, whatever, actually isn't the key.
Like sometimes yes, but I've learned that lesson I had, the owner of a. Very reputable, big agency take me on and [00:24:00] Blow smoke up my ass and tell me how great I was and I'm the next Patty Griffin, all this stuff. And then I got pregnant and all of a sudden he wouldn't talk to me.
So, you know, like Had big firms like all of that stuff and have learned that lesson over and over again of oh, that's not the key. The key is the person I'm working with, do they actually wanna know who I am as an artist and do they feel passionate about. Specifically my thing and understand it enough to convey it to the people that they need to be pitching Or am I just one more name that they're taking in and will eventually become an inconvenience
Aaron: you have these big agencies that have such a history of getting artists things and some of your favorite artists have been represented by them. And you say they get this and this and this, and it's this double-edged sword of you know, when you talk to them, they're really good at selling things, you know, so they can sell you on what they can get you, which is.
Okay, great. This publicist is great at selling things or agency, whatever it is. But at the same time, you know, I think it's finding somebody that is smaller, somebody that [00:25:00] is thinking creatively as you are thinking about making your music. How creatively can we get this out there and how can we be agile?
And in my experience, I've never released my own record. On a level that would need a publicist or anything. It's all always been in reaction to getting a placement or something like that. But what I've observed in other people is, when they go with some of these bigger agencies that have a history and I don't mean to this to come off as like me completely poo-pooing large agencies.
I guess like what you're looking for in my judgment is somebody that, doesn't have blinders on, on like, this is what works. This is what we do. This is the form. 'cause it's never going to be that, you know, I want somebody that's like, this has worked before, but maybe it doesn't work now let's try something new.
Let's keep throwing paint at the wall and keep finding out. Which brings me to like, I loved hearing you say you want a definitive answer. Because like in a way, a no is a yes. ' cause like when you're trying to find something that works. If you have a definitive no, you're like, great, that means all of this other stuff.
I don't have to worry about that.
Segment. have to chase this anymore 'cause I know it's not a part of the program.
right. You know, every [00:26:00] record sounds different. Every approach is different. That is not the avenue for this one. Let's try here. And, you know, you keep doing that over and over that, like, what's gonna work? That horizon is gonna get smaller until you're like, yes, here, this is the people that this resonates with.
These are the outlets that this resonates with.
Drew: Yeah. And some of that's like, you know, there's, there's always been for me, I've had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder. For a wide variety of reasons about sort of my place in the industry and great memory that I have sort of, eliminate that is we were playing on Kemo, which is a really cool songwriter cruise,
and we were like, you know, middle of the bill and this very successful Nashville songwriter. More of a songwriter than an artist happened to be on the boat, sort of as a special guest. she came to one of our shows Afterwards was like, you guys are so awesome. I would love to come see y'all play when y'all play like the basement or third and Lindsay where's your next show in Nashville? like, it's actually in three weeks of the rying and it's been sold out for three months. So. I don't have any more tickets, but, and she was like, wait, what? [00:27:00] You guys play the Ryman? And I was like, yeah. Yep. I'm not, not trying to like, she wasn't trying to offend me or
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Right.
Drew: But I just, she didn't know who we were.
And we've always had a lot more fans than we have had press,
You'd certainly rather have that than the opposite. 'cause I've had friends who have had all the
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Drew: that can't sell tickets. you'd prefer to have both.
Michaela: Yes. You know,
Drew: So you just, you just sometimes have to laugh and go, you know, I guess, I'd rather be in a position that I'm in, but sometimes it's a little awkward when, moments like that happen and you just kind of go, well just keep carrying on.
Michaela: Well, it's such a balance of ego and also like actually having a, career that can sustain and feed your family? I think about that all the time because I'm gonna be real honest. I'm the opposite of like, I've been reviewed in the New York Times two times I've been featured in the New York Times, multiple times. my resume of [00:28:00] press is pretty incredible. Other than late night tv I would definitely be playing the OG basement. And I've really value my career and what I have and I am able to sustain a livelihood, but at the end of the day.
the press is just a, ego stroke. in today's world, it doesn't always translate. I have multiple friends who, Can sell out Red Rocks and sell out the Ryman and have never been written up to the degree that I have. And I'm like, I'd like a little more of that.
Drew: Yeah. Like Can we do a little
Michaela: Can we you
Yeah, yeah. Meet in the middle of
Aaron: both of these. Yeah.
Michaela: Because also like a New York Times review or NPR or whatever, like it makes you feel good it's like a sugar high. You're like, woo. Yeah.
Drew: for it. Yeah.
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: We had somebody related to the difference between like orange soda and fresh squeeze orange juice.
You know, You get like this, writeup in the New York Times and it's like you know, this Orange Crush is delicious, but you know, right. song. The song, the actual scene is like, we love this record, and then you sell out the Ryman and you're like, this is orange [00:29:00] juice. This is sustaining this.
You know, Because to me like that shows that your music is resonating with people. 'cause what's happening is people are sharing the record with their friends. Here, listen to this, listen to this, check this out. Or conversely like, man, I caught their show last year at the Ryman and it was incredible.
We need to go again. And they bring, you know, one people turns into three. Three people turn into 12.
Michaela: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah, that's true. the interesting thing though, is probably, if you look at sort of a broad historical. Picture of music and money making the history of the world. There's probably never been more musicians per capita making a living than there are now.
in the sense that if you want to make a living as a musician, it's probably easier now than before. Now it's not easy to make a killing but social media and, digital technology have lowered the costs and raised the access. I met a guy the other day that I didn't even know he'd made music.
Uh, He's a piano player in a, like obsession guy. And he and his wife make music for sync. And I looked at his Spotify and I was like, oh my gosh. He's like, yeah, we've never done a show, had like four or five really [00:30:00] big sinks in these songs, and one song's got a hundred million plays on Spotify.
Michaela: Wow.
Drew: like, That's a
Michaela: Yeah.
Drew: if you own that song. And it's not a uh, a known entity. It has neither press nor fans, but it
Michaela: Yeah.
Drew: of streams. '
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Drew: connected with people on this. Massive, commercial platform. it's interesting 'cause there's, a lot of ways to do it. There's not a way, there's not a path. everybody's got their own path and I think that's cool.
Michaela: And taking away judgment I think of like, okay, I'm selling tickets, but. People don't know my name when I walk down the street, but obviously some people know your name 'cause they're buying tickets, but within the like, clout of the industry I think these conversations are so helpful to remember.
my gosh. Well,
Drew: That we all have our work,
Michaela: yes.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Drew: we all have our path that we feel is what we're supposed to be doing. the older I get, the less comparison. Plays a role and certainly the less it should play a role.
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Drew: and even in terms of how we create and what we do with our time.
And some people like Bear's a [00:31:00] great example. Bear Reinhardt. I mean, When he's not on the road, he loves to write every day.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. ' cause anybody's telling him to, it's just what he likes to do.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Drew: Rather go. you know, throw the baseball with my like, we all have different ways that sort of spur and give us the life that we want. And so the worst thing we can do is to look at somebody else's life and that's what my life should look like.
I don't know. You kinda, you're gonna get lost if you try that path.
Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. I always try to relate it to like. if you judge a squirrel on how well it's a deer, it's gonna look horrible, but if you try to watch a deer climb a tree it's not gonna be great. So you gotta kind of,
Drew: reel, you know?
Michaela: I also, because you know, we've also been together 18 years, so I hear this metaphor from him, but like the animals change every time, so. it should be an Instagram account of different animals.
Drew: the same metaphor but different. Yeah.
Michaela: Yeah. Busted. But what, oh, I remember what I was gonna say though, of like, how there are so many different paths. It's also a good reminder of. Betting on yourself and [00:32:00] having the long view of building your own life of why, you know, not chasing the big firms or chasing the record deals that might not be for everybody because there's so much value in also owning your own work.
feel like this conversation is going into like all of the ways that I've messed up in my career so far. Like I don't own any of my records and I just got out of my record deal with, YepRock, which was a, great little label run by wonderful people.
Drew: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: I was like, man, and honestly having kids changed it for me that I was like, am I gonna go through this life and not own any of the work that I made?
Yes, I like, I wrote those songs, but like I. Put my blood, sweat and tears the recording of those records. And we made my most recent record that I haven't put out yet in this studio that Aaron built with his dad designed and built himself and he produced it. And For a small amount of money. I can't let somebody else own that for the rest of my life.
Drew: Yeah.
Michaela: You gotta figure out what, [00:33:00] feels good for you and also know the consequences of that might mean that I'm not invited to certain industry parties and circles. And what is of more value to you essentially.
Drew: Yeah, absolutely.
Aaron: well, we know you're getting over the flu, so we don't wanna totally co-op all your energy for the day. But we'd love to kind of wrap up our conversations with basically one of two questions. Choose your own adventure being either something that somebody has told you along the way that like, kind of resonates with you.
Still is kind of always in the back of your head. Or conversely, like something you would tell younger you that was just getting started building this career on your art.
Drew: Well, I can answer the questions with the same answer because it's something that was told to me that I now
Drew: tell
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Drew: artists. And it was that the right song can do most of the work for itself and for your career, wish that I had spent more time in my twenties writing and chasing songs and less time chasing opportunities within the industry
cause that's what happened [00:34:00] with me, basically, I spent seven years chasing and and it wasn't going very well.
And I finally put out a song that connected with an audience on a very broad. Level. And what, was beautiful about the song was it was a song I had basically spent like three or four years chasing commercial success in my songwriting and it wasn't working. And then one night I got very sort of emotionally, of overrun by, my nieces and nephews were leaving the country with my, brother-in-law and my sister to move outta the country for a few years. I just got really sad about it and I wrote, sat down and wrote a song for them and no thought for anything other than just like, I wanna sing this song to them and tell 'em how much I care about him. And then recorded the song and it sort of went. Popular and viral in every direction that was available to itself at that time. This since
Michaela: Mm.
Drew: So, and that song gave me a career. yeah, I think it's focusing on the work and being true to yourself and continuing to write songs, and write songs, and write songs, and write songs and work on the songs. That's where the, thing will happen. You know, You can't [00:35:00] force a career. It's gotta be because the music connects with, people. And that to me only comes if the songs you're writing connect with yourself,
At least that's my perspective. are other people that are, have done very well, probably taking a different route, but that's what for me and. I still sort of, every time I write a song, I think through that. Like, Let the song do the work,
Aaron: I love the awareness of like, that's what worked for me. You know? That's the beauty of how we've been able to have 111 of these conversations is that you know when people that we've noticed that have had careers as long as yours, understand like, this is what works for me, but there are a thousand different.
Outlets like you said a few times through here, like leaning into yours, leaning into what is your story of what works for you, what works for your audience and your community that you create around your music.
Michaela: Well, and ties back to the earlier conversation of that song came from a place where you were thinking about your own feelings, but you were thinking about the very specific audience for that song of that it was for.
Certain people in your life which I love those stories, because it makes me feel like there is a, groundedness [00:36:00] in love and human connection that then translates to building a life that financially sustainable. All that stuff is really nice. And not feeding the idea of you have to be so, maneuvering and, focused on the business aspect.
Drew: Yeah. I think so too.
Aaron: Yeah. Well, Drew, thanks for taking an hour outta your morning to, sit with us and chat and
Drew: Yeah, y'all too. It's been a pleasure.
Aaron: Yeah. Cool.
Drew: y'all.
Aaron: All right, you take care.
Have a great day.
Drew: You too. See you later.