Eliot Bronson has released 6+ records over the past 12 years, both independently and via labels - with a handful produced by Dave Cobb - and he has also won numerous acclaimed songwriting competitions such as Kerrville and Chris Austin contest at Merlefest. Ditching the traditional label/publicist/manager route, Eliot has established a vibrant path that is 100% DIY, community-focused, and as he explains - more fulfilling than ever. We talk at length about that process and how he found himself there, debate the necessity of a whole label or publicity team, explore the idea of the artist in the center of the crowd versus up high and removed on stage, mindfulness practices, and more.
Eliot Bronson has released 6+ records over the past 12 years, both independently and via labels - with a handful produced by Dave Cobb - and he has also won numerous acclaimed songwriting competitions such as Kerrville and Chris Austin contest at Merlefest. Ditching the traditional label/publicist/manager route, Eliot has established a vibrant path that is 100% DIY, community-focused, and as he explains - more fulfilling than ever. We talk at length about that process and how he found himself there, debate the necessity of a whole label or publicity team, explore the idea of the artist in the center of the crowd versus up high and removed on stage, mindfulness practices, and more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, and we are in the second year of this podcast. So happy to still be here and happy that you're out there listening.
[00:00:20] Aaron: A few quick things before we jump into today's episode.
Not a lot of people understand that podcast streaming pays exactly 0. It doesn't matter what platform. It doesn't matter how many downloads you have. The only way to make money from a podcast is either to get sponsorships or to sell ads, which we don't want to do because We don't want to sell you a mattress and we don't want to interrupt the conversations.
so we've turned to Patreon and over there we've started a community. For one price, you get everything that we offer currently, everything that we add in the future. And that is communities and behind the scenes things, advanced notice of our guests so that you can ask questions and have them answered directly.
we have a whole bunch of things in the works that aren't rolled out yet, but for the cost of a coffee a month, you can jump in on that. Or if you want to go really deep, there are a few slots left for individual one on one coaching with Michaela or I check it out the link below in the show notes, if that interests you.
A quicker way to help would be to just subscribe on whatever you're listening or watching on at the moment. And then finally, to just share your favorite episode with somebody that doesn't know what we do. We're out here to provide great insights and tools from our community for our community.
[00:01:30] Michaela: And the best way to grow that community is just word of mouth one to one. And one of the things we really pride ourselves on this podcast is that we are musicians ourselves. We're not journalists. So we think these conversations go a little differently than your typical music interview. This is more of a conversation like friends sitting around a table, swapping really honest, vulnerable stories about the reality of building a lifelong career around your art.
[00:01:55] Aaron: Which is a crazy thing to do because most of it is outside of our control and we spend a healthy portion of this episode talking about what is not in our control and focusing on what is right around us. And that happens to be mindsets and routines and our creativity. generally, we've boiled that down to the question.
What do you do to create sustainability in your life? So you can sustain your creativity. And I think we did a pretty good job of nailing that question today in our conversation with Elliott Bronson.
[00:02:25] Michaela: Yeah, Elliott Bronson Is a singer songwriter from Atlanta. He has been working as a musician for At least a couple of decades, maybe he's put out a half dozen records, has run the gamut with having big time producer, Dave Cobb, record deals, management deals, and currently feels like he's in a much healthier, better place learning how to I guess I would say more of a DIY approach and we talk a lot in this episode about learning what's really nourishing and good for us and sustainable and how to meet your needs as a musician and.
What might just kind of be smoke and mirrors that we're trained to think is
[00:03:07] Aaron: the goal. Absolutely. We spend some time talking about Buddhism and mindfulness and meditation, which you know, I absolutely love. Elliot uses a great analogy of shifting the focus from like, here's a musician up on a stage way above the audience that's way down there and being an artist in the middle of a circle and creating community around that intentionally and unintentionally.
a fun moment, after talking for an hour and playing multiple festivals together, Michaela draws the connection in her research That maybe her and Elliot were in the songwriting competition at Merlefest together, to which Elliot is like, yeah, I know, Mikayla, and I wasn't going to say anything.
Because he beat me, but he thought I was really upset about it, and I forgot, so.it's a really humorous thing and also tie that into the whole world of songwriting contests and how that is for your creativity, both positively and not. wall to wall, solidly enjoyable conversation.
so with that, here's our conversation with Elliot Bronson.
[00:04:08] Eliot: Thanks for having me I am excited to be your least famous guest
[00:04:11] Michaela: Not true And
[00:04:14] Aaron: also we can
[00:04:17] Michaela: dig into that on this conversation cause I mean that's definitely something that we like to talk about ofwe've met other times but we got to hang out a bit at 30A and dig into that
fame I mean
[00:04:28] Aaron: you know
if you go going byfame some of our air quotes most famous guests we had Glenn Phillips who's the lead singer for Toga Rock It And he's likeI'm in Santa Barbara and I can't afford to buy a house I'm renting a house I can't buy a house We had Mary Chapin Carpenter on and she's like 10 years ago I had a manager that wouldn't respond to me for a year So you know this post like like eight times I think 15 Grammy nominations at that point and her manager is just ignoring her that's why we're here is to kind of just take aneedle and poke that bubble of
[00:04:57] Michaela: I feel like it's such a common idea of fame and money doesn't fix problems or make people feel better So a lot times we see ways that it makes people feel worse But I feel like I've always had the mindset of like yeah yeah Well maybe it wouldn't for
[00:05:13] Aaron: me
[00:05:14] Eliot: Right
[00:05:15] Michaela: Let's try it first but I think the point of one of the many points of theseconversations is really learning Like there's pros and cons to everything and fame or massive amounts of recognition might not equal What feels successful for each of us or what feels like a good life
to jump in right there you had these bigger moments famous producer record deals lived in Nashville and have carved out your own path that you share a lot on social media about learning that's not all it's cracked up to be Sometimes it's actually likepretty abusive and toxic and Now make your living full time playing a lot of house shows and live streams nurturing your own fan base but maybe not getting big billing on you know all the major festivals And so if you want to just jump in on that of what your journey's kind of been
[00:06:08] Eliot: Sure Yeah Well there's so many places I go with that I guess but in general the biggest shift for me was the pandemic I think things hit the fan for all of us we had to figure out a way and because like I don't have any other marketable skills like I don't have degree in anything like this is all I've ever done and I've been scraping by forever and I Did it for the longest time by like teaching on the side Before that I was working in restaurants like so many people do you know you can't really do those things as easily during a lockdown So I started doing these live streams and that really just this community sort of arose around it and I wasn't expecting it but I also like reallypoured myself into it in a way that was just necessity I needed to pay the bills What was I going to do So I just found myself making art again drawing again you know um selling my art and also likedoing things where likebiggest contributor will get my latest drawing of the artist I'm covering this week or just all these ways I was justdoing things outside of the box and they were working And I don't know why I never thought to do any of those things before I just figured you just have to likeget the manager and you get the agent and you get the label and then they do it for you
I wasn't using all these parts of my creativity and personality at all And then when I had to use them they started working really well And then all of a sudden I was like paying down my debt then those people after things started opening up were like would you come and play a show for us at our house And it's like sure I could do that And then it just felt like I could go directly to the people who appreciate what I do without all these gatekeepers and middlemen taking chunks of it away and not only you know was it more effective like I wasactually making more money doing it but not like I wasn't getting the attention likethe articles written about me like the way I might have wanted but then some of that did happen too Like some of those things did find their way in there so that's the gist of it It was this redirection from trying to do this top down thing to like a bottom upbecause there was no other way I didn't just dream this up but then it turned out to be just a much more effective route
[00:08:01] Aaron: love stories like that and I love the experience of that in the moment when all of your other options are stripped away you're like Oh this sucks I want literally anything but what is happening right now But at least in my experience it sounds like in your experience what that allows you to create and try can be really cool it can turn into something that's really amazing that probably wouldn't have come about if there wasn't this point of inflection that Sucked
Yeah
[00:08:24] Eliot: Yeah it definitely wouldn't have it could have come about another way but it would have taken some other big upheaval in my life necessarily have to be like a global pandemic but I needed to be shaken out of the way I thought I had to do it this is the way that we Achieve success in the music business And as you were saying earlier and as I've come to understand through listening to your podcast and meeting lots of people that A lot of it's a smokescreen It's actually success And it's like this idea that if we can make someone look like they're successful then we can sort of milk that and make off of that But the artist still doesn't get that money Like it's
totally
[00:08:59] Aaron: a wacky weird funhouse mirrors type of game going on Yeah absolutely
And that's all like on a psychological level for the audience the consumer civilians however you want to call it the people out there that actually spend the money on our tickets or our records and all of that that quintessential stereotype of like the artist that is famous And in the same sense it's like the American dream you know where it's like Oh I could be that too And I can have that And so you need to create this illusion of grandeur all I do is just travel around freely and sing my songs
So just
come to me and I never work
[00:09:33] Eliot: Exactly
[00:09:34] Aaron: Whatever his name is dumbass owner Spotify yesterday was like oh it's like free to make music
[00:09:39] Michaela: Content great Costs next to nothing to make I feel like if you've been in this business long enough I was thinking about this last night because you know I do a lot of songwriting coaching and creative coaching and a big part of that is constantly people talking about the negative voice in their head being like Who do you think you are that you could do this always wanting affirmation and attention from people And I'm like everybody wants this Even people who are getting a lot of it want more because it's insatiable So how to combat that And I was like one thing that helps me is to remember that nobody listens to music purely We're all listening to music with so many Contexts what does this person look like What do I know about them What room am I in Is this live Is it a recording Am I distracted Am I hungry all of that stuff informs how we experience a song And for any of us who've been in this long enough we've seen people trying to you know get their career going and playing the same songs that nobody's paying attention to in the bar And a year later they've gotten a record deal and some manufactured buzz And all of a sudden the same people that were ignoring them are now so into it because there's that effect all to say that like we have to kind of always keep that stuff into perspective and know that some of its luck and that's not to dig on people who've experienced that manufactured buzz I've seen that like really work and artists be able to sustain that and get like the jumping off point And I've also seen where it's just a flash in the pan And you're like Whoa their careers are blowing up And then two years later you're like what happened to them What are they doing how have you learned to kind of reconcile that need for and desire for attention and validation in the ways that we're trained to think is of value press and being nominated in Americana Awards or whatever andJeremy Ivey said it which feels a little bit different writing a song feels like biting into a good orange and like getting attention or like a good review for the song feels like drinking orange soda that difference of what's truly nourishing and good for you and what feels like a sugar high
how do you train yourself know what do I actually want to value
[00:11:56] Eliot: Those are great questions and a great observation and I love the way that he put that because it is true like when you make a connection with an audience or a person in the audience or a song really goes over or even in the writing the song for yourself when you're the audience all those things feel really nourishing there's no hangover with it You know it's just
good
the other stuff you're talking about it does have a hang like you know you read that article and then but where's the next one Or what about that one little dig Or there's all these little ways we can find It isn't that real connection It's a little bit of an artificial connection and it doesn't mean those things don't have their place but you find that if your energy is going towards getting those things all the time I think it has a detrimental effect on doing the healthy stuff on the creativity on the connection the real connection the real writing all those things You can get sidetracked You can go down a back alley looking for these things and just lose focus with the things that are most important So I think it's fine to youuse those tools or to seek them out in some cases you know hire your publicist whatever But it's all about balance If you start getting out of balance where that becomes the thing you're after I think that should be like a little bit of a red flag it's harder when you're in that really hungry phase you know when you're just like you just want to break through somehow like can somebody give me a chance then all those things seem really big and important And one of the things that's been great about actually getting to a sustainable place in my career where maybe I'm Not getting those awards or those articles written all the time but like my bills are being paid and I'm out of debt and like I have a house so I don't feel so desperate to like Oh please somebody throw me a crumb from on high
so that's one of the ways that I think that's changed my perspective on it And simply getting older and being around that long enough to like how many times have you had that hangover where you go okay I'm gonna stop I don't need another shot Or whatever it might be 'cause you know that's coming
[00:13:43] Michaela: Yeah Pure exhaustion from experiencing something over and over is like actually a pretty helpful way to move through and evolve
[00:13:52] Aaron: Yeah
[00:13:53] Michaela: Just like
[00:13:54] Aaron: I mean
again you're being forced to make a change
[00:13:56] Michaela: Yeah
[00:13:57] Aaron: Yeah Your body knows too When you're focusing on those external things so much it's like this lurching forward It's like your posture It's you can feel it in your physical form whereas when you're doing those types of connection that are real and genuine you're breathing deeper you're more relaxed and if you're tuned into your body in any way like it will tell you I thinkYeah absolutely I feel that too I feel quintessentially like lighter feel like a weight off my shoulders It of like equated to like taking off a backpack full of bricks You'reYeah I can do this This nice you know And it's also for me when you're like reaching for those things and those rushes and those sugar highs like you're looking out at the horizon And so you're missing all of this stuff that is right here in front of you It's right inside your circle of influence You can grab it you can touch it you very easily overlook what you do have and what is right here What you know which isthe actual things that you can plant seeds in ground that's right around
[00:14:51] Eliot: Yeah Yeah We definitely that's a really good point too that we'vefocus a lot of energy on the things that we really have no control over Or we have little control over there's a lot of things right in our sphere of influence that we could do every day and make our art better
[00:15:05] Michaela: Well I Think what you said about what's helped you shift through it of one part being essentially having your basic needs met Not drowning in debt feeling like you can live sustainable life because I think younger me would justify because I've always had a tricky relationship with wanting fame I've never actually been comfortable with that And always kind of had this weird don't look at me
[00:15:31] Aaron: I don't want
[00:15:32] Michaela: attention except for when I'm on stage And it's clear that I'm meant to have
attention
[00:15:36] Aaron: Right now But like
[00:15:37] Michaela: if I'm in a room anyways so I used to justify it of like Oh but I want these things because I want the access to an audience to make a good living to have better offers from festivals to actually like have a good life of home and whatever So I think there's also an element of these conversations of likeHow do we create an ecosystem where people are getting their basic needs met cause there's the counter argument of well that's just the way this industry is And until you have the audience I find that really difficult when like major festivals that are They're charging a ton of money for entry and probably paying their headliners a ton But then there's a long list of people on the roster performing that aren't getting provided housing and are getting paid 500 And we're all convinced I have to do this This is my big moment and I'm validated and my name's on the poster and this is a big thing Oh but the mental distress of Losing money and not having a place to sleep and like all of that stuff feels very counter to me of like How do you support an artist community if that's what you're offering
[00:16:44] Eliot: Yeah I don't know that we can assume that the industry is going to become a healthy industry ever I think likesafer to assume that it's not and that we're going to have to figure out our own way And when we can work with the industry in ways that are healthy and help further your career in the ways that are goodyou know when you're going to lose money traveling and it's not going to be worth your time And we need to be able to say no to those things and find other ways to connect with our fans and to build our fan base And the greatthing is I think that those tools do exist because of a necessity I was able to find some and they're not always as sexy you know it's what's sexy is like you know not being broke
I mean it's like
Yeah
you know and I and the other thing is like earlier in my career like I got some things that came to me and I thought this is the thing that like I'm in I'm in this publication or I'm working with this producer I'm in this label and this is the thing And then like those things just pass I'm in the same place I was before you know and I have a friend of mine say to me one time like after like one of this cycle had gone where I had got all this press I went from getting zero press and then one year I got like dozens and dozens of articles because I had like a really good you know Publicist and a really you know a good sounding record and all that stuff at the end of that cycle like I was in no better position than I was when it started And a friend of mine was like I was watching all that happen and I thought whoa I guess LA is famous now
[00:18:02] Aaron: and I was just doing the same thing you know in fact probably digging a deeper hole Because I thought this is all going to turn into my life changing I won't say that those things didn't have any impact stepping stones to other things but by themselves no
That bubble started to burst for me even prior to the pandemic being here and knowing more people that were on the job Journalist side on the publication side writing these things and learning that these magazines that have now predominantly moved online they basically Put print magazines as like a collector's item at this but they write these articles and they put them out and they're relying on the artist and the artists fans to bring readership and the artists is relying on the publication to bring fans And it's just like this endless circle of illusion from both people expecting that somebody else is going to bring them something and everybody's searching and it's like there's no foundation for anything for anybody
[00:19:01] Eliot: it used to be that there were less places to go So people sought them out And if you got a good review in one of these places That meant you were going to reach new people But now it's just like you said it's the opposite they want you to bring people to them But is that the opposite of publicity
[00:19:16] Aaron: Are you paying the publicist to convince these publications that you can bring them readers
[00:19:21] Eliot: don't want to just crap on everyevery journalist There are great out there Even my last record like I reachedout to some people personally and was like would you like to write about this And a few did that can happen But it's just in one of these album cycles I remember getting some great reviews in some outlets that hadn't either never heard of or only heard of by my friends being in the same ones And I was
just like
does this ecosystem just exist to perpetuate itself is this just the way that publicists can get paid and then the outlet can get paid or does it actually serve a purpose which is supposed to be introducing people to new music But is anybody looking at this other than the other artists who are getting jealous of each other
Yeah the other end of it is like I see I'll just use teams Get pull quotes from articles But more and more these articles are essentially just the press release that the publicist set So essentially it's like you're writing what you want the publication to write so that way you can grab it and then put it on your poster So you're like somebody please put this on your website so I can put it on my website yeah
I pretend I didn't say it about myself
[00:20:24] Aaron: yeah Well
[00:20:25] Michaela: I do think a shift is happening because I thinkthe impact has dramatically changed 20 years ago getting on late night was a career changer Today it is not I know so many people who've been on CBS Saturday Morning or even Kimmel Yeah Kimmel and it's doesn't move the needle I sometimes will look at this stuff and be like oh okay they were on does it move their Spotify numbers No So who's watching it so I think then letting it catch up to us being like all right our old ways are not working do we need to spend the bulk of our album campaign money on a publicist a very expensive publicist to get these things that we Think look good and we'll lookgood on social media
or should we be hiring likea social media person who's going to make a million TikTok videos for us it's changing so fast and these are conversations I'm having I don't think the old way works anymore So what you said of getting creative and letting your personality come through and being like what will light me up to like try versus thinking I got to have a manager a booking agent a label hire a radio promoter and a publicist and get six figures in the hole and hope that maybe I'll sell 10 more tickets the next time I hit all those markets and go on a six week tour and rack up 10 more grand in debt That's honestly the reality for most people
And I don't think it works anymore
[00:21:57] Eliot: it's not a sustainable model anymore I totally agree with you I was thinking about this morning the way it used to be that there were only like a few channels literally television or radio There was only a few places to go and so the gatekeepers are really powerful And if you were managed to be one of that tiny few lucky people who broke through there'd be a huge reward for you because everybody's watching these two or three things There's nowhere else to go Now there's a bazillion places to go Only people going to the mainstream places are people who really probably haven't honed their taste So when you talk about like late night television you know instead of that you could be watching something very specific to what you like versus this just Here's something for everybody Likeinstead of trying to go broad like that our best chance is going very narrow because everybody now can broadcast themselves freely to the whole world if you try to broadcast yourself freely to the whole world and try to be like I'm just another Big Mac But you have so many less people paying attention to you That's not gonna work But if you broadcast yourself to the world in the weird idiosyncratic ways that you are you Then you won't necessarily make a million fans but you might make a thousand superfans and that's all you need
Yes
[00:23:06] Aaron: Mhm
[00:23:07] Eliot: to use these tools It's just it looks really different that's what's been dawning on me and dawning on other artists I speak to as well but I don't think that's dawned on the consumer in general there's still this hangover from the last century in our minds that everybody who Is good at music is a superstar or should be or they're a hobbyist and you know should quit I could be in my forties and be like why aren't you famous You know like when you just need to get discovered it's like I think that that you know that's not really what's going to happen here
[00:23:37] Aaron: Yeah the whole thing from that thing you do you know where Tom Hanks walks in and he's like you're going to be famous that doesn't happen to anybody anymore
[00:23:43] Eliot: Yeah And I think but understanding that as hard as it is to create a living it is possible There's this whole other ecosystem that it is possible to not have a massive social media following even massive streaming numbers and still carve out a livelihood that can sustain you and provide you a home and food And it might not be super glamorous you get to do what you're doing And for the people who do love you
[00:24:15] Michaela: they don't love you any less because you're not I mean there are people who tune into my livestream instead of watching whatever the heck is on TV that night That's the thing they want to do is to watch me You know it's not a lot of them but it's enough of them for me And I would be letting them down to act as if what I'm doing isn't important To them it's
[00:24:31] Eliot: important
why should I have the attitude that like oh I'm just making this music for 10 people Like they don't want to hear that
[00:24:39] Aaron: Yeah That's such an important point no matter what like these people are making it a choice to be there it is very important They could be doing a thousand other things
[00:24:48] Eliot: And so could we right So we start by honoring our own art and saying This really matters to me I've dedicated my life to it I care about it I'm not going to compromise on it and make it into something generic just because I think that would be more popular
I'm going to take it seriously that way And I'm going to show up for my audience whatever size it might be And I think if you do that consistently and you do it sincerely I do think that your audience will grow and you'll see it I've seen it with other people And I don't think that that means you can't reach a bigger audience or that it won't develop into something else but you just can't put all your eggs in that basket That can't be the whole point of what you're doing anymore I don't think if it ever could be
[00:25:26] Aaron: you kind of made this shift live streams more niche in a way because of the pandemic I would assume that at least for a while and the full assumption please correct me if I'm wrong for a whileThat felt temporary and it was like okay know when things open I will get back to X When did that shift for you
[00:25:45] Eliot: Yeah wellthere was another shift I want to talk about that happened before that shift something happened in the first year or so of the pandemic I started a Wednesday night live stream and I did it every 8 p m Eastern time I didn't miss a week and I ended up doing it for 165 weeks consecutively the beginning it wasevery single other person I was just I gotta make some money How do we do thisput my payment links up there And people were very generous and I've talkedto a lot of artists people were very generous right out of the gate because I think they understood that this is a hard time and then I quickly realized I can't keep doing the same show every week cause that's going to get boring and they're not going to keep showing up So I started theming my weeks and doing other kinds of weird little games and stuff to keep it interesting for them and also for myself sometime in that first year after six months of doing it I started noticing that the people who were showing up each week were connecting with each other as well as methey were talking to each other about their families and likehow their health who's graduating or who's sick I realized it was like agenuine community I mean a virtual community but like agenuine community that was the first shift that happened wasThere's something special happening weird here that wasn't at all on my agenda I was never trying to be the hub of a community I was just trying to make my art and get recognized for making my artAnd then it turned out that I was actually creating a space for people And that felt like a really worthwhile thing to do and that was one of the reasons why I kept doing it And then after doing it all that time you know Istarted going back on the road and I would take my live stream gear on the road on my off nights I would still live stream I was trying to do both it got to be a lot then I went and did a European tour and I was like I just can't take this gear to Europe and broadcast in the middle of the night
Yeah
[00:27:23] Aaron: Right Like it just
[00:27:24] Eliot: I finally said I'm gonna hang it up And so I hung it up and started touring and I was doing alright but after six months of not doing it I've missed the connection to my people I missed the routine of it and the steady gig And so I started going back to it at the end of last year And I'm not in it with the same fervor Like I'm not doing all the things I was doing but now I just see it as one piece Of a whole bunch of things I do to sustain myself so I still have Patreon going it's waned a bit I still do my live streams I still tour but now it all seems to be part and parcel of a sustainable career and a lot of it is just keeping in touch regularly with my community that I have built making sure that we are in contact and I know a lot of them now when they send me a contribution like I always send everybody a thank you note and now they write me back I read their emails line between fan and friend is definitely blurred I think that's part of the change in attitudes artist up here and the fan down here
Mhm now it's more like the artist in the middle of a circle or on the same level
[00:28:27] Aaron: I love that image of an artist it
just
feels pure to me
[00:28:30] Michaela: part of the reason that I love these conversations is because I need a constant reality check I've said this before on here that it's always interesting doing these conversations with Aaron because we're a couple and we live together and maybe right before we come on here I'm like having a meltdown about something and he's like about to go on the podcast and probably say really wise stuff but where is that right now and that and this kind of stuff that seems like not as sexy you know Oh your fans are your friends And likethat's like the world that I feel like I'm most comfortable in and it's retraining myself to be like maybe you aren't built for the bigger thing because I want to talk to everybody about our life story andI went and played a festival and Aaron told me that he was explaining to our almost three year old daughter like the concept of a fan that there are people out there who like mommy's music when it was like put in that context I could be focused on Oh I didn't sell as much merch as I hoped or didn't get a support to where I wanted And then when he was telling me that I was like Whoa that is a weird thing to think about and really never try to take for granted that there's even five strangers out there who are like deeply intimate with Elliot Bronson songs feel they're so important To them good reality checks and reminders
[00:30:00] Eliot: I think it's a really good point And I think that we're cut from the same cloth in the sense that like I guess there are people out there I suppose I don't know how to crawl inside their mind but that are just like yes everybody should be a fan of me You know I think maybe there are people like that I think a lot of us artists it still surprises me when people buy my records or come to my shows or tune in for my live streams it's not like I don't put tons of work and care into them and believe in them but it's still just it's easy to find an excuse put a little asterisk next to your name Like I imagine like you're talking about the people in the festivals who don't get paid but the headliners like you know the small print names I always imagine like but there's an asterisk next to mine but he doesn't belong here
[00:30:38] Aaron: Yeah
[00:30:40] Eliot: Here's how he got in through this side door
[00:30:42] Aaron: Mm hmm
[00:30:45] Eliot: good that happens There must be some other explanation other than somebody just loves it and cares about it But do to remind ourselves that that is the case Otherwise you be able to do it you wouldn't have been able to make the records you've made You wouldn't have been able to Make the career you've made the podcasts you make I wouldn't have been able to make the records that I've made or tour or pay my bills with it these things wouldn't be possible And it's really easier to see with other people It's harder to just see with yourself
[00:31:06] Michaela: For sure Yeah And like the long term superfans not taking that for granted
[00:31:11] Eliot: in my observation the main focus from teams from labels from all that is like growing the audience spent really gone deep on learning about business in a traditional business sense the last few years and in a lot of industries there's a lot of weight put on Average client value and that's the value of a one single client over time And so it's like yes you can grow your clients You can get more and more clients and scale up that way but you can also take the clients the customers the fans whatever you want to label them Bring them in more draw them in more So over time you get more from them that's almost an easier way to grow because they're already fans they already like what you do They're already like in your circle
[00:31:51] Aaron: you've seemingly started to tap into that of Oh look at all that's right here Like how can I give these people more value How can I give more And there'sa whole spring of things that you can find there
[00:32:02] Eliot: I wrote something like that somewhere recently where I just said instead ofI do threads now not X or whatever but whatever I write is really just for me because it's just I need need to know this like I know I need to hear it and somehow if I know that you're reading it I'll read it I think I wrote something along the lines of instead of trying to find more fans just invest in the fans you have people who literally send me a contribution for my livestream every week there people who will send me 20 a week every week for years
I'm making fractions of pennies on Spotify right But how many Spotify streams would I have to get that one person's investment in me And so again you don't need a lot of people You just find the right people but it does require think to find those super fans you're not going to trick them You gotta really connect with them and meet them by genuinely engaging And that means making risky vulnerable work that you care about first and then offering it second and then being grateful third and then following up and doing it again that's the only process I've seen so far that has yielded any real results in my career
Yeah
[00:33:05] Michaela: What other things do you have in your life because I would imagine also and correct me if I'm wrong through all these shifts that you've had has there been any like other emotions that you've had to let go of former ideals or dreams to be able to shift to a different place any grief or disappointment or anger of different things that have happened in your life that you've had to work through What have you found in your life outside of music that's been helpful
[00:33:32] Eliot: Great question I'm a meditator I meditate every every morning almost every morning
[00:33:38] Aaron: Mhm
[00:33:38] Eliot: Occasions when I miss it I've done a deep dive into Buddhism I discovered it in high school and I devoured everything I could find I read about Tibetan Buddhism Zen Buddhism and I grew up actually in a Pentecostal background So I have a Mixture of religious influences but think that there was some good in that in the sense that itmade me ask a lot of deep questions but some of it obviously did not stick so anyway I found Buddhism and then read all these things and I did a few retreats and I meditated here and there but I wasn't really doing it And if you read anything they'll tell you the reading of it isn't really the thing it's the practicing of it So actually when I was going through the toughest time in my career with label management producer stuff that got really nasty and I was at the same time in a relationship that was falling apart and I was really kind of at the bottom I had nowhere to go and that's when I finally started meditating every day one day I was just like I got no other direction to go in but here so I just sat there I think this is very helpful if anyone wants to start a meditation Practice is to get a timer as un Buddhist as that sounds It's very helpful to have a little window I'm going to be here for five minutes or I'm going to be here for 15 minutes And so I started doing that and pretty quickly I had a pretty interesting experience that changed my relationship with meditation And after that experience I could do it regularly Before that I had to fight myself to get onto the cushion if I was going to do it And still have those mornings if I'm being honest it's much easier now almost as if there was a room in my house that I didn't know existed And once I found it I could go back but everything was falling apart Nothing was going to go the way I thought it was supposed to go And it was just a huge surrender I think that may have been the thing that opened that up for me Anyway that's become a touchstone for me That's become a place where I need to visit this part of me that is not intellectual that is not an idea of myself that doesn't exist in concepts It's my being This raw experience of just being I need to go to that place on a daily basis and touch in with it so that I can rest there when the whole world is just shit which quite often but just having that touchstone even for a few minutes even for a few seconds sometimes can be enough to sort of be like okay this sucks but I'm all right
I've been a long time meditator as
Oh very Again to varying extents and I'm currently on a streak of the last probably eight months almost almost every day but yeah same thing I was around 18 or so that I was like Oh what's this And read everything that I
Yeah
[00:36:06] Aaron: have
done different things but it's the same thing And I would Echo your sentiment on getting a timer and But what that allowed me to do was all these subliminal thoughts of like Oh what am I doing next What am I doing next What about this that constant highway that's running through my subconscious all the time by putting a timer It allowed me to turn that off comfort to turn that off I'm not gonna like disappear and just be in this Complete air quotes slacker state I give myself permission to just sit here for 10 minutes and put all that baggage down and just again get in touch with my being that is here all of the time and
set in that And it's a touchstone for me as well
[00:36:39] Eliot: and it was a game changer for me in my career Ithink that was also a big shift
To get more in touch with the immediacy of life instead of these fantasies that we carry around all the time they're not necessarily intrinsically bad we're going to have hopes and dreams things like that but just to recognize that that's not happening There's a temporary idea and it might be useful here or there in the meantime like you spoke about earlier there's all this stuff happening that I can work with richness to life that we can mine and take care of
[00:37:08] Aaron: Yeah absolutely I've brought it up a bunch of times on this show But I've been really into Sam Harris the last few years and his viewpoint on Meditation and he comes more from like a scientific end than really like an Buddhist And I'm not sure if you're familiar with
I know he is yeah Yeah so basically his whole approach is What is consciousness and tapping into
what consciousness
is consciousness is like this state and everything else shows up in it you know and it can be like the Buddhist thought of leaves floating down a stream or whatever it might be He talks a lot about kind of just like dropping in immediately not you know doing kind of a warm up to a meditation just like arriving and being there right when you sit down And that allows me to touch that throughout the day know if I'm going to open a door or something standing up changing position and understanding that this state of being of consciousness that I get to when I meditate is there all the time And so all of these stresses or anxieties or fears or whatever They're showing up in consciousness and they're going to go away and just like little accents on this screen that's there
[00:38:11] Eliot: Exactly Yeah that's right you just touched it but that metaphor of the movie and the screen like the movie's always playing but we are the screen we are this awareness that's always here behind it And another sort of analogous comment I don't know if you've ever read Suzuki Roshi Zen Mind Beginner's Mind a very famous book and he talks about this concept of always being a beginner and when you start out something you like you pick up a guitar you have no idea what it is it could be anything It could be a drum you know you could play it any number of ways And just looking at the world that way of not understanding it leaves all these possibilities open and puts you in the moment And he says in that book just to bring it back to our talk he says the beginner's mind is also the secret of the arts So I think that there is a real powerful connection here between presence and creativity I think That's where the wellspring exists When I'm in my loops of craziness that is not when I get my best material
[00:39:01] Aaron: Yeah and to tie it into what we were talking about here with the pandemic or needing an inflection point to like really shift things It's we all fall into that put those blinders on It's like I need a label I need a manager I need a publicist I need this and this and this and they're going to do this this and this And that's how I'm going to work And all of a sudden you sit and you're like Oh none of that's an option Okay what is here And you have you're forced to approach it with the beginner's mind of like nothing and take
those binders
off and look at what can happen
[00:39:27] Eliot: Absolutely I just realized the other day that younger version of me not only did I think I needed to have all those things but like I was almost embarrassed if I didn't have them Like I
people take me
seriously I would pretend I had a manager or like I've pretended to be my manager you know all those things which you know that has its place just from a practical standpoint one of the great things about getting to a healthier more balanced place it's I'm not embarrassed LikeI don't have a manager at the moment the last one I had we kind of parted ways during the pandemic And if the right person came along and could help that'd be great but I'm not paying somebody 20 percent if they're not bringing 20 percent more value I'm not at all ashamed to not have a manager right now I'm doing fine the people in the past that I was like begging for me to manage you know please manage me Like and I didn't have anything to manage we maybe shouldn't trust all those people I definitely shouldn't have trusted some of them
it's an interesting shift in perspective It's like when you feel confident and healthy and you know you're making good work and you're connecting with real people these things also don't seem as important I don't need to try to convince somebody that if I had a manager I'd be a better artist It wouldn't make me a better artist
[00:40:30] Michaela: Yeah I think they're all seen as like stamps of approval Again it's all like the gatekeeping of Oh if you have a manager or a radio promoter or whatever then the next person that you're trying to get something from will think that you're validated they're probably inundated with lots of inquiries So that's how you can filter through rather than listening to everybody Well I trust this promoter or manager so blah blah blah But on an emotional side it is really damaging to
[00:40:59] Aaron: think
[00:41:00] Michaela: oh I have to find theseother people to take a piece of my pie And hopefully they will bring more value and a bigger pie
that somehow is going to make me feel like I'm more worthy of an
[00:41:11] Eliot: Yes Yeah That is key right there are we making responsible business decisions or are we trying to feel more valid Find me an artist who didn't start out because needed to heal something broken in themselves I mean especially the good ones
I talk about this all the time so anybody who listens every week might be sick of it you know my story of my booking agent started ignoring me as soon as I told him I was pregnant through my all my processing of it I've really realized I gave him so much power because I felt so affirmed by the fact that he wanted to work with me because he books literally my specific heroes And so I was like well if he thinks I'm as good to give me his time as he's giving to Patty Griffin and Emmylou Harris then I'm on the level He told me so And then when he decided I wasn't worth his time that must mean that I suck there's been so many layers of this that I recently was like wait nothing changed about me My art didn't
[00:42:11] Michaela: changeThe only thing that changed is That I was pregnant so that validation that I was so strongly getting from him and then lost in that process and therefore let it ruin my self esteem and feel embarrassed to tell people like I don't have a booking agent it's so fucked
[00:42:30] Eliot: Totally
it's one personYeah No I totally And I've had not that experience I wouldn't say a similar experience cause I haven't been pregnant but I've had people do something to me like that where and they just disappear and then you and you want to evaluate yourself And I'm so glad that part of that story continued with you creating this podcast and reaching out to people and telling these stories because I think it's so
Mm hmm And it's interesting that when we heal ourselves we help heal other people
[00:42:54] Michaela: and it's so common
I have so many friends who are incredibly talented and have been destroyed by some lawyer who's the head of a label who's just told them that they weren't good enough Just one person And we give a lot of power because when we want something and we think that these people have the key or the ability to help us and it's a dangerous thing and it takes so much personal and emotional work to continually be like wait where do I gain my worth Where do I gain my self esteem and value as an artist Not from the people With salaries and paid time off
Absolutely not to get on a rant but I continually I'm just likethis industry is so backwards it's built all on artists who have no safety no insurance no paid time off no salaries And it's all on top of people who have corporate jobs
I was thinking about it that I worked at a record label that job was so easy That was not hard I went to my office I did what I was told and then I clocked out and got to have fun at concerts likeprocessed invoices Sent out posters like that was not hard That was probably the easiest job I've ever had
[00:44:14] Eliot: Yeahwe have to wear all the hats even when we have people even when I've had agents and things like that I was still booking shows and giving them percentages of it and then we have to take on all the risk if it doesn't work out just weren't good enough and they can just move on to the next Cause there's always going to be an endless line of people Who want to do it Because I mean you know making art is wonderful An idea of having in making the arts lots of people take that chance but very few will get to a healthy place in it
Unfortunately
[00:44:43] Michaela: Yeah and I think really learning that it's really just up to us and nobody on the outside helping us to get to that healthy place
[00:44:50] Eliot: when the industry stuff was happening for me and I was going around doing all this press stuff and I look back on some of those videos of myself and I just wasn't in my own skin even you know I had this idea that I was supposed to be a thing and I was supposed to be cool
hmm Yeah and and and nobody really wants it
Nobody really wants it anyway you know
They think they do but people really want to see you who you are They want to know what you really think and what you care about and what you love and when you get to a place where you are comfortable in your own skin you can be that then you offer that to people and then they have permission to be themselves too And that'sthe basis of a genuine connection And that's when you have that fan base that support system that community One thing I know for sure may never be any more famous or successful than I am right now but I'll always be able to make music These people will never let me down I know I can do this forever we've already hit some of the worst stuff and they you know Theyme through that unless I become some kind of a monster or something Ithen they're allowed to leave But like you know don't think they're gonna abandon So that's a great feeling that's what I think when I think about sustainability of this is to like build that solid foundation of trust in a community that has your back
[00:45:57] Aaron: Yeah I always Relate that to Michaela again as kind of an outsider Being a front person but to focus on the fact that you know with social media They're all called followers So give them something to follow be yourself be grounded be rooted be real Be an integrity that's so magnetic
[00:46:13] Eliot: refreshing because there's still so many people who you can't really blame them because this is how the system is set up but social media is designed to amplify negativity whatever hot take of the moment whatever side you're on of anything the things that get the most clicks and get the little dopamine hits are the negative stuff When you put genuine things out there they really stand out
yes Yeah I'm glad that's there
[00:46:36] Aaron: yeah Definitely Absolutely I'm one of them I'm like
ah air Yeah
[00:46:40] Eliot: and it
[00:46:41] Aaron: does show you that these tools we have have huge potential for positive impact It's just not a lot of people take us up on them
[00:46:48] Eliot: Elliot when you and I talked at 38 I was like yeah you got to hang out with my husband You guys
[00:46:54] Aaron: are
[00:46:56] Michaela: into similar stuff So
[00:46:58] Aaron: or you're in Atlanta let's get together I'd love to chat We'll have some nerdy Buddhist talk if you're into that kind of thing too
it I'd
love to Definitely
[00:47:07] Michaela: Yeah
[00:47:07] Eliot: really really fun I appreciate you having me on
[00:47:09] Aaron: Thank you so much Thanks for taking the time to sit with us when I was like researching you I noticed you were the winner of the Merlefest songwriting contest I'm pretty sure I was in that contest with you
[00:47:19] Eliot: You were and I was
[00:47:20] Michaela: Okay
[00:47:23] Eliot: Cause you
you got first place first of all I'm glad you brought it up because I was never going but I
Oh
I was I remember it really wellthey had put us in a hotel like far from Murlfest Like it was way North Carolina And your room was like across the hall from mine So I heard you rehearsing in it were in a duo right
[00:47:42] Aaron: Yep and you and I like man she's so goodOh
[00:47:46] Eliot: I was like this and you sounded a lot like at least through the wall or whatever I was like they sound a lot
Oh no
It had this Dave and Gillian vibe and I just thought she's gonna win this thing for sure and the other funny thing was I didn't even enter in the country category I entered in like the general category and they threw me into it you've got third but there were only three people in it I mean like they only put three for each category and like
[00:48:06] Michaela: thank you for pointing that out Elliot
[00:48:08] Eliot: oh I didn't mean it like
[00:48:09] Michaela: that place
[00:48:14] Eliot: The other funny thing was I had never been to Morel Fest before or since but apparently in the past years the whoever got first got to play on the main stage So I was oh wow I'm gonna get to play main stage But that year they decided to put like the instrumentalists on the main stage and people who won the songwriting contest got put on a side stage during lunch
I looked out at a sea of empty seats
[00:48:34] Michaela: and they never asked Morel Fest again It didn't lead to anything as soon as I saw that I was like wait I think I remember this don't actually remember that much about it But I do remember it That was like in a time where and it looks like you were doing a lot of contests too And I was in Telluride and Kerrville and all this stuff but I never won any of them And sweet old pal Melody Walker one time who was in the contest Chris Austin she introduced me to someone at Folk Alliance she was like Oh yeah this is Michaela Ann She's like an Every single songwriting contest but like never wins first place She was like
[00:49:11] Aaron: always the bridesmaid never the bride
[00:49:13] Michaela: I was Well well thanks Melody
I lost Kerrville twice Rocky Mountain Folk Fest you name it that's the only one
[00:49:22] Eliot: I always try
[00:49:23] Michaela: say that I have been in so many and never won And I also know people who won Telluride and now he's a good friend He's a manager He's not even a performer anymore so to not put too much stock on it but the great thing about it Is just the opportunity for community and the people that you meet from it Yeah you
[00:49:41] Aaron: guys obviously made a
[00:49:42] Michaela:
[00:49:42] Aaron: great community
from that
[00:49:43] Eliot: we're right yeah
[00:49:45] Aaron: are like 12 years later 10 years More
[00:49:48] Eliot: oh than that Yeah
[00:49:50] Michaela: I think you were there No that's funny Yeah That's yeahthat were never going to bring that up to me
[00:49:55] Eliot: cause again likeI lost curvil twice I lost a bunch of these contests And I know everybody who won them in my mind I know So I just
like
it really felt bad to not win this contest And I don't know why I think back then especially like I really needed the validation and for someone to be like they're better than you it really hurt I had to stop doing it it was a bad feeling
[00:50:14] Michaela: I get that I'm so sensitive and for some reason I don't remember it impacting me that much I remember one Telluride I was sad because I really thought like I hada good chance But I've judged the Chris Austin songwriting contest and mouth fest but not in person like the pre thing And it's like I don't know if I gave those people a fair shake I might've been tired by the time I listened to the 10th song and heard it different So it's just likeyou can't take any of that as a real Judgment on your songwriting
And I think that there are good contest songs.
[00:50:50] Eliot: the songs that stand out in contests are usually like, look how clever this song is, There are certain things that like,make them work, because you gotta think that there are these judges sitting there, and in their movie they're a good judge, and they know what's good, and like,Why'd you like that song?
I don't know, it felt good. that's probably good enough reason, right? But, I like that song. Look at this awesome line. Let me show you, because I know an awesome line, so there's psychology that, too. And,One day, this song hits me hard.
And another day, this song hits me hard. If the contest was on a Tuesday,somebody else wins.
[00:51:20] Michaela: yep exactly
Well
I'm glad
[00:51:24] Eliot: I brought that up at thewell I'm glad you are too so I can stop wondering if like, should I say anything about that?
[00:51:30] Michaela: Oh yeah, should say something.
[00:51:31] Eliot: I just feel like, cause I'm really sensitive too. And I'm like I bet Michaela hates me.
Cause I won that
[00:51:36] Michaela: contest Have
[00:51:42] Eliot: I seen you before?
[00:51:43] Michaela: We're all good.
[00:51:44] Eliot: We've been in this game for a long time. And I've forgotten more than I remember.
right.
y'all All right, Elliot. Thanks so much, man. ThankThank
you. Appreciate it.
[00:51:53] Aaron: