Ezinma is a violinist, artist, film composer, and educator who became a viral sensation from her performance videos, has released records on Universal Records, performed with Beyonce, Stevie Wonder, Kendrick Lamar, Khalid, Joshua Bell and Yo Yo Ma to name a few, composed the score for numerous films, and founded a non-profit that brings classical music education to underserved communities. We talk about how having viral moments changed and challenged her creativity, how she grew from that as a person and an artist, her lifelong pursuit of educating herself (she has multiple masters degrees) as well as being an educator herself, the power of music education, and it goes on.
Ezinma is a violinist, artist, film composer, and educator who became a viral sensation from her performance videos, has released records on Universal Records, performed with Beyonce, Stevie Wonder, Kendrick Lamar, Khalid, Joshua Bell and Yo Yo Ma to name a few, composed the score for numerous films, and founded a non-profit that brings classical music education to underserved communities. We talk about how having viral moments changed and challenged her creativity, how she grew from that as a person and an artist, her lifelong pursuit of educating herself (she has multiple masters degrees) as well as being an educator herself, the power of music education, and it goes on.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss
[00:00:04] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne. And since this show is not even a year old, if you are just now checking us out, we really appreciate it. And if you are coming back from listening to other episodes, we really appreciate
[00:00:17] Aaron: that as well.
Yeah, we know there are thousands of podcasts out there. So the fact that you guys come back for even just two episodes really means a lot to us. And if you are a returning listener, we got to Really simple ask for you, chances are you heard about this through somebody else whether it was on social media or word of mouth or whatever it is.
If you could just take a second and pay that forward and pass it along the same way that you found out about it. It would go a long way in getting new listeners to the show, and the more listeners we have, the more guests we can have, and the more ideas we can share back with you, and that's the whole point of this thing.
[00:00:47] Michaela: Yeah, and we're not your typical music promo show. We like to talk to artists in their off time, so we're not wanting to talk about the latest record they're promoting or their latest album. tour. We focus on the behind the scenes tools and routines they found helpful in staying inspired, creative and sane while building a career around their art.
[00:01:07] Aaron: Yeah. And a lot of our listeners are musicians as well. So as you know, there is a ton of things in this industry that are completely outside of our control. And so we wanted to focus on what is within our control. keeping that in mind, we invited some of our friends and some of our favorite artists on to have a conversation about all the other times that are normally outside of the public eye and ask them the basic question.
What do you do to create sustainability in your life? So you can sustain your creativity I will say that today's guest maybe has the most interesting way that she stays grounded we ended the episode by asking, you what are some things outside of your massive list of artistic endeavors?
What do you do To just kind of blow off steam or to stay level And she responded very quickly and very enthusiastically with scuba diving we are talking about Azeema.
[00:01:55] Michaela: Most people are like I go running or try and do yoga, but no she's a scuba diver.
She's also An incredibly accomplished violinist, composer, educator, runs a non profit has played in Beyonce's band and was in Beyonce's historic 2018 Coachella performance,
[00:02:13] Aaron: Yeah, she's, composed for a bunch of different films like Angel City about women's soccer that was just on HBO. She composed the score for the Times of Bill Cunningham documentary, bunch of different things.
[00:02:24] Michaela: She also has performed or played with Rihanna, Stevie Wonder, Kendrick Lamar.
Joshua Bell Yo Yo Ma. She is an incredible artist blending many different genres and also seems like an incredibly kind person.
[00:02:38] Aaron: and without further ado, here's our conversation.
thank you so much for being here and carving out time for us.
[00:02:45] Ezinma: Of course it's my pleasure.
[00:02:46] Aaron: We wanted to start because we do some research on people beforehand and your team sent us some stuff and it seems, you've been on a bunch of TV shows and talked a lot about this viral video that you had, and, to pull back the curtain on our end we get pitched almost weekly by publicists like, hey, we have this artist, they have this viral video like, blah, blah, blah. And. With no disrespect, it seems like the viral video for them was the start of things. And looking into you, you have so much going on. You have such depth and breadth of what you're doing. It seemed, in my judgment, that this viral thing was just something that happened in the normal case of you being, in my judgment, very prolific in what you do.
obviously it opened a bunch of doors, but like how did that moment affect you? Your creativity and like you as an artist, did it change things?
[00:03:32] Ezinma: Yeah, you know, that's a really fascinating question because I think for a lot of, especially new independent artists, having a viral moment is something that, can be such a goldmine for so many people. I think from a monetary standpoint, but then from the perspective of creativity, I found it a bit limiting.
I think there was something about having all these eyes and knowing that something worked and naturally wanting to gravitate towards rinse and repeat this and see what happens. And while that allows for a very successful business model, I don't always think that is.
conducive to really being in alignment with one's creative voice. So I found after that moment, to your point, I've been playing the violin my entire life. I've been in the industry working and recording for a very long time. It really was something that really allowed me to catapult what I was already doing.
However, it did. I think, shift some of the wiring in my brain where I was suddenly more focused about, what's going to get a reaction from social media instead of what am I really trying to say? And it's interesting from that video I then signed with Universal, had this record deal and it was interesting because once again I was faced with really thinking about things from the side of the consumer rather than from the side of me and what I want to say.
So I ultimately, while I have no regrets about anything because it really allowed me to launch a lot as a creative, as a businesswoman, as somebody who's, you know, sort of non profit. It really opened a lot of doors for me. And yet I do feel like there were some side effects creatively that I could not have foreseen Mm hmm. experienced it.
And also this is just me personally, I Mm hmm. there are some people in which. It is freeing to just know that, hey like, I don't have to be bound to an algorithm. But I think for me, I was like, oh my gosh, all of these eyes. And I was scared and like, getting anxiety about what people were saying, what people were thinking.
I also got some backlash from the classical community. Not as much anymore, but it was a lot at the time to just go from Oh, it's just my community of creatives to a world of people who I don't know, who are, they're mostly out of positivity, but not always. it was a really wild experience.
[00:05:53] Michaela: I feel like fame or a large audience even though that can be a goal for many of us because of what it allows you to do, it also can be terrifying. I think about that all the time of I have a very small audience I know a lot of my fans and I don't experience mean comments online I often wonder if sometimes I can feel limited by like, well, I don't want that, getting in the big arena because of all the negativity that can come with it as well.
And then the expectation of. Okay. How do you sustain that and how do you do it again? And then all the other people that might come on board for you, like the record deal and other, brand partnerships and stuff that then are expecting you to keep doing it. where are you right now with that kind of stuff, and have you found ways to help yourself work through it and get back to your centered artistry?
[00:06:48] Ezinma: I'm going to respond to the first, and I'll answer your question. So in response to the arena, I think as artists, we're always really examining internally what is the arena for us. I think for some people, it's, getting a big audience. I think for other people, even the most famous artists, I think it's being authentic.
I think you can be a very successful artist with tens of hundreds of millions of streams, all these followers and not feel authentic. And I think, we see that a lot with a lot of really big pop stars. I think especially people who started young. So I think the arena can look like very different things, which leads me to answer your question.
And right now I'm in this place where, I'm working on my album. And it's really interesting because This feels in so many ways like the first time I've really been able to Pull back the curtain and be authentic to my voice, coming from the classical world. So much of our training is playing what's already been written, performing, interpreting, reimagining all of that stuff.
So even though there is a ton of creativity and a ton of expression, it's within a framework that I always found very limiting. Then, fast forward, I started playing with bands and touring and, you know, that has its own restrictions. And then, this social media thing, that was its own thing. And then, this record deal thing, that was its own restriction.
Right now, I've since left Universal and, everything's on good terms. But, since leaving, I'm like, okay, what do I want to say? And, What do I want people to feel? Who am I as an artist? And it's really exciting to just feel like the shedding of skin, like a snake or,
hmm. Mm hmm. Mm that like hmm. Mm
That's what it feels like. And I think this for me is a new arena and it's not so much about amassing followers or fans or streams. It's really just about being really honest about where I am in life right now.
[00:08:42] Aaron: I love that. How long did it take you to get back to that after you had your viral moment? Did it take a lot of work?
[00:08:48] Ezinma: Yeah, it took a long time, and it's, interesting because I've been working the entire time, I've been performing, I've been, doing tons, but I think silently in the background, I've just been really reprogramming
and processing everything that's happened. Because, you know, it happens fast, and I think, there's something about success in which it happens when you don't expect it, which is why I think it's so important to always be ready. But something that I wasn't aware of is the readiness just isn't in like finger dexterity and like being able to put on a show.
It's also in having the emotional, preparedness, the support of your family and your hmm. having people to just check you, even things about budgeting or things about what I want my brand to be or, all of these little details exercising and how much am I going to be eating and, what am I going to be putting into my body?
All of these things that I think really easily can be thrown out the window when you're just like thrown into a situation where you're like, all right the calendar's really busy and you're on a plane every week and it's awesome. And I. think going back, I would just tell my younger self to just really make sure that the garden of support and like the root system is really nourished so that I'm really fortified in that expansion.
[00:10:00] Michaela: Yeah, I think, in, in my own life and experience and then also as I've observed, you know, lots of friends on having different like, moments of, buzz or bumps in their career. it's something that I didn't think about when I was younger, of just the emotional care that it takes because it's almost like a sugar rush.
[00:10:18] Ezinma: Yeah,
[00:10:19] Michaela: And having, yeah, like extreme dopamine. hits and like how to manage that because of just like the depletion that can come with the comedown and also the addiction that can come from it and the morphing in your mind of just Oh, okay. That's what I need.
[00:10:35] Ezinma: Right.
[00:10:35] Michaela: And what does it say? about myself and my identity and all these things, especially for, I think if you've spent your life training and working to become a competent musician to then also be an artist, there's always that uh, semi attached on varying levels for all of us of building an audience for that.
And then always checking that relationship of like, okay, well, how much do I want to be like catering to my perception of my audience? And how much do I need to be cultivating what is me? And then also what My personal life is that I think we also can forget at times of intense career growth that the personal life can be a little like, okay, that's there and I got to focus on my career because this is hot Right. now versus, oh, this is really essential to make sure that it's intentional to nurture this.
Like you said, the root system, which is a really beautiful way to think about that.
[00:11:32] Ezinma: And I think like just to add to that it's not permanent. It's a bump. It's a spike. It's something in which what goes up must come down. I don't mean that in a, negative sense, but it's more just, everybody's time, it ebbs and flows. And I think, that's even more of a reason to just be, you know, your personal life, your spiritual life, your physical health, everything to really be supported that way.
When things do slow down, you're not stuck with like, Oh my gosh, I have all of these holes in which I haven't really nurtured them. So I think, I think there's something there that I. I've really been examining feels so good to just feel things patching and coming together.
[00:12:11] Aaron: Yeah.
I can appreciate that. over the last few years, I've really taken pride in, filling those holes, but... in balance, I can very easily just be completely consumed with my career and my ambition, blindly, in a way, and really only focus on that, and then I don't notice all these holes, and then when it does slow down, or when I burn out, inevitably, or whatever it is there's no net, and then I have to, like, kind of scramble back, and so I'm really trying to be more proactive and more present in being rounded and being balanced, and, even if I have this burning ambition and, all of these mostly self imposed deadlines, I'm like, oh, this needs to be here to like, Be patient and trust that will happen and to like really focus on the stuff that's behind the scenes a little bit more.
[00:12:55] Ezinma: Yeah.
totally. Yeah.
[00:12:57] Michaela: I'm curious how education plays a role in this for you because from my research, both of your parents were professors, correct? And you have a lot of education. You have two masters, is that correct? Aaron went to Interlochen for high school,
[00:13:14] Ezinma: cool! I went to
[00:13:14] Aaron: and Did you go to the academy or did you go to the camp?
[00:13:17] Ezinma: I did the summer camp and it like, kicked my ass. It was like, the best thing ever.
[00:13:22] Aaron: Yeah. I went to two years of the, I never went to the camp, but I went to two years at the academy. And, oh, it? changed my life. Absolutely. I would not be where I'm at without that. Yeah.
it's an incredible place, and everything that I heard about the camp... was that It was just like way more strict like, Yeah.
[00:13:40] Ezinma: Yeah.
[00:13:41] Aaron: We had the same uniform, we had to wear like the light blue collared shirts and the navy blue pants, but it was the academy, literally people would just cut the collar off a shirt and stuff it into a t shirt, and then be like all it said is that we needed to wear a light blue collar, so I got the light blue collar, and they would let it slide, I don't know if it's like that now, this is years ago, but,
[00:13:58] Ezinma: So you got the rebels at the academy?
[00:13:59] Aaron: Yeah, exactly.
[00:14:00] Ezinma: Ha ha Ha! That's
[00:14:01] Aaron: Partly because like we all had to deal with the winter there, which is pretty long and pretty dark. And, but, artistically, it just completely changed my life. And, I was there as a percussionist like the drum set guy on campus.
you know, I played percussion and I played marimba, but like nowhere near what everybody else was doing. So it was like incredibly intimidating but I played in the jazz ensemble and I played in the combo and I, when there was like a drum set part in the percussion ensemble, I'd play that.
I think that's kind of why I got in they're like, Oh, this guy can actually play drums. Um, Not to be totally self deprecating, but you mentioned you got some pushback from the classical music world. , can you talk a little bit more about that? Sorry to co-opt your question here.
Oh, Yeah.
[00:14:42] Ezinma: Now I
[00:14:43] Aaron: I'm just,
[00:14:43] Ezinma: merge it all together.
It's interesting because I, think like back to your, question, Michaela, about education, in terms of classical training, and this also relates to interlock, and it's very much about Mastering. perfection, crafting, I'm just throwing out keywords it's very, very competitive.
It's very, you know, everybody could be playing the same piece, this person's tone is that or that person is a little, you know, everybody, there are massive differences, but to most people, it just sounds the same. I think there's this culture around in the classical space.
It is changing, but it's still there where it's very much About your pedigree, who did you study with? Where did you go to school? you know, What type of violin are you playing? Or, and all of this stuff. And I think, because of just that sort of culture coming in playing, let's say Paganini with like very ratchet 808s, that's a reaction that.
for me it was like there were a lot of negative things like this is blasphemous are you to think you can do this and it's really just because it's very disruptive to the culture. And I think, when I went to Interlochen, I'm originally from Nebraska and I was just the best.
In my school, the best in my state and all that stuff and I think walking into a space where like, oh, okay this is what these kids are doing. It really forced me to level up and you know, I think just that experience of constantly being like, oh, okay, I Love to be around people who are significantly better than me and I think that's why I just keep going to school I like being forced to just level up.
And school is not the only way to do that. There's so many ways to do that. I think for me, it was just when the pandemic hit, I was like, you know what? Let me just go back to school. And I went to Berkeley and, I got a master's degree in film scoring cause I'd done some film work and didn't really know what I was doing.
So that's why I went back to school. But yeah, I think I kind of answered everything.
[00:16:34] Aaron: Yeah. You definitely did. Yeah.
[00:16:36] Michaela: Yeah. I was asking that also because we also went to the new school.
[00:16:40] Ezinma: Oh, cool. Yeah,
[00:16:41] Aaron: We went to the jazz school, which I guess now Maness and the jazz school are combined,
[00:16:46] Ezinma: They're combined,
[00:16:47] Aaron: which totally makes sense to me. When we were there, Maness was still on like 82nd street or something.
We're down on 13th street and it made no sense to me coming from Interlochen where like, you know, I was there and I like. Loved jazz, and I was going to the library and taking out like every jazz record they had, and I was learning about that and, totally getting my ass kicked jazz wise, in what was happening there on top of the classical way.
But I learned so much. From all of the classical musicians that were there, the people that were, in there until we had to be in our dorm rooms, like shedding etudes and like going deep, which is not a world that I came from, but I could take that and that influenced the way that I was driven and the way that I, focused on my craft.
And it was pretty amazing.
[00:17:30] Michaela: Well, And what's interesting about what you were saying about the classic world and also coming from like an institutional background, I feel like a lot of us who graduated from the New School Jazz feel similar which has always been fascinating to me where jazz music was created by people who were pushing boundaries and now it's become.
institutionalized and a lot of us felt very confined of like, Oh, if we don't play in the way that They're telling us we're supposed to, then we are not good which never made sense to me. So I think it's interesting when people, go through that and continue to choose it as well, but then have the bravery and the will to be like, I'm going to continue to push boundaries and show that this isn't the only way.
And also become an educator yourself which I also teach music and we both also worked a lot in the teaching artist programs in New York City and did like after school programs and stuff in Harlem and in Brooklyn. So there's a lot of overlap when I was reading about what you do. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about Also, how then becoming an educator, overlaps and then feeds your own artistic mission by trying to share with others as well.
[00:18:47] Ezinma: Yeah. Man, that's so cool. that you guys are also teaching in New York. It's, I don't know, I find it really I enjoy teaching. I genuinely love working with people of all ages um, adults and children. I just think it's really fun to teach. But from sort of a zoomed out perspective, I really think this is, very cliche and corny, but I genuinely believe this.
I think there's so much. growth and change that can happen in the world through music. To be a good musician, you have to be able to be collaborative. You have to be able to sit down with people who, don't even need to speak the same language, right? You can really work with anyone if you understand music.
And I see a lot of times, especially with, high schools, I've done some things in like, East Harlem, these really underserved communities where Maybe behavior isn't the best in the classroom, right? A lot of lashing out and I'll never forget. I was at Isaac Newton middle school and they've kind of warned me like this is a group that's, you know, don't know what they're going to say, we're grateful you're here.
[00:19:46] Michaela: experienced those as well. Oh,
[00:19:49] Ezinma: But it's amazing because as soon as the music starts, it's like they're there and they're hooked and they're listening and they're engaged. And I think. There is something there that I really want just the educational system as a whole to understand. And I think after COVID, a lot of Especially schools in which funding is already tight, music's gonna go and I think if anything that should be like the thing that stays because that's really what, you know, if you read biographies about some of these great artists, that's what saves people oftentimes is, music and having that one teacher or that one person or that one, I don't know.
Keyboardist in church who let them hop up and like shadow them when they were six years old and it changes their life. So for me, I just think music education, in addition to enjoying it, I do just see it as a vehicle for social change.
[00:20:40] Aaron: That's awesome. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's Studying music and practicing music is just so beneficial in so many ways that aren't seen. it's this really unique blend. I'm probably going to botch this because this is like a half baked thought that's been in my head for a while and now it's coming out of my mouth into a microphone on a podcast.
So people that have, people that have heard this before are used to me saying this and hopefully this lands, but, it's this like really great blend of, when you're practicing music. It's focus and you're working on focus, but then you can tangibly see results and to me that creates a feedback loop of interest it focuses on the process, you know, it really teaches somebody like, oh, I worked at this and look at what I did know, you get pride, you get the sense of ownership in it, that can extend to so much more than
[00:21:25] Ezinma: that's a fully baked idea because I just feel that in so many ways you're teaching children how to learn and you're teaching people how to learn and how to master. And I think for me, earlier in the conversation, you, we were talking about holes in our lives and everything. And I think, you know, if you imagine as a table and we have different legs in which the table stands on.
And I think. knowing how to study an instrument and music and practice and put in your time every day or, whatever your practice schedule is, that's a leg. And I think for kids, especially just having confidence in something and especially when that something is also an outlet Oh man, I was bullied or, Oh man, I don't fit in or, Oh man, like my parents suck or whatever it is.
I think there's so many ways that. Music can just really provide many legs for the table, so that if you lose one leg, the table still is standing. And I think it's just such a powerful and holistic thing. And honestly, like the best thing my parents ever did for me was listen to me when I begged to play the violin at four years old.
And I don't know where that came from, because they had no idea kids could play music, hmm. they were like okay, we'll like rent this little thing and... That was that. have no idea where I would be without music, honestly.
[00:22:37] Michaela: Yeah, I think often about when I've taught. young kids, how you can see the confidence building of, you know, when they would get frustrated with learning a song, I would actively be like, remember that other song that you didn't know how to play? And then remember, you got frustrated, but we kept going.
And now isn't that song easy? And just like step by step, reminding them of you felt Like something was hard before and you kept at it and now you have evidence of you can play it and it feels like no problem time and time again, I would see these little brains be like, Oh yeah, okay, I'll keep trying.
[00:23:14] Ezinma: Right.
[00:23:15] Michaela: And I feel like I also teach more adults now, but You have to kind of do the same thing and then that translates to so many aspects in our life as we become adults, it's even harder to have patience with ourselves when something feels frustrating or hard to be like, wait, remember I've been here before and what do I do?
Can you share a little bit about Strings by Heart and where that idea came from?
[00:23:37] Ezinma: Yeah, I mean, It really just sort of ties into what we're talking about. Strings by Heart is a non profit. That I started in the middle of the pandemic, which is, that feels like yesterday, but also it just feels like a completely different
[00:23:49] Michaela: I know. Oh, it's a different lifetime at the same time.
[00:23:52] Ezinma: Yeah. So I started it then and basically it's devoted to providing free instruments, free music education, community outreach, and also just.
me doing outreach within schools in the U. S. as a whole, and it's based in New York City, and yeah, it's just my passion project to Everything we've said in this conversation just to help bring music. to more people. Also, it's specifically focused on classical music because, black and brown people were very underrepresented in that space.
it's sort of two things. It's to help just give kids access, but also, in providing access, bring more inclusivity and diversity into the classical space. And, honestly, Starting a non profit is no joke, especially when you're with working with kids, but it's just been so amazing. We work with Shora Music.
They're our instrument partner and yeah, so we're just getting ready to do some outreach this fall. it's really exciting and something that I've always wanted to do and I always thought I would do when I was like, I don't know, 60 or something Mm hmm. to get there. But I don't know, I just, when the pandemic hit and just all these kids at home and parents struggling, I just started putting up like online, how to make a violin at home and it just snowballed into things.
And I was like, let's just do it now. And. Even if we're only helping three kids, let's say hypothetically, that's three kids who then help three more kids, help three more kids, help three more kids. And it's just amazing. So far, our reach has been about, 400 and some children so far.
Wow. yeah, it's been really great.
[00:25:18] Michaela: Cool. Do you have a staff or a team that helps with that or?
[00:25:23] Ezinma: Yep. It's me, my nonprofit manager. I have an assistant and then my management team, they, help with just like facilitating. But, we're
[00:25:30] Michaela: not
that many people though.
[00:25:32] Ezinma: No, it's really not. And we're looking to hire, somebody who can really be on the ground in New York. Cause I just travel and get there, but.
Yeah, so far we've been really doing a lot of outreach and just like talking to groups of kids, but it's just, it's exciting and I think the hardest thing though is after the pandemic, just a lot of schools, they're really, really struggling because the children have come back behind, in terms of reading and math and for a lot of children schools where they get fed, it's safety, it's a tough ecosystem right now, but,
[00:26:01] Michaela: reflecting back on our time when we were in school, It feels just infuriating that it's not an equal playing ground for people and that it has nothing to do with the children has, you know, economic disparity, racial injustice, and just the handful of schools that I've you'd go to one school and they would have a surplus of instruments that they didn't know what to do with.
And then you'd go to another school. I taught one school where I was just telling the story the other night where it was like a program funded by the Brooklyn Philharmonic. I taught like a keyboard class of over 20 kids and we only had 10 keyboards. I think it took me like a month or two to finally like figure out, we had this whole routine that we had to do.
Like I'd come in with a bag of extension cords and we had like a map of all these extension cords to be able to, as quick as possible, get every keyboard hooked up and then get partners and switch between like worksheets while the other one's playing. And it was just like such a crazy mindfuck.
Sorry about like how to just be able to teach without ample supplies. And it was just like, okay. And I know probably. Down the street there's somebody in a four million dollar house that could like buy a thousand keyboards No problem, and it just can feel that's not how the world works, but I wish it was
[00:27:22] Ezinma: I know.
[00:27:22] Michaela: So one of the things when as I was doing my internet sleuthing on you is like So much of what it looks like you've been doing is What a lot of people talk about of like our dreams of Oh, I want to do this artistically and I want to have this opportunity and I want to, and also I want to give back and provide these things and it looks like you are someone who puts that stuff into action.
is that just your natural personality or do you have times where you're just like, I feel lazy and I'm going to do the bare minimum. And what do you do when you have to like try and motivate and what kind of organizational motivation tactics do you have to use?
[00:27:57] Ezinma: Wow, that's a great question because I feel in some ways like I'm in that space right now Let me preface this with the following. I'm very much a deadline person. I love the pressure of this needs to be done. the show, like the set, whatever I love a deadline.
When I don't have deadlines, that's when I feel I have to really test my discipline and, capability of just getting stuff done anyway. So right now with this album that I'm working on, it's something where I'm looking at my second screen and I have a whole Google spreadsheet of each piece, the BPM, the key, what's the status, I really have to be incredibly organized.
Mm-hmm. that holds me accountable. I just like seeing things checked off. I have definitely been in a space where it's been much more like loose and free and I just feel like I'm not as productive. Also, There's a lot going on. I'm going to Toronto Film Festival next week. I also work in film and TV and with the strike, things are really slow right . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. I find that when I'm very busy, I am incredibly productive. It's when things are slow that I'm, really have to use these tools to like, stay on it and set timer for two hours, put my phone in a different room, turn off my wifi, just find little tricks that just really get me to focus on the task at hand and it's interesting, I feel like when I was younger and before social media, I would just focus, I'd read for hours, I'd practice, for hours without looking at any phone because there's really nothing to look at.
And I do feel just my attention span has gotten so much shorter. so because of that, I just have to do things to just actively push back that interruption. in terms of giving back I don't know. I just think it's just from my experiences. I think just from, my parents divorced when five.
And, they're both professors, but when my parents divorced, my mom, she moved away from the university to go to the university in Illinois. And so I was commuting between Nebraska and Illinois when I was five years old. Oh, wow. Then she left Illinois, came back to Nebraska, gave up her job as a professor and was substitute teaching because the way professorships work is it's, you know, sort of like the Supreme Court.
You gotta wait until somebody is old or resigns or dies to really get the job at the university. So for a long time my mom was living, below the poverty line and my dad was, middle class. So I think because I saw these two very different things, first of all, I think because of just the fact that I had two very different situations culturally, financially, in terms of just like structure and everything and parenting styles.
I think that's why I enjoy blending genres so much. I think that's why I like taking classical and mixing it with, more modern styles and twisting things and subverting things. Cause that's just sort of my upbringing. I've been oscillating between two different things Mm-hmm. but I think on the other side of that is it's no joke, like poverty and not having what you need is something that as a child.
You really have no say, like my mother has been an incredible mother and really did everything she could also like to point out the privilege that had in my dad who was able to step in and like help buy a refrigerator or a dryer or whatever things that we needed, but it's just interesting because I think that experience really made me compassionate towards so many families that just.
Life is hard forget about music, but just like survival and getting your kids to school and, paying for medical bills and all these things. So I think just because of that experience, I've always known that I really want to give kids because I feel in so many ways like I was so privileged to have the life even that I had.
So that's sort of, I think, where it comes from. And I think that's also where just my musical tastes of just mixing styles comes from is just my whole childhood and the way I was raised.
[00:31:51] Aaron: Has mixing styles and all of that. been an interest to you all along? Or is that something that you've come to later on?
[00:31:58] Ezinma: No, definitely all along, I mean, I would do fiddling competitions, like national
[00:32:02] Aaron: Cool. Yeah.
[00:32:03] Ezinma: from Nebraska, and my mom is really into bluegrass, and we grew up on like, Bill Monroe, and, this isn't really bluegrass, but like, Joan Baez, and just really listening to, like, a lot of these Americana styles, and I just love roots music so much.
I would do these fiddling competitions, and You know, I'd be like winning these checks as a little kid just had my cowboy boots and did that whole thing. So I was doing that, studying classically. My dad's from Guyana, which is in South America. It's Cool. That's kind of
Indies. We grew up on a lot of reggae and he loved funk.
So I think I just was always exposed to so many styles. And the radio would be on and I would just like jam and, you know, it was just sort of a part of who I am. But, I always just loved classical music. That was my favorite. but to answer your question, yeah, that's just always been a part of my DNA to mix.
[00:32:48] Aaron: shooting towards earlier, asking about interlocking and asking about coming up through like classical music education, because it seems my understanding of learning the violin, are certain rules that you need to follow to have proper technique, to have proper intonation, and it seems like something that you have to start like pretty early on.
It seems pretty rigid versus coming from like a percussion background, which, there is proper technique. There are certain things, but it's seemingly so much more. wiggle room, And you can imagine stepping out from that, very rigid and very strict. it feels like there's a gravitational pull to being in that.
[00:33:23] Ezinma: Yeah, definitely. And I think it really sucks people and sometimes it can feel hard to get out of it. But I always, I don't know, I would just remember I would just like be making up stuff and like a Mozart concerto. My teacher's like, that's just not in there.
What are you doing right now? And I feel like I thought it was in there. The other thing is I. I would fake reading music. I wasn't reading music, but I was like Oh, and I think that's the other thing is I just was making up stuff and I learned things by ear and would pretend that I could read the music for a long time until my teacher finally figured out.
And then I, of course, learned. But yeah, I think it was just, I just have always been um, not interested in that. the perfection of it all.
[00:34:00] Michaela: Well, And I wonder, like you said, being in kind of two different worlds, economically, also racially and then also the spaces that you were in with school and studying music and how from such a young age, I would imagine and would love for you to speak on if you feel comfortable of the awareness of where do I belong in?
The world and the culture for all. these things that, the outside world tells me makes me different, or maybe I don't fit into a clean box. And then the parallel and also overlap of music, of how blending genres and working within different musical, how that feeds itself of the personal and then the musical, and then obviously the professional of just like a path or a journey of like acceptance also of getting to know yourself when we live in a world that's like, well, you don't quite make sense.
Or we live in a country, specifically, that's like, we like things to be really separated and put into these neat boxes. And when you're someone who doesn't, I think it can take a lot of strength to get to a place of being like, no, there's actually nothing wrong with me and this diversity is really rich and beautiful.
[00:35:12] Ezinma: Yeah. you know, I think just as artists in general, most of us... turn to art because we just didn't fit in boxes. I think a lot of my friends that I talk to, it's a lot of us, we just didn't fit in. We, maybe we're bullied, we were, I don't know, maybe smaller than the other kids. Like, I know for me, I skipped a grade, so I was just always the runty one.
There's that, maybe turn to music more. And then the interesting thing is that You have all this creativity, you have all this I don't fit in, I'm gonna put it into my music, and my instrument, or whatever. And then, you become an adult, and you need to start making money from music, so then you find that you have to compartmentalize to be successful.
So it's sort of this like, weird thing of really just peeling back and realizing hey, I actually don't fit in and I've never fit in, so let's stop pretending here and let's just really lean into that because that's why I'm an artist to begin with. I think people who are, normal, I don't think are artists usually.
think they're other things, but I feel like for us, we have to really lean in to that. Awkwardness, that sort of alienation, that maybe feeling isolated because that's really what makes us great. I don't know if I answered your question,
[00:36:26] Michaela: No, you definitely did and the seeking I think that like the seeking and the searching is, a big part of creative people and personalities.
[00:36:34] Ezinma: Yeah, 100%.
[00:36:36] Michaela: I have a good childhood friend who's a scientist and he married a fellow scientist and he's always like, you guys just always seem not settled or you're always like looking for other things and anytime I talk to him, he's like, I have no care in the world.
I feel great. And I'm just like, yeah, this is like, our brains just work very differently.
[00:36:55] Ezinma: I know.
[00:36:56] Michaela: he picked a new place to move by never visiting and like making a spreadsheet about the different,
places and cities and I'm like, but you didn't go feel it. He's like, no.
[00:37:06] Ezinma: Yeah, it's just so interesting because you think you'd be the other way around. You think that, we would be the ones who are like, oh yeah, like da da dum, but instead so many of us are just like, oh, what's happening? You know what I, it's just interesting to me, but I think I'm just really learning to just embrace it and be like, this is okay for me to feel confused and uncertain all the time.
I know what I'm doing other days. You I think it's just a part of it or wow, this is the shittiest thing I've ever recorded in my life. Why am I so bad? But then on the other side, it's like, this is brilliant. those things happen within 10 minutes of each other.
[00:37:40] Aaron: I was just gonna say, yeah, and sometimes I feel that same way about the same piece of music. It just happened earlier. I wrote something with this guy and I haven't finished filling out and he was just checking in on it earlier and I was like, yeah, I just had to step away and work on something else for a little while.
There's no deadline to this and in my head, I've known about it for the last 3 and a half months and been like, Yeah.
I think we kind of just missed the mark on it. You know, It's just not quite there. I listen back. I was like, oh no, this is actually like this is good like and before I was like give up.
This is the last thing I'm ever going to write
[00:38:08] Ezinma: So it's like moral of the story. I guess. just like, don't judge yourself because you're going to change your mind.
[00:38:13] Aaron: Yeah.
Exactly. I want to ask about what you do writing for film and TV. We've had a few different composer friends on here. Can you talk to us a little bit about what you do? I see that you have a long list of films and documentaries that you've written for and...
[00:38:27] Ezinma: Yeah, it's a really interesting thing because you, you have feedback, you know, you have a director or producer or, the music supervisor who's Oh, I'm like, we're loving this, like this direction and it's so interesting because Yeah. the way I approach TV and film and documentaries is I, I watch it, read the script, whatever.
And then I just write themes. I write a bunch of themes maybe like the resilience theme or maybe the, empathy theme. Like, sort of like these really big words and I sort of build a palette around these themes. thematic concepts, and then from there, I derive cues. But when I write the themes, I then send them to the director, the music editor.
If they love it, the cool thing is they can start editing with the thematic material I've written. So I just did this show for HBO called Angel City, and that's what happened, is because I came on and wrote all this thematic material, and they loved it, I mean, I wrote probably like... an hour and a half worth of music. And from there they sort of edit to it, which then makes the process, pretty quick because you already have established. a sound world and a tonal world and you've established the psychology, musically, of the project. Then from there, you get more granular and you're, really tailoring and writing to the picture specifically.
But I find that working thematically and, just getting on the same board creatively with the team helps a lot. It's interesting though because, we are creatives and we write music and we, we aren't really accountable to anyone. I mean, I guess, you know, Unless you have a really controlling label.
But it's really just what you want. And with film and TV, not about you. It's about the story. It's about the show. It's about what's, the dialogue needs to be heard, and so it's all of these things that I, think as a recording artist and performer first, that's something that I really had to, shift gears when I do that type of work.
And also it's really fun. Like I really enjoy the collaborative process. Nature and the communication and the team and, getting to work with the sound design and getting clips of the soccer players because Angel City was about women's soccer. They're, sounds from their practice, like the balls and their grunts and turning it into beats and it's really fun.
It's just a very different type of creativity than just writing music for yourself.
[00:40:41] Aaron: Yeah.
the little bit of work I've done, has been mostly as like an assistant composer and all of that, but just in general, and it comes from, our time in New York as well, like interacting with, Creatives in another medium is so inspiring to me, I write music for TV, but it's not to picture, it's more like, you know, licensing and placement kind of angle I get briefs a lot and I'm writing to all of that and like really, putting my compositional brain and writing brain in this space of being, a film director, or, a director of photography, something like that.
And thinking about the shot and different camera angles and approaching music in that way is a really inspiring approach to me. You can see that it also from what I've gleaned from people is when you're writing for picture and when you're writing for film is definitely jumping into the deep end of not being precious and not being attached.
[00:41:28] Michaela: Yeah. I was going to ask how those shorter deadlines you know, like if you're making a record, maybe you're like, Oh, I've got several months or, but where I took one film scoring class in college and was like, this is way too much anxiety for me, I will never do this. But witnessing...
Do you know Osei Esed by any chance?
[00:41:45] Ezinma: Yeah. Osaicid. I've heard the name.
[00:41:47] Michaela: Osei is our very close friend who's scored a, he's scored quite a few HBO documentaries, The Documentary of Bryan Stevenson, Aaron worked on that with him, and a ton, he just did a
[00:41:58] Aaron: Disney movie. Yeah.
he spends, he's in LA a lot working with Dan Roemer,
[00:42:02] Ezinma: Yeah, Dan's great.
[00:42:03] Michaela: Yeah.
Yeah, Anyways, Osei is like our window into, not to mention that Aaron worked on a film with him, but I'm always like, this seems so intense of like how quick it moves.
Cause he'll also call Aaron and be like, Hey, can you do this like drum recording for me real quick? I need it by like tonight. so How does that affect your. Ability to create. Does that motivate you? Does it make you feel less precious? Does it make you panic? So
[00:42:26] Ezinma: Yeah, I mean, I just love deadlines. I love the pressure, I love the, I need this now, you know, thrive and I, I don't, I really enjoy it. And with the strike, I do miss it. but it is not for everyone. I think there's a personality type that excels in that space and you know, you're just going to get a lot of your ideas axed and you're going to have to turn something around the next day.
And especially if you're working on, These animated films where there's tons of orchestration. It's a lot it's a very demanding field, but I think one that You know, you don't always get a lot of attention. It's a very behind the scenes space, but it's just really fun.
I just enjoy it. I also just love the process of ooh, we got the special effects and like, getting the new cuts and like seeing how things get better and improving, but you know, it's a lot of technical, and I mean like, technological things being able to make really good mock ups.
It's a lot feel lucky that I'm also a performer. I think to just be a film composer, that's not really something I'm interested in. But I do like how it works with performing.
[00:43:26] Aaron: of putting it I feel the same way With the writing for TV that I do because I do a lot of it, but when it exceeds 50% of what I'm doing, it becomes, soul sucking in a way. it's a really interesting and inspiring framework to work in. I like the pace. I like, that mindset.
But if that's all I'm doing, it feels, A little rote, a little mass produced in a way.
[00:43:51] Ezinma: What I love about performing is just immediate validation. You have immediate response to what you're doing. It's, you're getting it in real time and, you know, when I submit to directors, it's like, what are they going to approve it?
Like what's going to happen? Is this another rewrite? I feel like if anything, I have to be even more zen about, when I'm working on a, media project just because, who knows, all of my hard work might just be ax and like, the thing I did in 20 minutes might be like their favorite thing in the world.
So you just don't Oh, yeah.
Mm
[00:44:15] Aaron: hmm. Yeah.
[00:44:17] Michaela: Yeah. Well, I have one more question before we go. Just... It's been so cool to talk to you about and just having so many different artistic projects in your life sounds like they all feed each other and give space from the others. But what are some of the things?
Non musical non artistic things that you found in life that have been essential to you staying Centered grounded healthy.
[00:44:42] Aaron: And do
you
[00:44:46] Ezinma: I'm really into scuba diving. I'm a scuba Oh. Oh. that is something that I love because First of all, you can die, right? Like, you know, it's like, it's like, it's one of those things where you're like, my partner, he also scuba dives. So for instance, if we're having like a fight and then, as soon as we go into the ocean, you're at 130 feet and like, he's my buddy.
if
Mm hmm. Mm happens or my oxygen, he's there to save me and I'm there to save him. And it's just puts everything into perspective just to hmm. Mm have to breathe slowly because you can't suck through all your air. You have to be calm. You just kind of chill down there. And it's something that I have really found a lot of important symbolism, and leaning into that.
And, I'm getting certified for rescue and master diver. kind of like the highest you can be as a recreational diver. And it's, just so cool. And the gear and. It's sort of like the music world where, you know like, what are you using? And when I'm going
Mm hmm. Mm i, really enjoyed that.
I box a lot. I'm really into boxing and sparring. And I dislocated my shoulder earlier this year. So I had to like, take a break. My manager's like, please stop like doing this. but yeah, I really, I enjoy doing other things. And I think the way my brain is. I just constantly need.
To have a lot of things that I'm engaged in.
[00:46:00] Aaron: Yeah.
Mm hmm.
[00:46:00] Ezinma: Cause it keeps... It just keeps me balanced and happy.
[00:46:03] Aaron: Yeah. I have a couple scuba diving questions for you.
[00:46:06] Ezinma: Oh yeah, yeah,
[00:46:07] Aaron: Say you're sitting at your house and you're like, man, I want to dive. You can't just go and dive, right? Like, do you own a boat to dive? Do you dive from shore? Like,
[00:46:14] Ezinma: You can just drive and just shore dive.
[00:46:17] Aaron: like from a pier kind of thing or do You literally just walk off the beach and keep going?
[00:46:21] Ezinma: And it's so funny cause the people on the
[00:46:22] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:46:23] Ezinma: Yeah. Cool. And we're just gone, you know, we're just like, so we did a night dive, which was really fun. You could see like all the crabs and like baby octopus, octopi I guess is the plural.
it's just fun and we have our little squad and we just go diving.
[00:46:38] Aaron: Cool. Where's your dive spot? assume like you don't. go to Venice and walk out into the water. Maybe you do.
[00:46:44] Ezinma: So not so much Venice. Catalina Island. LA is cool because there's some really cool places. Catalina Island is great diving. The Channel Islands are also great diving and it's all like very close. Then there's also some really good spots. Just we're doing a beach cleanup in Santa Monica.
So that's really not going to be nice. That's going to just be like a lot of junk. But, just to help Mm hmm. and stuff like that. But yeah, there's just some like great places. Spots. I always go with a group It's just more fun that way and then you can all get beers afterwards.
[00:47:12] Aaron: Yeah, So I take it this is something you picked up in California. or did you pick up? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:47:19] Ezinma: this. I mean, you could do it in New York, but, yeah, it's gonna be really cold and I obviously didn't do this in Nebraska because
no,
[00:47:25] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:47:25] Ezinma: Options there.
[00:47:26] Aaron: Yeah. I can't imagine diving anywhere around New York, unless you had a few hours upstate and
[00:47:32] Michaela: well, They've had a bunch of Shark sightings this summer off of like Fort Tilden and stuff. So well
[00:47:38] Ezinma: you gotta be careful about.
[00:47:39] Michaela: Yeah, I love that what you said and the way that it could be a metaphor in life of just that you have to breathe slowly and can't through your oxygen, stay calm and all that stuff.
So very cool. Man, Thank you so much. You're fascinating. really excited to follow all of your endeavors for the rest of your life.
[00:47:58] Ezinma: Oh, thank you! Yeah, I mean, I can't wait to, I'll,
[00:48:02] Michaela: I was
[00:48:02] Aaron: like, how do I say this? Don't worry, that doesn't sound creepy at all. You're good.
[00:48:05] Ezinma: Thank you for that.
The same to you.
Okay. Thank you both so much. And,
[00:48:11] Aaron: Thank you.
All right. Yeah. Thank you so much.