This is a special live episode taped on stage at Mile of Music Festival in Appleton, WI featuring Jamie Kent - a Billboard charting singer songwriter, entrepreneur, arts advocate, and co-founder of Musicians for a Smoke Free Tennessee, where he worked as a lobbyist to usher through legislation that allows municipalities in TN to ban smoking in public places (such as bars and music venues). We talk about legislative action to aid musicians, coalition building as it relates to making an impact as well as a music career, and then we also take time for all three of us to answer questions from the audience in a really special first-time Q&A session.
This is a special live episode taped on stage at Mile of Music Festival in Appleton, WI featuring Jamie Kent - a Billboard charting singer songwriter, entrepreneur, arts advocate, and co-founder of Musicians for a Smoke Free Tennessee, where he worked as a lobbyist to usher through legislation that allows municipalities in TN to ban smoking in public places (such as bars and music venues). We talk about legislative action to aid musicians, coalition building as it relates to making an impact as well as a music career, and then we also take time for all three of us to answer questions from the audience in a really special first-time Q&A session.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss
[00:00:04] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne. And since this show is not even a year old, thank you for being an early listener. If you are returning, thank you for coming back. And if this is your first time listening, thank you for checking us out.
[00:00:17] Aaron: Yeah, for those of you that are returning listeners and know you already like the show, chances are you found out about us either via word of mouth or social media. So if you could just take a second and share an episode the same way you heard about it, it's a great way for us to get in front of new listeners.
And the more listeners we have, the more guests we can get. And the more guests we have, the more ideas we can share back with everybody.
[00:00:38] Michaela: Yeah, and we're not your typical music podcast. We are not trying to promote records or tours. We are wanting to talk to artists in their off cycle times the time when things aren't buzzing and super busy, and we focus on the behind the scenes tools and routines they've found helpful in staying inspired, creative, and sane while building a lifelong career around their art.
[00:01:01] Aaron: And as we all know, there is so much in this industry that is outside of our control. And so we wanted to focus on what is within our control. Our creativity, our actions, those things that we do behind the scenes that are usually outside of the public eye. And so with that in mind, We invited some of our friends and some of our favorite artists on and asked them the basic question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
And today's episode is a special audio only. It's because we recorded this episode live at the end of 10 weeks of traveling during the mile of music fest in Appleton, Wisconsin. Yeah, which was
[00:01:40] Michaela: really fun. I have to say, we had no idea how it was going to go.
And it was pretty comical because quite a few people showed up thinking that they were going to see a music performance and had varying, responses to the fact that they were actually going to sit and listen to us talk. I think. Some elderly ladies left and said, we've only got a finite amount of time left on this earth.
We want to listen to music, not talking,
[00:02:01] Aaron: I love it,
[00:02:04] Michaela: but it was really incredible. The people we did have an incredible audience and got to open it up at the end Q and a,
[00:02:09] Aaron: we also talk a lot about, how municipalities such as Appleton, Wisconsin that has this festival can do so much to foster art. To foster creativity and to create outlets for that in the name of their community, and how that benefits not just the artists, but the community, the culture in the community, and how that can really create pretty amazing feedback loop.
So like we said, this conversation was recorded live becomes a little meta. As we just said, this show is about all the times that we as musicians are not on stage, and we fully had this conversation on stage in front of a live audience. The sound quality will be a little bit different than what you're used to in our podcast, but hopefully you'll get a sense of the energy in the room and really enjoy our conversation with Jamie Kent.
today's guest, I had to make a list because he's so prolific. He is a singer songwriter. He's had a record on the Billboard Country Charts. He founded, New Nashville Live and has a really successful showcase every year at South by Southwest. He is the founder of Band Ambassador Media Group.
He started, People Supporting Artists, which was something that Jamie and I did. Very early in the pandemic. As soon as we heard that South by Southwest was going to get cancelled, we're like, man, this is really going to hurt a lot of artists. And so we schemed up a kind of throwback telethon and raise money for music cares to support artists.
We ended up raising I think it was 17, 000. Something like that, yeah. and. He has maybe the most interesting, pandemic career pivot, where he, joined with Smoke Free Cities of America and started Musicians for a Smoke Free Tennessee, and helped usher through legislation to bring Tennessee into the 21st century and allow municipalities to ban smoking in public places, because it's really hard as Going even further, he's on the board of the Nashville Arts and Business Council. Nashville Lifestyles Magazine named him one of the 25 most fascinating people in 2020. Did all you Jamie
[00:04:03] Michaela: Kent fans know these things about Jamie?
[00:04:05] Aaron: So what you guys do know is that he's kind of the unofficial mayor of College Avenue, especially this weekend during Mile of Music Fest. So,
Jamie Kent, everybody.
[00:04:16] Jamie: to note that the year I was named Most Fascinating was the year they took off from Most Beautiful.
[00:04:24] Michaela: Oh, man. Okay. So for anybody who is confused of why you're here, this is the first ever live podcast taping at Mile of Music.
So we're going to have a conversation and at the end we're also for the first time going to open it up for questions so you guys can be a part of this conversation. Also we kind of balance each other as hosts because I always want to talk about the deeply personal stuff because that informs everything.
So also Jamie became a father in the last year and a half. Otis is... Fifteen months. Yeah. And we've known each other for almost 10 years at this point. We met because we both opened for Brandy Clark in separate cities, back to back. But we met Brandy's guitar player and he introduced us and introduced us to so many people in Nashville.
And now we're family friends.
[00:05:18] Jamie: Kind of crazy.
[00:05:19] Aaron: Yeah. Michaela mentioned she likes to talk about the personal emotional stuff and I like to just get down to the nitty gritty like tools like, hey, what do you actually do? So we figured we'd start there. For everybody that's going to be listening to this later, Mile of Music is a four day festival.
There are, I don't know, the count, maybe 50 bands here. And every artist plays like three or four shows over the time of being here. And then, if you're the mayor of Appleton for the weekend like Jamie is, you also are doing early morning podcast interviews. You're doing radio shows. You're guesting on a ton of sets.
golfing. You're golfing. So I just wanted to start with like, how do you do it? You've been here for a bunch of years, so what's your secret to like, keeping it going?
[00:05:59] Jamie: I've been blessed to have a different battery than some folks, I think. And I feed off of other people's energy. And I've been this way since I was a young child. I'm an only child, probably a bit attention starved. And uh, that's probably why I became an entertainer. Cause just to say, Hey, look at me uh, started with mischievous acts when I was younger.
And. eventually got a bit responsible, but I've always love, to keep busy and I don't like having free time. so yeah I think that, the key for me has always been to, work really hard and then rest really hard.
And make sure I give myself that time to not talk to anybody, to clear my head, to recharge, so that I can then go and be on 100% and, be in the moment and present and soaking up those things, cause they're so different and fun and exciting for me that, it's easy to like, constantly be thinking about the next thing.
then you've missed the thing that you were just doing, and so, really trying to be present with the things as they're happening and appreciative of them. that's the best way I can describe it. Do
[00:07:07] Michaela: you have to build that into a weekend like this? Do you have to go take an hour or whatever?
Or do you just charge through this weekend and then do that at home? No,
[00:07:14] Jamie: generally I spend one hour a day in my underwear watching SportsCenter to not think about anything else. Yeah. And then come back out and put the clothes back on. Alright, let's go do this.
[00:07:24] Aaron: Yeah, I think that's really important.
That's something that both Mikhail and I have learned over the years. It's it's okay to go to your room and pull the curtains shut and sit there in the middle of the day for a few minutes just to like, re centered.
[00:07:36] Jamie: Yeah, if you're not taking care of yourself, it's hard to then... Put that energy back out to everyone else and take care of them or just, give the energy that people come to expect of you in that way too.
[00:07:46] Michaela: Have you felt your kind of like pace of being able to do this stuff change over the years? And also you did spend a long time touring heavily and your, pandemic and then since pandemic you've really scaled back on touring. Was that intentional?
[00:08:02] Jamie: Yeah, it was. To me it was always, I've tried to be really honest with myself and do periodic gut checks every six months along the career really trying to define what success means to me or, what check boxes I'm trying to hit in my career and I felt like I had hit a bunch of the things that I really wanted those things, while they've Externally charting on the billboards might feel like you've made it, realistically it's like I'm not on a bus or anything I'm still in a van.
It's still grueling. that's when you sort of like, okay What is success and where am I reaching it? And to me I started defining it as what's my impact? like on other people and about Half of my shows had significant impact like these experiences here at Miley music and the other half were bar gigs to pay the mortgage.
And those didn't, I feel like, have a ton of impact, but they impacted my ability to settle down and raise a family or do other things that I wanted to do. And so that's when I started consciously pulling back those things and launched my other business. And as that, grew, I was able to pick and choose and really go out and do the things that, I felt like had the highest impact and filled my cup in that way.
[00:09:15] Aaron: Yeah, I love all that. I talked to people a lot about the 80 20 principle, which I don't know if you're aware of that, but specifically, yeah. So for those of you who don't know it's basically a system of prioritization it's this theory that, 80% of outcomes come from 20% of your effort. it takes a lot of, doing a check on everything that's going on and all of these outputs that you have in your life and really tracking the progress of like what has the biggest input. the theory is if you focus on those 20% of things, you'll get the same outcome, if not more, because you'll have more energy to put into that.
And so that's what I hear you
[00:09:49] Jamie: saying here, which absolutely. And I think I got to a point to that. Maybe it goes similarly into my desire to always be craving new and different experiences. But I felt like I was musically living the same experiences over and over again. And I was personally ready for new challenges And these things that are a different chapter of life that I felt like I was missing emotionally in one of those things.
I think that was another conscious decision there.
[00:10:18] Michaela: Can you share what your idea of success is right now? And then what your idea of success was maybe when you were 25?
[00:10:27] Jamie: my idea of success right now is like impact on my community and I think consider my community where I live, where I'm from, and like my group of fans that have been part of this journey as well.
that's my number one thing, kinda am I impacting and making the world a better place or making people's lives better in some way. Spreading joy in some way. When I was first starting, it was definitely like, I want to be the next Bruce Springsteen and be on a bus and play giant crowds.
And like, that was it. And you find like you, hit these things and you're like, Oh, did this thing I set out for. And it didn't necessarily rocket ship my career up. And then once you get behind the curtain and you're like, Oh, you know, sometimes, people just get lucky.
And it takes 10 years to get lucky. band Lake Street Dive is like a great example of one of the greatest bands out there. And they were playing small bars for years and years. And then it got one viral video, but they were ready. It was like the long road to overnight, and it's hard to Plan a career that way so you got to make sure you're happy and doing the things that you love and if that Happens great, you're working hard and when hard work meets opportunity, you're ready for it But especially now more than ever Success for people's through tick tock and Spotify streams and To me, I'm like I can't spend four to five hours a day focusing on that.
I will be an unhappy human. So I'm just going to focus on the parts of the music industry that bring me joy and allow me to spread joy. And that's probably not in the cards for me, but I can still feel fulfilled and successful by coming out, a handful of times a year playing shows. Still creating music, still releasing music, still writing with people and then have an impact by using my voice as an artist in different ways to hopefully help fellow artists in my community that way.
[00:12:14] Michaela: in a lot of these conversations, there's like a shift that I think happens for a lot of artists as you get older transitioning between this quantifiable, judgment of success, and I feel like that's harder than ever today because we have all these seemingly usable metrics Spotify, all our streaming numbers, our social media numbers, and we think those things tell us what we want to do.
Who's successful? And like you said, as you get further along, you start to realize, Oh, there's a lot of stuff that can be fabricated, and a lot of stuff, I start to notice that friends on all levels have the same feelings. If they've got a hundred thousand, Instagram followers and are selling 500 tickets a night, it doesn't feel like enough because now it's about the next level.
and it's the same for people who are selling 30 tickets a night and have 10, 000 followers and it's that like transition of, and I think this pertains to life in general, of starting to shift towards what does it feel like versus how do I judge or how are other people judging. If this is a value by some number system.
Yeah.
[00:13:18] Jamie: I think it, it takes a painful amount of self awareness to, have those gut checks and like really figure out why you're doing this or why you're playing music. Because often times at the root of it, it's ego. And when you get down to that, you're like, Oh man, am I harming family or friends by just doing something that's really self serving?
Are we all narcissists? Right, right. And so I think that's like if you can, At least for me, trying to pivot into like, what I'm doing making... Other people's lives better is a song impacting one person in some way why I'm doing it and it doesn't matter if it's a hundred thousand people as long as it impacts that one person
[00:13:57] Aaron: You know
One thing that I really admire is seeing you over the last few years shift that towards a more broader approach, both with people supporting artists we started with there.
And then of course smoke free Tennessee. And now you're on the national arts and business council. And I just want to hear your take on, how organizations like that, how communities, how governments, Can support artists
[00:14:19] Jamie: Yep, whether it's business or government, I think art and music are things that make our communities better. They make our kids smarter. There's like science that if kids get into music at a young age, they do better at math and science. And but oftentimes it's an afterthought, right? It's STEM and it's missing arts, right?
So like, make it STEAM. there are ways you can... Do it and there are great case studies, you know, countries, Canada has an amazing program that it funds and supports musicians to go record and tour. remember encountering them on multiple occasions and being super jealous because these musicians were flying everywhere.
And we were the same level. I'm like, how do you guys afford to do that? Oh, the government of Canada gives us a grant. I'm like, what? Dang. that's been a big thing that I have been speaking about and championing over the last couple of years in Nashville. We are Music City.
We own the trademark of Music City. our industry generates like 16 billion dollars a year in economic, impact for the city. But there are none of those support systems for the creative community. We have the highest concentration of musicians in the country living in Nashville. But we have none of those grants.
it's like, Oh, you're lucky to be here good luck. And there's lots of gigs. So enjoy those gigs. Hope you get your number one. Right. Right. and so, that's been something that I think is a big opportunity to change. And I think that there's an appetite for change at the local and state level, but it requires musicians.
being persistent, organized, thoughtful, and strategic in what we demand and ask for. And often times we are not. will often see a musician take to Twitter angrily about a cause, and then the next week they're back on the road and you forget about it. to pass legislation to change people's lives.
Usually takes a couple years and it takes, tons of emails and meetings and persistence and not going away, and demanding a, very specific thing that you want changed. And so that's, an opportunity for us as creatives even this recent Nashville election for the mayor, I trying to highlight for people that, hey, there's 100, 000 of us that live in Nashville.
And 100, 000 people voted in the last mayoral election. So we could elect the mayor if we are organized and they're supporting creatives. We're not organized yet, so we didn't. But that's the kind of thing we can build towards, and ask give people specific things. Cause, Especially when it comes to city government.
everyone supports the arts and wants to support the arts, but you have to make it easy and clear for them to do so. a lot of times you got to do the work for it and say, Hey, this is what we need. here's this one page of legislation that's going to enable you to do it. All you have to do is say yes.
And then suddenly it's like, Oh, if I say no, I don't support musicians. that's a, makes things easier. But you got to do the hard work first.
[00:17:03] Aaron: Yeah. I think one thing not being in the trenches and working with, legislation, all that is that there's this misconception.
And because arts, music actors and film and screen, there's this really strong disconnect between people that are massive and in the public consciousness such as Taylor Swift or, Ryan Gosling or anything like that where everybody's like, why do these people need support? They're massive.
They're making millions of dollars. They have this huge house. When I saw the statistic in relation to the Actors and Writers Guild strike, in that I think the cutoff is 26, 000 a year. If you make more than 26, 000 a year than the Actors Guild. insurance and it's something like 80% of actors do not meet that threshold.
So the people that are striking, it's not Angelina Jolie that is striking right now because she's not getting paid. It's the millions of other actors that are there that are working day in and day out and not getting any money and getting presented with facts of Hey, yeah, why don't we just come?
We're going to pay you for one day of work and we're going to scan your body image and then we're going to use AI to use you as an extra for eternity. And we have the rights to that. And people are in a position where they're like, I need to pay rent, so I guess that doesn't sound so bad. And there's the equivalent of that in the music industry.
you're not going to put on Instagram Cool, pulled into Tucson tonight and nobody told anybody that we're going to be here. we drove 900 miles and we have a 400 mile drive tomorrow, but it's cool.
It's a very working class profession. To say the least. The working is there, money not necessarily And so I think it's really raising the public consciousness of majority of the musicians are barely getting by and like we're out here because we're fueled by passion We're fueled by all of that and like we generally need this support.
episode that just came out this past week was episode 25 and it was with a singer songwriter named Kaya Cater Who is a great? writer and banjo player from Canada And we talked a lot about grants, and I think, being an American, there's this misconception about grants and federal money on being, you know, if you get these handouts, then you're going to be lazy, you're not going to work so much.
And she very explicitly said it's the exact opposite. It gives you the time to sit and focus on your craft and really, have the headspace to create. It's a conversation we've had a lot of times on this show where there's a really big disconnect between the amount of effort that goes into writing a song, recording a song, putting out a song, and then you multiply that by 10 to 12 for a record.
we were talking with B. J. Barham from American Aquarium, and he had the great analogy of a cabinet maker. Nobody's going to buy your first set of cabinets, but you're going to keep getting better, and you're going to keep getting better, and they're going to pay for that.
That's... massive amount of time and investment that takes to do that. And for some reason that's expected when you see craftsmen like woodworkers and all of that. People don't want to pay 99 cents for a song. So a, it's a big disconnect
[00:19:44] Jamie: there. Well, I think that it's important to highlight as we sit here at mile of music that there are places that are breaking that mold and recognizing that and supporting them And they're really successful.
And Miley Music and Appleton are one of those places, and that's a reason that artists flock here and come here. The Appleton Community Music, the fund there that supports and brings artists and puts us up for the weekend and feeds us. Those are things And also,
[00:20:10] Michaela: want to highlight, offers massages, haircuts.
hearing checks, molds, like what Mile of Music does for musicians is really incredible and what the community of fans who come here, it really highlights the value of also local and regional artists, because I think that can be the disconnect of working class musicians who are not, Taylor Swift's, are we needed?
Because we have access to all this music, to catalogs of our, major, pop artists that we love, so why do we need small, local, regional, acts who are, lower middle class, playing small clubs, I think challenge is understanding that it's ecosystem, that the bottom really needs support as well, and that connecting the dots of how valuable music is, like you said, all the science behind showing how helpful it is for developmental stuff for children, but also for aging people.
There's so much information about how, people with dementia and Alzheimer's, the last thing they forget are songs. You play someone a song who has late stage Alzheimer's and they've forgotten the names of their family members, but they can recall every word of their favorite song from their teenage years.
helping brain recovery. My mom's recovering from a stroke and I just got her started in voice lessons and all of the help that music does for your brain. I think we can forget, and not see the value of it in our everyday lives of wanting to hear it from our local musicians as well, and how to build infrastructure so that we all can live.
So, you know, Nobody's trying to be millionaires here. Yeah.
[00:21:50] Jamie: I think like you said, the ecosystem is so it's really spot on too, because, We need y'all, just like you need us. together we create this experience. And, maybe it's just something in the Kurds that makes Appleton special and that creates this thing.
But I'd like to think that there are people that, feel this way across the country and that see Mile of Music as an inspiration for what they can do in their community similarly. But, it takes a lot of work, too. You get back to whether it's passing legislation or making an album. you gotta really want it, and the community has to want it.
And that's the thing that I've always been inspired by here, is the buy in on every level of the community into something like this that's required. And then because of that, the artists buy into it even more, and it just... ecosystem feeds itself and gets stronger and better and more inspiring and hopefully then can get recreated elsewhere.
[00:22:41] Michaela: Yeah, because also something like mile and music is a great example of, it's not just something that makes people feel good. It also helps the Appleton economy, the local businesses. It's affecting everything in a really positive way and also a quantifiable data driven way.
[00:22:57] Jamie: Yep, yep, exactly.
[00:22:58] Michaela: So what do you think at, talking about how to get.
people organizing musicians. I think there's often a lot of especially, lower level musicians, a hard time getting musicians themselves to see their value, to be able to impact positive change before they might have a huge platform. how have you had that drive of doesn't matter how many fans I have out there.
I have a voice and I'm going to use it and I can impact change. And how do you feel like you can convince other people?
[00:23:28] Jamie: I've always just been a sort of solution oriented person. I think it can drive people around me nuts sometimes where, sometimes you just want to be heard and listened to and I'm like, yeah, but here's how you can fix it.
[00:23:40] Michaela: How does your wife like that?
[00:23:43] Jamie: For sure.
But I think you have to... you have to know that everybody is busy and everybody is overwhelmed with the world and life sometimes. And you have to make it easy for people. And I think one of the things that I was able to take from, building a career as an independent artist, and then just transferring that to politics or advocacy, is this thing called coalition building.
whether you're building a fan base or building a coalition, it's really the same thing and it's, I consider like they're spheres of engagement. And you can't have the same expectation of everybody. But you have to be welcoming to all and give everyone an opportunity to be involved depending on their availability and interest and passion.
the first sphere is this big wide one and musically maybe that's a single that you put out there. And hopefully it attracts people and gives them an opportunity like what you do, if it's advocacy, it's hey, this is our cause, this is our goal. All we need from you is to sign this petition.
and then we're going to keep you in the loop on next steps and ways you can get involved. First sphere. Okay, next sphere, the people that buy tickets to shows, buy merch. They're, you know, the next level of fan. If you pivot it to advocacy, it's someone that shows up to their weekly meeting and someone that's willing to write an email to their council member or their state legislature and go just a little bit farther because they're really passionate about it and they want to experience it and be a part of that.
show or that win or that movement together. And then the, final one is that internal sphere of, people like in music the, super fans the indie music angels, one of them's in the crowd, the peace man, right? The people that are supporting folks a level that goes way beyond, but you can't expect that of everybody because not everybody necessarily has that passion or that time or, shares that thing, right?
Or in advocacy, it's the folks that are. Going to the Capitol Hill and protesting or knocking on doors to get people to vote and show up for something. That's that level. And all three are needed in order to build a movement. And you have to be welcoming to all of them or to build a fan base, whatever it is, and create a space for everybody.
But then give them the opportunity to get more involved and to get more invested in it because then that's just going to make it bigger and stronger. I think,
[00:26:05] Aaron: agree fully. And I see that in action. first impression is like, wow, that's a really big funnel of action.
If somebody is out there listening and wanting to start this community, process, in a town that doesn't have that, is that something that you need to have outlined from the start? Or is it where you can start on the outside of the onion and work your way in as people get more involved?
You
[00:26:25] Jamie: know, I think a really wise mentor of mine one time said, Anything really, but he was applying it to being an entrepreneur in a business person. And he was like, if you ask for money, you get advice. If you ask for advice, you can end up with money. And I think that is something that you can apply to. This is like, if you have an idea and you want to make change, look around because there are, chances are someone is doing it somewhere else successfully and they're willing to help you get off the ground. My door and email are always open if someone wants to make their community smoke free. Hey, I got the playbook. I'm happy to share it with you. Mile of Music, have a feeling if someone else was like in another community on the west coast was like, Hey, we want to recreate what you've done.
I'm sure that Dave and Ian and them would open up the playbook and help them with the first three steps to do it. And so don't be afraid to ask for advice because people that are out there doing it want to see other people doing it too. And generally have done a lot of work and outlined plans and pitch decks and all those things.
And, lot of people did that for me. And I consider that paying it forward and want to turn around and help the next person up and do the same thing.
[00:27:32] Michaela: Do you have days or times when you get discouraged by music career stuff as well as government lobbying advocacy stuff, separately together, and if you do, what do you do?
[00:27:46] Jamie: That's a great question. there are certainly days that are discouraging, with anything, right? But you gotta know that that's a, balance of life and the balance of things and you gotta have those in order to appreciate the good ones. For me personally, outdoor time is when I can get centered again and, It's time with my son.
Things that like bring you back you can get so down a wormhole of what's the most important thing in the world and oh there weren't enough people at that show, and oh I can't believe it my career's over, or oh this legislator told me no and I could have sworn he was gonna be a yes vote.
Ultimately. What really matters most is your family and the beauty around us. And like, if you can come back to center on those things, that's the most important thing. Everything else is great and inspires you and keeps you going. If it doesn't happen, that's okay.
There's another thing. and I think it's different for everybody,
[00:28:38] Michaela: I think zooming out can be really hard because it's a weird balance because you want to feel like you're in the now and you don't want to be anxious about your past or your future or whatever, but then it's also really challenging to remember that But the now will pass.
And the now, maybe you play like the worst show of your life, but your career is not going to end. And I always have to try and remind myself that a few years from now, I probably won't remember this show. Or maybe I will because it's so monstrously bad. I just ran into somebody upstairs who was like, Hey, we played a show together like six years ago in Denver at the High Dive.
And I was like. Oh, was that the epically horrible show on a Tuesday night that I was in tears when I walked off the
[00:29:19] Aaron: stage? This is one of those shows where you drive hours and you're like, Oh cool, nobody told anybody that we're gonna be here. This is great. But you know
[00:29:26] Michaela: what?
I've played a million...
great shows since then and have had some incredible experiences that if I had let that one bad show make me feel like this was determining my value, my career and my trajectory, I would miss out on a lot of incredible stuff. But it's really hard to remember that and keep a sense of humor.
[00:29:46] Jamie: You guys mentioned it earlier and almost can't believe that I'm gonna make this metaphor right now but I feel like golf is A perfect example of this and strange amount of musicians play golf. And now I'm starting to wonder if this is sort of why you can be the best golfer one day and then the absolute worst golfer the next day.
And have no idea why. And you just got to be, you know what? I'm out here. It's beautiful. Let's just be mindful and have fun with some friends. That's what it's about. Cause otherwise there's going to be the worst shots and the best shots. And sometimes it's way you're standing and you didn't even realize but it causes you to be mindful of these little nuances that can.
Ruin your day or make your the greatest day. But in the end, you're going to have both of those things. They're always going to happen. And if you can steady the course and just try to enjoy them for what they are, feeling something is better than feeling nothing, even if
[00:30:40] Michaela: you're walking off stage in
[00:30:41] Jamie: tears. I think so because then when you when you come to my music and you play to a full stage you're like, oh, yeah This is why I do it. This is it But if you didn't have that awful one as comparison, then you'd start to get like all this is you just have that expectation That's
[00:30:55] Aaron: crazy. No, I mean, it's it's full on. I'm a horrible golfer. Luckily. I'm a musician and producer than I am as a golfer because I probably wouldn't be sitting on the stage otherwise. But my minimal understanding of golf is it so comparable where, you do X, Y, and Z in your swing and in your preparation and that's in your control.
But as soon as you hit the ball, who knows, all of you that actually play golf are like, man, this guy really knows nothing about golf. But that's what it's like for me, and I can totally see that. And, Again, that's like a strong basis for why we wanted to start this and have these conversations is that.
The majority of the music industry is completely out of your control. We can't make people show up in the room. We can't make people buy our records. the thing that we can do, what is within our control is our creativity, our inspiration and the art that we make and the art that we put out there.
one common thread through all of these conversations is the more that you focus on that, on your art and what you're putting out and your intention behind that, the more successful you can be because that is in your control. in any situation when you feel like you're outside of your control, it's a really nerve wracking, anxiety inducing situation.
Yeah, and
[00:32:02] Jamie: I think in a time when there are a hundred thousand plus songs being uploaded a day to Spotify, focusing on writing the best song and producing the best song you possibly can, That's probably your best chance at finding that success too is going back to the beginning and, how are you going to distinguish yourself from the masses?
Great songs generally find their way to a place, whether it's live or an album or someone's heart. And I think that gets back to impacting people and why we write songs to begin with. Whether it's therapy for ourselves or therapy for someone else in some way. you do that and then it just starts to spread.
[00:32:38] Aaron: Yeah. And going back to, as we were talking about that earlier in the community and the snowballing effect, when we had Mark Arelli on our show, he had a friend who is, going to botch this. It's in the episode. You should go listen to it. It's really great. But his friend is a. Professor, I think, at Boston College, and he came up to Mark after a show, and he's like, man, you really did your job at holding up your end of the ritual.
And Mark's what are you talking about? He's like, for basically the entirety of human existence, there's this ritual between the performer and the listener. it's a two way street, us as performers, we're on stage and we're delivering these songs, maybe, way back thousands of years ago, it's sitting around a fire it's a way that history is passed down orally, this is what our people have done.
But over time, it's become this ritual where performer shows up and they do things, but then also the audience shows up. And they're there to receive, to listen, to engage. And, you know, I have to note especially with a place like Appleton like this the ritual's really strong here.
And you have people that show up, and there's great shows that happen here. There's special collaborations, especially this weekend, that happen. But I don't think that can happen in a place where you guys as an audience don't show up and you're engaged and you're engaged for the other 360 days of the year as well.
from this side of the microphone have to just, hold that up and just say that's really special. Can't be denied as why, something like this is able to happen.
[00:33:56] Michaela: Yeah. I think in all of these conversations with artists on all different, times in their career ages, what progressively becomes stronger and stronger for everybody is the value of community, not only with other musicians, but with. And really focusing on that rather than, okay, am I on the billboard charter? Am I, how many streams do I have? But even just that one on one, maybe there were only 20 people at your show, but that one person that comes up and says, I've listened to your record every year, and that relationship of nurturing the musician fan relationship That's what's going to sustain you for life and going to allow you to play songs for the rest of your life.
So we also want to say thank you to you all who are here and listening to this conversation, even if you thought we were going to be singing songs.
[00:34:49] Aaron: but with that,
[00:34:49] Michaela: I feel like as a musician, who is a new mother. I have a two year old. Jamie's little boy is a little bit younger than ours, but I feel like I spent years going through touring life and really thinking, how do you have a family and do this?
This is impossible. Children are, like, hidden. We don't talk about it. It's mostly dads out here, no moms. So I just wanted to ask you, how do you feel like becoming a father has impacted your artistry and creativity in life?
[00:35:17] Jamie: I'm still figuring that out, to be honest, because it's still so fresh and new, and every week and month is completely different with him and it's incredible.
I think it's really brought me back to the center of what's important, and... What inspires me and what inspires songs, I think for many years, I was always just listening to conversations of what people were saying and finding lyrical nuggets that way and being very observational and with Otis, it's like coming back to like, the simplest thing Oh yeah, that is really cool.
Like, Look at that branch up there and it's caused me to be more mindful. exhausted. So my ideas are probably a little more loopy too. But I haven't I've toured a lot with him, so I don't think I can speak yet but I will say that it's reminded me of the importance of music in someone's life.
For the first six months, I played him a morning medley and an evening medley, and... There would be a song of mine in there, but then it was a lot of, just classic, timeless songs that you're like, I hadn't played or thought about since I was a kid. And you're like, oh yeah, this is just bringing this human joy, and probably changing the way he thinks in ways that I don't even know about.
And that's fundamentally, again, the importance of music, and the importance of lucky to have learned to play music, and can give this to my son. And ultimately, at this point in my life, that means more than anything else.
[00:36:38] Michaela: That's awesome. Does he still like to listen to you sing?
[00:36:41] Jamie: He does, but he just started walking.
and is also kind of a little madman. so I start playing generally, and he's like, gets really excited, runs over, and then just puts his hands on the guitar. Yeah. And the sound stops.
[00:36:55] Michaela: Georgia now says, Mama, no. She used to love it, and now she's like, Mom, no.
[00:37:02] Aaron: Dad. It wants to hear me sing, which is horrible.
Yeah, that's
[00:37:06] Jamie: awesome. Otis is also obsessed with Miss Rachel. Oh yeah. She came about middle of the pandemic on YouTube, like the most lo fi children's stuff. She
[00:37:18] Michaela: makes it in her one bedroom apartment in New York
[00:37:20] Jamie: City. Yeah, and it's like with a green screen. I think her child was developmentally delayed with speech, and so she wrote some songs to help him learn to talk.
And, every parent our age is Oh my god, Miss Rachel she saves our lives. She's the
[00:37:34] Aaron: best babysitter there is.
[00:37:36] Michaela: Except, Except our child is like an addict. she doesn't watch it that much, but she learns so much. She sings all the Rachel songs, to get herself to go to sleep. It's really amazing. Yeah,
[00:37:45] Aaron: we'll put her to bed and we'll just hear her like talking from the other room. We listen in on the monitor and she's just straight up singing songs. Sticky,
[00:37:50] Michaela: sticky sticky, sticky bubblegum.
[00:37:53] Aaron: Yeah, she is the reason why we're going to be able to do this 11 hour drive home to Nashville tomorrow without really much delay.
[00:38:00] Michaela: Okay, well we would love, if any of you have questions, we'd love if you would speak into the microphone,
[00:38:05] Aaron: Yeah, if you wouldn't mind, we're gonna do this city council style, so if you'll come up here, we got a microphone over here now that's on board.
[00:38:11] Jamie: Please let us know your address and district before...
[00:38:15] Q&A: Good morning. Good morning. The idea I had, you stimulated some conversation about the musicians not getting compensated on a regular basis. What about the thought of, I'm not saying you go union, but something, using the example of the Mile of Music, South by Southwest, the big shows that attract and greatly impact the local arena.
Good luck getting a room tonight if you just rolled into Appleton. It ain't gonna happen. Somebody's benefiting from that. Ask for a 1% of the take. Or something to that effect.
[00:38:50] Jamie: It's interesting, and for sure, I think that the tough part in the music industry is there are a hundred thousand songs a day being uploaded, right?
So there are, the supply and demand is like there's always someone behind you To do it for free. To do it for free. And that's really, it makes it really hard to negotiate sometimes. So you really have to be organized. The union, like you said, is, that's one of the best chances of making it happen.
Oftentimes the union folks are only organized around a couple of issues. an interesting thing that I've found with the music world is that they tend to be really organized when it comes to things that impact the pocketbook or checkbook, but not their lives. they don't understand that it does both.
So like, there's a strong presence at the federal level to try to get royalty rates better. But the songwriters association won't engage on a local issue because they're like, Oh, we've only got this one, bullet that we can spend on this one issue. So that's one of the tricks where you got to navigate and figure out actually happening in Austin right now.
It's South by Southwest Austin
[00:39:50] Q&A: or Nashville, even using the example, not everything is money, find out what an artist. What if they built a free recording studio in Appleton due to the proceeds from Miracle Mile? And local artists, or anyone, when they're here for a period, reserves it and gets a free demo Whatever that might be, whatever floats your boat, find it and campaign it, is my
[00:40:12] Michaela: suggestion. I will say Mile of Music pays all the bands and artists that play like an actual festival, so everybody, a fee. Something like South by Southwest or even Americana Fest that does very similar things for the cities.
they pay 150 and there is a union that was just formed recently, that's working to advocate for all of these things and I'm working in Austin because Austin greatly benefits. And artists are coming for free or only 150. And the amount of money that bands spend because everyone wants this chance and wants to play, but it is starting to happen, but you're exactly right.
And you know A lot of bigger venues will take merch cuts from bands where they at the end of the night say, okay Now you have to give us 10 15% of what you sold and there's a lot of bands now publicly speaking out about this Barham from American Aquarium he puts out a sign every single night telling people whether or not the venue is taking a merch cut and It's really interesting because just him deciding to speak out when you're on a lower level, you think, Oh, I can't say anything because the venue won't want me back.
I'll cause a ruckus, then nobody, I won't get a gig. But it's when people like BJ have a little bit more power. And really advocate for things like that because his argument is, I'm the reason people are coming to this venue. I'm not getting a percentage of the alcohol sales and I'm helping you.
So why should you get a percentage of my merchandise? again, the premise of this podcast is to bring to light a lot of these things that people don't know about and don't talk about. Yes. It's a great
[00:41:46] Jamie: segue into, can you just talk a little bit more about Appleton community music and that it is a nonprofit and always accepting donations to help their
[00:41:53] Aaron: artists.
[00:41:54] Jamie: Yes, absolutely. That's the brilliance of mile they have created this arm to specifically support us and bringing us here and paying us fairly and putting us up at hotels and, forever, it was just coming from mile and their willingness to do that. But now they have. This 501c3, so you can do it and you can write it off.
Look at that it's per written, they got the little dip machine, so just Put that credit card in there. Dip
[00:42:19] Aaron: away. Yeah, I grew up in Maine in a small town called Waterville, and we have, a film festival in town, that brings people from all over the world now, and they operate same way.
There's a the Maine Film Center, which is a non profit organization that is able to get behind this. And, where I grew up, it's a former mill town. There was a paper mill in town until I was about... And that shut down and the town basically just cratered after that. And there's a college in the town, but it's nothing like Florence.
It's a much smaller school. And they've actually started to buy up. buildings downtown and try to help spur revitalization, just to be able to have a town to attract students and to attract faculty. the beacon that started that was this film festival and was this non profit organization that was able to raise money to support these actors and these artists to come through town.
It's a rare thing to have something like that, and you guys are really lucky to have non profit like that here to be able to provide, culture and community and a space for that.
[00:43:19] Michaela: Any other questions?
[00:43:21] Q&A: You spoke about the ritual. I want to go back to that part of it, please, to be on the receiving end of it. Is it enough for you to know that you delivered this message and your audience is engaged?
[00:43:32] Aaron: This is our third festival,
[00:43:33] Q&A: This one has been different for me personally, and there's been artists who have affected me to the point where it's going to change my life.
And is it enough for you to deliver the message?
And do you ever find out
[00:43:47] Aaron: impacted someone?
[00:43:48] Jamie: I do think it's enough and it's the reason I think most of us come out here, I've always thought about it like two tanks that you got that Keep the the engine running for music and one is unfortunately financial just is this doable?
Can I support it sustainably and the other is the filling your soul tank and the empty venues drain it and the Milo musics fill it and I think we leave with our hearts and tanks full and and are reaffirmed As to why we do this because of stories like that.
[00:44:17] Michaela: I Will say also I think the more life you experience at least for me the older I get The more I experienced, the more I believe in the absolute importance of art and sharing songs and stories and words as more important than anything else in a lot of ways, because the last few years.
The pandemic was so life changing for so many of us. It's on different levels. In our personal life, I became a mother. My mom had a massive stroke when I was five months pregnant. I experienced all this loss and life changing stuff for the first time in my life, really. And it really made me rethink do I want to try and have this music career?
And what's happened is I'm less interested in the career stuff of the game of it, but a lot more interested in the music and in the point of it. And like Jamie said, don't know. So if I'm playing to five people, I might feel, man, that's rough. I wish the room was fuller. But if those five people, or even if one person in that room, says, man, that line in your song, that made me feel less alone, or I had an experience like that, to me, that's what keeps me going, and I think of my role now, as a songwriter and a storyteller and a performer, as not being someone who's going around saying, look at me, and let me talk to you.
But, I'm going around, Giving invitations to others to feel permission to feel vulnerable and to share in return because I wholeheartedly believe that life is really hard for everybody at different times and the only way to get through it is to understand that never alone in our experiences.
And I think art has an incredible way to do that and to teach empathy and expand empathy. I don't know any other medium that can do that in the same way.
[00:46:08] Q&A: thank you for being here. Me too. I only learned of the podcast this morning when I was putting my schedule together for today. And I love the premise of it. This idea of being real and authentic and finding out more about the artist.
So my question is about authenticity.
Sometimes when you're more public facing, there can be sort of this pressure to be on all the time. So maybe speak a little bit to how you maintain authenticity Sorry, I'm super nervous. Um, in
[00:46:40] Michaela: like, Public space.
So for me, a culture that just values youth so much. I'm 37 years old and I've, found it really interesting of just how much more comfortable And how much better, in some ways, life gets the older you get.
And as a woman, I think it's interesting because I still have those internalized messages of well you're getting older, and especially because you have a music career age is, it's a negative. which feels so contradictory to what the truth is because the older you get, the more experiences you have, the more you know yourself, the better art you can make because you have more to say, more to draw from.
And for me, being authentic in public has gotten so much easier because I think I've just fully exhausted myself from trying to anticipate people want me to be. And I just can't do that anymore. I think for a long time I've tried different things musically of, maybe I'll be like the cool girl that plays like hardcore songs.
And the reality is I'm very soft and emotional and Also hard and intense. I was three at times. You can ask my bass player back there. Also Jamie's bass player. but what I want to talk about and what I want to share is deeply emotional stuff. in some settings like that's cool or that's what people want and I would really conceal it and now I just am at a point in my life where I'm like I just can't be any other way.
And I think some of us might get to that at an earlier age. Some of us might not ever get to that and struggle. But... think time and experience of being on stage in so many different settings for so many years, playing big festivals to thousands of people, playing to nobody, playing loud bars I've progressively become stronger in what is it that I have to offer, what is it that I want to talk about, what is it that I want to share, because if I try to do what I think other people want, it's going to conflict with what the person next to them wants.
Maybe it's going to be cool for this guy, but then this guy is bored and doesn't like it. You're never going to please everybody. I think just getting to the point of, Oh, what makes me feel good? What feels like... My mission in life and what I have to offer. And sticking to that, the last couple of years, especially after a pandemic, I've gotten really adamant about the culture at shows of talking during shows I say something on stage almost every time if I'm even if I'm opening for other people, if there's people talking in the audience, and it's pretty controversial but I will say something, I'll just say, I want to remind you that what it took to get to this place for me, for you, the money you spent to be here, the time you took to be here, the time it took me to be here on stage, and what's happened in the last few years to get back to live music, and I just ask that you like, take a breath, be present, and Maybe give this a chance see what it would feel like to just listen I know you're having a drink and having fun and talking but man This could be a really beautiful moment and I was on tour with the wood brothers Which are an incredible band and we would play these beautiful theaters where the audience was silent And it was so incredible as an opener because you're going out there Nobody knows who you are and then we would play like a Friday night huge club and the bars in the room and people would be so rowdy and drunk and I'd go out there like with my Acoustic guitar and sing emotional songs and there would be people talking and I would say that and I remember a guy came up to Me afterwards and was like, thank you because I was one of the assholes talking in the back And he was like and I heard you and I thought Oh yeah, I came to hear some music.
I don't know who she is, but maybe I'll just sit and listen for a minute. And he was like, thank you for the reminder. I wasn't scolding him, I just was like, hey, we're here. Three years ago, I never would have done that. I would have been terrified, I would have felt like maybe if I was better, they would just quiet and listen to me.
I don't believe that now. Now I feel like we need reminders, I think a lot of the like, being able to show up as your authentic self can come from time and experience, and spending time getting to know.
[00:50:49] Aaron: I think we had another question over here.
[00:50:51] Jamie: more of a statement than a question. But, I wanted to thank you guys. There's a couple other artists in the room. Thank you. In this time and age when everyone's so angry all the time you come for four days and there's more smiles in these four days than I see the rest of the year. You guys are the reason for that.
Thank you. I appreciate
it. can do, right? It can bring us together and remind us that The rest of it doesn't really matter unless we get back to just being neighbors again that can connect over things like music and
[00:51:26] Aaron: be happy. Yeah, we have a lot more in common than, than we're led to believe. So thank you all for taking your morning, bringing your coffee down here and sitting with us.
we promise singing later.
[00:51:36] Jamie: Thank you so much. Thank
[00:51:39] Aaron: you.