Jillian Jacqueline has released 4+ records/EPs on both major and independent labels, she started performing at 8 years old, had a charting song at 12 (with Billy Dean and Suzie Bogguss), has worked with Vince Gill, Suzy Bogguss, Richard Marx, Keith Urban, and Shane McAnally, played the Grand Ole Opry, and toured all over the world. We talk to Jillian about redefining success, industry expectations, motherhood and artistry, maintaining integrity, building community, challenging your identity, and a whole lot more.
Jillian Jacqueline has released 4+ records/EPs on both major and independent labels, she started performing at 8 years old, had a charting song at 12 (with Billy Dean and Suzie Bogguss), has worked with Vince Gill, Suzy Bogguss, Richard Marx, Keith Urban, and Shane McAnally, played the Grand Ole Opry, and toured all over the world. We talk to Jillian about redefining success, industry expectations, motherhood and artistry, maintaining integrity, building community, challenging your identity, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to today's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,
[00:00:19] Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 129, and this week our guest is Jillian Jacqueline.
[00:00:28] Aaron: Yeah, Jillian is a singer songwriter based here in Nashville, and she started at the ripe young age of nine years old performing on stage.
Being homeschooled and really you know, having supportive parents that put her on stage. Then leaving that gonna high school, going to college and ending up in Nashville and being like, no, this is, me. This is what I'm doing. She's gone on to release records on labels both major labels and independent labels. And has worked with, I gotta read this, Vince Gill, Suzy Bogguss, Richard Marks Keith Urban. Shane McInally some pretty major names in the country music scene. She's performed at C two C over in the Old World pilgrimage.
She's been on the Grand Ole Opry and she's toured extensively in all of the places.
[00:01:11] Michaela: Yeah. And this was a really fun conversation talking to someone who started so young, really getting to dig into what that means for identity and ambition. She called it psychotic ambition. Mm-hmm. and we got to.
Talk about the different seasons of life that we all go through and how hard it is to not compare, as well as the importance of finding community with people who are in a similar season to you. And of course, we talked about motherhood. It is impossible to talk to a mother artist and not talk about the way that this has changed their art but also.
How it has impacted their career on the business side. And she has an incredible new project called Mother that features shows and does fundraising and work to support mothers in the music industry. Mothers like Lori McKenna, Lucy Silvas Kaitlyn Smith, who's been a guest on our podcast and a number of others, and she.
Made it a point to say when they started it that they weren't doing something like, this is so cute for moms and mommies. No, this is mother. Mother meaning we mean business. These are serious people. Which unfortunately is still something we really need to assert.
[00:02:24] Aaron: As always, there are topics in this conversation that our Patreons get to weigh in on. They send us suggestions because they get advanced notice of who our guests are going to be. They also get the immense, deep soul fulfilling life, enriching knowledge that they are supporting the production of our show.
And helping us have guests like Jillian and share ideas and experiences back with our community is the only way to financially support the production of our show, which is not a small task. So if you would be so kind as to visit our Patreon below, there's a chance to support our production there.
[00:02:56] Michaela: And if you're a visual person, this conversation as well as all of our previous conversations are available to watch on YouTube. And without further ado, here is our conversation with Jillian. Jacqueline.
Thank you so much for being on with us, and so nice to meet you. I know you and I have texted and we have people in common and, I don't think we've ever met in person.
[00:03:18] Jillian: I don't think we have, I know there's so many mutual friends. and actually Maddie Diaz texted me about you like months and months ago, and it was right around, I think when we had like connected on Instagram and she was like, I really want you to check out this friend's podcast. You
have to talk to her about motherhood.
And I was like, oh yeah, totally. I'm on it. Like I'm a fan. I've watched a lot of these, so it's very cool to be doing it. Yeah, and I
love that you guys do it together. My husband and I, this is his studio. We have a very similar dynamic, I'm assuming to you guys. So I'm interested to talk to you about that too.
[00:03:52] Aaron: Yeah. As you guys were talking about not being tech dinosaurs, I was like, Ooh, that's a Moog, that's a prophet over. I was checking out the synthesizers over your shoulder as you guys were talking about that.
[00:04:00] Jillian: there's a lot going on in here. Yeah, Thank God for him. I
mean, if it weren't for him, I'd be lost in the woods. And I think it's still sort of cute that I don't wanna do these things, but also I could see this like he's gonna get tired of this very quickly. Like he got me a new iPhone
and it's sitting on the shelf in our kitchen.
It's been sitting there for maybe seven days
now. And he's like, why have you not opened it? Don't you wanna use it? And
I'm like,
[00:04:22] Aaron: a hundred percent Mikayla.
[00:04:24] Jillian: and I'm like, honestly, this one's fine. Like, but thank you. I'm so grateful. I'll get to it, I promise.
Yeah. I'm like, you have a $3,000 laptop sitting in the box. Yeah. I'm, and you're having me troubleshoot the one that's not working right now.
Oh my gosh, that is so funny. Okay, so I feel less alone.
[00:04:41] Aaron: Yeah, and I wonder, I was trying to make some weird like trad wife version joke of like being singer songwriters but we depend on our husbands to like record us.
[00:04:51] Jillian: right? Oh, totally. No, I know. I like write with all these youngsters who are like, yeah, I'll just like do the demo and logic when I get home and record the vocal. And I'm like, oh,
that's not, that?
that's not me. I should know how to do that. And I don't. I've been very spoiled.
[00:05:06] Michaela: I know. Whenever I do like backing vocal sessions it's so easy. And yet Erin's always like, you could just do this in your office. you have an interface. I could show you one time. You don't need me to do this. I'm just like, but I don't want to.
[00:05:20] Jillian: But I don't. want to. And now you have two kids,
right?
I was watching someone online the other day talking about she has a very young baby, and she was like, I just think about what my life was like before my child. And I'm like, what the hell was I doing? What
was I doing with my time?
was I staring at the wall? picking at my nails and I'm like, I know you're so right. I should have learned five languages when I had the chance.
[00:05:44] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:05:44] Aaron: Yeah. I mean, I didn't feel like I had a ton of time.
our first child was born during the pandemic, but we like started like really seriously talking about it in 2020. it was apparent that we weren't gonna tour anytime soon.
Like, Things were slow and we were like loving it, you know? we were loving the freedom and the moving around and Mikayla kept being like, we should have kids. And I'm like, we should, but boredom is not the reason to have
[00:06:03] Jillian: Oh my gosh. You guys, too many parallels are happening
too soon into this conversation right now. Literally in like May of 2020, I was like, I think we need to have a baby. He literally was like, we're not having a baby 'cause we're bored. But
it, I was like, no, this is the perfect time.
Like the universe has allowed us to have this time to do this. That is hilarious. Oh my
god.
[00:06:25] Michaela: the pandemic hit and I was like, okay, I had this plan and the world just changed and altered my plan. So I knew I wanted to be a mother no matter what. So like the career thing all of a sudden was just taken outta my hands, where before I was like, oh, everything's going as I hoped.
I was like doing all the things I wanted to do, and then the world flipped upside down for everybody and I was like that just shows me I have no control. So we might as well just start having kids.
[00:06:56] Jillian: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I think that's sort of what happened to a lot of us in that mindset shift. And not to make light of it, but like I know a lot of artists that went on antidepressants right around that time
because we realized how distracted we had been keeping ourselves and anti-anxiety, whatever, like The distraction was a good thing. 'cause we're all very driven. You have to be, it's 24 7. But I had the same experience where it just sent me into this existential spiral, but also long term I see that it was so necessary for me to have that forced rest and that sort of forced like reckoning with my own very psychotically ambitious way of living, it was necessary for the job, but it wasn't necessarily honoring what my body and my mind really needed.
And so now I look back on it as like such a gift for me because the slowdown was really where a lot of past trauma came up too, of like, oh,
the way I've been operating in the music business is motivated by a lot of fear. And not a lot of like, love for doing the job itself,
[00:08:01] Michaela: yeah. You just said psychotically ambitious, which is a pretty mm-hmm. big emotionally weighty word. Can you expand on that? Because also you started so young.
[00:08:14] Jillian: yeah. The two words together make a lot of sense to me, because I got like an identity wrapped up in being an artist very young. You know, I started performing like professionally when I was nine, my parents took it very seriously.
And so I think from a very young age, I really equated a lot of my purpose and my identity with being, Out in the world, on stage performing. And I definitely like took some, time off from that. Like I went to college, I left, my sisters and I were homeschooled and I chose to leave the homeschooling and the touring to go to high school for two years and then college.
So I kind of removed myself for a bit to be like, is this really what I want? upon graduating, I went to Thailand for like three months and I realized like, oh, I'm going to Nashville. Like of course I'm gonna do music next. Like that's the next step. That's what I've been working towards my whole life inadvertently.
And when I got to Nashville, it just sort of, something in my brain just sort of clicked I just became very tunnel vision focused on, whatever my version of success at the time was. Which, you know, I grew up on country music. I greatly admired a lot of big country artists, and I kind of thought the only way to do it was to get from.
The bottom to like the very top. I really didn't understand like how you are an artist, like mid-level, like, tier B, like where you just tour comfortably whenever you want to and make records. Like, I was like, no, it has to be like the big thing. And so the psychotic ambition kind of came from like all of these ideas I have of what has to happen, I have to make sure I make them happen and very quickly make them happen.
looking back, there was a lot of just like misplaced motivation. you know, I, I was sort of just like gunning for something because I was very committed to the idea of that thing rather than really being in love with the process of like what I was doing. And, you know, it's kind of like the last several years have been, I would say, an unraveling of all of that and more like.
Do I really love this and why do I love it and what do I love about it? So, yeah. I wouldn't say it was always just like this pure, like, I love this. I can't wait to like, I love doing this. It was very much like, this is what I do and I have to do it,
[00:10:23] Aaron: yeah. Like almost like a, an obligation
[00:10:25] Jillian: Yeah. Which is like really hard to admit.
And a habit. Absolutely. Yes. Definitely a habit. And very, you know, you just kind of learn things about yourself along the way. And I, definitely am like a very goal oriented person. So
like, once I've set a goal, I can like chase that goal until I get to it.
Even if I lose interest in the goal along the way,
I'm like, I still have to get there. 'cause I said I would, you know, maybe that's like I'm thinking it's like an integrity thing, but it could just be an obsessive compulsive thing.
[00:10:54] Michaela: I relate to that because I, think of like, somewhere along the way I try to remember, when touring and like quote unquote building uh, was not connected to music at all. As a child or even in college, I didn't really know. 'cause I felt like I was really late to the music industry in the sense of like, I didn't start touring until mid to late twenties and I didn't really know anything about this world.
And when I get so super focused on it, where I'm like, no, the only way to show progress or seem like you're doing it is to have a super full calendar. And otherwise you can't claim to be a musician. I'm like, wait, who? Told you this remember when there was a time where that didn't infiltrate your identity or relationship to making songs or singing songs and like, how do you get back there?
But you can, when you get so focused, like you said, like tunnel vision, and then you live in a place where everyone around you is doing it and all of your friends, and that's where all the conversations lie when you go out and like, everything just feels like it's so hard to step out of it or even notice, oh, is this, good for me?
Is this still feeling enjoyable?
[00:12:06] Jillian: Well, yeah, and like you're saying, it's a full, commitment. It's a 24 7 job, so it's not the nine to five where you leave work, you drive home and you disconnect from your job.
It's actually all encompassing and I think We are told at least that it requires that level of immersion where you have to eat, sleep, breathe it, and die by it.
And in a lot of ways, that is very true especially now the oversaturation rate of like being an artist and putting out records, I mean, it's just getting to such a point that you can sort of start to feel that rapid like anxiety of like someone else, of course will, come up right beside me and they'll put out a record and that will get more response or whatever it is.
Like there's an endless amount of competition involved. And so I think for us as human beings, we get to a, at least I did, I got to a place in my early thirties where I started to really notice that my nervous system was extremely dysregulated pretty much all the time. And I think it just had to do with feeling like I could never turn off my hamster wheel of what is the next thing I need to do? And I really started to understand, oh, this isn't like how everyone lives. This isn't very normal to constantly be having to, feel anxious about what I'm not doing or not doing enough of, or how am I gonna make that thing happen? And, you know, there's also these financial aspects to it where this job, for the amount of effort you're putting out.
It can be much harder to even see a return on that investment. again, it's not the nine to five where you go to work, you get the paycheck. It's very much like I'm putting in so much effort and feeling like, is this even making sense financially for me to
do this
[00:13:44] Michaela: I stayed with Dominique and Sean a few years ago
[00:13:48] Jillian: my gosh.
[00:13:49] Michaela: out on tour in California. 'cause
[00:13:51] Jillian: did I, I knew
[00:13:52] Michaela: Jensen is a mutual friend.
[00:13:54] Jillian: Oh, Molly's the best
too. Mm-hmm. So I stayed with them and Willow is almost the exact same age as our daughter.
Oh, what's your daughter's name?
[00:14:02] Michaela: Georgia.
[00:14:03] Jillian: Oh, so Sweet
Willow is a spitfire that girl. She is wild and awesome.
[00:14:09] Michaela: Oh my God. She was hilarious back then and she was only two and a
[00:14:12] Jillian: too, yeah. She's so great. Oh, that's awesome. Okay.
So yeah,
small world. And Sean And Sarah played on my, record that's coming out,
um, which was so great and Sean's got a great setup. I guess you probably saw the Garage studio when you were there.
[00:14:28] Michaela: well, we did on, Zoom on this. I didn't see it when I was there, but he was in that studio when we talked to him for this podcast,
[00:14:36] Jillian: Yeah, we cut three vocals for my record in that room. And it was great. But we learned later, like we, didn't do the proper amount of soundproofing around the mic, but
I mean, it's fine. There's just like a little bit of noise in there and it's kind of cool 'cause you can like, feel the room, you know?
[00:14:52] Aaron: I like those things. The life in the. because it's like, being sitting in a studio like you are, or a studio like we have, it's like, oh, it needs to be like perfect and treated and like all that. And they're like, that's cool and all, but it's also like nice to hear the humanness and everything and
[00:15:06] Jillian: absolutely. I love that too.
I think more now than ever, I'm like really wanting to just, every record I make from here on out, I just want to like get closer to that, that humanness. Like, I
[00:15:19] Aaron: you know,
with a friend listening to totally dorky. Production audio stuff, but like listening to stems from a Led Zeppelin record. but just like hearing the, acoustic guitar by itself, and it's like if anybody showed up to a recording session in Nashville with an acoustic guitar tune like that, like that would be the last time that they worked.
[00:15:35] Michaela: Yeah. But it sounds incredible. And it's like, so moving,
[00:15:39] Jillian: because you're a producer, so like for you, it's like that's so interesting. I talk to Brian about that all the time. 'cause we listen to old records. Or just like weird stuff. And I'm like, you would never let that fly. Like you would adjust that until it sounded better. but, you know, but love the magic in it when we listen to it, but technically it's not like what would be the standard of
how someone would, allow something to actually get recorded to tape or whatever.
But these imperfections are so magical. If you can capture them, how do you manage that? I'm just curious. Like when you're producing, like sometimes are you just like, let's just get weird with it and like make it messy and see
[00:16:12] Aaron: Yeah, that's what I go for. I try to focus on intent and delivery because like when it comes down to it with all the tools and all of that, that's inside a laptop now. Like, You can fix tuning, you can fix timing, like all of that. But you can't change somebody's intent the feeling,
[00:16:29] Jillian: Yeah.
[00:16:30] Aaron: you you can't fake that.
And I noticed with younger artists that I work with too, that like, everything needs to be polished and perfect and like
presented curated so well, which like, want really great art to be out there, but like, it doesn't necessarily need to be squeaky clean for it to be great art.
No. You know, Like my favorite, like if you listen to let it be, it's before one of the choruses, one of the 8,000 choruses on that song. Paul McCartney just plays a blatantly wrong chord. There's four chorus and he just like hits one that's like, whoa, what is that? And like guarantee, nobody's ever heard that maybe five people that are listening to this right now have, noticed that.
[00:17:03] Jillian: I love that you
[00:17:04] Aaron: now, every time
[00:17:05] Jillian: keeps you in the room with
the song being created, though.
It really does. It keeps you in the room. I, I love that. That's so, great.
[00:17:11] Michaela: I feel like it's such a low hanging fruit if you are playing live and like a dude after your set tells you, Hey, your guitar was out of tune for that one song. I'm like, yeah, no shit, dude. Like I can hear it, but also go back and listen to so many Bob Dylan records that you're probably nutting over.
Sorry.
[00:17:31] Jillian: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:32] Michaela: No.
[00:17:33] Jillian: Have someone seriously said that to you though?
Have you had people actually say that to you?
[00:17:37] Michaela: Oh, yeah, I I've heard it. I
[00:17:39] Jillian: Oh my Like, you know, on that one song your guitar went out of tune, like mid song. I'm like, yeah. And I had the choice to either stop the song and retune or like I mean it didn't happen all the time, obviously, but like, it always just has felt like a way for them to try and assert that they
Know what they're
[00:17:56] Michaela: something.
Yeah.
[00:17:58] Jillian: to tell you about their entire guitar collection. and you're like, I don't give a shit.
[00:18:02] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:18:03] Jillian: I don't wanna hear that. But you know, you're in Des Moines and he's like really excited to tell you that he has like a 1965 Martin.
You're like, okay, Great.
[00:18:11] Aaron: Yeah, my guys, I'm noticing you keep saying he, what's going on
[00:18:15] Jillian: Oh, sorry. Was it a man? I assumed it was a man.
[00:18:18] Aaron: didn't. It's always a man, always.
[00:18:20] Michaela: No. I have a song called If I Wanted Your Opinion, you would know. And even on my shortest of opening sets, I have a hard time not playing it because it is like my protective shield now because I play that song and I tell the story about, I wrote this song with my friend Mary Bragg, talking about all of the crazy shit that is said to us at the merch table or wherever, and nobody says anything to me when I, play that song, it's like the best shield.
[00:18:48] Jillian: that's so smart. this is the first song I opened the entire show with. Just to preface, to let you
guys know. Quiet. Nobody cares. Be quiet. If you, we wanted you to be up here doing this, we would've asked you.
It's not you. It's me. Totally.
Are you guys still touring right now?
I know you just had a baby.
months old.
[00:19:07] Michaela: played, some shows in the spring when he was three or four months. A combination of like, all of us went, And then a few weekends where I went by myself just with the baby and brought. friends locally help me wherever I was playing.
And I'm about to do that again next week. Aaron's playing some shows this weekend with someone else, and then I'm playing a few shows in Colorado, taking the baby and getting a friend there. And then the next weekend Aaron's playing a show in South Carolina and taking our 4-year-old with him and oh, that same weekend that I'm playing in Colorado, he's gonna take,
[00:19:43] Aaron: we we're going on independent tours with
[00:19:45] Jillian: are wild. No, this is rad. Like truly, I commend you.
[00:19:49] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:19:50] Jillian: Brian and I, now that we have a almost 4-year-old, after we had him, and honestly after the pandemic, Brian was kind of like, I think I'm done with the road. Like he just sort of wanted to get really into the mixing way more in the production.
And so that all really slowed down work. 'cause it used to just be the two of us all the time, and it was like dreamy. It was like a honeymoon all the time. It was awesome. But yeah we've, just sort of phased that whole thing out and so now when it is a show weekend or something, it's me by
myself and Rocky stays here with his dad.
But I love hearing that you guys are just doing it all.
Like, wow. Does
it feel fun?
[00:20:27] Aaron: it is, yes. I, I also, I mostly stay home like these, this is rare that I'm playing these shows and I'm taking, I feel like you've been saying that for
[00:20:33] Michaela: six months.
[00:20:35] Aaron: I, I have played more shows this year with two kids than I did in the four years leading up to it with just one kid because
[00:20:40] Michaela: it's been great timing for me.
Well,
[00:20:42] Aaron: because you gotta make hay while the sun shines, I
[00:20:44] Jillian: Yeah, absolutely. Totally.
[00:20:46] Aaron: childcare is expensive.
[00:20:47] Jillian: Childcare is
so expensive, and also you'd always rather have your child with you, you know?
[00:20:52] Michaela: it totally comes down to just like logistics doing what you can. It's like, I got these shows in Colorado opening for the Milk Carton kids, and it's only three shows and it's like, I've toured with them before. I know emotionally, spiritually, financially, career wise, how beneficial it is anytime I've played shows with them.
So I'm like, of course I wanna do that. It's also not a two week tour, so it's perfect timing. And then Aaron got asked to play a show this same exact weekend, and he turned it down and then they were like, we really need you. We'll give you more money. And he was like, cool, what time's the show? Can I bring my 4-year-old daughter?
I was like,
[00:21:28] Aaron: well, I was like, oh man, we're gonna like flying a grandparent. Okay, you're gonna have to pay for that. And I was like,
When's the show? And they're like, oh, it's like five to seven eastern time. So it's like four o'clock to six o'clock. And I'm like,
[00:21:37] Jillian: nice.
[00:21:38] Aaron: I get my own hotel room.
It's four o'clock to six o'clock.
[00:21:41] Jillian: So will she just come and like, where will she just be side stage, like hanging out.
[00:21:45] Aaron: Yeah. So this is a, this band doesn't play very often. We used to play all the time and tour all the time. And then post pandemic, we play like two shows a year. And this is probably the first out of town show that we've played since like 2018.
[00:21:55] Jillian: Whoa.
[00:21:56] Aaron: like a college show
[00:21:58] Jillian: Oh, cool.
[00:21:58] Aaron: came up, we're like, cool, let's do it. And so the songwriter lead singer, his partner is gonna be there, and so she's just gonna hang out
[00:22:06] Jillian: Oh, that's awesome. That's sweet. No, I think, Brian's probably never gonna go back on the road. It would take a very unique
situation, but I'm still kind of wrapping my head around what that's gonna look like for like,
the next decade of my life.
Because I left Rockwell quite a lot in his first two years. I mean, that's really the only option I felt like I had because he was so young. I didn't wanna travel with him alone. I mean, Mikayla, I've seen a couple of your TikTok videos where you've got
the baby and you've got people coming and I'm like, you literally like possess a bone in your body.
I don't, because like, I know I could, but I, at the time, freshly postpartum, I was like, I don't know if I possess the mental capacity to hand him to someone else and go on
stage and trust like, I don't, I wasn't aware that I would be able to fully function
in that moment And do the show.
And I've heard other artists, I've, talked about this a little bit with Jess and Holly from Lucius,
because I guess Holly had to, for the first tour, one of the first tours they did where she had a very young baby, and maybe he was a toddler, I don't know, but they hired like different nannies In every city.
[00:23:10] Michaela: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:23:10] Jillian: And she was like, it was like very stressful to like,
be like, he's screaming, but the stranger, he doesn't know I'm walking on stage. where
[00:23:19] Michaela: pregnant
[00:23:19] Jillian: So I'm like, do I wanna do this?
[00:23:21] Michaela: as well. Yeah.
[00:23:22] Jillian: Yeah. And I know, like, I'm, you know, I wanna say like, I would figure it out, but I, I chose to leave and leave me here with my husband because I felt like.
It made me feel calmer to know he'll be at home in his environment with his dad. And so I'm really trying to like, 'cause you hear people all the time say like, they'll love it. They're gonna have so much fun. Like, it's a great experience for your kids to see you out living your dreams. And I am still clinging to that idea of like, he's better here, where
he's like, has all of his stuff.
And maybe like when he can verbalize like, I wanna go with you, or I don't wanna go, then I'll feel more comfortable
about it, you know?
[00:23:58] Michaela: I will say I was not comfortable with the first, child to do what I do now with
[00:24:05] Jillian: Hmm.
[00:24:05] Michaela: First time I never traveled completely alone. Like I never flew. I flew alone with her. Several times to go visit my parents, but I never flew alone with her to go play shows and navigate that stuff, like renting a car and getting into hotels.
I never did that and I would've if I had to, I probably would've cried through the whole thing. But second time around, I think I'm just like so much more worn, down, and the mental capacity, I'm so much more used to being split in so many ways. It is a hundred percent easier to do my job as a musician and perform when my children are not there
[00:24:49] Jillian: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:49] Michaela: it is so mentally and emotionally distracting to want to tend to their needs and also do a good job and perform and do all the things you need to do.
Even when Erin's there, I still feel this pull of but my babies are right there. It's also beautiful and fun to have them a part of it, but it's a constant, navigating what works for what time and it changes with their ages and what you feel comfortable doing. I also have like a, just, I'm not ready to be away from Henry at eight months, so like I am taking him everywhere because I nurse him, but like another mom might be like He definitely should maybe stay home,
[00:25:32] Jillian: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:32] Michaela: know, like
[00:25:33] Jillian: it's whatever you feel capable of really.
Like, and watching you do that was truly inspiring for me.
that's another thing that I've talked about with several moms. In this sort of mother thing that we're creating is like, there just aren't that many examples of like what you're showing on TikTok and what, you know, Jess and Holly have talked about.
There's not that many of like the nitty gritty stuff that
comes with maintaining a certain career. And also, you know, really tailoring your life suddenly to this little human who needs you in more ways than you've ever been needed before. And I think honestly, I'm still wrestling with a lot of that, like trying to balance how to feel less, guilt and shame about wanting things I want and also really succumbing to like the weight of motherhood, you know, what it requires um, the mother that I wanna be.
So, I'm not interested right now in that. Internal battle that push pull constantly of, ooh, I kind of feel bad about doing this, but I feel like I should be home with him, but I wanna do that. I'm like trying to take that emotion off my plate right now because it just kind of was wrecking me for like two years when he was very young.
And now I'm really just having to be super intentional about entertaining anything that feels like it's going to create this battle within me
of like, is this worth it or is it just something that I feel like I have to do so that I look like I'm doing something?
[00:26:58] Aaron: Yeah, that's a big thing. So that I look like I'm doing something. I mean, that's
[00:27:02] Jillian: Yeah.
I mean that's, kind of the nature of the game too, is like, especially with our online personas, I laugh to myself, thinking about all of the artists. This is gonna make me sound like archaic and like, I'm just not progressive. But all the artists we grew up on that we love so much, if they had to do what we do now with social media, it's just laughable.
Like of our days are just this admin of like, let me project to you what I want you to believe about me.
You know, it's really not about the record and the show. It's about like all the other ways you curate your personality and your brand through your phone.
I'm tired of like being pessimistic about it, but I'll just say like, I've really had to choose because I'm not willing to do a lot of these things constantly.
That just takes. A certain level of a career off the table for me, truly
like it does. If you're not willing to do all of that all the time and really learn how to sell yourself well, you're just not going to get there. And I was like, okay, well then I don't want it because I can't,
for my soul's sake, I cannot,
[00:28:03] Michaela: I'm just
[00:28:03] Aaron: sitting here trying to imagine like Kenny Rogers walking down the street, like talking into his phone, telling you about a show he is playing. Like,
[00:28:10] Jillian: I mean, Leonard Cohen,
he's like, Hey guys, I just came up with this chorus. Let me know what you think. Like,
[00:28:15] Aaron: Should I finish it?
[00:28:16] Jillian: oh God, it's just so, and I know people are like, well, you just gotta get with the times. And I'm like, actually, I don't. Actually, I would rather be the antithesis of all of this than participate in it.
And I think sometimes culturally we really have to remind ourselves we don't have to go with the flow. We don't have to continue where the current is going. We feel pressured to, because when we don't, we feel left out. But that's on us. We choose to feel left out. And I just have to constantly remind myself of the type of life that I want and the examples of people I admire.
they usually had to hold fast to some sort of ideal about who they were in the world and how they wanted their life to go. And it just requires like opting out of a lot of things, you know? And that sense of fomo, of like, okay, well I'm gonna get left behind. Yes, you will, you'll get left behind and you might be lonely, but at least you'll have your integrity you know, your sense of self.
And yeah, I think that's important. You.
[00:29:13] Michaela: Well that's also prioritizing. You'll get left behind from one specific way of life because that life that you're left behind in might be richer and more exciting and fulfilling than you could even imagine. Which is, these are conversations we have all the time. 'cause I've spent a long time being focused on the vision I had for my life and how In a lot of ways. It's incredible the way that my life is now in the ways that my dreams have come true. And in a lot of ways it is so different than what I hoped would be my reality right now. And I think what you said of we don't have to go with the times we can decide. I wanna do things my way and do it with eyes wide open to what the consequences are and be really okay with those consequences.
I think about that a lot of like I don't want it enough to do. This has been a huge thing in my life of like, yeah, I don't wanna make videos like those videos I've made of tour diaries of like being a mom on the road. I love making those because it's something I feel passionate about and so it's like really naturally motivated because I want other people to see that it is possible to keep doing the thing that you love, even if you are driving around by yourself and not on a bus and don't have a huge team and all that stuff.
That I still can play songs and I still want to And this is the nitty gritty of the way, one way that it's possible, but. Making a bunch of videos of me playing songs into my phone, I'm not interested in it all.
Like, So therefore, like you said it's, gonna already cancel me out of like, I'm not gonna, I have a whatever, and I'm totally okay with that.
[00:31:01] Jillian: Yes. And it took you, right. a long time to get there because
I don't know if you're like me, but I think a lot of the narrative in my mind was, you can't give up. that was really ingrained in me of like, you have to be someone that's resilient
and you have to pivot the way everyone else does, and you have to look capable of pivoting very quickly.
And so I put a lot of pressure on myself to hold fast to an idea of career. Like I said earlier, like well beyond the desire to have it,
didn't have the desire for it, but I just had the commitment. Like it has to be that way. And so I, was doing things and going through these motions, A lot of it was I was with a label where I had a lot of people reminding me to do things and that I had to do things because of X, Y, and Z. And even with this record, I'm still, with Virgin for distribution and so I still have a few people that are kind of like, these are where these numbers are.
This is what we wanna do. we want this to be like this, or can you try to do this? And even that like, I'm so grateful for their support. And also I realize that even that for me is not necessarily healthy for my mindset to show up as authentically as I want to.
I know with this record, like I'm doing this and I'm really. Happy that they care about it and that they're putting it out. And, once this record is over, whatever I make next will really be the first time. 'cause I don't see myself signing another deal anytime soon the first time.
I will fully have no other voice or person kind of invested in like, the outcome of the record. And so I'm really curious how I'll show up even in that moment too. I've never really put music out without anyone having a say in like, how we're doing it.
I'm trying to stay curious about that experience.
[00:32:48] Michaela: Are you feeling pressured with this record to go and, tour?
[00:32:52] Jillian: no, not at all.
first of all. Financially to tour right now? It would definitely not be headline dates because that makes absolutely no sense for me. What I've talked about doing with some other artists who are actually moms is building off of what we're doing with mothers. So what would make sense, which we might do in 2026 is do sort of select cities where we all kind of pull resources and we can bring our kids and we share a bus.
We're talking to Live Nation about sort of helping us do this to actually provide a way for moms to have community go on the road together, play shows that make sense time-wise for their kids and their kids' schedules. Cause they're humans too and they
have lives. So it's like, you know, we're not gonna go Thursday to Sunday.
We'll probably go Friday to Sunday or Saturday night. I don't, whatever it is, it'll be, you know, less commitment. But, that's what we're hoping for.
[00:33:43] Jillian: to be honest, right where I am at in my life, I don't really wanna be like opening for a band who's not in the same phase of life that I'm in.
And that sounds kind of discriminatory, but I'm kind of like, no, I actually, if I'm gonna play shows, I wanna play shows with moms like I
just do because I really want like-minded people around me and I want them to understand that there is a sacrifice involved with everything that we do now in our work.
And, I just found that like, freshly postpartum when I was going out on the road with other artists, I felt like I almost had to hide a lot of what my reality was. Hide that I was missing my son hide that I was pumping in the bathroom. Like, it just felt very much like I have to act like I'm just like any other artist and I'm having a great time.
And there was just like a lot of stuff going on for me. But I was just showing up to play the shows and I was very grateful to do that. But it also just comes with a lot of other thoughts and feelings, you know?
[00:34:36] Michaela: Yeah, that sounds amazing. I'm like, can you do like 4:00 PM shows and then you can like still do bedtime? Like
[00:34:43] Jillian: Totally. Yeah. I know. Like how do we tailor this to, to us
and
[00:34:47] Aaron: 4:00 PM or 9:00 PM
[00:34:48] Michaela: Yeah. Well, No, cause then you're up that was the hardest thing, like going on tour. We did like two weeks with the milk carton kids when Georgia was eight months old and they're incredible because Joey has kids and they were so sympathetic and, you know, like I was like calling the tour manager.
Like, I left my breast pump in the, in the green
[00:35:08] Jillian: I love that.
[00:35:09] Michaela: you need me to bring it to you? I'm like, yes, my boobs are gonna explode Anyways, I've been really lucky and. I toured with the brothers Comatose, this kind of bluegrassy band from California when I was six months pregnant with Henry, and Georgia was three and they're all dads.
And it was just like, thankfully there are a growing number of men as well out there who are super sympathetic. But those shows would go so late and it'd be like, I didn't have Georgia with me and I wasn't pregnant on that tour, but it still was like going to bed at like 1:00 AM
[00:35:40] Jillian: Oh, yeah,
[00:35:41] Michaela: like wrecked because you're already sleep deprived.
But also there's audiences out there who would love to go to a five o'clock show.
[00:35:48] Jillian: You know, When I first. Came up with the mother idea and like had to figure out how to pitch it to other people. I was worried that they would kind of be like, Ooh, cute moms. And I was like, no, this is not cute. This is not like sweet moms and I, it's not like the whole audience is moms.
This is like mother, she's a serious person. She has serious things to say. Like she's, again, like a lot of these artists who are part of what this is, and we hope to have you on one of our shows as well, like these are artists that have built very viable careers, making incredible records.
They're some of my favorite records that have ever been made, a lot of them have come up against this, very weird sort of fork in the road where it didn't make sense financially to go back on the road. they couldn't even figure out how to make another record after they had a baby.
They felt a lot of the bottom dropout with their teams in the industry. There was no support there. and you can't expect Everyone.
to just have this incredible, powerful resilience to just pick themselves back up and figure it out. Like a lot of us get sleep deprived. There's identity crisis that happens after postpartum, and you sort of just sort of like, oh man, I don't know if I have it in me right now to like keep fighting and figure this out.
And I don't feel like I have a community that understands what I'm going through and I don't wanna sound like I'm complaining. Um, And so women kind of just don't talk about those things. And so from opening up that conversation, I learned like the audience doesn't even realize what the obstacles become.
And so they're kind of like, why aren't you, getting back out on the road? You know? And I posted this thing on Instagram that was sort of a very like honest compilation of my experience the last few years as an early mom. And and just how I did a lot of things just to looked like I was still doing things after I had a son.
And know, a fan had commented on it like, I remember seeing you like outside of this club in, I don't know where we were, cologne, Germany or Berlin or something. And she's like, just thought it was so badass that like you had just had a baby and you were back on the road, like you loved it so much that you couldn't wait to get back out and play shows.
And, she's like, now I realize it was a lot more complicated than that. And she's like, it kind of bums me out, but I'm also really like, proud of you for doing it. And so it was like this interesting take from a fan of like, she wanted to believe that like nothing was gonna keep me off stage and I would just make my way there and do it, which is like partly true.
And also it was really painful to have to leave my son for three weeks. And part of me regretted it and I was like, that was scary. I don't know if I would ever do that again. So I think it's important for fans to also realize and the nature of the industry changing so much financially too. It's like. there's so many things that have to happen for you to get
out and play shows and to make money playing those shows,
[00:38:20] Michaela: I know we follow each other on social media, so we see our stuff and, and I'm just such a fan of sharing because even like family members will be like, oh, so you're going on tour? So the shows they pay for your travel. Like, Oh, no, definitely not. and there is, that line that you're always worried of do I seem like I'm complaining because nobody's making me do this?
And that's not what it is. I do think it's helpful to educate so that people who do care about. Musicians and artists have a more full understanding. The same way that people are talking more about, you know, even from Taylor Swift educating people about master ownership
[00:38:59] Jillian: Yes. Yeah.
[00:39:00] Michaela: streaming platforms for people who are just fans to know Oh wow, okay. So you're not getting paid as much on that platform and how can I support you because I care about this ecosystem of the arts and musicians. I think it's really important. And then also that's how we connect with each other. That's why you and I connected, I played a show with Caitlyn Smith years and years ago, and then we haven't talked in probably a decade, and then I posted on Instagram about. My experience with my booking agent, because a fan saw me at a festival and said, I know you don't play shows that often anymore because you're a mom. And I was like, Uhuh, that is not
why I
[00:39:38] Jillian: Really? Huh? Okay.
[00:39:39] Michaela: I posted about it and Caitlin reached out to me and was like, yes. And then we were just like, all right, let's meet up and have coffee.
And we can keep quiet out of fear of ruffling feathers or afraid that industry people won't wanna work with us or that we're seen as ungrateful or, complaining. But I genuinely think staying quiet about this stuff is only protecting certain people and not ourselves.
[00:40:03] Jillian: It truly is. And I had an executive who's been in the industry for years and years. She worked at labels before, now she's just more like a consultant, but has done very well. And she came up to me at a, show recently and said, in the nineties I got pregnant and I had so many people at work say to me why did you get pregnant?
You're gonna get fired. They're not gonna keep you here. She was like, what you guys are talking about was so. off the radar, like you, and you had to look like being pregnant was Nothing was happening. you could work just as hard and, so I'm just really in that way.
I guess I am grateful for social media now because we get to share our experience directly to people. we never wanna sound like we are complaining. And that's with the mother shows too. We have to be very careful that when we do start talking about the reality of the situation, we don't just sound like a bunch of people grumbling that it's
not easier for us.
the foundational belief is that I wanna make sure that no artist that wants to have children feels like they cannot because they also wanna be an artist. And there are so many different ways how that can look, the path can be extremely. Windy and complicated, but there are ways to do it.
And we are just here to show you like there's a million different ways that that can look. I've said this multiple times, within the context of this show, but I wish someone had told me this. I don't know if I would have listened to it at the time, but I wish early postpartum someone had just said, just be in the season you're in.
Just be in that season
and do not compare yourself to people that are in different seasons than yours. And I didn't do that. I was like constantly looking at what every 25-year-old was doing and I was like, oh my God, like she's doing so much and I can't move 'cause I'm nursing and you know,
and it's just like not healthy for my mental health.
So, that's what I would tell my younger self if she would listen to me.
[00:41:53] Michaela: Yeah, I'm curious like Aaron, even on the dad side, because I feel like it's hard regardless to trust our seasons of life. And then when you bring in other responsibilities and caretaking, and as the woman and the mother, there's even more layers of how our physical appearance is attached to our, appeal as artists and all of a sudden your body's different.
And I struggled with that too, of wanting to just be like, I gotta figure out how to like, get back on the road. Oh, but now none of my clothes fit. And like, how do I present myself? And, but I'm curious as a dad, did you feel that struggle? 'cause obviously your life. you didn't operate in the same freedom that you had?
[00:42:30] Aaron: I mean, I still don't Yeah, totally.
[00:42:32] Jillian: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:42:34] Michaela: Less, less than
[00:42:35] Jillian: Never ends. Yeah.
[00:42:36] Aaron: Yeah. It's, endless. I mean like that whole, like looking at people in other seasons for sure, like that's, universal. There's stuff that I can't do. You know, There's people that are like going out to shows all the time from one show to the other, to the other.
And I'm like, wait, you went from one show to another show in the same
[00:42:51] Jillian: the same night
[00:42:52] Aaron: and then you went to Dino's? What? Like, know,
six years ago, me would've been like, yeah, cool, great. Of course. Yeah, I went to four shows, like
[00:43:02] Jillian: totally.
[00:43:02] Aaron: and then plus I don't want to make content for myself online.
So like, as somebody that's like trying to produce records I still need to like, meet people and remind people that I exist. And so that's definitely a wall that's hit, but like, that's to me, not like exclusively because we have kids. I mean, It is 'cause we have kids and I'm tired and I have other responsibilities or other things that I choose to put effort in. I have other priorities in my life and other choices that I'm making.
And as far as like the industry side, I see it's, like night and
[00:43:31] Jillian: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:31] Aaron: experience and my experience. I get more respect from people because I have kids as far as like these shows that I'm playing, there's people that would, you know, at first were calling me to tour and I was like I'm not touring anymore.
I, pulled back from touring before we had kids even. But even now, The few people, the no, that I might say yes occasionally. Like a, they understand if I say no 90% of the time, like they'll still ask, which is quite a luxury, you know what I mean? the door doesn't close immediately.
And then also I notice like the money that I'm offered is higher because they're like, oh, like you wouldn't do it for less than this. 'Cause you have a family to support. I'm like, yeah, well, so does she. Mm-hmm. And a lot of times, like she's the breadwinner,
you know what I mean?
[00:44:10] Jillian: Yeah. Wow.
[00:44:11] Aaron: And so it's, pretty much night and day, is that like, you know,
I have more gray hair and I get more respect
[00:44:16] Jillian: But isn't that such a reflection too, of society that we're in? It's like when the dad takes the kids to the playground and the, the women are like, you're such a good dad.
[00:44:25] Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:44:26] Aaron: Yeah, exactly.
[00:44:28] Jillian: know, but you are probably an incredible dad. And I think with what you do, being a producer too, it's like you have been stripped of a lot of that free time, to allow like, creativity to marinate.
Like in any way. That's one thing that I think my husband has struggled with
too, is like, the way that your day is structured is, very structured around someone else. Probably your wife's needs in a lot of ways, and
also your children, but, you know, you don't have that same amount of flexibility to like.
Listen to as much music or just like toy around with whatever parts you might wanna play. Like it's very like, I'm going to work now and now I'm gonna go. And you know, with music I think you need that time and we don't have
that. And I think that's something that he struggled with and I have as well.
But just sort of that freedom to like mess around with things until you feel like it's something interesting and unique, you know? have you struggled with that at all?
[00:45:18] Aaron: For sure. And I, purposely build time in to do that. Sometimes it's far in advance. Sometimes it's like immediately before I walk out here. It is such a head space thing that like Art Studio is not attached to our house. It's in the backyard, like it's a separate building. So most nights I come back in here sometimes I come back in and I'm like, cool, I'm gonna reopen this mix, but I'm gonna save it as something completely different and I'm just gonna like chase and it might be awesome.
Or I might just come back in tomorrow and open the mix that I was working on like during the day.
[00:45:47] Jillian: Have you always had,
[00:45:48] Aaron: up.
[00:45:49] Jillian: have you always had that amount of energy with young kids? Have you been doing that since they were both born, like going back out at night?
[00:45:56] Aaron: For the most Oh my God,
[00:45:57] Jillian: that's awesome.
[00:45:59] Aaron: I'm like very I'm a Virgo, so I'm very like organized and like data driven.
[00:46:04] Jillian: Yeah.
[00:46:04] Aaron: And so I've like messed around with different things and I've found that like, consistent sleep is more important to me than the amount of sleep. So like I used to sleep in on the weekends and I don't, now I get up at the same time, like every and I generally fall asleep around the same time and my body just like handles that better.
I'm not rested. I wouldn't say that at all. I can definitely still fall asleep like at
[00:46:24] Jillian: And you never will be.
[00:46:26] Aaron: But at the same time, I'm like, I'm functional and my body is used to that. and then with that, with like kind of data driven and just being aware of my creativity and my motivation and my drive. If I have the desire to like come out to the studio and continue to work on something, but I'm tired, I'll purposely lean into like more creative things than like achievement things, if that makes sense. So that might be a chance where it's like I save a new version of this mix and I'm just gonna like, kind of go into that weird dream state.
I'm kind of tired. I, definitely couldn't do like a math equation right now, but like I can chase what sounds cool and like maybe come up with new ways of getting to this sound that I probably wouldn't at like 10:00 AM after I just dropped off my kid. 'cause I have to go pick her up at two. Like, you know, And it's very like, structured.
I try to lean into that so all that to say like, I've definitely had struggles and I'm not flawless. I do struggle. I do feel like pendant and caged down. Like I hear you saying your husband's had that
[00:47:23] Jillian: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:24] Aaron: One thing that has helped me. And I, And I hold this like pretty strongly in myself and try to stay as clearly as possible, is to remember that this is a decision that I make.
'cause I don't want to resent having kids. I don't wanna resent the lack of time. I don't wanna resent being a parent. And so just leaning into like, we talked about it. Like, Neither of our kids are like, oops, children. Like, We planned having kids. we consciously made that decision.
Like we knew it was gonna be hard. Okay, this is what hard looks like and this is what sucks and it'll be fine eventually. But like, I wanna be a parent. I want to be there for my kids. I wanna show up, Do I wish that, like I could just have a studio that's open 24 hours if a band's here.
It's like, yeah, we record this at like four in the morning. Like, That'd be cool, but it also suck.
[00:48:04] Jillian: yeah,
[00:48:05] Aaron: You know what I mean? Like, I like cooking dinner for my kids. I like giving 'em a bath and putting 'em to bed and like getting up and like playing with them in the morning. That isn't gonna be around forever.
[00:48:13] Jillian: No,
[00:48:14] Aaron: I'm gonna enjoy that and yeah, it sucks that I can't do X, Y, and z that like some of my friends that are childless can do, but I'll get back to that
[00:48:21] Jillian: Yeah. And we're also like located in a geographic area
where everyone has a very unconventional lifestyle if
they don't have children, you know? So I think that's one thing that like, not that we like had to like cut friends out of our lives, but I was like, we do need to cultivate a community that has a similar lifestyle to
the one that we have, so that we don't feel like aliens all the time.
[00:48:43] Michaela: and something we still talk about of like, we have people we love, but our lives are so different now because our schedules are so different. our lives when we're home are so regimented. It can be somewhat flexible, but not really.
We have such a fixed schedule between like our traded times of which day, who works, when, and who does pickup and who does drop off. to get anything done, we've learned that we have to, and that's how we're able to make records. And I teach music and do the podcast and I just started grad school like, and go on tour and like all this stuff.
The only way is because we have a regimented schedule and that also means that you're gonna sacrifice things and we will have intentional conversations of like, we have to be intentional about. Our social lives, which is super hard for me because I wanna be included in everything. So it like pains me when, yeah.
[00:49:35] Aaron: I'm much more for her. I'm like, I don't need to go anywhere. Erin's like, I don't
[00:49:37] Michaela: need friends. And Oh
it hurt whenever anybody invites me anywhere. I'm like, thank you so much for thinking of me. And then like, oh, I'm so pained that I can't go because I have to take care of my kids. You know?
Mm-hmm. But you have to be really intentional about when you have children, you have only have so much time and resources, and if I have like one night a week, what am I gonna do with it?
[00:50:00] Jillian: Yes. I'm just amazed that you still wanna hang out with people. I'm, I'm like, maybe that comes when you have a second kid. I don't know, but
I'm definitely in talking about the sleep too, I am. Addicted to my sleep right
now. Like nothing comes between me and my sleep. Like whenever I can be sleeping and you know, I think, like you were just saying, Aaron, it's like this is not going to be forever.
he's going to leave me, he's gonna grow up and there's a long road ahead where all of those, the desires and the whims of my heart, I can just follow them whenever I want. And
like right now, it might not be that time, but you know, it's been really important for us to not feel completely left out and lonely all the time
that we do keep.
Connected to, certain people in our lives that really understand what it looks like to do this type of job and to also have, children because it can be very isolating and just, yeah, energy level change. And now I sound geriatric, but it's true. Like we're both just like,
we're reading books at eight o'clock at night.
You
know, we're not, we're not the young, sprightly kids we once were. and
sometimes we ment that, but
[00:51:05] Michaela: I love this phase of life. we have
[00:51:06] Jillian: oh yeah. Okay.
[00:51:08] Michaela: when Henry started sleeping in his own bed, and I didn't have to get in bed to sleep with him at like seven o'clock Aaron had some guys here recording and I was like, guys, I have a new lease on life because Henry's sleeping in a crib.
And so I get eight to 10 to myself, and they were like, Ooh, what are you doing? And I was like, drinking tea, doing the dishes, listening to a podcast
[00:51:32] Jillian: Totally. Oh my God,
your idea of thrill really changes. They're like, cool,
okay. Get it.
Yeah, no, I will. I am so excited for the day when I wanna watch a TV show again. I'm
like, I can't wait to meet that version of Jillian. She's gonna be like, Ooh, what do I wanna watch tonight? '
'cause right now it is not, I have no interest
at all. I just want peace and quiet, you
know? So,
[00:51:54] Aaron: Yeah. See, I need to get up in the morning to do that. I get up before everybody else. 'cause like it gives me a sense to be like,
[00:52:00] Michaela: oh, I'm a person, I'm human. Okay, cool. Mikayla was traveling this past weekend and our 4-year-old just every night like came and got in her spot in bed.
[00:52:09] Aaron: And so it was simultaneously like very cute and like very annoying. And she'd be like, Hey, dad's the time to wake up. Hey dad, to wake up now.
[00:52:16] Jillian: but what time was that at?
[00:52:17] Aaron: varying sometimes it was like seven 30, which is awesome. Other times it was five 30, which is less awesome.
But like She's not like a super early riser, but regardless, it's like waking up and immediately just like being responsible for another
[00:52:31] Jillian: Oh my gosh. I know.
[00:52:32] Aaron: just like sets my day in the wrong
[00:52:34] Jillian: Oh, totally. we have an alarm clock. Our son is our alarm clock, so I would have to wake up at 5:00 AM in order to get a head start on him. He's a six 15 guy every day, and he is Spider-Man by six 20, so
he's shooting webs in my face. He has a mask on a full body suit.
It's like a whole deal, which is like really fun. And also like you're saying, I'm like, okay, I'm here now. Okay,
let's do the day. Yeah.
Okay.
[00:53:00] Aaron: Here we go.
[00:53:01] Jillian: Yeah.
I'll miss these days though. I will
someday. yeah,
[00:53:05] Michaela: I think about that a lot. Anytime I'm like, oh, I just want a minute. I'm like also having a second kid, you have that hindsight of like, oh, I remember missing the, the newborn stage with the first one and all that stuff Mm-hmm.
It's, life
[00:53:17] Aaron: is just a patch of experiences. Yes. So
[00:53:19] Jillian: Oh, I love that.
[00:53:20] Aaron: and there'll be another one in a year and
[00:53:23] Michaela: definitely, you already kind of an, so we usually like end this conversation with choose one of the two questions and you already said what you would tell your younger self.
That's usually one of our
[00:53:33] Jillian: Mm-hmm.
[00:53:33] Michaela: which you said you'd tell yourself to enjoy whatever season you're in.
[00:53:37] Jillian: Yeah.
[00:53:37] Aaron: Yeah. Which is tie to full circle, kind like life is experiences just in, you know.
[00:53:42] Jillian: Beautiful. Totally. Yes.
[00:53:44] Aaron: the remaining question would be something that somebody has told you or that you read or that you heard, like advice from somebody else, or a sentence from somebody else, an observation from somebody else that still rings in your head and like adds fuel to your tank and resonates.
[00:54:00] Jillian: I would probably say, and this just came to mind actually, she just passed away. My grandmother she passed away like a month ago, and she was a college professor until she was like, no joke. I think she taught till she was 86. And she always said this to all of her grandkids. She had 27 of them, but she always said, be a lifelong learner.
And as a child, I didn't really understand that. I was like, I'll go to school and get my degree in whatever, but I see what she meant because if you are not in love with learning, not only about yourself, but also just about the world around you forever, you'll get really irritated because everything's constantly gonna be changing.
Your circumstances change. your idea of what things should be changed. And so adopting that motto of like, I am a lifelong learner. I'm constantly learning. I never have it figured out. I don't know what's gonna happen next and when it comes, I have to stay curious. that's probably the most helpful advice that I've been given.
[00:54:53] Michaela: Yeah. I love that.
[00:54:54] Jillian: she was very wise. that you and I need to learn technology.
Oh yeah. Actually, not when it comes to that though. Just with everything else, but not
[00:55:05] Aaron: I'll say that you guys have learned that you don't need to learn technology,
[00:55:08] Jillian: I've learned It's better to not even engage with
that.
[00:55:11] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:55:12] Jillian: true. Yeah.
Yeah
[00:55:14] Aaron: man. Jillian, thank you for taking time this afternoon to, chat with us
[00:55:17] Jillian: Of course. Thank you
guys. I appreciate it. It was so lovely to talk to you.
Alright, Julian. Take
Bye. See ya.