John Craigie is a singer-songwriter based out of Portland OR but who spent years living on the road, has released 12+ albums, and toured with the likes of Jack Johnson, Gregory Alan Isakov, Shawn Colvin, Sean Hayes and more. Craigie is known for his engaging live show that weaves a hefty dose of storytelling - in the vein of Arlo Gutherie - as well as comedy between his songs, so we send a lot of time talking about the art of storytelling and it's place in a concert, comedy, how he sustains such an intense tour schedule, drawing inspiration from communities of other artists such as painters and architects, debunking the optics fallacy and how finding the right venue for your show is much more powerful.
John Craigie is a singer-songwriter based out of Portland OR but who spent years living on the road, has released 12+ albums, and toured with the likes of Jack Johnson, Gregory Alan Isakov, Shawn Colvin, Sean Hayes and more. Craigie is known for his engaging live show that weaves a hefty dose of storytelling - in the vein of Arlo Gutherie - as well as comedy between his songs, so we send a lot of time talking about the art of storytelling and it's place in a concert, comedy, how he sustains such an intense tour schedule, drawing inspiration from communities of other artists such as painters and architects, debunking the optics fallacy and how finding the right venue for your show is much more powerful.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:04] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And since this show is not even one year old, which feels crazy, thank you so much for checking us out. If it's your first time here, if you're coming back, thank you for being a repeat listener.
[00:00:17] Aaron: Yeah, we know there are thousands if I heard millions of podcasts to choose from, we are humbled that we have so many repeat listeners and such an engaged community around this. This has been a goal for us from the beginning. So it's really humbling and fulfilling to see that really start to take flight.
since we have no backers, we have no sponsors, we have no ads. Chances are that you guys heard about our show via word of mouth. So if you could take a second and just pay that forward to somebody that doesn't listen to the show, maybe this is your favorite episode. Maybe it's a previous episode, but if you could just take one and share it with a friend that might dig it, we'd really appreciate that.
[00:00:55] Michaela: Yeah. And we're not your typical. We're not talking about your latest record or the tour that an artist is about to go on. We like to focus on the behind the scenes, off cycle times and talk about the human aspect of it all and how each person is finding their way to stay inspired, creative, and sane while building a career around their art.
[00:01:17] Aaron: Yeah, and we all know that there is so much that is outside of our control in this industry and we like to focus on... What is within our control, our circle of influence, if you will, and a lot of times that's our mindsets our creativity, our habits, and we approach our guests with a general question of what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity and this week's guest episode 40 is John Craggy and we had a great conversation with John that touched on a lot that is outside of music.
If you've seen John's show, he does a lot of out there and really weaves that kind of narrative of like, Arlo Guthrie comes up a lot in this episode of telling stories, related to music, related to life, related to living, and intertwining that with songs. And so we spent a lot of time getting to talk about, other forms of art, whether it's comedy, painting.
Architecture and how all of that kind of can influence you and your music and keep you inspired.
[00:02:18] Michaela: Yeah, and that word troubadour really comes to mind when I think of John Craigie, and he is on the road a lot. He's opened for so many great artists including Jack Johnson. Those are very big stages, Sean Colvin, Sean Hayes, Todd Schneider, Aoife O'Donovan and we talked a lot about what it's like to be on those different stages and how to adapt if necessary.
He's put out over 12 records, I think. So
[00:02:44] Aaron: he's... Including a couple cover records and live records. prolific is a word you could use.
[00:02:49] Michaela: Yeah. So there's a lot to take away from this conversation. And without further ado, we hope you enjoy our talk with John Craigie.
[00:02:58] Aaron: Thank you so much for being on this to start, where are you? Because when I talked to your manager, he sent me your whole tour schedule and was like, see if there's a time in there.
[00:03:07] Michaela: And I was like,
[00:03:07] Aaron: uh. Yeah, there's more holes in a block of Swiss cheese than there was in your tour schedule,
[00:03:12] John: Ooh, nice metaphor.
[00:03:13] Aaron: You can have it. Our welcome gift to you for being on the podcast.
[00:03:16] John: I am home right now. I have about five days off here in Portland before the next run.
[00:03:20] Aaron: Okay. Nice. Cool.It seems like you're just constantly on the road. So how do you keep that going? are you just one of those people that's where you get your energy is traveling and being in new places and doing that?
[00:03:31] John: I don't know, actually. not that hard to do, right? You just, move from one. Seat to the next, you know, a car seat. I think I get a lot of energy from the shows. I don't think I get much energy from the travel itself.
But that gets harder as I get older. but I really like to be able to talk to the crowd each night. You know, It makes me feel very inspired. I learn a lot, I feel like. It keeps my creative juices flowing. If I'm not touring Yeah, I'm not as inspired, I'm not as motivated and stuff.
But I think, I got a nice team, they are really good at booking the shows. And so, I don't have like, kids or anything like that, So I think they're just like, Do you want to play all these shows? I'm like, sure, what else am I going to do?
Yeah.
[00:04:07] Michaela: Totally. Are you one of those people that has a harder time coming off of tour? Like when you're in stillness and quiet at home?
[00:04:15] John: I think I used to, but I've been doing it so long now I've figured out the balance. I remember in the early days that being a weird thing. It's almost like, I wouldn't say an addiction, but like, uh, you go through these withdrawals of,
[00:04:27] Michaela: the post tour depression.
[00:04:29] John: Yeah, I think maybe the cure to that is to like, make it more part of your Just routine life.
I think in the early days, yeah, I would be like, I would do a tour and then I'd have to wait months or something maybe. Or the tour was like this like singular event. And I think what can end up happening is it, more becomes just like this ongoing event that you get breaks from. You know what I mean?
[00:04:48] Michaela: Yeah, versus this was a high, and I don't know when I'll get to have it again, and so then it feels sad, and I feel lonely, versus this is just what I do all the time, and now I get to have a break at home.
[00:04:58] John: this might be cheesy, but you could make a parallel to like a, Relationship, you know, in the beginning, you go on a couple of dates and you might be sad after the dates because you're like, I don't know if I'll see that person again, or I don't know, like what's going to happen.
And then eventually you become somewhat more committed and you're like, Oh yeah, it's okay. Maybe I need this break,
[00:05:15] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:05:17] John: you know? Yeah,
[00:05:17] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:05:18] Michaela: long term relationships, you're like, can I have some alone time?
[00:05:20] John: exactly. So I do think that actually the metaphor works out pretty good. So that, probably what's going on in there.
[00:05:26] Aaron: Yeah, do you have things that you do when you come home to kind of Shake off the road, you know in a way to like just maximize the rest of the things you found that Work really well for you
[00:05:36] John: Yeah, I really like to cook, so like just last night I made some soup. it would be very hard to do on the road, you know. gather all the ingredients and take the time and, take a bath. Read, listen to my vinyl. Watch like a long slow movie that I can really relax into.
And then I have a lot of houseplants
[00:05:51] Michaela: I was, literally just looking at your plants and I was like, how do you keep those alive? Yeah, how do you keep those going?
[00:05:57] John: yeah, I got a person or people that help me water. But then when I'm home, it's really nice to repot or reposition or propagate or trim, and so although I don't really feel the need anymore like to shake off the road or whatever. It is more like, again, just this sort of pause or this break and, you know, I think also to getting ready for the next one, assessing the stories I have and rethinking the show and the flow of the show and everything like that.
[00:06:21] Aaron: Do you change up the type of shows? Are you the kind of person that's like, I'm going to play X album from 2009 in its entirety or like whatever it is. Are there things like that you do to keep it fresh?
[00:06:31] John: I do a lot of storytelling and a narrative that goes through and that tends to be, developed, throughout the summer and then by fall it has some structure and then I would deliver that.
Similar to maybe what a comedian would do, I would, deliver that throughout. Those like, eight months of the normal tour. hmm. Mm somewhat retiring that by April or so. And then starting that over again. And as far as the songs go, yeah, it really depends on like, if I have a new record.There's certain songs I like to play most nights just cause seems like people want that. And then certain songs I try to bring back. It's, really funny in this modern day as a musician because When I was a kid, you'd go see a band. It was very obvious what were the three or four songs they should play, because based off of radio or based off of what the machine had like told us was the right ones.
But what I find now everyone discovers you from a different thing. there can be like a majority favorite song, but it's quite often that someone will be like, I can't believe you didn't play so and so. And you're like, nobody likes that
That was a deep, deep cut.But in their eyes for whatever reason like, that's what they found on some playlist or something.
And like, they assumed that was your big hit. I mean, that's not a bad thing. That's kind of like,fun thing. And it's fun to discover that. You also can kind of remember oh yeah like, this town really likes this song. sometimes you have a song that's like about a certain area or it's topical to that location.
[00:07:43] Michaela: Yeah. am so curious. I haven't gotten yet to see one of your shows. But I started hearing about you from Maya DeVitri.
[00:07:51] John: Oh, yeah.
[00:07:51] Michaela: she's a really close, long time friend of ours and she and I have written quite a few songs together but she was telling me just about your individualized approach to your performing and your career which I really admire because I'm someone who's always getting distracted like, oh well, should I be doing that?
Should I be doing that? And I've heard, the, talk about your show is that it's just as much storytelling and stand up comedy to a degree as much as it is about the songs. Has it always been like that for you or how did that evolve? Because I'm always so curious. I think it's interesting.
Everyone has such different opinions about how much musicians should talk or not on stage. And I remember like starting out younger and having bandmates telling me like, don't talk between songs. and I would be like, what?
[00:08:41] John: Yeah.
[00:08:43] Michaela: me a while to realize. And I've only recently been coming into it of, Oh no I'm, I'm not like a. Performer where I'm like entertaining like on a rock band, whatever I'm a storyteller and I tell stories through songs and also through actual Verbally telling the stories, I just hear so many different opinions about, oh, they say the same thing every night. Or they don't talk or they talk too much.
has that ever come into your mind? Or have you just been like whatever. I do what I do?
[00:09:10] John: Yeah, of course. when I was a kid, I really wanted to be a musician, but it wasn't like something that seemed that viable, just given like, my community and my talents that I seemed to be born with also at the time I started playing like the music I was listening to.
I was not aware of a lot of narration. I grew up in like the nineties and stuff. So I'd go to a lot of concerts like Pearl Jam that kind of like nineties rock, like Bush, third eye blind.
Oh yeah. . Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.
I would have seen at that time.And I think it was probably like, Cool to not talk at that time, so it just wasn't a thing that I saw.
Meanwhile like, there was the flip side of me as like a person socially that did a lot of comedic stuff like amongst my friend group. when I was a little kid I really wanted to be like a Seinfeld or something, so I had all that going, so I definitely was known as like the funny kid or I was the class clown or whatever you want to call it But music seemed like a very serious thing, which was fine too, cause I had all of that as well.
But I remember, I moved up to Santa Cruz and I started to see like a lot of Americana stuff. was like a scene up there. For that, I think it was probably Arlo Guthrie who I saw first, cause I just liked that music. his show was like mostly talking. And it was great, and it was like really cool the way he like weaved it together.
And I remember thinking like, Oh yeah, I could do that. And so in the beginning, actually I would do that. And my music wasn't all that great or memorable in the beginning. I wasn't that good at writing songs yet, but people will come up after the show and they'd be like that talking, that was nice. Keep that going, you know? and that was like, definitely came more natural to me. except for like the first couple of years. That was a huge part of it. Unfortunately, In the early days of touring like, I was doing a lot of background type gigs, you know, and I don't know if you guys went through this, but for me, it was, again, not coming from a place of really good musician world.
I would just travel around and play at coffee shops and bars and stuff. there was no time to talk then. So, Whenever I did get, like, a house concert or something like that, it was really cool. And I think I realized... Quickly like, that's what was gonna turn heads, not me singing The Boxer in a coffee shop that no one's gonna give a fuck.
But,
[00:11:11] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:11:12] John: Yeah.
[00:11:12] John: a musician talk or not, it is a delicate thing. Because, some people good at it, some people are really bad at it, not to say that anyone shouldn't do anything, but I'm sure we've all been to shows where like, this person should probably stop talking.
Yeah.It's a very delicate moment up there, you know, with everyone listening to youand a lot of people just free flow it and Some people are very good at that. You know, I just did a run with My friend Brett Dennon and he is very different than me in that. he just talks great and amazing and it's really loose it's very impressive.
But then there's other people I think sometimes I've seen where I'm like, you're digging a hole Yeah.
[00:11:42] Aaron: And you tour mostly solo, is that correct? Or in like a duo or something?
[00:11:47] John: Yeah, mostly solo. I'm actually about to do a run with three other people backing me up. But in general, yeah, solo I think makes the most sense for that kind of music.
[00:11:54] Aaron: I was just gonna ask do you find that when you're with a larger band on stage, that you talk less? as a side man, it seems to be like, I play in bands and the thing in especially like rock bands or something it's like Oh, let's play at least three or four songs until we say something and I was just wondering if There's a difference in that approach for you
[00:12:11] John: the backing people might like it if I talk less. But,
Yeah
It's at the point now where I do feel like that's an important part of the show. And especially like,I was saying before, you kind of establish a certain set of stories that you're going to work through. definitely feel less like pressured to.
I think that's what happens a lot is that when people who are in bands all of a sudden are solo on stage, they're trying to fill the space a little bit with a story. So for me, I done shows where I'm like, oh yeah, could not say something.
There's like more going on.
The only time that's really happened is like a couple of festival gigs I've done late night with a bigger band, which I just did a couple of those this summer. It didn't make any sense because it was like in a full rock setting and that we just would have been like hard to, I feel very subtle when I'm talking.
I don't feel very what's up New York,
[00:12:55] Aaron: Yeah,
[00:12:56] John: And I do like need some sort of level of like attentiveness or mellowness from the crowd. if that makes sense.
[00:13:00] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. That's something I love about live music there's this like real dance between the audience and who's on stage. And for me, a lot of like talking on stage and all that is drawing the audience in more. Which takes, attentiveness. It takes a certain energy in the room for them to be open to that.
So then when you get on like a festival stage or something like that, just because of the setting, there's disconnect in a way that you have to meet them where they're at for it to be effective, I think.
[00:13:27] John: Yeah, it's harder in the summer for sure. Yeah.
[00:13:29] Aaron: Yeah,
[00:13:30] Michaela: how do you handle, adapting? Again, like so much what I've read about you and in preparing this is that your ethos is, okay, I know what I do, and my job is to find the right settings for what I do, rather than, this is the gig, I'll do what this gig calls for.
When you're in a position where it is what it is, like if you're an opener or whatever and the room is difficult or loud, how do you adapt in real time and make decisions? Do you sometimes say like, I'm telling my story no matter what? Or do you? Mm hmm.
[00:14:02] John: I really try to work with my agents to avoid things like that. You know what I mean? Of course it's going to happen. it can be very challenging and I'm not. Like a great shusher or whatever, you know what I mean? there are some like mathematical things on your side.
Like for example, I always feel like there's like a majority thing going on. if you're doing a show and 3 percent of the audience is talking, you can do whatever you want to do, whether you want to be snappy or funny about it.
You can probably quiet those people down simply by pointing out the majority of the situation. You know what I mean?
[00:14:32] Aaron: if it's the opposite, if 97 percent are talking and 3 are quiet, you can't really do that, you know, because you have no precedence, right? You can't be like, hey, look at these 3 people, they're being quiet,
[00:14:41] John: Yeah.
for example, like I was in Madison, Wisconsin last month it was like a sold out show, it was great, and like, there were like 3 people talking. And, it was pretty easy to just, I was kind of being cute about it. and I think that's all it took was just them being like, Oh yeah, you're right.
This is a quiet thing. Sorry. But, yeah, if it is a situation where, it hasn't happened in a long time, but it was just like a 97 percent then I would probably just accept that and just play the songs, I think the hard thing really sometimes is, This happens more like when you're opening, and you have maybe some people came to see you and then they really want this thing, but like you cannot deliver it.
That can be disappointing for me, I think. But again, that doesn't happen that often. I think an artist just has to be pretty like vigilant and attentive to where you're putting yourself when you're at that level. In the beginning it's like, whatever go wherever.
[00:15:29] Michaela: That's awesome though that you've been able to build a
team that are on the same page with your vision which seems like, yeah, of course everybody should have a team, but that can actually be really challenging of finding the right.
agent, manager who really understands your specific approach and where to try and find the right opportunities versus this is the channel we have, this is what we do, we just do it with every artist. Did that take some time for you?
[00:15:57] John: Definitely. I think also too, just because I'm not trying to say like what I'm doing is, like extremely unique, but, it's not the normal, I don't think. And so it took a while for yeah, anyone in the industry to sort of, understand the importance of that aspect of the show. You know what I mean? once somebody sees it, I think. It's not that hard, but I do think it's really hard to explain to sometimes an agent for example, like okay, let's say there's a thousand people
They're about to go see someone The thought is like, no matter what musician you are, that's going to be a good thing, right? But there's like many scenarios where that's not a good thing, let's say it was like Slayer audience or something, or Megadeth It might be packed, but like, that's probably not the best place for me to play. In fact, it's probably going to be pretty bad,
[00:16:33] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:16:35] John: Or they're talking, or they're drunk, I think that is, hard for all of us to sort of wrap our head around in the beginning, right?
Because we just think Ooh, I'd love to play Red Rocks. we get so obsessed sometimes with either venue or the like, optics and realistically, hopefully, most people learn that those things actually don't matter and there's more subtle and specific things that matter more.
[00:16:54] Michaela: Yeah. I think when you start to realize, oh, bigger isn't better, that, there's more value sometimes in playing, or a lot of times especially in opening positions, playing for a room of 200 captivated people versus being like background music as people find their seats at Red Rocks.
I mean, this is like a total like nitty gritty logistical thing, but I didn't start doing this until the last year until I was opening for a band and saw their merch. I sell my own merch when I'm opening well all the time but I saw their merch person at the end of the night did a like calculation of how much merch per head they sold
and I started doing that and I was like oh wow that's pretty awesome because it makes even like the smallest of shows if you sold a lot of merch you start to feel like oh that was maybe even more impactful than that bigger show.
And again, this is like one of the motivations of this podcast of trying to contribute to the conversation of, everybody kind of shifting and personally discovering what are the,things of value and what are the ways that we define success for ourselves when we're sharing our experiences.
Bye. Bye. Living our entire life as professional musicians and not just the kind of surface level ideas that we might start out with of what we think being successful is. that's one of the reasons I thought you'd be such a great, interesting guest because it seems like you're someone who's been really crafting out your thing.
[00:18:17] John: Yeah, thank you.
[00:18:18] Aaron: I kind of wanted to get back to you.Talking about that.
was wondering if you could just tell us more about how that came about. Did you have to go through different agents, go through different managers at all? Or did they influence each other and through having agents find correct rooms for you, did you kind of stumble upon like, oh, this is mything.
Does that make sense? Was it kind of symbiotic
[00:18:41] John: Um, I
think really the most like beneficial thing, although it was, I wouldn't recommend it, but for the longest time I just did it myself like I said, I wasn't really generating the likebuzz or income that would attract anyone. But what that did for me was like really established, like what I know works and what I want on stuff.
I see a lot of people who, when it all happens really fast, they don't know what they want. And you can't always trust. An agent or a manager to just do everything, some people are really good at that, but some people will apply, one of their other clients system to you.
so once I got the management, I knew him and he was great. And I was able to sort of express to him what I wanted, which was, you know, which wasdifferent. Cause I think he had worked with a lot of like bluegrass and jam bands.
It took some time there, luckily I'd already had most of my routing laid out and most of the rooms I wanted And then the booking agency was kind of likewe brought him into the situation and we're like, this is what we're doing. This is what we would like help with and stuff like that.
And I think mostly I just got lucky with just like they're great guys and great work ethic and really, yeah. Good listeners and they're on it and they make it happen, really want, is people who justget what you're trying to do. you're all learning with each tour and with each year,
[00:19:51] Aaron: yeah. it's kind of developed as it's gone, and tightened down a little bit. That's great. That's an approach we hear from a lot of people and maybe it wasn't the first try or the second try, but the more grounded they are in what they want and what suits their vision the most. The more successful they are, success being finding a good team, finding rooms that are comfortable and fulfilling and all of that,
[00:20:18] John: yeah,
[00:20:18] Michaela: Can you talk about your relationship to writing with being on the road versus when you're home and what that's like for you?
[00:20:27] John: for me in writing, What doesn't work for me is like the I want to write a song or I'm going to go. like a cabin and pound out a few, I suppose that could work for me. Like I could probably generate something, but I've never enjoyed that process, nor has it felt like worthwhile.
I do think that the lyrics are like the most interesting part or the most important part of what I'm doing. So, That can be a really hard thing to force. if you said like, write great lyrics right now, I don't think I could do that, but, if you were, like, come up with something really pretty, that feels a little more like, structural, I could possibly like, get to work on that, so anyways, what can happen for me sometimes, and when I can buckle down, is if I have, 10 songs and they're all just like need a couple of lines to finish them. You know what I mean? Or they need a verse or whatever. that's the work that I would do.
But in general, I find that I'm most inspired on the road and I get most of my ideas from the road. And then when I have that time, usually like after soundcheck, like the two hours or so before,
I go on. That's a nice time for me. I'm with my guitar. Usually if I'm by myself on the road, my tour manager's in another room or whatever, that's when I feel like I do get most of my writing done and work done.
like I said, at home, unless I feel really pressured it's not my most creative space. Not to say that I wouldn't get an idea in that situation. Depends on like how social I'm being or how tapped in I am, but what I can do when I'm home is sort through the voice memos and the notes.
And I have a detailed way of arranging all of that, getting myself ready for when, whatever it does strike, I can access those. it's usually like that pre show time is really, I think where I'm, best at it. I've tried some like writing retreat stuff.
I've tried Some other things, even co writing, but it can be pretty challenging to uh, whatever that thing is where you are like, I don't want to say forcing it because that has a negative connotation, but whatever, a nicer way of saying that is,
[00:22:14] Michaela: But I have friends who are amazing.
[00:22:15] John: Like they will rent the cabin, come back a week later and have really great songs. So it's not something that I would, ever knock or discourage. I think it's really, obviously you just find your, way, you
[00:22:25] Michaela: for whatever reason, I find it really fascinating to learn everyone's different approach because you just continually learn there's no one way to be creative or to create work then record and build a livelihood on. I love retreats I just did a retreat last week and I like doing them alone, but I also like doing them With a group of people I do it with like a few girlfriends that are songwriters and we make a very Specific schedule and we're like, okay 930 we do Object writing and then we meditate and we like are just doing this for ourselves and holding each other accountable Which feels Like, I'm able to access, my writing ability more than when I'm at home.
Even before we had a kid, now it just feels like writing at home there's so much to do. There's so much laundry and like, you know,and cause I also know people who are like, I can never write on the road. It's impossible to write on the road because my mind is going to too many things, but is it different when you have a band with you?
[00:23:27] John: Yeah, probably it's hard to define those like alone times. And I think sometimes to one thing that can happen is like you're maybe you're less adventurous not to say that like all songs have to come from some sort of weird interaction on the road. but yeah, I think with a band you might be more insular.
not looking out as much at what's happening around you. it will be like this next month I'm doing a tour. They're my friends also, so it will be like less of that time backstage where I'm like, alone with my notebook and that's fine. You know what I mean?
And
I don't feel like a lot of pressure to like keep churning stuff out. It seems to come there might, be, a time when. And that isn't the case, I look forward to that in a way being more creative with I have to do it, you know what I mean?
[00:24:07] Michaela: do you ever feel business pressure? Of like, shit, I need to make a new record soon.
[00:24:12] John: No I've been lucky in that it seems to be symbiotic with what the normal amount of writing one should do. You know what I mean? I don't feel like I'm one of those people who has too many songs, you know? I have some friends who Who have like an album every two months if they wanted to, you know, I don't feel like those people who, don't have enough.
I don't think my team like would work in that way, but probably if I didn't have something for like five years. what's nice with the live aspect, I'm able to put out live records, as well. I mean, I do, I worry sometimes aboutthe bits, the stories, those I'm have more pressure and stress about than the songs themselves.
You know what I mean?
Oh, interesting.
just because I really feel like that needs to be fresh every, nine months or so. And I can't really keep repeating those. now I'm not saying I'm at this level, but I do think that a musician can definitely get to a level. If you have a, Two or three songs that people like, you could probably milk for a while, you know what I
Mm hmm.but storytelling aspect, which I do think people are interested in coming to the show for that. every June when I start the summer and know that like my job this summer is to essentially develop eight or nine new stories, bits.
I always have this moment of like, I don't think it's going to happen. And even like, the night before the first show in September when I'm supposed to debut all these things, I'm like, this seems like it's not going to work, you know. So, that is what keeps it interesting, I think, for me.
Like, I talk to some friends who get a little bored touring. I think what I can offer them is like, when you do storytelling, there's some sort of element of like, comedy. It does keep the show really interesting because if we all know this, like a song has its natural reaction, right? The clap and sometimes it's bigger than others.
And sometimes you might be like, Oh, that really landed. But when you're doing the storytelling, like it really is, there's no guarantee. You could be having an amazing show, like with an amazing crowd and something just won't land. And so there is always that moment of risk at the beginning of every story.
That is very exciting. And it's also just really fun after the show to be like, Oh, they really like this. Or like my tour manager a couple nights ago was like, Wow, they didn't laugh at blankety blank, which is like always a laugh. And I was like, I
[00:26:09] Aaron: Thanks, man.
[00:26:10] John: Yeah, no it's, it's great. I mean, I'm at the point now where like you do it enough times, like a bomb is kind of fun. You're like, Ooh, that one, I wonder why that didn't land. Did I put the emphasis on the wrong syllable? And so anyway, yeah, I think that's, I know that's a little off the topic of what you asked but yeah, that part, is way more interesting to me, and there's a lot more subtlety within the bits I found than necessarily with the song.
I don't Yeah. Bold statement, but yeah.
[00:26:32] Michaela: No, I love that stuff because I feel like there's such an underestimation from some musicians, maybe, of, What a practice and art it is to tell a story and develop the pacing and where, like you said, the emphasis on syllables, I mean, obviously there's a whole moth radio hour is dedicated to this type of work and developing how to tell a story, but are your stories attached to your songs?
Are they like in a flow of being some story behind the song or to introduce a song or are they standalone? different vignettes?
[00:27:09] John: Sometimes, but I would say not that often. More often there will be some event that happens to me that I think is funny and informative that has to do with me, and probably like my career, not necessarily the song.
and people like that What I really like doing is like coming up with like an actual, just like observational comedy bit, you know what I mean? what's the deal with this? You know, Or whatever. Not that generic, of course. But, that's like my favorite.
That, I think, sometimes is tougher to land because, again it's, a little more outside of the, box, you know? in the sense of, like, what a narrative songwriter would be doing. But it can work, usually then I have to sort of figure out a way. to tie it in with the song
I found that that gets a better laugh. on this current tour, I have this like bit that I came up with about the process of buying edibles in the current era versus like when I was a kid, and that's very much laid out in like a very standard, likecomedic way that really could have nothing to do with my music.
Of course, it's like a, classic. It used to be like this, now it's like this. and you're comparing the two. and it was getting laughs fine, but once I found a way to sort of weave it into the song I was about to play, it worked better, and I don't know if that's just something that's like, familiar, or the fact that I'm not a comedian, so people are probably like, eh, is he trying to do that thing, you know, and so I think if you can keep it reined in, into sort of the realm of like a concert, it can work better, but that's like some microscopic stuff that don't want to bore you guys,
[00:28:32] Aaron: I love it. I love this stuff. Yeah. I was just going to ask if. comedy was something that you studied, maybe not, formally, but like, you listen to stand up on the road? you know, like I spend most of my time in the studio producing records.
so like I inadvertently, when I listened to a record, my head is picking apart how they made the record, how they made the arrangements and stuff like that. Does that happen to you when you're listening to comedy or you're listening to moth radio hour or something like that?
[00:28:56] John: For sure. And I remember as a kid, I was, always doing that with the limited standup that I could digest as a, child, whether it be like Seinfeld, George Carlin. Like, I'm trying to think of people that were like Creating recorded stand up at the time. I mean it's not very fun to talk about, but like, there was like a lot of Bill Cosby records at the time.
But I remember when like, Napster came out, I was able to like, download A lot of random, Lewis Black, Dane Cook, I'm trying to think, there was like a lot of like, early 2000s comedians that had just put a ton of their shows up on LimeWire or whatever, Napster.
And what was cool about that is I would hear like the same bits told at different shows, different nights, and that's when I really started to watch, Oh, okay, this one got a bigger laugh simply because he put it this way or he emphasized this or he screamed it instead of, whispered it. then I would see people like Todd Snyder, Arlo Guthrie Greg Brown, Lauda Wainwright, these other musician guys who were doing this.
I would see them tell a story twice and be like, oh, okay, this is cool. So, Yeah, in that sense, I studied it immensely.
[00:29:54] Aaron: That's cool. I really respect that. it is such a thing just like spoken word and being an orator, and how you deliver it. I think there's a lot of parallels to delivering a song, in the same way.
[00:30:07] Michaela: And again, I feel like it's underestimated of how much work goes into that craft of how, when you watch Netflix comedy specials, those comedians are not just like naturally standing on stage and saying that stuff for the first time.
A lot of times they've been touring for a long time to develop those bits. you know, Obviously like the milk carton kids, kenneth and Joey come to mind of, they, work on that stuff. They're hilarious, but they're studies of comedy and they love that and they develop their storytelling.
So yeah, I feel like it's just another art art form. Yes. Art form.
[00:30:42] Aaron: Yeah. Uh, I wanted to pick up on a couple of little nitty gritty things like the cycle development of your shows and basically kind of like you have a new show that debuts like in the fall.
I think you said, you mentioned like September. Is that intentional? Are you like the fall is when you present a new thing? Mm
[00:30:58] John: I mean,
It's intentional only in the sense of like, that's the beginning of, like, the general touring that I do, which is in clubs and stuff like that. And summer tends to be a good time to sort of like, workshop, generate, because I'm doing festivals, which means I'm talking less on stage, which means I'm like giving like the highlights of the best of from the previous
[00:31:17] Aaron: hmm. Mm
[00:31:18] John: But meanwhile, like more stuff is happening. I'm doing like weirder things in the summer like, festivals. so I'm getting more, Ideas then and I have more time I'm hanging and being more social, I guess, and hanging out with more people. it seems to be like a good time to sort of like reset everything.
And
[00:31:32] Aaron: Yeah,
[00:31:32] John: uh, yeah, because like between September and May in general, I will go to like most of the places I go to once. I suppose if I did it in January, it'd be fine. But then of course, like there would be some sort of weird lag because then. I guess just September is the beginning of the cycle, if that makes
[00:31:49] Aaron: Yeah,seems to be that people look at the year in two ways. There's either like the calendar year and it starts in January or there's like the school year and it starts in September. Like we are the opposites. I think January starts the year for me and she's always like, Oh, that was last year, and she's just talking about May, like the
[00:32:03] Michaela: end of the school year.
Yeah, I've always thought in school year. Now you have to get on the same
[00:32:07] Aaron: page because you have a kid. Yeah, we have a daughter in school, so I gotta get on that page. Finally!
[00:32:11] John: Yeah, I think as a musician, to me it makes more sense to look at it from September September, in the sense and that's me specifically, but I do think summer is such a different thing than the rest of the year when it comes to being a musician.
I just think that. I know people who like, summer is everything, right? They're like a party festival band, and that's like the hot time. And the rest is mellow. Or most people that do what I do, summer is like chaos, weird. Some people hide, you know, and then September it's like, okay, to get back to work.
[00:32:37] Aaron: Yeah, I love viewing the summer and like, festival season and all that as a greatest hits of the show that has developed throughout the year. I think I see it with like, much larger have like, a much larger show production where they almost use the summer to debut that production.
And, you know, they've probably spent a good chunk of the spring developing that, doing actual production rehearsals and all of that. And then they use those festivals to then basically like, project that to their audience and then they can go and hit the individual markets after that,
[00:33:05] John: yeah, especially if you're a headliner, I think for me At a festival, you're playing a shorter set, you're playing to like a lot more new people, it makes sense to have it be more of a condensed greatest hits, whatever you want to call it, like best of the
[00:33:16] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:33:16] John: Me, if I was like Kendrick Lamar or something like that would make more sense.
Yeah, this is going to be the beginning actually. because you're obviously going to have probably most of your fans are going to be there. And
[00:33:25] Aaron: Yeah, you got the biggest font on the poster, and...
[00:33:27] John: for sure. Yeah.
[00:33:28] Aaron: Yeah. Do you release albums along that schedule as well? Knowing hey, I've got this one coming out, or do they just kinda,
[00:33:34] John: Those are much more random. I have a new record coming out in January. I guess I tend to release records usually early in the year. Although it would maybe make more sense to release them in September. But, I think there is some weird industry notion of it's good to release stuff in the first or second quarter because then you get a longer...
This is going to sound so stupid and business y. But I think there's some truth to the fact that if I release a record in December... Then, by January, it does look like it's a year old. Does that make
[00:34:00] Michaela: Right. Yeah, Yeah.
[00:34:01] John: Mm hmm. Yeah. I don't think that matters that much. And I don't think people care that much.
But I guess there's probably something to that. But, yeah, so January, February, or March, tend to be like when things are popping out for me.
[00:34:12] Aaron: I imagine there's somefreedom in there in having this kind of like perpetual tour cycle that you have. There is freedom to kind of releaserecords on their own cycle.
[00:34:23] John: Totally. Totally.
[00:34:24] Michaela: Can you talk a little bit about like, How much the business stuff does have to come into play for you of balancing being on your path, being dedicated, and then also navigating the ups and downs of the business and does that stuff ever feel challenging?
does it ever like dictate your emotions and then what do you do to help that or are you pretty steadfast and that's going to be what it's going to be and I'm going to just keep going?
[00:34:50] John: Well, I really don't like the business aspect at all, but I think as you go, you have to somewhat find your piece with it. And I think you have to figure out like what works for you and what doesn't. I think that's a big confusion that like a lot of musicians will get into right where they're like oh, I read somewhere that you're supposed to do this, or you're supposed to, you know what I mean?
And that's fine, and there's nothing wrong with reading those things, but,
[00:35:11] Michaela: yeah, you gotta figure out what is good for you, and I think, do those things, and it takes time to figure that so I think I have, somewhat figured out the things that I like and what I don't like so then it's fine. You just like tap business into your thing and, find out, yeah, how you can use it to your advantage, I don't think you can just completely avoid it if you want to like play the game and be in the music business or whatever.
[00:35:34] John: But I also think it can really mess with your head and really be unhealthy.
[00:35:37] Michaela: have you learned ways if you've ever Had moments where it kind of messes with your head of how to combat that or re center and
[00:35:45] John: Yeah, I think again, always just to be like, why am I doing this? What do I enjoy about this? I don't have to do this. You know what I mean? There is no rule like, there is no boss. I think sometimes people also, especially when they're younger, forget that their team works for them as opposed to like they work for their team.
It can be, it hard to like forget that. You know what I mean? I think a good team doesn't necessarily mean for it to feel that way, but it can just feel that way, right? And I'm sure there's probably other businesses where that also feels that way, right? Where you're the boss and you're like, all of a sudden, you've got a team of people, lawyers and stuff like that, and maybe you might feel pressured.
So I think, that's the most important thing is like, it's your ship,it can do anything. it can stop for five years and... Start back up again, and everything's fine, and everyone will understand. That's something that I think has helped me a little bit, I've tried to help other friends who are struggling with that.
[00:36:32] Aaron: Yeah, that's really great. I try to impress that upon people too. And I think, The conclusion I've come to is that, before you've ever had... you know, the opportunity to have a manager or an agent, you see your friends or idols or whatever it is that have this team and you see these opportunities that inherently open for them because that's the team's job is to get these opportunities for you that inherently puts them in the place of being like a gatekeeper, so like when you do find a team, you do find somebody inside with somebody, it feels like, inside the gate.
They let me in, And it's not that. Yesyou got to a spot that whatever you have attracts those kind of people, but it's what you have that you're offering that attracts them.
[00:37:10] John: Yes.
[00:37:11] Michaela: but the power dynamic is really tricky until you get to a certain level, whatever that level is, but where, again, like you said your, agent, your manager are working for you, but so many people Spend the very beginning of their career and middle end of their career trying to get those people and then once you have them, it's like, please don't leave me like, please still want to work for me.
[00:37:38] John: And especiallyif you get big fast and you don't know what's going on, and you get some bigger... Yeah, I could see why they would be like, this is what you gotta do. And you would know not to, you know. still at that point, you have to ask yourself like, what are you doing?
But I think there are probably times in, musicians where they're like, I'll do whatever. And that's cool too, if you wanna, but I think that they probably aren't that bummed out about the biz at that point,
[00:37:58] Michaela: Yeah. Maybe they will be.
[00:38:00] John: Exactly. Oh, they will be.
[00:38:03] Michaela: They definitely will be at some point. Yeah.
[00:38:05] John: Yeah.
[00:38:06] Michaela: Cool. one last question on my end. Yeah, go for it. what are things besides music that help you stay in love with music?
[00:38:15] John: Yeah. Like I was saying before, cooking, hiking, Reading like going to museums, learning about other art or other history stuff I think, yeah, taking that little break from it makes you feel like, Oh yeah, I'm in one of those clubs too.
And I can go back and add to that. Or I was just talking to someone a few weeks ago about Frank Lloyd Wright. And they were telling me, I didn't realize this, but like a lot of the houses he made are now museums. And they're just like, they are a place you can go.
And there's one like an hour south. And I was like, I want to go down and do a day trip to look at that and wander through that house. And that's a very small example of those things, I think. Plus a here in Portland, like on Thursday or Friday, I'll be going on a waterfall hike, you know?
And, so I'm very lucky. like when I'm home, that's another. Thing that I'm definitely going to be doing is just wandering in the forest and, that's a good reset, I think.
[00:39:00] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. You said something in there about looking at different forms of art, and being able to step away and be like, oh I'm in a club like that too. Can you expand on that a little bit more?
[00:39:11] John: Sure. I think like I went to the Louvre this last fall. I was in Paris at some days off and, it's really awesome. Obviously it's really like, there's so many cool paintings in there I was like reading some painting and it was like.
The impact it had on this, community or whatever. And the statement that was made and I was like, Oh, that's so cool. They could like take a paintbrush and like make this impact. And then I was like, Oh yeah, I'm in similar field. You know what I mean?
[00:39:36] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:39:36] John: I can do that.
this was like somewhat of a political statement. You know, it's like, Oh yeah, I can. I'm grateful I'm in that job, I'm not a painter, but, you feel that kinship with whoever, it's really cool.
[00:39:46] Aaron: I agree too. I, feel that, The only phrase that comes to mind is like healthy competition. And I don't mean the word competition at all, but that community respect for what your group of friends, your peers are doing and being like, Oh, check out, that little bit that Kenneth and Joey came up with.
Is really cool. And the way their show is flowing is really cool and drawing inspiration from that and being like cool I'm gonna work my show and using that as a kind of positive seesaw Something that's really great
[00:40:16] John: Yeah, the greatest cure for writer's block I always say is just go to someone else's show.
anytime I've felt stifled or, even if I haven't, going to someone else's show, almost always, I get something, get expired and Oh,
[00:40:27] Aaron: makes you
[00:40:28] Michaela: want to write
[00:40:28] John: C. Yeah, totally. and sometimes it's not a show.
Maybe it's a museum or it's a architectural house or it's watching a Scorsese film or whatever, you know, somehow,it's just someone else's art. We should hopefully motivate you.
[00:40:41] Aaron: Yeah. Respect for the level that it's at. like you said, the impact that it's made is really inspiring to
[00:40:47] Michaela: me.correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your approach to community is also, very inclusive of your audience. That your audience is the community and not just your community of other artists, but of those receivers as well in that exchange.
[00:41:04] John: Yeah, I mean it's been said before it's not my statement, but like the audience this day is the record label it is the true like Conglomerate of like your shareholders if you will you know what I mean and so like they so important and such a big part of it these days to you know like their feedback Their energy them buying the t shirt and then them spreading the word.
You know,and usually in this day and age, you get familiar with them, right? you see them show after show, or they write you these cool things about stories from their experience with your music especially in the early days when like, I would just have like five people in each town that would, hmm. Mm hmm. care of me.
But it, grew so slowly it's really nice. I still feel in touch with that.
[00:41:43] Michaela: Yeah I know not everybody likes that closeness. I personally really love it and have fans that I just think that's so cool of I have somebody who still comes to my shows who randomly came to like a DIY art space the very first time I ever played in DC and he's followed me showed up at shows every and not in a weird way and like a really pure, just supportive, fan way.
I think that part is really cool. more so than if you're like shielded from the people who receive your music. I love that connection.
[00:42:16] John: me too. That's awesome.
[00:42:17] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:42:18] Aaron: Yeah. Well, This is a great spot to kind of wrap up our conversation. We really appreciate you carving out time in your morning hang with us to share your, insights and your thoughts and all of that.
[00:42:27] John: Thank you so much. Yeah, me too.
[00:42:28] Aaron: Yeah. I
[00:42:29] Michaela: hope to catch you anytime you come through Nashville. Yeah.
[00:42:32] John: Yeah, I should be there soon. I'm sure they, put me there, so. Mm hmm.
[00:42:37] Michaela: I'll keep an eye out. I literally went through your whole tour schedule.
[00:42:40] John: Yes, yes.
[00:42:41] Aaron: John, it was great to, sit with you and talk to you and get to meet you a little bit more.
[00:42:44] John: See you soon. Yeah.
[00:42:45] Aaron: Yeah. All right. Take
[00:42:46] John: care.
Bye.