Larry Campbell and Teresa Williams have released 4 albums as a duo, and were members of Levon Helm's band for over a decade, but the married couple also have a long musical history prior to becoming a formal duo. In addition to producing Levon's later career Grammy-winning records, Larry has played with Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Elvis Costello, Emmylou Harris, Judy Collins, Willie Nelson, Shania Twain, and Tracy Chapman, to name a few. We have a great conversation about being in it for the joy of getting to make music, balancing being members of large-scale tours (including a great story of them on the road with Jackson Browne), prioritizing self care vs being a workaholic, and the Tao of Levon.
Larry Campbell and Teresa Williams have released 4 albums as a duo, and were members of Levon Helm's band for over a decade, but the married couple also have a long musical history prior to becoming a formal duo. In addition to producing Levon's later career Grammy-winning records, Larry has played with Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Elvis Costello, Emmylou Harris, Judy Collins, Willie Nelson, Shania Twain, and Tracy Chapman, to name a few. We have a great conversation about being in it for the joy of getting to make music, balancing being members of large-scale tours (including a great story of them on the road with Jackson Browne), prioritizing self care vs being a workaholic, and the Tao of Levon.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your host, Michaela Anne. And we are in the second year of The Other 22 Hours. So excited to still be here. And so thankful for you being here with us.
[00:00:21] Aaron: Yeah. A couple things before we jump into today's episode.
even a small show like ours takes a lot of work to put together. And so far it's just Michaela and I and our editor. So with that, we just kindly ask for your support in growing this show. The easiest way to do that is to follow and subscribe on your listening platform of choice. Or on YouTube.
The second thing would be to take your favorite episode and just pass it along to somebody that doesn't know about our show or slip it on the van when you're on tour. And finally, if you really want to take a big step, we have a Patreon where we offer basically some more ways to connect with this community and to grow our understanding of Our creativity and how to do this in a sustainable way. So you can find a link to that in the show notes, and we'd love to see you over there.
[00:01:04] Michaela: And one thing that we really pride ourselves on with these conversations is that they are just that conversations.
We're not music journalists. We are professional musicians ourselves. So this is a time to have a really honest, sharing of the realities of what it's like to build a career around your art.
[00:01:23] Aaron: the realities are that most of it is outside of our control.
And so we decided to try to focus on what it is within our control, and that is our headspace, our mindsets, our creativity, our approach. And we distill that down to the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity? And with that, we got to ask the great Larry Campbell and Teresa Williams that question today.
[00:01:47] Michaela: Yeah, this was one of those conversations that I was probably holding back tears multiple times. Oh, like this.
[00:01:52] Aaron: Yeah. Of course.
[00:01:54] Michaela: They are, legends in the music world. Legends to us, personally. They are a married couple. Teresa is from Tennessee. Larry's from New York. Larry has played in Bob Dylan's band.
They both together played and leave on Helms band for Yeah, a decade. Larry is Grammy winning musician who's played with Judy Collins, Linda Thompson, Cheryl Crowe, Willie Nelson, Paul Simon, Elvis Costello, Emmylou Harris, Roseanne Cash, Shania Twain, and as of recently, he played with Tracy Chapman on the Grammys.
[00:02:25] Aaron: And they were just out with Jackson Brown a couple years ago like, as the two of them. And they were singing duets with Jackson Brown. And they sure are great. Teresa talks
[00:02:32] Michaela: about being a guest, was it with Further?
[00:02:34] Aaron: Yeah. Further.
[00:02:35] Michaela: Singing at Madison Square Garden, but loving singing in a tiny little 50 cap room just as much.
[00:02:42] Aaron: This is all such a grounding conversation about making art for art's sake and focusing on that. And letting the rest happen as much as you can while still meeting your bills. can tell that both Larry and Teresa have lived a lot in the music world in the world in general, and they were just very generous and open with that experience in this conversation.
[00:03:08] Michaela: Yeah. It's beautiful. We're excited to share. So we will do just that. This is our conversation with Larry Campbell and Teresa Williams.
[00:03:15] Theresa: hello nice to see you.
[00:03:17] Larry & Theresa: Well, thank you, guys.
[00:03:19] Theresa: The title is priceless. Yeah Priceless.
[00:03:23] Michaela: Oh, good.
[00:03:24] Theresa: So obviously you guys have a long career that we'd love. to jump in of just how also through the changing times of the music industry how things have changed for you.
[00:03:36] Michaela: But. you guys have been together for such a long time, but didn't start actually playing music or putting out records together until the last 10 years. Is that correct?
[00:03:45] Theresa: I want to know how long you've been married before we, long have you guys been together?
[00:03:50] Aaron: In September will be our 10th wedding anniversary, but we've been together for, we've been together for 17 years.
[00:03:55] Theresa: Newbies and how old you have one child.
[00:03:58] Aaron: one child who will be three this summer. we went to school in Manhattan. We went to the new school to the jazz school there and met there.
[00:04:05] Aaron & Michaela: In the jazz school, at the new school.
[00:04:09] Michaela: Yeah. So I was, going to wait until later to share, but Larry, you and I have actually met, which I wouldn't ever expect you to remember because I was like a fly on the wall. Probably 15 years ago at this point, I was right out of college at the new school. I got a job working at Nonesuch Records I'd become friends with Felix McTeague,
[00:04:28] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah, Felix, I miss him,
[00:04:30] Michaela: yeah, who unfortunately passed away tragically a couple years ago.
But Felix was trying to help me. I was like, graduated college, worked at a record label, but was like, I want to be a musician. And he had a session that he was producing that you and Byron were playing and,
[00:04:47] Larry: Roger Friedman, it was for Roger Friedman,
[00:04:50] Michaela: And Tony Leone and I. Tony, I used to sing harmony for a woman, in New York and Tony played drums and Tony and I became close friends at that time and Felix invited me to come to the session and it happened to be, I think, two days after Levon had passed away.
[00:05:07] Larry: this is all coming back, and I remember your face, Michaela. Yes,
[00:05:11] Michaela: I was like 22 23 like sitting on the couch and I will never forget this Larry because I was like starstruck with getting to listen to you guys play and was like, friends with Tony but then we had dinner in the studio and we talked about our favorite TV shows and You told me that you loved brothers and sisters
[00:05:32] Aaron & Michaela: Uh Huh,
[00:05:33] Michaela: this like sitcom drama that I loved and Aaron used to give me so much shit about watching And I came home that night and I was like Larry Campbell likes brothers and sisters
[00:05:46] Aaron: Yeah, gotta stay open minded
[00:05:47] Michaela: But yeah, so that was that was my brief encounter with you all those years
[00:05:52] Aaron & Michaela: see you again, Michaela. Really.
[00:05:55] Aaron: Yeah, so for for our history, we started playing together But we're very intentional about keeping our musical relationship separate from our romantic relationship in a way, mainly just because,
[00:06:08] Aaron & Michaela: How never a duo drums are my first instrument.
[00:06:10] Aaron: since it was her songs and her project and her name. I wanted to make sure that she was, keeping both things separate. I wanted to make sure that she was hiring me because I was the best person for the job.
[00:06:20] Aaron & Michaela: Ha ha ha
[00:06:21] Aaron: that she wasn't getting mad at me because I messed up the bridge when she was really mad at me because I didn't do the dishes the night before, you know,
[00:06:28] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah, that's a balance.
[00:06:29] Michaela: Yeah, it's taken us a long time.
[00:06:31] Larry: is something that I found we're pretty able to do We can have a big fight before we go on stage. You know? About the garbage or the dishes or whatever it is or whatever. And once then it's the downbeat. She's who she is and I'm who I am on the stage for the people out there, you know, and we still feel it.
We're able to put the anger or whatever it is, the disagreement.
[00:06:54] Theresa: I've had a couple of moments on stage
[00:06:57] Larry: where I
[00:06:57] Theresa: brought it on where I, yeah, or something happens on stage that pisses me off. And then I have a couple of songs where the edge is there, you know, I'm probably delivering the songs because it's in my muscles now, so the emotional thing is probably in your muscles already.
So you can do that. And then in between songs, it's like, maybe there's not as many glances at each other as there might be. That's rare though.
[00:07:23] Larry: Yeah, it is rare for the most part. But I'm
[00:07:25] Theresa: not trying to say, Hey, it's all stars and roses. No, there are times and that's usually when you're exhausted from the road.
Exhausted. all bets are off. Once you start losing sleep, which is built in the road, you're going to lose sleep and you're going to have erratic sleep. that's where I run into trouble. I'm, I'm like a baby. I'm really good. If I've had good sleep, good food and exercise, I'm your best pal.
But once that starts going tanking, it's like an infant that starts, acting out.
[00:07:55] Aaron: Mm hmm.
[00:07:55] Larry: But I think the reason this works is because we had both had years of onstage experience before, we were involved romantically, so we knew the parameters of what you have to deal with when you're on that stage and you just drop everything else and just be there on the stage, you know, and, she was very good at it and I was okay at it, gave us that muscle where we could just, put the personal thing aside and be professional.
It's worked out pretty good.
[00:08:24] Larry & Theresa: Yeah.
[00:08:25] Aaron: talking about road and the grinds of the road, how has that been, after years of touring with people further down the,
[00:08:33] Michaela: Or like
Bob Dylan and Cady Lang. Yeah, big productions.
[00:08:37] Theresa: where your luggage is in your. Hotel room when you get to your hotel room. You're not heaving your own crap
[00:08:43] Larry & Theresa: Yeah.
[00:08:44] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:08:44] Theresa: Are loading your gear into the venue and loading it out of the venue and loading it into the hotel Setting up your hotel room loading out of your hotel room setting up at the venue riding However, many eight hours six hours driving yourself sometimes
[00:08:59] Larry & Theresa: Yep.
[00:08:59] Theresa: 50 50 at least people can't believe me when I say they're like, well, you're like in one town like, a couple of weeks or a week, right? I'm like, I don't think you understand the meaning of no,
[00:09:10] Larry & Theresa: Yeah.
[00:09:11] Theresa: town every night.
we're preaching to the choir here.
[00:09:14] Larry: For me, those years, with, Bob Dylan or, Katie or anyone where it's top shelf accommodations and, Catering and all that kind stuff. It's a luxury tour. You know, All that stuff is great. way we do it now it's very taxing, but the ultimate payoff, because we're doing our thing and we're doing it with the person we most want to be with, we're not playing somebody else's music.
we're not. there to support somebody. We're there to support ourselves. As taxing as all that other stuff is, I'd much rather be doing this, this way than any other luxury tour where I'm, as rewarding as that is musically to be playing with Bob Dylan or something like that.
I'd much rather be doing what we're doing now than out there. Just being part of this guy's band, or anybody's band for that matter. It's the price we have to pay for that. Ultimately it's the most rewarding thing I could want to do.
[00:10:11] Michaela: Do you ever have feelings or times where you're like, dammit, why isn't it more luxurious for us, for our thing? Or
[00:10:18] Theresa: Not really. No.
[00:10:20] Michaela: I like that
[00:10:21] Theresa: oranges. Yeah. No, No, it's apples and oranges as far as that's where they are in their career. And it's fun to be on those, you know, periodically we get on those tours every now and then, you know, but as us opening and sitting in with like when the Jackson Brown, when we were, After our first record, we went out with Jackson Brown for a while because he needed somebody to replace Val. do you say it? Don McCallum. Yeah.
[00:10:44] Aaron & Michaela: On guitar. And he was
[00:10:45] Theresa: taking some family time off. There's another story for you. Had a daughter which I've completely respected. So he needed Larry for that. And then he said, you guys just open and use my band. That was, what a luxury that was.
and then, you know, we had, I had a duet or two with, I think I had a couple duets with Jackson and we did one, three of us and it was, um, sweet. It was really fun. And then the last night of the tour, he said, tonight's your last night. Right. And he said, Oh, you're going back out on your own. So some money into your coat.
[00:11:22] Michaela: Okay, but that, that kind of, that concept of like, the dream is to only be. Playing on the level of like Jackson Brown or Katie Lang. Otherwise, this is too hard is one of the things that we're constantly exploring, we're in our late thirties, and my concept of success and what this looks like has shifted so much over the last several years, especially of the pandemic my younger self was like, if only I could just play small clubs and have a dedicated fan base and, teach music lessons when I'm home, that would be the dream. And that is exactly the life that I have. But then there've been times where I've thought.
Well, If only I could play theaters and be on a bus, and it's really shifted and been like, I can't spend a life just playing small clubs and house concerts. And now I'm like, the idea that that could be enough is really now not a like settling or disappointment. Now it's What a beautiful life if that's all that it is.
And then you get these little blips of a Jackson Brown tour or this, but everything I learn or think I want to know, I have to like keep hearing. So hearing from you guys of like, man, you guys have had such massive high moments, and then also know that it's still like as good as it gets to be together, playing the music that
[00:12:40] Larry: That's, that's the story right there. our thing has grown since we started doing it. We have a built in demographic that seems to be and growing, you know, but, playing the larger venues there's certainly value in that.
that's certainly something to strive for. That's certainly just being more known for what you do being more more ears hearing what you do and all that. That's all great. But that core of satisfaction in this thing is being up there together doing this thing. Even it's for two people sitting out there, being in that two hour, time period, the satisfaction of that doesn't change with the growth of the venue or the audience, you know,
[00:13:23] Theresa: we, were special guests of further when they played at Madison square garden. So I got to do, keep your lamp trimmed and burning. at Madison Square Garden. Then in a few weeks, I think maybe we were at the Rubin Museum down
[00:13:36] Larry & Theresa: Mm-Hmm. Chelsea area. Yeah. And that beautiful little theater inside the museum, a hundred
[00:13:41] Larry: people in the audience.
[00:13:43] Theresa: and then the rapport you have with the small audiences, it's apples and oranges and they're both great.
if you go into it to be famous and have a bus. I know that's what the industry says is success. But, I think the real people go into it because they love to do it. And that other stuff is gravy, and that's great, and whoever does achieve that, that's great. I wouldn't turn it down, but, if you don't really love it, it'll translate that you don't love it. And I don't think you'll get your bus and your, you know, all the fame that you might want, or maybe you do, but it'll ring hollow
[00:14:16] Michaela: Or you won. You only love it when the setting is right. The setting is what you
[00:14:21] Theresa: You know, If you have to have the sequence and the pyrotechnics to get your song over, look at Tracy Chapman on the Grammys he was playing on that, No offense to people who have the dancing people around them. That's all fun too. I get it. It's all fun. It's a show.
You put on a good show. It's a rodeo. But she just stood there with a good song and a guitar and some good musicians.
[00:14:44] Michaela: And jeans and a
[00:14:45] Theresa: He didn't move.
She just stood there and sang something that had obviously come from her heart because the whole audience was standing up singing every word with her.
[00:14:54] Larry & Theresa: Yeah. Mm-Hmm?
[00:14:55] Larry: Yeah.
There it is.
That's what it boils down to, you know, and when, if we're in a small room and there's a handful of people there and you do your show, it's over and a person comes up to you and tells you what that song you just did meant to them and how it got them through something or something.
There's the payoff. that is golden. You just made a connection to somebody. You helped them out by something you did and them coming to tell you that you did this helps you out for what you're trying to do, But
[00:15:27] Theresa: I think the reason for doing it is that that was your calling.
[00:15:30] Larry: Yeah.
[00:15:31] Theresa: And you know in your heart of hearts if it is or isn't.
not to be too uh, what's the word? it, ooey, hooey, bleh, but I think that has to be in there. And yes, the bus that all helps your bank account and your health. Because you can travel in a healthier way and at our age, that's an issue.
don't recover, you don't bounce back the way you did when you were in your 20s or whatever. And having all that stuff, that would help, your health. Seriously. I'm sure it's a grind, even on people at that level. you see the things of like Beyonce and people in Europe, and she's like doing her show and then she, this some old documentary or something that I call it like 10 minutes off, but they were commenting that she would go back to her room and then look at the whole show again after she did the show to see what needed to be better.
I guess that's why she is where she is. But, every night on a world tour. That's a grind. I'm sorry.
And she was a lot younger, of course, but that's hard on your health. I think the whole thing is really hard on your health
[00:16:32] Aaron: and
[00:16:33] Theresa: leave us,
[00:16:33] Michaela: say, ain't in
[00:16:35] Theresa: I was like, well, I
[00:16:36] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:16:36] Theresa: of am. I don't know. I want to keep my health. I'm not that cool. Like the guy the drummer from the food
[00:16:44] Michaela: Dave Grohl,
[00:16:45] Theresa: yeah, that book that he came out with where he's talking about having the heart attack and the doctor's like, you can't do this.
You can't do that. He says, I'm rock and roll, man. I'm doing it anyway. And he just went right back out on the road of like, yeah, I'm not that cool. He's really cool. I'm not that cool.
[00:16:59] Aaron: just touched on the Beyoncé thing. When you're at that level, you are a business owner. I mean, The amount of people that she employs, the amount of people whose livelihood is dependent on her show being at that level, I can't imagine what that does psychically
[00:17:13] Larry: wondered if our thing was that expansive, would it still be what I want it to be? I don't know. You know, Because there's so much, ancillary. Stuff that you have to concentrate on and deal with and
um,
[00:17:28] Theresa: a big brain, man.
Yeah,
[00:17:29] Larry: and, and, um, A lot of space. And you could hire the best people in the world. You could have all the money in the world to pay the best people in the world.
[00:17:36] Theresa: Somebody's managing them.
[00:17:37] Larry: Yeah, but still, you're, it's all your responsibility at the end of the day, you
[00:17:42] Larry & Theresa: Yeah. Mhm.
[00:17:43] Larry: I don't know. if I'm built for that,
[00:17:45] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. So in my mind, people like Dylan and people like Levon were people that were, at that level that are able to still create fresh art and create fresh art of on songs that are. 50, 60 years old. you able to glean any insight from, creating with them on how to approach something like that when you have, this level of fame, still approach it with the art front and center.
[00:18:11] Theresa: talking about dealing with the success part of it. Dylan can fix his life around him, that he doesn't have to he puts really good people around him.
That's really lovely people around him. Levon just,
[00:18:24] Larry & Theresa: that's to get him to deal with something like that, he'd like, I'm just going to go get a Coke. Let me, let me, let me go in the kitchen. I'm going to go get a Coke. And then he just never saw him again. He's just like, not going to mess with, I mean, somebody who would walk out on Dylan.
[00:18:38] Theresa: and didn't have a job waiting on him somebody he was just like i'm going back to memphis Going
[00:18:43] Larry & Theresa: hmm. Yeah.
[00:18:44] Theresa: he's not gonna mess with stuff that he didn't want to mess with
[00:18:47] Larry: the thing is from levon was that he had
[00:18:50] Theresa: he cared about the important stuff.
He did.
[00:18:52] Larry: That's what I'm and was incapable You incapable of artifice of any kind. He could not be anything but himself. And that means that, his ability to stay focused on his artistry and let everything else drag
[00:19:10] Theresa: sometimes to his detriment, probably to himself, you know, his
[00:19:13] Larry: own detriment was something to see.
You know, all he cared about was the music. I see, I knew him a few decades ago and, and when we're in the dark times for all of us, that was all about, getting over basically. that last decade of his life, all he wanted to do was have a good time making music and that's all he cared about.
And he just wanted To constantly make it better, to constantly make it fresh, to constantly, make it more communal, to And
[00:19:38] Theresa: moving forward. He wasn't resting on any laurels. At all. Yeah. Yeah. He wasn't going back. He was going forward. When they made that movie, I said you guys can't do this movie without going to Arkansas.
I, like, why haven't you been to Arkansas? And finally, I would like harp and harp, and finally Jacob, the director said, He doesn't want to go backwards. he wants this to be about going forward I really respect that
[00:20:00] Larry: it wasn't
[00:20:01] Theresa: that he denied Arkansas or anything like that, but he just wanted it to be about his career moving forward.
[00:20:05] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:20:06] Larry: the trappings of fame never seemed to phase him one way or another,
[00:20:10] Theresa: He wanted to be treated with respect and properly, you know, but, was about the real deal.
[00:20:15] Michaela: there's such a difference of looking at a machine of all the people that are employed and dependent versus from the outside looking in what you guys were a part of with leave on looked like I've read some interviews with you guys talking about it of like, I think it's a, you described it as musical nirvana of just the extreme collaboration and inclusiveness, what a special balance that takes to have that where it's not driven by, all right, we got to keep all these people employed,
from the outside looking in, but like such an extended family, beautiful experience.
And in the audience, you've, felt that we saw you guys at um, Central Park,
[00:20:54] Aaron & Michaela: Oh, no kidding.
[00:20:55] Michaela: I
[00:20:57] Aaron: wasn't there. Oh, you weren't there? There was, I had something else and I was like, I'll see them again. And I never did. Oh
[00:21:04] Michaela: man. I'm sorry. I forgot that you were there. It's
[00:21:06] Aaron: okay. It's a soft spot. I forgot about it, but.
[00:21:08] Michaela: I, cause Emmylou Harris was on the bill with you guys and I worked at Nonesuch so I got like great tickets to anything I wanted to go see and Emmylou was on Nonesuch and I will never forget that show. I remember you guys did. at the edge of the stage and I think you did a Grateful Dead song and like thunder broke and it started raining and it was just like just so magical and Tony came and sat in when Levon played mandolin and it was just like, I'm getting like misty eyes.
[00:21:35] Larry & Theresa: Yeah.
[00:21:37] Larry: can't describe how fulfilling that those years were, purest form. Um, um, Yeah, it's true. if someone would come up and play the ramble, it's interesting. Had any sort of a scent of an ego that they had with him, he would sense it right away and they'd never be never
[00:21:58] Theresa: saw him again.
Yeah.
[00:21:59] Larry: Yeah. Yeah. It's true.
[00:22:01] Theresa: in his world, you and I meet. Yeah.
[00:22:04] Larry: To me, See, I just come from eight years at Bob Dylan before we started with LeVon. although there are a lot of parallels there as far as being true to yourself, Bob was constantly true to himself.
You could never argue about that. he dealt with his notoriety in a different way.
[00:22:23] Theresa: And it hit him at such an early
[00:22:25] Larry: age.
[00:22:25] Theresa: Like, well, how old was he? 18 or something? I mean, he was so young. Who could come out of that unscathed with that kind of fame? Oh my
[00:22:34] Michaela: a solo name versus being a part of a
[00:22:37] Larry: Part of a thing.
That's right. Yeah. That's a good point because um, Levon was most comfortable being part of a collective. that's the place he wanted to be. And he wouldn't
[00:22:47] Theresa: leave the barn without five horns going, and traveling with five horns. I mean, the horns had their own bus.
[00:22:52] Larry: Bob Dylan, when he came out, There was no competition for what he did. What he did was so unique. I remember talking to John Sebastian who was hanging around the village. He was a big part of it back then. And John said, all of us knew there was this thing in the air that we wanted to grab and put into some form and nobody was able to do it except Bob, we all had a sense of it, but Bob was the only guy that was able to do it.
I, a practical sense, I guess it's the, taking what was the popularity of American folk music at that time and making it. truly relevant to that time and day and, making it the basis for a conglomeration of everything else that was going on, whether he wanted it or not, that bestowed a huge responsibility on him, the stuff he was able to express back then.
was unparalleled. that adulation, that curiosity that followed him about all that, that everything that followed him up till even the time I started working with him. I don't know how you deal with that Talk about the other 20, 22. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, He was constantly a target for some type of attention, his whole life is somebody trying to get to him,
[00:24:00] Larry & Theresa: some serious paranoia could
[00:24:02] Larry: yeah. Now, Levon didn't have to deal with that, it was easier for him to just see the simple joy in music making and collaboration and to be really true to that and if there's anything that Teresa and I have gotten out of that. Almost decade of experience with him. It's that if we're going to do this, it's because it's a beautiful thing to do and it's fun and it's joy. And don't forget that because there's no other point being out there.
[00:24:32] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. I like to say something parallel to that in that, most things in this industry are outside of your control, people buying your record, people showing up to all your show, but what is in your control is your creativity, the way you approach making the art.
And if you focus on that. you can fill your cup, you know, and if you're focusing on everything outside of that, a colander. Everything's gonna fall out of that.
[00:24:54] Larry: Bingo. And there's going to be something. Every day that disappoints you,
[00:24:58] Theresa: and there are always going to be people as the old saying goes, who are better than you are and who are not as good as you are.
Right.
[00:25:04] Larry: Always. Yeah.
[00:25:05] Theresa: Always.
[00:25:07] Larry: So the, only thing you can do is don't disappoint yourself,
[00:25:11] Michaela: I read that you said, your songwriting needed time to develop to be where you wanted it to be to have something to say. Can you talk about that process, like allowing yourself that time, how that kind of bubbled up, especially as someone who was playing as a support person for, these well renowned songwriters to then let your own, Confidence and like, willingness to let yourself access that part of your musicality that hadn't been at your forefront, what that was like.
[00:25:42] Larry: so the impetus Was her, you know, that was, wanted, I
[00:25:48] Theresa: wanted to
[00:25:53] Larry: hand her a song and So we had a song we could sing together
I dabbled in songwriting and didn't have enough of an impetus to get into it. right after I left Bob's band, it was time that we started being together and quit being on the road away from each other, and I was, enthralled with her voice, and had to be, in my head, some way we can build something the only way to do that,
[00:26:18] Theresa: 15 years, basically apart, the first couple of years we were married, we were mostly together here in the city.
And then it started going.
[00:26:25] Larry: Yeah. We were both on the road in different things, you know.
[00:26:28] Theresa: and that, that was really lonely.
Very lonely.
[00:26:32] Larry: But if we were going to do that, we needed material. And I thought just get off your ass and start writing some songs. Cause it's either do it or don't do it.
And at that point, don't do it was not an option. So I finally told myself, Yeah, this may be garbage. It might be junk. It might be the worst thing anybody's ever heard. It might be laughable, but you're not gonna know it until you try it, I blew up that log jam and just started trying, the first song that I wrote for her.
Was, uh, did you
[00:27:01] Theresa: love me at all
[00:27:01] Larry: Yeah. Did you love me at all? Yes. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. it's not like it's great writing or anything or even but, once I got it done, I wasn't even trying to judge it. It was just, I got a song out.
She's singing it. She sounds great. And this is work, having done that one song gave me the license to keep going. And, playing an instrument, writing a song, singing all this stuff to me is like, Like I'm a mule with the carrot on the stick in front of you, you know, that carrot, I'm never going to get a bite out of that carrot, but I'm going to be chasing it the rest of my life. and, um,
[00:27:34] Aaron & Michaela: I'll
[00:27:35] Larry: never be the songwriter I want to be.
I'll never be the singer I want to be. I'll never be the guitar player I want to be, but I'm going to be the best one there ever was, cause I'm going to keep, I've convinced myself that I'm going to be the best at this, I allow myself to believe that, which makes me keep trying to get better at it, and songwriting is, lyric writing is very difficult for me.
It's really hard because, I abhor bad lyric writing, you know, trying to stay out of that pit is a real challenge. And he
[00:28:05] Theresa: won't stop working long enough to give himself the time to let it.
[00:28:09] Aaron: Yeah. Give himself the quiet.
[00:28:10] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah.
[00:28:11] Theresa: he plays a lot of instruments and he's always. practicing those instruments, talking about the other 22. He's the one I don't know, you should say the other two for him because he, he's, practicing, all the time and, are working. He's always going to work because he's one stop shopping.
It fills all these needs for the person hiring him. you know, If it's not us on the road together, I don't see him stopping and allowing the time. Like like to write sometimes I don't want to show anybody cause I'm horrified at what comes out of stream of conscious writing or whatever.
I'm just like, yeah, I knew that, but I didn't want to admit that I knew that. And consciously I don't want to know that. So let's go back where you came from, you know, but even doing that, I need blank, quiet space. And I don't know, everybody doesn't, I'm sure, but I would, and I would like to see him allow himself more blanks.
And speaking of the other 22, time to refill the well.
[00:29:10] Michaela: Is that something you guys actively like talk about and say?
[00:29:13] Theresa: I do. I harass him about it. And I take the time much to our manager's chagrin. I have family. Family is most important. I helped take care of my dad during the pandemic when he had Alzheimer's. So we were off the road, obviously. And so I was, the caregiver that was needed I would never take anything for it. I would have come off the road to do it. I would have just quit to do it. And the most profound and harrowing and happy thing I've ever done in my life. To me, that's what you write about. You write, if you don't do those things, you don't have anything to write about.
That's the way I look at it. You have to have a life and a lot of writing is a, yes, it's what's in you too, but you're observing other people and says the woman who's never, you know, Recorded one of her own songs.
[00:30:00] Aaron & Michaela: But
[00:30:03] Theresa: I believe that I love writers. I love reading about writers saying movies about writers.
I just love words and as long as I don't have to do
[00:30:11] Michaela: Yeah. we talk about that a lot on this podcast of the challenge of balancing, especially I think starting your, your music career in this time where money is like very hard to find for, compensation for recordings for, on the road. It's really hard to make. It's harder than ever to make money.
Everything is so expensive. And we talk about that drive of
[00:30:34] Theresa: Gas doubled, hotel rooms doubled,
[00:30:37] Michaela: Oh yeah.
[00:30:37] Theresa: everything during the pandemic, I know it's coming down a little bit, but literally hotel rooms doubled.
[00:30:43] Michaela: you know, I've been trying to wrap my head around this feeling of like, oh wait, I've been sold this idea that the only way to succeed is to do it nonstop, sacrifice everything, be on the road as much as possible, not have a life and you'll be rewarded if you do that.
[00:31:00] Theresa: He would do that. And I just won't. And our manager is apoplectic. Cause I'm like, I'm going to be in Tennessee for, you know, six weeks.
I want to hang on the porch with my cousins and with my mother and, have a life life
[00:31:14] Michaela: some people really do want to do that, but how much is it driven by, well, is that actually like what we need to do? Or is that how like, because everybody else in getting a piece of the pie needs to exploit as much as possible to get more pie. And then I started to see in the pandemic, I was in that headset nothing mattered besides music career.
And then I got pregnant. And then my mom had a stroke and I became a caretaker for my mom for three months when she was in the hospital and Then you know life was having a baby and flying to michigan every other month to try and help with my family and
[00:31:50] Theresa: And how's that working for you, being out on a gig every single night and doing your press and doing your, how's that working when you're dealing with your mom has had a stroke and a new baby?
[00:31:59] Michaela: Can't it's impossible and also Seeing what people in my business aspect of my music career Were not okay with it Weren't patient. We're like,
[00:32:10] Theresa: Thank you. Thank you. I've had a few fights about that.
[00:32:14] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:32:15] Theresa: Not with you.
[00:32:17] Larry & Theresa: Yeah, and
[00:32:17] Michaela: it's like
so these? Musicians who make beautiful soul searching art are supposed to have no personal lives No, massive life change, no people that they love that they need to be the ones to take care of them.
And to me, it's so dehumanizing even as a fan like, I don't want my favorite artists to feel that way. I would rather have two albums from them than, ten because
[00:32:42] Aaron & Michaela: Thank you.
[00:32:43] Michaela: of that. And I think it's tough because the economics of it all just feed this well, you have to be putting out and putting out and putting out because the algorithm and the, you know, and it's like, something's got to give or we're, we're in a dire situation.
[00:32:58] Theresa: Chaka Khan recently was inducted maybe into, I don't know, some hall of fame or something. I can't remember what it was, but they said, so, you know, are you going back on the road? And what are you doing now that all this is like cool? And she said, Yeah. I think I'm just, I want to hang out with my friends, see a movie.
Because I've done that. I've done the road, and I couldn't see my friends, and I couldn't see a movie. You know.
you need to do it, but you also need your family.
[00:33:24] Michaela: And you need money.
[00:33:27] Larry: I was talking to a friend yesterday I just did this thing over at Carnegie Hall for um, tribute to Sinead O'Connor and um, Shane McGowan.
I am with some good friend musicians and, we got to the point where, had all been in this business for decades and done some great things and all that. But a lot of things that have driven us have waned and, aren't that important anymore, but that one thing about.
when you sit down with an instrument or when you open your mouth to sing and, you have this feeling inside of you that you're able to get out. with luck, it's received by another pair of ears the attraction to that never if that's in you, I don't know how I could ever stop doing that. and what keeps me going is if I'm going to do that, Then I want to be the best I can at doing that. Well, I
[00:34:22] Theresa: know when I come back from Tennessee after a long spell down there and we hit the road, people say, wow, something was different tonight.
And I'm like, yeah, it's because I was down there. Like I haven't an actual life, now I got something to give
[00:34:33] Aaron: you can feel it. Yeah.
[00:34:35] Theresa: and there's an openness that
that balance, man. Your show is a great
[00:34:38] Michaela: I had
I write weekly essays on Substack, I write about life, but a lot about this kind of stuff, and somebody asked what's the appeal for going into the music industry if you're not in it for like mass fame and money, which also seems like a huge sacrifice but what's the appeal?
It seems like such a hard industry. then they deleted the question. So I feel like they might have felt like maybe they're being aggressive. And I was like, I don't take offense to that question at all. Because I asked this too. We did a two plus week tour in a van with a band with a 14 month old, and I had a broken foot.
And we we drive ourselves. I sell my own merch. We had a one off cross country like, stashed our van in New York City and flew to San Francisco to play Hardly Strictly Bluegrass Festival, flew back and finished some dates, all on a broken foot with a baby. And I'm like, that was some of the hardest stuff.
But like, it was fun. It is that thing that unless you've experienced, you can't explain it of just like the magic that happens I've spent so much time to harvest these songs and build this craft and then to sing and play and share this part of me. that is not even about me anymore. As soon as it comes out the connection that you receive like, yeah, I can get really like cheesy and woowoo about it, but it is like, what else is life about?
Life is about a lot of other things that we need to make room for, but that's like the magic
[00:36:05] Theresa: That's what earns you your breath on earth, because you're staying true to whatever that is in you that needs to do it, and that's like a calling, And, you know, it's unfortunate that in the States, they don't support the arts you know, Ireland, as Larry points out, has, they have instruments on the currency.
[00:36:20] Larry & Theresa: Wow.
[00:36:21] Theresa: I don't know how it is now, but they used to heavily support um, artists. And Scandinavian
[00:36:25] Larry: countries subsidize artists, you think
[00:36:28] Theresa: maybe if we subsidized more art in the country, we might not have the blankety blank show that we have
going on. People trivialize What it does for a person's soul to have experienced art of all kinds.
[00:36:42] Aaron: Yeah, you know, not to go, too far down the, political path, I've had this long time kind of image of America is kind of like the bratty teenager of the world. You know, We're like 16 and think we know everything.
[00:36:54] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah. And it's, and we don't, you know, you look at these countries that have been around for centuries, and they're supporting culture because they understand that their contribution to the human species.
[00:37:07] Aaron: It's something that's enduring is culture and art. And so if you invest in that, that's leaving a mark that will far surpass any of us that are sitting here right now. And that's really important.
and I'm waiting for America to catch up with
[00:37:19] Larry & Theresa: that.
[00:37:19] Aaron & Michaela: That's a really good analogy. Yes.
[00:37:23] Michaela: so if Teresa, you're good at prioritizing your, the other parts of you that need, support.
[00:37:28] Theresa: It's a constant battle. there's a part of me that would like to be like it was in my dorm room in college and I'll say this all the time where need to just get back in a dorm room. So that's all I have to deal with is your little desk with your books and your little bed, laundry once a week and the rest is just straight up throwing yourself at creativity.
All day long, every day. That's all you have to do. I would get up in the morning at eight and get to bed at midnight, and I was happier than I've ever been in my life. That's all I had to worry about before. You have aging parents and one year olds and a broken foot and a husband that you also have to coordinate with and rent So we can't go back in the womb. Can't wait. for that.
[00:38:07] Michaela: How have you guys learned to help each other with that? Teresa, you said you harp on Larry to like, take some time to refill.
[00:38:14] Theresa: listen to me. He doesn't listen to me.
[00:38:19] Larry: Well, But when I do, few times that we've taken a couple of weeks and gone somewhere and did something,
[00:38:26] Theresa: it's wonderful. We live off of those for years. We've only done it like three times ever in our whole marriage we use our resources to go and visit my family in Tennessee.
Any vacation time we would have money or whatever, it's a hightail it down there. And he's, been good about that and hasn't complained about that. and I will say also what has allowed me to do like with my father, and then like I would come up for a one off or something and then fly right back down, but then with her She's living alone now, you know for the first time in her entire life and she's 88, But she's doing great.
Believe me. She's like better sleep than I am, but she I don't want her to be home alone, you know, and But I want to enjoy her while I have her
and he will take like production work or studio work That allows me to go and then that he gets to keep his hand in that, which I think is probably fun too for him.
But yeah.
[00:39:24] Larry: Yeah. I mean, I like producing records and I like working with other people, you know, it's all great but, I really understand Theresa's connection to her family, and I want to do as much as I can to facilitate that for her, you know, because My father died in 2001 of an aneurysm and went pretty quickly. My mother died in 2 20 10. was hit by a bus, you know, and, um,
[00:39:47] Michaela: I'm I'm so
[00:39:48] Larry: there was no lingering deterioration, I didn't have to deal with that.
[00:39:52] Theresa: he didn't have the two years of
primary caregiver for an aging parent.
Right,
[00:39:56] Larry: in retrospect, was fortunate. Fortunate for them that they didn't have to go through it, and fortunate for me that I didn't have to devote my life to that for a while, you know? teresa's experience has been different with her father. she really had to be there. She had to be there. And I'd never argued that or even thought about arguing that, what would I have done if this was my father? I'm going through that, you know? And, fortunately it wasn't that much of a toll because like she said, it was during COVID and we weren't really working anyway,
So the point is it's a balance this can be done. It can be done. We can still do what we do and still make sure that.
The important things in our personal lives are being seen to,
[00:40:36] Theresa: it's very hard for him to stop and even like go to the dentist talk about the other 22, he just won't stop working to do stuff like that, that you have to do in life.
[00:40:49] Michaela: Is that driven by just pure, this is what I love to do more than anything? Or is there also an element of like, I gotta do this
[00:40:57] Larry: It's on automatic pilot now, because formative years was driven, and now that's in the DNA, you know, and, As our
[00:41:03] Theresa: friend Jimmy Vivino says, you'd think these guys were comparing notes, And Jimmy's like band director on Conan. I mean, he's doing okay. and he said, you just still feel like the phone is never going to ring again. So you have to say yes. Every time
[00:41:16] Larry: it
[00:41:17] Theresa: rings.
[00:41:17] Larry: Yeah. I have molded myself into this position where, I know that deep inside me, thing I do is who I am, and what I mean by automatic pilot is that I just, reflexively behave that way, it's reflex.
if I would stop and think about it, I think no, no, man, just, chill, just put it away for a while, you know, and nobody's going to get hurt, but that would take stopping and thinking, sticking
[00:41:44] Aaron: Yeah, can relate to all of that. I've taken to really having to, put something in my calendar and then repeatedly and intentionally stick to it, because otherwise I'll do the same thing. I'll just fill my calendar and I'll be the first one to say like, I'm a huge hypocrite.
I'm always advocating for Michaela to take time go get a massage, go see friends. just live. And meanwhile I'm over here, like I'm not even burning the candle at both ends. I'm just throwing the whole candle into the fire. Just going. Yeah, more.
[00:42:12] Theresa: No wonder you called this. Oh yeah.
[00:42:15] Michaela: Yeah. The, podcast came out of, when the pandemic hit, we've found so many friends being like, I'm kind of relieved. Touring musicians who were
[00:42:25] Theresa: I actually had the thought. I'm like, this is, I'm being really silly here, but I was like, I wanted to look up at the sky and go. Is this really happening to other, did I make this happen for myself?
[00:42:36] Larry & Theresa: Oh yeah.
[00:42:37] Theresa: are other people actually experiencing a pandemic? Am I living in a parallel universe where this just happened so I could be home with my family and take a break?
Cause I've been whining, whining, whining. I have to have. A break. can we take a year off, please? Let's just take a year off and, find our desk from under the papers and like get our important papers to get, you know, life things that other people are at their desk all day and they get to take care of these things.
Yeah.
[00:43:01] Michaela: literally really living through this? Is this really happening?
I literally said, I just, cause we had, I put a record out. I had all these tours, everything was going great, but I was losing a lot of money because touring was costing me a ton of money. I was racking up debt and I literally said, I just need the world to stop so I can make some money back and pay off my debt and then go back on the road.
Yeah. And the first six months of the pandemic for us was like, lovely because we have this home in Tennessee, we have, a deck, it was great. I am very connected to all of the pain and suffering that others experienced and then we've personally experienced our own since then.
But I, think about that and, we had so many friends be like, I don't feel FOMO. I don't feel like the anxiety ambition of I need to be out there because I need to be like remembered. and building my career. This is really nice. I get to have a hobby. I get to grow a garden, things we don't get to do as touring musicians.
everyone was like, life is going to be different. And then it came back and everyone was right back in it like worse than before.
[00:44:06] Aaron: And
[00:44:07] Michaela: it seemed like, Oh, everyone's got their careers back on the ground. they look like they're doing great on Instagram. And then we'd have dinner and they'd be like, I'm so stressed out.
The finances aren't adding up. It's even more expensive. is it ever enough? I'm achieving, but like, do I ever get satisfied? Can I ever pause? And we were just like, man, Maybe we should bring these conversations to light and learn from each other and learn from people who've been doing it longer so it's also been very selfishly motivated
[00:44:35] Larry: Yeah, but it's it's great. great. This is really great for us to talk to somebody who really understands this. You know, It is. Yes. that's really valued.
[00:44:45] Aaron: well, thank you it's like Mikaela saying it's hugely valuable to us to be able to speak with people that have Been it as long as you guys have
[00:44:52] Larry: so it wasn't a bat in China. It was you two guys that caused the pandemic.
[00:44:57] Aaron: Exactly.
[00:44:58] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:44:59] Larry: Okay.
[00:45:00] Aaron: Exactly.
[00:45:01] Michaela: But it, I think it also just continually reinforces for those of us, full disclosure, like being New York we lived in New York City for 10 plus years. We've always been enamored with like the Woodstock. Our dream still is like someday we'll, get to move back to New York and live upstate and go to the city, you know? And then get to talk to you guys specifically and hear, okay, the challenges and the highs, they all just keep spinning around in the dryer. And
[00:45:28] Aaron & Michaela: That's right.
[00:45:29] Michaela: that's all part of it. there's not a day that all of a sudden you're just not going to have to worry about the finances or worry about the balance this is part of it forever.
But continues to reinforce hearing from you guys. Okay, but what matters? It's the music and the experience and the people we love.
[00:45:45] Theresa: And I do, I will admit, there are times where I fantasize about what it would be like to be back in the situation where all you have to worry about is COVID 19. going forward, just hitting the creativity as hard as you can. And then, whatever the peripheral stuff has to be around it, but where you can just go do be with none of these other.
things in life that you accumulate by now. I do fantasize about what that would be like, but that's not what it's like.
[00:46:14] Larry & Theresa: Same.
[00:46:15] Theresa: yeah,
[00:46:17] Larry & Theresa: Yeah.
[00:46:17] Aaron: Yeah. Well, I think this is a great kind of spot to wrap up the conversation. We just want to thank you guys again for taking time out of your day to sit and have
[00:46:25] Larry: this was,
[00:46:26] Theresa: it's a pleasure.
[00:46:27] Larry: So cool. Yeah. So cool to do this with you folks. Really well done. Yeah. This
[00:46:33] Larry & Theresa: Yeah.
[00:46:37] Larry: to promote a record that you just think, Oh, this ain't one of them.
[00:46:42] Aaron: You know, we
[00:46:43] Larry: very
[00:46:43] Aaron & Michaela: valuable.
[00:46:44] Aaron: Thank you. Yeah, we agree. It's fun. We get that reaction from people often because you know, inevitably we have people's publicists that reach out. Inevitably people are paying for publicists when they have a record coming out. So it's like during an album cycle. But we want to talk about the other times.
[00:46:57] Michaela: Yeah. But we're like, this is an anti album cycle interview, conversation, whatever. Conversation, yeah. This is like we had someone come on who was like, didn't really know anything and was like, wait, so we're not talking about my record?
[00:47:08] Aaron: He's like, thank God. Oh, great. He was literally like, thank God, I'd love to talk about anything else. So. Okay.
[00:47:16] Michaela: But obviously inadvertently, I feel like when I. Get to know like a glimpse of that. I think I love an artist as a person. It makes me love their art more. So that's what I feel like the benefit of this.
[00:47:30] Theresa: Yeah. And I will throw in again about the other 22. This is kind of the flip side of some of this. when I do have a show day and you got your two hours on stage and that's magic time, right? Those two hours, right? We all know that, but the whole day I might be having a conversation with you, but if I have a show that night, I'm not really with you.
There's something in my system that is about the show. And your brain is like siphoning off the focus it's like pulling the focus. I'm, preoccupied behind the scene. Like I might be sitting here talking to you and you think I'm all there, but I'm not, it's all going down into those two hours I don't want to be chatty and with people in the dressing room right before the show. I don't, I love people, you know, I'll talk your ear off after the show. But before the show, I just need to be, you know, not a lot of stuff. Yeah. that's my other 22, the days I have a show.
you're completely preoccupied or I am. And if I'm not at the show suffers for it, that's just me.
[00:48:30] Michaela: To learn about yourself, to be like, I can't do that. Yeah.
[00:48:34] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah. It's
[00:48:35] Michaela: my show suffers.
[00:48:36] Larry: Yeah.
[00:48:37] Theresa: that's like being a hot house flower, I guess. But you do what you have to do. Right.
[00:48:41] Aaron: Yeah, knowing what works for you. To be able to show up and do what you need to do in the best way.
[00:48:45] Michaela: Well, Thank you guys so much. I look forward to the day we get to see you perform again
[00:48:51] Theresa: Yeah. And
[00:48:51] Larry: likewise.
[00:48:52] Michaela: meet in person. Yeah.
[00:48:54] Aaron: Yeah, please.
[00:48:55] Michaela: We would love that.
[00:48:56] Larry: we'll try to get in touch when we're in Nashville. We'll, coming down um, may. In May. Yeah. Early May. Yeah.
[00:49:02] Larry & Theresa: Oh, great.
[00:49:02] Larry: we'll make sure you know.
[00:49:03] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:49:04] Michaela: Please do. And same when we, come to New York,
[00:49:07] Aaron: we
[00:49:08] Michaela: I played Levon's barn a couple of summers ago it was pretty fun because they were with me and Aaron, we put Georgia to sleep we had a one year old baby. We were just like, this is surreal. And now she's sleeping in the basement of Levon's barn while I go sing some songs.
Yeah, that
[00:49:24] Aaron: was
[00:49:24] Larry & Theresa: pretty
[00:49:25] Aaron: great. Yeah.
[00:49:26] Michaela: But yeah, we'll, we'll be in touch and thank you guys so much. Best of luck with everything.
[00:49:30] Aaron & Michaela: Thanks for having us.
[00:49:31] Aaron: Uh, a note