Laurie Berkner has released 15 best-selling records, has performed everywhere from The White House to Carnegie Hall and The Today Show, authored children's books based on her songs, written music and lyrics for 3 different off-Broadway shows, and is one of today's most prominent artist's for kids. We talk to Laurie about her transition from rock bands and 'adult' music, to writing and performing music for kids and the assumptions and stigma around that, self-distributing on a large scale, selling your back catalog, navigating changes in the industry, improvising songs experientially, and a whole lot more.
Laurie Berkner has released 15 best-selling records, has performed everywhere from The White House to Carnegie Hall and The Today Show, authored children's books based on her songs, written music and lyrics for 3 different off-Broadway shows, and is one of today's most prominent artist's for kids. We talk to Laurie about her transition from rock bands and 'adult' music, to writing and performing music for kids and the assumptions and stigma around that, self-distributing on a large scale, selling your back catalog, navigating changes in the industry, improvising songs experientially, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 104. This week we are featuring our conversation with Laurie Berkner.
Aaron: Laurie Berkner is a singer songwriter, businesswoman
Michaela: leader of the kindie rock movement is also what I read.
Okay. She's a singer, indie rock for kids. Oh, I
Aaron: like that.
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: Okay, so there you go. She focuses on making music for little people. You parents out there probably have heard her name But for uh, context, for those of you, since the kids' music world is such a different world for some reason than making music for adults.
But Lori's essentially like the Raffi of today. And she has 15 bestselling records. She [00:01:00] has performed at the White House, Carnegie Hall, Lincoln Center. She's authored books based on her songs. She's written music and lyrics for three different off-Broadway shows,
Michaela: and she also runs her own label. She is a boss.
She has a COO. That's how much of a boss she is. And we talk about that and what it is to manage the business side as well as carving out intentional time to still write and be creative because there is no business without that creativity.
Aaron: Yeah. We talk about staying the course and trusting that it'll all work out.
There are ups and downs for everybody, and you see that. You can see that in other people, and it's hard to see that in yourself, but just trusting that it'll all work out and stay the course and keep going.
Michaela: We get to dive in about process and really about her intentional crafting of songs when she started shifting towards writing for kids, and then also parents as her audience.
And really interesting how she felt that the shift when she started writing intentionally for this outside purpose, how it [00:02:00] inadvertently taught her more about herself than when she was so focused inwardly writing from more of a diary perspective.
Aaron: as always, there are some topics in this conversation that come. From suggestions from our Patreon subscribers, that is because they get advanced notice of our guests over there. And also there are other features not least of which is the pride and satisfaction of knowing that you are directly supporting the production of this show.
So, if that sounds interesting or intriguing to you, there is a link below in the show notes.
Michaela: And if you are a visual person, this and all of our past conversations are available on YouTube.
Aaron: So without further ado, here is our conversation with Lori Ner.
so kind of starting there before you stepped into making music for Little Ears, you had rock bands and did music for adults,
Michaela: Which also kids music is also for adults in a way For sure. Because
Laurie: totally.
Michaela: that we're parents and we understand that.
Laurie: I think it's very hard to fully understand the connection to music that's written with kids in mind until you are actually an [00:03:00] adult. Unless you're a kid,
Laurie: then you definitely get it. But yeah that like sense of living vicariously through. The small people in your life that you love more than anything in the world, right?
And seeing them experience the translation of that into that experience means on the memory that gets made, I think is very hard to describe or even to imagine before it happens to you.
so yes, I did, play in bands early on. Well, When I first graduated from college, I came into the city and was.
Doing just odd jobs and then writing music and playing in cafes in the East Village and stuff as a like solo singer
songwriter.
And then I sort of developed that into a band, played in some friends' bands that did Okay. Uh, I recorded a few of those songs, but I did better in a cover band.
I actually got paid rather than like begging my 30 closest friends to come see me at, you know, some dive bar down on Houston Street or something.
So, Yeah. [00:04:00] Yep.
and then like,
fighting with them to get a few dollars from the
door. my own band was called Red Onion. I did that for a little bit and then I was in Lois Lane, which was an all female cover band.
and that's where I got to be good friends with Susie Lampert, who has been the keyboardist with me since day one for doing the kid stuff. She and I would drive to these shows out on Long Island together 'cause she didn't have a car. And you know, we'd get back at whatever, four or five in the morning, then I'd go play a birthday.
I'd drop her off, go home, try to shower off all the cigarette smokes since people could still smoke in the bars then, and then go to a birthday party and play my own songs.
Aaron: Yeah. Wow. Crazy dichotomy. Yeah. so was it just the kid stuff started to get more traction and, went that way? Or was it kind of shift of this is what's fulfilling me.
Laurie: sort of a little of
both. when I started recording the kids' music, I realized the people actually were interested in the recordings outside of I had a, about eight or 10 years of being a [00:05:00] music teacher in preschool and daycare settings and also doing like mommy and me classes that I started myself.
And those years were when I wrote a lot of that music and I was still playing in bands on the side in Lois Lane for a while, and I was the last one that kind of survived. At a certain point when I started recording the kids' music and seeing that people were sharing it with friends who did not have children in any of the classes, I was.
Teaching. Made me realize that I had a little bit of a bigger audience than I thought I did in the kids' world. I was getting asked to do more and more benefits. Parties, concerts started to come out of that. I realized it was so much more fun to have people scream Victor Vito at me than have them scream Freebird at me.
Aaron: Yeah.
Laurie: Like literally people would do that ' cause they were so drunk. we were all female cover band. We played at like sports bars and lesbian bars like Those were the places that really wanted only women in the [00:06:00] band. I was playing electric in that band and I was fine, I can solo, but like people were, you know, take out really long.
So everybody know as they got drunker, they got more into it and everyone's getting louder and I was getting more exhausted. And whereas when I would play at a birthday party, they would start by screaming my songs and as soon as I started playing, everybody was into it. They didn't have to wait to get drunk
'cause the children would either respond or not immediately.
And that also taught me a whole
lot in those early days. And I just thought, wow. I think I had one show where I went there and I was like, sick or something. And I remember pulling into the driveway and thinking, I'm gonna have to play here until three in the morning. And then I have to get up and go do a party and.
I am kind of looking forward to the party, and I don't wanna do this gig. What am I doing here?
So somewhere around there. And then also eventually I stopped being a music specialist as well because I [00:07:00] realized if I focused on actually performing and recording and writing the music, I was doing okay.
And I got tired after a really long time.
showing up every day and trying to work with kids who, a lot of times they were happy to be there. Sometimes they weren't. it became more important to me to really work on my own creativity at that point.
Michaela: I'm so curious as a songwriter, ' cause I read, that you were having trouble writing for your kind of indie rock format, but then once you started writing for children it, felt very easeful. we haven't ever had someone who writes for children
Yeah. But I, we talk about whether we are, writing from a really personal space of like our diary and like reflecting our life and all that stuff, or kind of fictionalized. So I'm so curious from your viewpoint, like what that has been like, are you really thinking about what do I observe children wanting to hear?
How much of also yourself and like memory of yourself as a child is in that what's that writing [00:08:00] process like for you?
Laurie: so it definitely depends on the song, but all the things that you touched on are a part of it. When I first started writing the music that I was writing specifically for kids, it was really, truly out of desperation. 'cause I was struggling to find music that kept the kids excited about coming to music class. Like I was, like, I'm their music specialist when they're in this incredibly impressionable age.
I, I want them to love music. I don't care if they become musicians. I just want them to feel like music is something that can help them express their feelings have joy, connect with other people, feel good about themselves as human beings and also individually and in a group. And that felt like what was really important to me, so that the connection to music was positive because I did notice.
by five or six there was a lot of suddenly like stigma around [00:09:00] dancing to music, expressing themselves, singing
out. a lot of things started to happen at that point.
And I felt like I want every kid who comes, who sees me to feel like they own their connection to music, and that is positive and that, just felt like the main thing. So when I first started writing, which was completely based on them, I literally asked them what they wanted to sing about because I would try to bring in songs and half the kids would just say, I don't.
like that. Or that's a baby song or whatever. So, um,
The story I tell a lot is that the day that I finally was like, kind of like, I have no idea what to do, you guys don't wanna hear any of the songs I brought in today? Just tell me what do you wanna sing about? And one kid yelled, dinosaurs and then another, all of them were like, yeah, dinosaurs.
And I thought, oh my God. Okay, great. Stand up, everybody up. We're gonna sing about dinosaurs right now.
Aaron: Yeah.
Laurie: And I just thought minor [00:10:00] key, I don't know. Marching stomping around. Follow me. We are the dinosaurs. I don't even know what I sang that first day because. I just kind of made it up and then saw that they were starting to attack each other because they were dinosaurs. So I was like, ah, stop and eat your food on the ground, on the ground. Eat your food on the ground, you know? I had gone through a process of understanding how important it was to put the directions in the music of what I wanted them to do.
So it, Was my first time practicing that.
incredible to me how much improvisation was involved with of that song.
Tons.
I just made up something that rhymed, and I had a friend who at the time used to always say, what do you think?
And so I thought of her and I was like, what do you think of that? You know, I just like, we make the earth flat.
Okay. Like we're big and we stomp around. And recently made a video that was like just responding to a lot of people who think I'm a flat earth because I wrote that
song. no.
I literally had made a video that was like I'm [00:11:00] talking about.
Stomping on the ground and making the dirt flat 'cause we're big. Not that I think the earth is not round and, that video blew up because people were like, oh my God, I was wondering
Aaron: Wow. I mean, see, because I've, I've, obviously, I've heard that song a hundred times. And I always heard it the way you intended, it's like,
Laurie: that. Thank
God.
Aaron: feet, they're heavy. You'd
Laurie: Yes, yes. And it was
totally just a, like, like I said, survival in that
moment. I thought, mean, I love improvising silly things. So it, that really has, I think been part of why writing music for kids has worked out for me because it feels very. Natural to do that. And in the moment I didn't feel like worried or embarrassed about it all.
I was like, I'm just making up something. And they might think it's funny or they won't, and it's just gonna be what it is. And I didn't expect ever necessarily to sing that again. But when those same kids came back, they were like, sing beside that dinosaur song again.
And then I [00:12:00] had to try to remember what I had sung. And so over time it became what it is today,
which I'm sure it wasn't quite that when I started. But something similar.
Aaron: Wow. is that a kind of standalone experience in the way that that song came to be, or Have there been other songs that are like written like that?
Laurie: not standalone, but although I don't remember specifically like Victor Vito was like that. And I came in and I thought, oh, just try this. And then sang Victor Vito, which. Anyone who's listening, if you don't know the words, it has they ate their rice, they ate their beans, they ate their rutabagas, and they ate their collard greens.
And some of the super young kids were like, that's hard. But then some of the other kids just thought it was funny. So I kept playing it. And one kid got distracted, I think, because the words were harder for him. So I decided to just speed up the song. I added
a verse while I was there.
I
was like,
They always eat fast. They never eat slow, and then they always eat slow. They never eat fast, or whatever
order it [00:13:00] was in. I just made
that up while I was there, so that kid wouldn't run away from the
circle.
Aaron: Yeah.
Laurie: So stuff like that happened all the time.
Aaron: It's amazing the you get immediate feedback by you perform music for kids,
Laurie: So true.
Aaron: in a formal setting, like a class or, in your house when we're, singing you, you, you know, immediately, uh, for better or worse,
Laurie: Yeah.
Aaron: we both went to the new school in Manhattan. And so right outta college, I this gig for, I don't even know if they're still around, but an organization called Little Maestros.
Laurie: Oh
Yeah. I remember them. Yep.
Aaron: for people that don't know, it's basically like had multiple locations around the city and there would be a band of, I think it was four people.
There was like two front people and then a keyboard player and a drummer. And there'd be like a different set list for each class. And we would play these song, you know, and there were a lot of like Simon and Garfunkel songs and songs that the adults would know too. And then also specifically songs written for the, kids.
But you knew really quickly if the song wasn't going over well, there were [00:14:00] people that picked the songs to make sure they would come across, but like, if you weren't delivering the song fully. 'cause sometimes we were up there, it's like seven in the morning and we lived, you know, in Ditmus Park in Brooklyn.
So I was getting on the train. Like quarter to six everybody's going to work and I'm listening to LA Baba or something like that, like trying to learn these songs for this class that I'm going to, and it's seven in the morning and, you know, maybe I had a gig the night before until, who knows when, midnight, whatever. And if I wasn't like, fully showing up and like delivering these songs and being in them, they knew immediate feedback is very humbling.
Laurie: Yeah. That was a lot of what helped me understand what worked. Was literally watching the reaction to the kids, and then I just would change it if it wasn't working. but part
of also what works is paying attention to the rhythm of a, I think of it like breathing, you know, like allowing a lot of energy to come out and then helping them contain it again and come a little bit more internal and then [00:15:00] out and then oh wait, I'm coming back to me.
And some of that can just be through melody or speed or volume. or even in the movements that they're, mentioning in the song. But I think that a lot of that we could talk for hours about what I think about what keeps a kid engaged from a song, but you're right.
If you don't deliver what's already there it's gonna be 10 times harder to keep them, even if you have all of those elements already in the song, that could help. Yeah,
I actually, I really wanted to answer your question from before. I know I got off onto like how I started with the kids stuff, but as a songwriter for thinking about kids as my main audience, I also do think about the parents.
It's a little bit of a side thing and happens naturally of because I have to sing the songs, I have to perform them, I have to believe in them, I have to care about them, and I have to repeat them.
Sometimes for 25 or 30 [00:16:00] years
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Laurie: far,
right. And record them and like feel proud of them.
I have a mission statement from my company and part of it is creating things that we feel proud of.
in order to do that, there is an element of what I'm doing where I'm thinking a lot about would I actually want to listen to this song if I weren't thinking about a 4-year-old or a 2-year-old?
So there's that aspect, but also as far as what I think about I do think about songs that I wish I had been able to hear when I was a child. I think about that a lot. I think about things that I still am learning as an adult and would love to create music that. Allows children to say the words, even if they don't fully,
Aaron: Yeah.
Laurie: it's not, I was gonna say don't fully understand.
I think they do understand them, but just in whatever level of experience of life they're at. Right. So like I wrote a song called I've Got So Much to Give, and I wrote that because of me [00:17:00] reminding myself like, whatever I'm doing, everything I create is a gift both to myself and anyone I share it with.
And they can choose to receive it or not. But I also think that as a child, it would've been nice to have those words come out of my mouth and have them feel familiar to me that like, that's part of how I think of myself because I've said it. however many times I've sung that song,
So I do use, those. ideas and lyrics to kind self-soothe as much as I write them, hoping that they will also be helpful and soothing for kids.
Or inspiring. Or empowering whatever, and that will obviously change over their lifetime if they're still listening, which I've been lucky enough to find out that a lot of kids still are as adults
Michaela: I love that. Mm-hmm. interesting to me because, I was born in the late eighties, so I was a big Raffi
Laurie: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: and I still can put on Raffi music and like, I love it. it's [00:18:00] not just because I associate it with my childhood. It's genuinely great music. And I think, the songs that you were just talking about writing, I've always been a nanny and worked with children and seen the value in children, but I think becoming a parent, I've also really realized there's this weird divide of like, adults who say like, oh, I don't like kids.
Or
Aaron: my, my kids don't listen to kids' music.
Michaela: Yeah. Like,
Laurie: Right. I know.
Yeah.
Michaela: among musicians
Laurie: Yeah,
I know. I know.
Michaela: my, my kids have like cool taste. They like Jackson Brown or whatever.
And I'm
Laurie: Yeah.
Michaela: but the lessons. The messaging in really quality music that I've now learned being day in and day out with a child are things that are so interesting to me that we think we don't need after a certain age. actually raising a child has taught me so much about how much all of the things that children need remain with us.
The messages, the sensory the energy [00:19:00] shifts, and how much to our detriment, we've thought, oh, okay, that's kids stuff, but how, just valuable it is to keep that with us. And that I think we're lucky to get to witness it. And I think it's incredible that like, you have that experience of getting to connect that of, oh, this is what I would've needed.
And like our daughter is three and a half and so many lessons that we talk about, she's learned from like Daniel Tiger songs Yeah, you
how helpful grownups come back was for when she started going to preschool and daycare. And she even like would tell the new kids don't worry, grownups come back.
And she would sing the song. And I'm like, I'm sure that there's science behind it, but like the study of what happens to our brain when we process ideas through melody.
I think stays with us in a really different way than just being told something.
Laurie: Right. There's a lot of. Somehow feelings get packed in
in the memories. And I [00:20:00] think that when you were talking about my kids don't listen to kids' music, which I struggled with that for a, a long time when I was first starting. 'cause I had so many friends who were doing music that wasn't for kids. and again, I really wanted to feel good and proud about what I was doing.
And I felt very connected to the songs I was writing. Even something like We Are The Dinosaurs, that was so much out of that improv in the moment with the kids. Also, it was like. We're big and loud and angry. Like you could be angry and it was acceptable in a place where there's a group of kids with a teacher, which that's not something that is usually acceptable.
So like seeing that happen with them and feeling it myself and like literally getting to stomp around and roar and things like that. there's such a feeling of power in that. And some of it is the words, some of it's the way the music comes through. What you were saying about the messages are more powerful with melody.
[00:21:00] It certainly attaches to our memories, I think also in a different
way. So I dunno, lots of things to could be said about that.
Aaron: Yeah. a few things are running through my head. Like the first going back to stigma is the word that comes in in a thing of like, oh, it's kids' music. There's this like, diminishment of it. just don't understand that, like I said, we went to jazz school, it's like the pinnacle of music snobbery in our experience.
And it's like, you know, with we are the dinosaurs, it's, gives permission to like be loud and be angry and that's okay. And it's to me, like, that's punk rock too.
Laurie: Yeah.
Aaron: you the permission to be angry, start a mosh pit and flail around.
Like, Do it, that's here. If you did that on the four train, you'd get arrested, you
Laurie: right.
Aaron: But like, it's permission here, because it has the label, like kids music. I've seen in some circles that it gets this asterisk to it
everything you've said to me about you know, having songs that make kids feel okay in themselves, feel okay in community feel welcome, like to open up that is of any song, regardless of what the audience is.
Laurie: So what we haven't talked about though around that is what is [00:22:00] the music?
How are those ideas conveyed? I don't agree necessarily that kids music is less than, but
I understand where the stereotype comes from, right?
So you think about a sing songy melody that gets recycled and used over and over. So there's feels like a lack of originality in that way. I have to say pop music, all the same four chords, but just saying.
Aaron: Yeah, for sure.
Laurie: But also, how are these ideas being conveyed lyrically I think a lot about that when I am writing.
And that's I do think that sometimes some aspects of what I think makes a song work for a child and not feel like it's dumbed down for an adult or oversimplified is really thinking about. melodically, rhythmically and lyrically, how does everything overlap and how do you find that universality of going back to what [00:23:00] you were saying, Mikayla, of what in your child that you realize you actually still need as an adult.
I think there is an intersection of that, there's a little magic in that of trying to find it. It's not always super obvious, but to me there are elements of like simplifying the words, but not dumbing the words, still using words that if they're harder.
It's something a child could master, but an adult might find amusing or poignant. And putting that together with one idea, not too many ideas in one song. that's what pop music also hits a lot of people. 'cause we're, talking about trying to create something in children's music.
that you need to again, go back to that universality because otherwise how do you appeal to a 3-year-old and a 30 5-year-old I find three and six to be a huge age gap in terms of what children like. So to really span that whole [00:24:00] age range that I think takes a lot of effort and listening and paying attention to what's working and thoughtfulness if you're interested in doing that.
And experimenting. It's like who knows what's gonna hit both of them. But I, I use myself a lot and the adults around me as like, Hey, what do you think about this song? And then I play the song for the kids and I find out what do they think about this song and like, try to find where I lose people.
And a lot of times that gives me a lot of feedback to hone the music, which is not how I think a lot of people who write diary, like what you were talking about when I was writing for Red Onion, I was a total diary writer. images, memories, thoughts, random stuff, it made sense 'cause it all seemed cool and I'd put it all in the song.
And I still really like those songs, but I was trying to write for something in myself
that I
Didn't even know what it was. It was like trying to discover something about myself. [00:25:00] And weirdly, the more I focus in on thinking about how will this be received by children and possibly their families, the more I actually discover about what I really like as well.
It's
not necessarily intuitive in that way. I found, the very first question you asked, which was like, this felt easier, I think was kind of, 'cause I took myself a little more out of the equation. when I start, and then as I'm writing I let myself back in and like, do I like this?
Do I like this chord change? Do I like the way that the melody works here? these words. Would they be interesting to me? Am I gonna wanna sing them hundreds of times? I then let myself back in as part of the editor, but I let the beginning part be like some idea I have.
I mean, That's also, from ourselves, right? but I do think about like, oh, this might be interesting to a child. I will follow that, it starts with me or something I hear that I think is interesting. That's a lot like old song in my tummy that was literally a child just was like, Lori, I have a [00:26:00] song in my tummy and it wants to come out.
And I was like, oh, great. Let's sing about it. I've got a song in my tummy and it wants to come out. Pig on her head. This kid wouldn't take the animal off his head when it was time for music. And I was like. Marco has a pig on his head. Marco has a pig on his head, and he keeps it there all day.
What does it say? You know, just like, of course that's me, but it's also like allowing myself to be inspired by things, mostly, you know, a
lot of kids around me as well. Yeah,
Michaela: But also what you said of, when you were writing more kind of diary focused on yourself, it maybe felt motivated by trying to learn something about yourself, but in this weird way you learned more about yourself when you focused.
Elsewhere.
What a lesson,
Laurie: yeah. It's really true. It's really true.
Aaron: you had touched on. A lot of trial and error there for
Laurie: Yeah.
Aaron: And I love the kind of process question. So like, how many songs make it to completion, whether they're your shows or into a record and how many, just don't make the cut
Laurie: I've created more structure around how I [00:27:00] write than I used to have, 25 years ago. It's hugely different. Especially 'cause I'm not in a classroom situation where I'm, we around children all the time. but as far as if I could come up with, I need to write a song, most of them end up being done even when I'm struggling with something, a lot of times someone who works for me will just be like.
You got this, just try working on it one more day and then I'll be like, oh yeah. And then everything comes
out. Um, but it's different. Recording it and what I perform in a concert, those are slightly different. Just 'cause I have, they're 250 songs or something. I have to do the songs that I know everyone is there for.
And then the new ones I introduce in concert, and every once in a while one of them will become part of that standard group of songs. And other times I move through them and the next ones come through as I release them.
kids records have a much longer shelf life [00:28:00] than like a normal artist record. You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Aaron: we are the dinosaurs you wrote 20 years ago.
Laurie: 30.
Aaron: Okay. See? And like I heard it for the first time, it's new to me, 18 months ago I heard it, you know, and it's
Laurie: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: and on heavy rotation also listen to adult records. There are 30, 40 years all, all that. But like, you know, in general,
we have a friend that has been touring with John Fogarty for the last two, three years or so, and it sounds like their shows are very similar.
They have such a long list of songs that people are there to see,
Laurie: Yeah,
Aaron: we have a block in the middle of 15 minutes, you know, whatever, four songs that we can put in new stuff,
Laurie: that's
Aaron: so many songs that are,
Laurie: exactly,
Aaron: you have to play
Laurie: I do a lot of medleys. And especially Encore Medley. So people who are like, okay, I'm done. My kid doesn't need to hear every song you've ever written. They can leave. And then the people who are like, my child is crying 'cause the show is over. Oh, thank goodness.
They
came back and just sang like, a minute of the next six more [00:29:00] songs.
That's, that's what I try to do at the end of the shows.
most of the time. I was also gonna just say that as far as do things get written all the way, I have specific writing times when I'm supposed to write, because otherwise all my day would be filled up with could you film this for social media and answer this question about business, blah, blah.
blah. A lot of Things that are hard since I run my own record label. But whenever I have an idea I text myself or I record it on my phone immediately, like in the shower doing dishes. Taking a walk even at the gym in between like lifting or whatever, I will go over and I'll be on the subway and be like, like trying to whisper into my phone.
'But those all go into like my thousands of voice memos. Or I'll make a document on my computer
and then I have a folder that's all of those ideas and whenever I'm ready to write a bunch more songs, I'll flip through there and be like, oh yeah, I remember that. I wanted to do that. I swear to God, most of the time I have no [00:30:00] memory. Actually, I said, yeah, I remember that. I don't remember ever writing it down, but there it is.
and
that, and I would say like for anybody who's like, oh, I can't come up with things, or I have writer's block, whatever. Just every time you have any idea, just put it in the same place so you can go and look at it when you're not feeling like you have anything to write about. And if you're a person who pays attention you will be overwhelmed by how much you have in that folder probably.
Aaron: Yeah. When I remember to open my Voice Memos app, Right, right. Exactly.
adjacent to that about two years ago I was listening to a different podcast and I heard somebody say that Your mind is for having ideas, not holding ideas. And from there I've
Laurie: Love it.
Aaron: trying to do that, trying to record things rather than like, you know, when you have a melody pop in your head or something and you're like,
Aaron: I'm not gonna forget
Laurie: I'll never forget it. Wrong. Well, that's, that's me. I know that I'm wrong now.
Aaron: yeah. Absolutely. I kinda wanna pivot a little bit and just kind of ask you a little bit about, since you are our first guest that has [00:31:00] been fully in this kids music world,
Laurie: Yep.
Aaron: ask how the evolution of the industry has been for you.
More so being like, we're in a streaming world now. How has that experience been for you and with your music? 'cause numbers on streaming platforms that show them are incredible. aside from that, I know that a kid will listen to the same song
Laurie: Over and over. Yes. Or more. I
get emails about that. My mom told me to tell you it was 47 times one night because I was feeling really mad, you know, or whatever.
Aaron: Yep. I've lived that experience. Absolutely. Yeah.
Laurie: Yeah.
Aaron: you could just kind of talk in general, just how that has been since, you've 30 years in this industry, you've kind of seen
Laurie: Yeah, my first, my first albums were on cassettes. Yeah. And I was so proud of my different colored cassettes so that kids could say, I want the yellow, I want that one. I want that one. I, there it was yellow, it was blue, or it was red. And they didn't even have to know colors, but they would know which one had a song on it that they wanted,
which I felt was like, yay.
Give the kids some power. Yeah, it started, I've [00:32:00] been through a lot of changes. Sometimes it's been very difficult, but I've been also really lucky and had a lot of good people working with me who helped me pivot. If that's not the most overly used buzzword since covid, but I just feel like it really is something that I have been doing.
Since I started, because it was cassettes, and then suddenly they all disappeared and I needed to have CDs, so I had to re-release them. And I didn't have a record label except two Tomatoes, which was me. And so it was like, okay, so I have to figure out, what do I do with all these cassettes?
so then CDs, then suddenly that became downloads.
So then I had to figure out how to have everything available. And then streaming started.
And there was a big loss a while where there was a huge dip because streaming had not. Groan fast enough for me with parents, because parents were still listening to CDs, but they weren't buying new ones, So the CD sales were going down and the [00:33:00] streaming was like creeping up just a little bit.
And that was a very, hard shift. But eventually
happens, parents tend to be a little bit behind in the technological changes. They tend to stay with the media that they're used to and also what's simple for their kids. At least that's been my experience over time. So I could sell CDs a lot longer than other people, the streaming took a long little longer to build.
And but now that is how most people get their music or they go on YouTube and they listen to it through YouTube. But it's coming from Some way of coming into their home. That's not a physical product except now there are toys which you may have heard of or know.
Yes. So like Tony's Yoko's, story box,
And there's a few other brands I don't know as well because I work with Yoko and with Tony's, but that basically it's a cassette except it streams the
music, right. and it looks [00:34:00] like a card it looks like a figurine we've gone back to the Walkman
or something of the difficulties with streaming is so much material in the world.
There's so much content. How do you get people to focus in on Or how do I get people to focus in on what I've specifically created? And so getting people to know who I was again, because kids grow up and then parents just like you, you were like, I didn't know that song existed until 18 months ago. And,
so finding that connection a Tony or a Yto Boxes has been very helpful to me because parents are buying the toy. They tell each other about it. That's how I started. It was like, take this cassette and put it in your player, and like your child will stop screaming. Like that's How I think my first album got shared.
And so similarly now it's like, buy this figurine and you'll keep your kids engaged for an hour. so people are like, I don't know who this lady is. And suddenly I have someone [00:35:00] new who's listening and might then go stream the music.
Michaela: it's so interesting, like the ever-changing mediums Yes,
honestly, it's exhausting. mm-hmm.
Laurie: yes.
Michaela: even like, we grew up with CDs. our cars don't have CD players. I still print, CDs to sell for myself. there are still people who buy CDs,
Laurie: Yep.
Michaela: but, you know, like having a kid, we have a yo OTO player and,
okay, she could ask me to put on music, which she does and we have to like, go through the streaming and it's on our phone or whatever.
Versus she has a handful of cards that she can look through and pick out her favorite one that feels reminiscent of what it was like to grow up with cassette tapes or CDs in the nineties.
Laurie: Flipping through the CDs at Tower Records, that's my,
Michaela: Yep.
Aaron: You've mentioned a couple times, like your business people that, work for you.
is everything that you do in-house, you work with like an external booking agent? I know you have a publicist, obviously we are, we've worked with that, but how much of your business is in-house?
Laurie: A lot of it is, but I have a booking [00:36:00] agent who I've been working with him for 20 years. I sort of think of him as part of he and the PR person come to a biweekly meeting with myself, my COO who basically runs the label and then our admin person.
Then I also have a social media person, like we all have meetings together just so that everybody kind of knows what's going on with what I'm doing. 'cause it's not just putting out a song I just feel like I'm touching a lot of different things, and
then of course, the shows and then promoting the shows and whatever products.
So all that stuff we talk about. So I think of them as part of my team, but there's really just three people that I employ as part of Two Tomatoes Records.
Michaela: And have you, you've always had your own label and owned your, all of your work,
Laurie: No. So,
When I started was just A DBA and then, somewhere in the early two thousands I became an LLC and did own all my music. Until then, I sold a lot of my back [00:37:00] catalog to Kids bop slash conquered music. Years ago,
something that I never thought that anyone would ever be interested in or want to do, but kids Bop was actually not a label.
They were razor and Tie was the label. And I had worked with them as my distributor for a very long time. actually distributed my own stuff for a while and it's like impossible. Like I
can't, I had to mail things to stores from my one bedroom apartment and ship things. All it was, ridiculous.
So, and I had to store it in my freaking living room. I had like piles of CD boxes that were, you know, threatening to fall on my head and I almost got divorced, that was terrible that time.
But the thing was that until I was selling enough. For a distributor to be interested. The only way to get my stuff into stores and like children's toy stores and music stores and stuff, was to mail it there myself.
So I would hire friends and their friends to come over and have mailing [00:38:00] parties. And but eventually when I started working with Razor and Tie, then they got bought by Concord,
five years ago So when they were being bought out, razor and Tie was gonna be consumed brought into Concord and kind of go away and becoming kids Bop.
so they approached me this wonderful, someone who worked at Razor and Tie talked to the conquered people and were like, so we have this musician who kind of outside the box somehow is still like, doing stuff after 20, 25 years, whatever. And you might wanna talk to her.
think that her catalog would be worth something to you and you might be able to really do something with it. So, That was like, sending my children to college or like letting them move out of the house. I felt like an empty nester that moment. 'cause letting go of being completely in control of all of my music was very scary.
I Do have a bunch of albums that I've made since then that are back. it's all owned by me, but the stuff that they own, I still have approvals over things. Like we made a, deal [00:39:00] that has worked very nicely for me generally, and we meet very often and talk about what are they doing with my music and how can I help and how can they help me?
That's been a really lovely relationship to have. It's not perfect, but it definitely has taken some things off of my plate. 'cause back to the, do I do everything in house? Like, I'm a very small company. I can't afford to do a lot of things so they can do things on a slightly larger scale if they wanna put the budget into it.
And that's always really helpful and fun to have that injected into what I'm doing.
Michaela: Yeah. Incredible.
Laurie: Yeah,
Michaela: I have one question I'm like dying to ask you,
Laurie: sure.
Michaela: gonna seem funny. so curious if the schedule as a kid's musician changing to like not having super late nights and like how different the tour schedule, how that impacted your life and your creativity.
Laurie: I made my life so much better.
Aaron: Okay.
Laurie: I mean, I I'm actually a very, I'm kind of a night [00:40:00] owl and I do have to get up quite early. Like I have shows this weekend and I have to be in an Uber at 6:00 AM with my hair washed in my bed. Like, you know, I just feel like I've started to become a much more of a morning person, but also that changes when you have a child.
Um, but it, hard for me to go to sleep at night, but I really didn't love the, AM 5:00 AM going to bed. That was like too late for me. So, A lot of my shows are at 11 if there's a two show day I might have a three or a four o'clock. I can be done with my day usually, even if I'm driving home from somewhere, sometimes in the afternoon if I have one show and I'm just driving
if it's a, yeah, and I mean, and touring touring is I go somewhere for the weekend,
And I go for multiple weekends or I take a weekend off in between.
like a full weekend would be 11 and three. Saturday, 11 and three. Sunday I leave on Friday, I get home Sunday night or Monday [00:41:00] afternoon if I'm flying from California or wherever. So it might be three and a half. Days or four days at the most. That's really what it means for me.
if I play during the week it's unusual because kids are
in school, parents are working. Like people don't come out on a Tuesday night with their 3-year-old at,
you know, nine o'clock.
Aaron: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oh
Laurie: So, but creative wise, I don't know how much it impacted me except that I got a little more sleep, I think.
Aaron: Yeah. that sounds great to me. It really does. But that kinda schedule, I'm like, yeah, I get it.
Michaela: Especially 'cause we've toured with our babies and for me, being a nursing mom on where you're playing night after night
Laurie: Yep.
Michaela: getting back to the hotel until like midnight and then having to pump and wake.
I'm just like, I'm like, maybe I need to start writing kids music.
Laurie: Yeah. Right. I mean, Any, I did also travel while I was nursing for a while, but It was daytime and we brought a babysitter and we'd do a feeding right after the show.
[00:42:00] Just, it's,
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Amazing.
Aaron: We like to wrap up our conversations with kind of asking everybody the same question. It's a. Choose your own adventure. So it's either, would you tell your younger self that's just starting to make a career of your creativity, or there something that somebody else has told you along the way that it just like really just shifted your whole paradigm and stuck with you?
Laurie: I think I will answer the first one, which is,
you're gonna be okay. That's what I would tell myself because I was terrified. That letting go of my paying jobs and just really believing that I could make a career out of performing writing and recording music for kids it just felt very risky,
Because I didn't really see anybody else doing that except Raffi,
or like Barney, someone in a, dinosaur suit. And I was like, I'm a person. I wanna stay a person. I wanna be a musician. so I think just telling myself like, it's gonna work out I would've been less [00:43:00] stressed, although maybe I wouldn't have worked so hard.
Michaela: That's true.
Laurie: Who knows?
Michaela: Yeah. Is it the carrot on the stick? Yeah.
Laurie: Yeah. I mean, yeah. I have a lot of drive in that way of once I get involved in something I'm very persistent I like to see it through. even though that can be very difficult to finish, it can be hard to finish. But I will work and work and work. Yeah.
who knows what it, how it would've affected me.
Aaron: Yeah, I don't know if you noticed, both of us kinda went, Yeah. And you said you're gonna be okay because like,
Laurie: Yeah.
Aaron: that we have to say to each other Yeah.
often. You know, it's just like,
Michaela: remind each other of the evidence that it has been okay,
Laurie: Yeah.
Michaela: that we're this far, I mean, again, this is why we one of the many reasons why we started this podcast, 'cause
we have no plan B, this is what we've been doing our entire adult life. We're gonna weather all the storms that come our way. we're having so many conversations with other artists around the dinner table that felt so incongruous with what. Everybody was posting [00:44:00] on social media that we were like, wait, I thought everything was going great.
And then we'd have dinner and they'd be like, I'm stressed about this, or I don't feel financially stable or
Laurie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michaela: to have these conversations to support other and learn from, especially from people who've been navigating longer than us.
Laurie: that makes me think that Another way to think about it, is You're in this for the long game,
and I think it's easy to compare when someone else maybe who's doing something similar to you is in the limelight for a short amount of time, or seems like something really great is happening to them.
That'll happen to you. That has happened to you. It's gonna then not happen to you. It's like I just feel like that's been my whole life is oh, oh my God, I'm in some magazine and then like a day later I see all those magazines in the garbage. You know, It's like that feeling of like, oh, it's over so fast.
You know? And it is because life keeps [00:45:00] going I mean, I imagine this is part of also why you created this podcast and the name of it, sort of, you know, the 22 hours, like those couple hours of woo, this feels so amazing and there's like a big adrenaline high from something going really well, a show a placement somewhere and interview a moment on social media or whatever the thing is.
And then you have to go back and write another song or like for me what do I wanna do today? Do I wanna go on a hike? You know, like, the first time I was on The Today Show, my husband was still in the band and like we had gotten up at three in the morning or something like that, and we just played to millions of people live on television.
And then we were walking home and we were like should we go to the diner? How come nobody, like, nobody on the street knows, like, you know, we, what, we just did something really cool, everybody, and then it, it was just over, you know? And of course there were different things that, you know, reverberations from that.
But it's humbling,
you know, To realize what the experience of that actually is. [00:46:00] And I have my own like drive and competitiveness and stuff that I have to really check a lot of times and remind myself Hey, you've been doing this a long time. You've had a lot of great. Things happen to you, you're gonna have more, you've also had a lot of really, crappy things happen to you.
You're gonna have a lot more, and you know, and just keep doing what you do because that's also what prepares you for whatever's coming at you. Speaking of that today show, like I could never have done that performance if I hadn't been playing and playing and playing, because basically they like stuck us out there and some guy went, okay, in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
And then we were just like, live. And I was like, okay. You know, I mean, when I did it, I thought, oh I know how to do this. I've played this song a billion times already. I think it was Buzz or something. And it, you know, even back, whatever, how many years ago this was had already played it hundreds of times,
you know, I was prepared.
Yes,
Michaela: and
Laurie: yes.
Michaela: and
Laurie: Yeah. Yeah. It's just like we're preparing for every next day, [00:47:00] right? There's always,
it's like the turndowns today, and then there's like the happy things that will hopefully happen tomorrow.
Michaela: It's the come down of like always remembering oh, this is the stasis, is like the thing to enjoy the in-between times. But I think it can be such a challenge because it feels so good to get that high and that rush, and that's why so many people get into trouble of constantly trying to chase that
Laurie: Yeah.
It's true.
Michaela: the conversation we have over and over and over again. Yeah. There's a, There's a book
Aaron: that a friend had, kind of parallel to this. And I haven't read the whole thing, I only skimmed through it a little bit. 'cause he was in the act of reading it. We were outta town for a show.
But it's called Nirvana Comes the Laundry. he's big into Buddhism. It's all on mindfulness and all of this. And so it's like, you work at this, you work at this, and then you reach this point of nirvana, and then you have to do the
Laurie: And you still have to do the laundry.
Aaron: gotta do the dishes,
Laurie: Yep. It's so true.
Aaron: going back to the mundane, after you do this thing that is just like completely life altering. then there's still chores.
Laurie: Yep.
Aaron: just the mundane life where, 90% of our existence is in that middle ground. [00:48:00] That is, is not doing the laundry extraordinarily good or extraordinarily bad.
It just is, where we exist.
Laurie: Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah.
Awesome. Lori, thank you so
Laurie: Thanks. It was fun to talk to
you guys. Good luck. Good luck with everything. Okay, bye.