Leslie Mendelson is a Grammy nominated songwriter from New York City, a favorite of Jackson Browne and Jakob Dylan, she released her first record on RykoDisc before moving to releasing the past 4+ independently. We talk about self sufficiency in the music industry, learning to record yourself, the lack of female representation in the industry especially on the production/engineering end of the spectrum, the gear buying fallacy, combating perfectionism, and more.
Leslie Mendelson is a Grammy nominated songwriter from New York City, a favorite of Jackson Browne and Jakob Dylan, she released her first record on RykoDisc before moving to releasing the past 4+ independently. We talk about self sufficiency in the music industry, learning to record yourself, the lack of female representation in the industry especially on the production/engineering end of the spectrum, the gear buying fallacy, combating perfectionism, and more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. We are on episode 116, and this week we're featuring our conversation with Leslie Mendelson.
Aaron: Leslie Mendelson is a Grammy nominated singer songwriter from Brooklyn, New York.
She put her first record out in. late OTTs, is that what you call it? 2009 is OTTs. Those are the Ts? Yeah, I think so. I'm learning as we go. On the label, Ricco disc and then has released her subsequent records either independently or with Royal Potato Family, which if you guys don't know, that is a indie label that is also home to Lots of previous guests of ours, including the Wood Brothers, Larry Campbell and Theresa Williams, Seth Walker. It's a great little family of artists of [00:01:00] Royal Potato family, if you will. And in addition to putting out a bunch of records Jackson Brown and Jacob Dylan are both self-proclaimed fans of Leslie's music.
Michaela: And Leslie's been doing this a long time, so we were able to really talk about a lot of the lifelong journey of long stretches between records. Cycles that are driven by business versus creative pacing, the challenges of internal versus external validation surrounding yourself with an inspiring community and even starting on the endeavor of learning how to record yourself.
Aaron: Yeah. Which. Is a never ending journey. Take it from me as we sit here in my now purpose-built studio in the backyard. It is never ending. It's a great hobby to have if you have too much money and you wanna get rid of it though. Hmm.
Michaela: Which we don't. So,
Aaron: but as you guys know lots of the topics that we touch on in these conversations come as direct suggestions from subscribers to our Patreon.
Patreons, if you will, because they get advanced notice of our guests and. Are able to [00:02:00] submit questions topics, vibes for us to touch on in our conversations beforehand. so if that sounds intriguing to you or if you would like the moral satisfaction of supporting a small production show like ours, that is the only way to do it.
There is a link below in the show notes,
Michaela: and if you are a visual person, this and all of our past conversations are available on YouTube. But without further ado, here is our conversation with Leslie Mendelsohn.
Leslie: So first off, Thank you for agreeing to chat with us and spending an hour of your day. I'm Mikayla, this is Aaron and we
Michaela: I kind of often like to start with just a general, how are you today and where are you in your kind of creative path right now?
Leslie: I like that, that had like the Meghan Markle kind of thing that sparked off lots of things last week. How are you? I'm, I'm okay. You know it's interesting 'cause you know, when I got the memo for what your podcast was about, I started [00:03:00] thinking about. when you're not on stage. I had that kind of revelation a couple months ago of just what do we do on the off hours?
it's so funny that this came along, but, um, I'm okay. good. I'm trying to manage my time. I have some friends and family members who, struggle as artists with time management.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. how to make the most of a day when you don't have a normal job.
Leslie: And so yeah, a few months ago I started thinking, what am I gonna do when I'm off tour this summer? What am I gonna sink my teeth into? It can't just be tour home, tour, hang out with friends, you know? I'm like, What am I gonna do? So I, bought a bunch of gear during the pandemic to start, like thinking about how to record and get into it, and, and I just kind of abandoned it because it's so difficult and I'm like, I don't have the capacity for it.
But then, couple months ago I was like, no, I need to start doing it like another language or something almost mandatory as an artist something like a language you should learn. [00:04:00] And so it's so overwhelming. I'm really at the beginning, but. I'm in the gear buying phase, which is such a, a pit, I started about all the sounds inside and I'm like, I have to be a rocket scientist.
I to, like, get into it. I was just like, but if I buy better gear, it'll make everything easier. So that's kind of where I'm at and I'm
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: much. Getting to a point where I think I just wanna make things sound good 'cause hard. and then I could start thinking about recording my next record.
Or if people want things done, I don't have to go to an engineer
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean. That's how I got started. We were living in Brooklyn and I was like, I'm gonna start recording myself. we went to the new school in Manhattan. We, and we we went to the jazz school there, which is now changed, and it's like a performing arts, all inclusive kind of thing, which.
It was great for that, but I started engineering there and I worked at the new school and engineered there, and it was like somehow got hired to record the ensembles and recitals and all of that. So if anybody that you know graduated from the new school, sometime between [00:05:00] 2007 and 2014 is listening, I'm really sorry that you're senior recital didn't sound the way you wanted it to.
That's on me. I got hired after writing one 10 page paper. Stepped into that, doing it outside of the new school, just the same way, just by like, I'm just gonna start buying gear, and I don't mean to be a dream killer. It's kind of exciting. But that whole, like, I'm just gonna buy better gear.
that desire doesn't go away. I've been buying gear for 15, 17 years now, and it's, it's still going.
Leslie: I know Yeah.
bottomless pit. I mean, I'm getting to a point where, well, once you start realizing, you're like, okay, so I, knew I just had to get myself to a certain level of like, I didn't have a good mic.
Aaron: Yeah.
Leslie: trying to record off the mic that I used live, which is an SM Beta
57, 58, something like that.
Just like regular mic and it was like, oh, muddy and stuff. And I'm like, you know, I'm trying to get into all the little things of like, how do I make it sound better? I'm like, it's too much. It's too
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: I can't,
I can't make it sound better. I'm like. if I had better gear, maybe I can make things
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: So that's where I'm like, I just [00:06:00] want the easiest way from point A to point B. ' that's my life in general. Trying to like figure out just how to do things I,
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.
Leslie: know,
because things are hard, like learning songs sometimes, you know, like, gotta like pull a little piece off at a time and
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: try to just figure it out.
Michaela: and like. Maintaining or creating more areas in your life where you can be self-sufficient especially as a working artist where you kind of like need a lot of these different avenues. I think about that all the time because I am not into gear. I cannot, for the life of me, I've multiple times through my life, like bought an interface and tried to record and I just get overwhelmed and then I'm.
Married a producer who, we have a recording studio, so now I'm like really enabled, but every time I get a remote backup singing gig or something, it's a pain because I have to ask him. So it's
like this.
Leslie: well, this is, this is how it started for me. I was, asked to do something a commission for a wedding, and the money wasn't great, but I [00:07:00] was just like, I didn't take it for the money. I was just thinking this is a good excuse for me to do it myself because it, not worth it to take it to an engineer.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally.
Michaela: Yeah.
Leslie: and now like, you know, thousands of dollars.
Aaron: Yeah,
Leslie: I needed a jumping off point anyway. Was an excuse, but Yeah. And you know, and it's funny because I've been meeting some more women who have just started to like, scratch the surface and I don't know, maybe it's just a funny time of just talking to more women about gear.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. something new. and let me preface this by saying I'm still like, so at the beginning of this, but you know, maybe in a year we'll be like, look at, I've recorded it, but like right now I'm, all about like asking people questions but it's nice to see a few more women coming out and be like, got a new mic
Yeah. Yeah, It's absolutely wild how few women there are on this side of the recording, engineers, producers, mixers. It's, It's absolutely wild. And
Leslie: why. It's just, it's like, I guess, bass players and drummers for a while just felt like [00:08:00] male dominated.
Michaela: yeah. Mm-hmm.
Leslie: more I.
Michaela: I mean, I think there's growing support for it and encouragement, but I think it's one of those things that, it's also an area that hasn't felt very inviting. Like there's all these little messages. We all get male and female, any gender like of where you're invited or allowed to operate.
And I've definitely never felt like, it was a space that I. Could lean into. And then at that point then I was like, lost interest. And I remember in college getting messages, like becoming a, theory tutor and my advisor was like, oh yeah, the other, girl singers would really like that.
And I was like. No, I'm tutoring all of your male horn players and all these guys that you think are superstars who are on full scholarship. Yeah, the
Aaron: varsity football team. But that
Michaela: little message of the assumption was like, oh, it'd be really helpful for the other chick singers to be tutored by another chick singer.
It's just those things are internalized of like, oh, this is where I'm supposed to stay. [00:09:00] I'm not supposed to go to that class or be in that room.
And I think obviously there's a lot more talk about that and supporting female producers and engineers. So hopefully that continues. And then there are more spaces where you can talk to other women who care about microphone sounds.
Leslie: Gear
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: It's like,
and it's funny because, yeah, it's just another language that, I've never talked about before. Now I'm just like, so what do you think of that compressor? And I just,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: you know, and it's just kind of a fun new, like avenue. So, that's one thing.
Aaron: that's, that's awesome. And that's cool too. And I can safely say like, that's just gonna open up a whole other level of your creativity too. You know, being a singer and a songwriter and somebody that makes your own records, understanding, you don't need to be able to record and have it sound like.
name whatever, multimillion dollar studio in Manhattan or here in Nashville. Just understanding like the possibilities of what you can do while recording or like different ways of
micing things different. Sounds like it is gonna open up the way you write, the way you approach making [00:10:00] records.
Like it's just gonna open up so many more avenues.
Leslie: no, it's true. and I wanna start Like, I just wanna get like a good sound for my voice and my guitar and this is like a really perfect opportunity for me to not you know, just, I don't wanna fuck off either. And
Aaron: Yeah.
Leslie: you know, with my time.
And then that leads to like, it's not healthy
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Leslie: touring I would say that is my job, but it, it's not everything and it can't be everything
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: you know? And, um, these are all just like meditations too, of just what is life?
Aaron: Yeah.
Leslie: But,
Michaela: yeah. You just said, I'm well aware that I should be thinking about making my next record. Can you share more about that what you.
Leslie: I think it's just an artist's is they put out records consistently. [00:11:00] I'm, kind of in that three to four year schedule, I guess right now. The last few records have come out every four years, which is fine. You know, and before that, there was a huge gap.
so I'm, I'm happy that I'm stuff, you know, it's as much pressure as you want it to be. it's kind of just what's next? Thinking about what do I have to say? What do I
Michaela: Hmm.
Leslie: sing? you know, and I was thinking maybe, um, I could focus on some covers of things that I, like the sound of my voice and that kind of helps me think about maybe songs that I'd like to write.
but yeah, uh, I have a few cover ideas too, like of albums that I, I wanna do, like I've always thought about like, some of the classics, like not just the American songbook, but like specifically I love like Randy Newman and Harry Nelson and, jimmy Webb and there's that specific kind of songbook and those are songs I can really dig into on piano.
And so this kind of would be the perfect opportunity for me to just think [00:12:00] about doing that with this new setup that I have
not high pressure.
I just wanna like make something that sounds good at this point.
Aaron: Yeah.
Leslie: I write it or not
Aaron: Yeah.
Leslie: and something that I feel inspired about,
Aaron: to generalize things? It seems like people fall into two camps again, broad generalization of being like, okay, I need to make a record. Let's write for that record or writing and then being like, oh, I have all these songs. This is a record. Does that make sense?
what comes first? It's usually like time's out. Time's up. Just get it together.
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron: Set a deadline. Yeah.
Leslie: and it's always 11th hour, but you know, there's, ideas that percolate and then I'm like Let's finish. You know, and
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: co-writer I work with, Steve McEwen, who is a professional songwriter, so he knows how to do the nine to five, you know,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: how to,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: write a song where me, I'm like, I have an idea.
It could take me forever to finish. Like, come on. Even if it's a good idea, like let's go.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Hmm.
Leslie: He'll, uh, do the whip. But, you know,
it's, two different kinds of writing. I like coming up with [00:13:00] ideas, but when it's time to make a record, you really have to like, step it up,
Aaron: The deadlines. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Leslie: It
Aaron: Yeah.
Leslie: things done.
Aaron: Yeah.
force your hand, be like, I'm doing this.
Well, there's booking city time or whatever.
Leslie: Yep.
Aaron: the seed. Talking about it. Even just talking about it to your, circle of
people. Be like, I'm making a record.
Leslie: they will come.
Aaron: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Aaron: and you know, to tie that into what you were saying about potentially doing this covers thing and having that be a way for you to figure out your setup, that is totally it, like,
Leslie: that's kind of what I feel like's gonna bridge the gap. cause I just need to do something too, and. when something's also been hanging around a long time, like ideas that I've been thinking about this for a long time, just like, just let's do it
Aaron: Yeah.
Leslie: have to hire studio and people and this and that.
I'm like, this is gonna, yeah, help
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: bridge the gap.
Michaela: I read on your, in my research about you, the big gap that you referenced between records 2009 to 2017, if I'm
correct. and I read also that there was a record made in there that never [00:14:00] was released.
Michaela: Can you share some of that? Because I'm always curious about when we have these long stretches of time.
I remember in my twenties, living in New York just starting out befriending artists who were in their thirties or forties and like, I remember just very naively and ignorantly being like, If they'd gone a long time between releases or hadn't quite, done some of the things they hoped to do, I remember kind of thinking like, well, what have you been doing?
Because my life was so narrowly focused on, oh, this is what I'm gonna do with my life. And now I'm 38 I'm like, oh, I can imagine a million things they've been doing, they've been living, they've been, caring for people in their life, caring for themselves. Struggling with a lot of obstacles in this career of deals and business and whatever.
There's millions of things I just didn't have a vision of the way that our full big lives impact our ability to not just create, but also put it out in the world. So with that kind of preface and [00:15:00] context, do you feel comfortable sharing kind of what, happened for you?
Leslie: well, I released my first like debut on a label on Riko disc in 2009. That was a really hard record to make. You know, I was working with a producer who I loved so much, but then, you know, things were getting, I. They were just falling apart a little bit. He also got sick and then he actually passed away.
but we had signed on to work with another producer, which was also, it was just, I don't know, the whole thing was just like, really hard to get out. and I did not like that record for a while. It was hard to listen to it. I had a lot of regrets and I wish I did this differently and that differently, and so I think it took me a minute to like, recover from that.
but Steve and I were still writing, and then around like 2012, we went in to record a new batch of songs, but they didn't have a home. It didn't have a label. you know, I got out of my, label I got out of the deal I didn't have management at the time, and then I got this opportunity to go to England and the record was just kind of hanging there, it's not even a bad [00:16:00] record. It's, good. But it was just, just shelved. And then I did some other projects Started recording, but then it didn't get finished. It was like, all these starts and stops, and then you start to get in your head of like, it takes so long.
Then you, you're worried that not gonna be the right thing when you do release something. It's just like too much pent up. But then a producer reached out to me, Mark Howard, so I
Michaela: started
Leslie: send him demos of things that I'd been working on over the last, you know, at this point, six years.
some of the stuff, I'd recorded some other things, and he's just like, this sounds great. He's like, we should do a record. It was just me and him. He got me in a room and it wasn't like, most amazing thing I, thought I could make, but it was just something
Aaron: Yeah.
Leslie: needed to come out.
And that's when I met Kevin Caliber from Royal Potato Family. And, you know, we were listening to a couple of the things that I did make over the last six years, and he said, this is the one that I think best represents what you're doing now, so let's put that out. And that became love and murder.
that was, uh. [00:17:00] of just trying to,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: caught up I think that's another reason why I said I have a deadline. 'cause I just need to keep doing things, whether they're good or bad. I, I want to be good, of course, but, you know, but what is good?
It's all subjective anyway. You just, try your best.
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. what you're talking about, like, basically sitting on a recording that is such fertile ground for it to go either way. 'cause it's
that
I'm not gonna know the psychological term for it. I wanna say like Schrodinger's record or something like that, where like it could be amazing and like
world changing or it could be absolutely horrible and end your career and like the more you just sit on it, one of those is going to spiral out, [00:18:00] and I always say that like being a singer songwriter is one of the most vulnerable art forms there is because like, you're minding the depths of your heart, your brain, your experiences to write these songs. And then you're singing them, which, you know, the human voice is, it's such a vulnerable instrument approach.
So you couple those two together. It's such a vulnerable personal art form that like, of course we care about them. everybody's like, is this good? it's, I think it's Mm-hmm. I don't know. And then so if you're sitting on it and it takes forever to come out, that can just like compound so quickly.
And I, seen it. Just kind of build this big barricade to not just like career momentum, but creative momentum.
Leslie: It's a psychological, it's just the worst thing you could
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Because, because
Michaela: then you're also putting a lot of weight on. What the response will be. It's like you're making this thing and then you're anticipating so heavily, well, how will it be received? And then that's gonna tell me, that's going to inform how I should feel about this thing I made, which is
so dangerous.
Leslie: it's the worst. Like I made a [00:19:00] good record 'cause someone likes it and I made a bad record because they didn't like it as much. And I'm like,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: about
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Leslie: I realize I have no feelings it's terrible that everything is like, based on public opinion. And I'm like, it's the worst thing for an artist to be that fragile and I don't know how I can change that.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: therapy. It's like a little branch, like waving in the, wind. my goal one day is to know that in my heart that I made something that I love and I don't give a shit if somebody else it. I don't know.
I dunno if I've ever made the record that I, love to the point where I don't care what people think. That's a good goal.
Aaron: Do you think it's possible for you to ever make Yeah.
Leslie: do think it's possible. I just have to, uh, you know, it's, work. I don't know. It's hard. And that's okay.
Aaron: do you have any awareness of what, those markers would be you know, the boxes to check that would make it a record that you're proud of? the parts of that.
Leslie: not proud of
Michaela: you feel like is
Leslie: [00:20:00] am just like, on any given day, I'll hate it or love it.
Aaron: For
sure. Yeah. All of us.
Leslie: um, I've had both feelings. Very visceral, very real. I don't know. I've made things that I know are good.
And it's just one of those, things I, I just will keep trying. We'll see how this new one goes. I'll let you know
Aaron: Yeah,
Leslie: about it when I finish it,
Michaela: help, but feel.
yeah, I can't help but wonder though, which will come first for you or for any of us, if you make the record and feel like, oh, I finally did it. I made the record, that's gonna make me feel good enough that I won't care what the audience. Believes or thinks or responds, or will I get to a place where I don't care as much what the audience thinks or feels, and then I'm able to make the record I
Leslie: the latter is probably, I. The
Michaela: mm-hmm.
Leslie: I feel like, as we record so much of that's psychological too about overthinking feeling free in the studio to, you know, that usually when I [00:21:00] don't like something, it's because I could hear myself being critical as I'm performing
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Leslie: and second guessing myself sometimes, or be like, you know, I could have, you know, do you know what I
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: to achieve freedom is another thing. And I, I think you're right, It's just about, you know,Your overall being
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: in that place.
Aaron: Yeah. And that voice, is like, no, that wasn't it, you know, is never nice. and I'm paraphrasing a friend of ours and guess of ours is on here, Aaron Lee Tasn, who said that same thing. He's very upfront about like, oh yeah, that voice is always there.
And it's never like, Yeah, well, you know, you gave your best and it was awesome. It's always like, oh, what? No, that didn't come out the right way. Like that sounds,
Leslie: I
Aaron: and
you know, I always kind of relate it to, we name, air quotes, perfect record, whatever, you know, whatever you think that is this ideal record, whether it's, a Paul Simon record or a Steely Dan record or something, you know, where it's like, oh, wow, Michael Jackson, you know, all these quintessential,
Leslie: transcended, yeah. like,
you
Aaron: Yeah, but what, but we're, [00:22:00] but what, we're, not seeing when we listen to that record is the gap between their intent and their execution, it's in that gap, at least in my experience, is like where that shitty voice is. You know, it's like, I ha intend this and what comes out is this. like what came out might be incredible, but is not fully what I was hearing in my head.
Leslie: Yeah.
Aaron: I just like berate myself.
Leslie: yeah, and then there's just different levels of genius and we have to come to terms with that too. McCartney and, there's people I. Songwriters at the top of their game, and then people who are producing at the top. You know, It's just, such a spectrum of things.
Just trying to, I guess, feel comfortable in what I do and my, of doing it.
Michaela: and I think also the journey of really believing and understanding that outside success doesn't determine quality of work or talent because there's so many other factors of luck, of timing, of what's popular, of what opportunities are being given, all of that stuff.
Leslie: Like being really [00:23:00] good on social media doesn't mean that you're really good at.
Michaela: Correct.
Leslie: entertainer.
Michaela: Yes. And in today's world, I think about this every time I look at Instagram, because you know, if it's on my discover page or whatever, and I'm getting fed like profiles to watch and like we have two kids. And so I look at a lot of parents stuff. I see these like influencer profiles who are there's like.
A hundred of the same videos made by all these different influencers. So social media doesn't reward the algorithm, doesn't reward like this super unique exploration, like artistically driven thing that a lot of us, I think artists, Like and want and strive to be. It, rewards kind of sameness and staying in one box and delivering the content that is popular that will
be fed to people.
So it's really at odds with what I think a lot of people when it comes down to what our, true like motivation is to creating art.
Leslie: [00:24:00] yes.
Aaron: I always say it's like, you know, we, subliminally or just defacto assume that like success in social media. Means like, oh, it's because the music's good and like people that are successful on social media.
Just understand the algorithm and you play that. and the trick is is like, yeah, yeah.
that's something that I get so frustrated with, and I think that's one of the reasons why I decided to get into recording too. 'cause I'm never gonna be an influencer. I don't have that gene. I hate it. Yes. Am I on Instagram all the time? unhealthy amount.
Leslie: Yes. I am just not into making content and I don't have that gene,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: for me. And I'm
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: what are other things I could do? You know, because this is something that, I'll keep trying to like, things too put up there.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: far as, you know, that whole there's people that are just really good at
Leslie: and it's, amazing. Yeah. And it doesn't mean anything other than that, like people that are really good at promotion. It's been like that throughout. Well, more so now.
Michaela: Yeah. [00:25:00] Going back to what you were saying about like being so tied to, looking to the audience or people to tell you how you feel about your. Music and your work. One of the things I've been doing for myself the last several years when I feel like I'm being ruled by outside response or how things are going in my career to inform my self-worth or how I feel about my life and work is I dial it back and I'm like, what am I looking for in this?
what am I looking for? For people to tell me I'm good at what I like to do. And ultimately for me, it comes back to. Feeling loved and feeling like I belong and feeling like I'm accepted. And so I've taken to the practice of being like, well, is this the safest place to look for those things in this, like culture
where, you know, we're consuming through our phones and where, you know, there's all these other things happening.
So I'm like, okay, so where can I find the things that can ground me and give me that sense of belonging and love? I'm curious.
I say that to you, like [00:26:00] what that brings up in relation to how you share your work.
Leslie: Well, there's like, I guess two aspects of it. As far as being an entertainer. It's hard when the audience isn't with you, but for
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: they are. And I feel like I've done that so much that even on an off night, it's like, I don't doubt that I'm good at
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: you know?
But yeah, I still think recording records is, something new for me.
I just feel like it's still nothing that I'm so comfortable with. So I think that. more you get comfortable with something, the more you don't need outside approval. 'cause you just know what you're doing. But sometimes I'm doing something like, ah, what am I doing?
And same thing with like social media. I sometimes you feel like you're bearing your soul to some friends, but a lot of strangers and people that
Michaela: are just
Leslie: quick to like give you opinions too, I feel like there's just a lot of people who.
Want to judge. That's what mm-hmm.
and I kind of, see that it's not easy to be on the other side of it, but knowing that just can't take it
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: and you don't have to read [00:27:00] it. you don't have to make that part of you. But anyway, those are just a few different aspects of how I feel and about trying to keep my mental stability.
Michaela: you've mentioned a few times that entertaining is, where you really feel confident, and that just makes me think, you thrive on the connection that music allows Between humans, so that also makes sense that like recording or promoting on an app that doesn't have the same energy and the connection and the, feedback.
so it's harder to find that when you're really doing it in a silo and it's a very different medium than getting to be face-to-face with other people.
Leslie: and it's the 10,000 hours thing, you know, like I've been on the road for the last few years playing so much it just puts you through. mill, you just you learn how to roll with so many different situations sometimes they're triumph and sometimes they're terrible and you take that and you keep going and, it's like tried and true.
You just keep [00:28:00] doing it. And I
Michaela: really do think
Leslie: About anything.
Michaela: that.
Leslie: the hours and the security and also in the doing. Like, sometimes if you're feeling like sad, you don't know what to do today, pick up something and just play, you know, get back to that thing of just, that's gonna ultimately make better as a musician or,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: something I know, do something.
Aaron: Yeah. Force your own hand, Yeah. I've been thinking, you know, we have a, 4-year-old daughter, and, she's in, in a mode right now where she's like, I, I can't do it. It's too hard. It's too hard. And so I've been really thinking about like, I mean, is it hard or is it just unfamiliar? so much of
what we do falls in the unfamiliar category.
It feels hard and it feels like for instance, like,
Leslie: If it's unfamiliar, you just have to learn.
And do
Aaron: yeah. I mean like, You know, tying it back to what you were saying about learning how to, yeah,
Leslie: as you do.
Aaron: exactly. Tying back to what you were saying about like learning how to record yourself, it seems so daunting at first.
It seems so hard. I mean, like. it is literally called engineering, you know, and the people that are like true engineers, like they [00:29:00] are nerds, they are engineers,
Leslie: They
Aaron: know, and,
Leslie: of time in.
Aaron: and then everything has a number. It's like, it's an 11 to 76 and a 47, and you know, and it's just like
Leslie: there's like two mountains that you have to climb. One is, getting familiar with the software
inside the actual thing. And then the second thing is actually making it sound good. So it's like, you're learning just the fundamentals of pressing.
and stopping and editing and this and that, and then there's the scope of making things sound good. So it is really like two separate things. That's why I'm trying to eliminate getting inside and just going hardware, get good
Michaela: Yeah.
Leslie: it'll be like less work I have to do because I just wanna be able to like, put something up and just sound good and
Aaron: Yep.
Leslie: worry about it.
Aaron: Yeah, exactly. And all of that. It's not hard, it's just unfamiliar. so the,
Leslie: thinking
Aaron: again,
Leslie: we have to do something, just sit around and loaf her out.
Aaron: Yeah.
Leslie: it's some like a goal, you
Aaron: Yeah. and one of the thing that like a friend alerted me to that I didn't really recognize 'cause like. Every engineer is going to have an opinion on the [00:30:00] way something sounds
right.
And this is a friend that, had a studio for a while and then ran live sound for a long time, and now he's a social worker.
He's like, I want nothing to do with it. I've done a lot of work on this myself as recovering engineer, as he says, he's like, as an engineer, you're looking through, when you think about eq, you're like, mm, I don't like the way that sounds, I'm gonna pull that out. He's like, oh, I don't like the way that sounds.
I'm gonna pull that out. He's like. that became my life. all I could do is focus on the things that I don't like and be like, no, I gotta pull that out. No, I
don't. And I gotta pull that out. And it's like, oh wow. So I say that as like a word to you or to like anybody getting into engineering.
It's like every engineer has an opinion and whether they know it or not, all they do is focus on like what
isn't good about it.
Leslie: Yeah, I
Aaron: like.
Leslie: I have a few people that I'm very grateful answer my calls and questions and things that I can talk about, again, I'm just scratching the surface.
Aaron: Yeah.
Leslie: come back to me in a year and
Aaron: Yeah.
Leslie: a recap of like, where are
Michaela: Yeah.
Leslie: now?
Michaela: Well, the other thing I think often about in a music career and in any career, I'm sure I just am not familiar with other [00:31:00] careers. There's all these different compartments that you have to do to have a career as a whole. But we all. Might be drawn to or enjoy or feel naturally talented at different ones.
So if you're a performer, you have to spend time alone or work with one or two people writing and scavenging and. harvesting for that work and creating the music, and then you have to record, and whether you're doing it yourself or hiring people, what entails producing and recording and all of that time and the tedium of a studio, and then you have to think about packaging and marketing and then then you go out there and you get to be with the people and share it.
Hopefully require
Leslie: thing
Michaela: Exactly. All of those.
Leslie: else is just a ball of stress.
Michaela: Exactly. Yeah.
Leslie: the other.
Michaela: And that's not what it is for everybody else. I'm similar to you, I love writing, but like, I don't love studio time that much. I will never want to record [00:32:00] myself, but it just feels a little tedious for me. I don't love rehearsing. I love being on stage.
I had this realization, this weekend playing shows of like, oh, I love music, but I really love people. And the way that connection comes. Other people through music.
Leslie: Yeah.
Michaela: I'm not gonna sit alone and noodle on guitar for hours. Like that's not where I get my energy from. Other great musicians do, I think it's important when we recognize where our highest energy thrives, and then knowing how do we make the other parts more enjoyable, more creative, and where do we like bring in the people to help.
Those parts,
or that's exactly right.
Leslie: Because we're not good at everything. But I think, my mom said at an early age, like, surround yourself with people that are better than
Leslie: know, you don't wanna be the smartest person in the room.
Like, I wanna learn from my friends, and, you know, having people around that can teach you. Things and, help you. I God [00:33:00] that I do have talented friends, you know, whether they're photographers or, just a community of artists
Michaela: I love that.
Aaron: We like to kind of wrap these conversations up with the advice question. So it's kind of a choose your own adventure and it can either be something that somebody has told you along the way. That has allowed you to navigate the topography of this career a little easier or something that you would tell, like younger you that was just stepping into a career based on your art.
Leslie: Well, I think we touched on that on the ladder of telling myself, I feel like if I could go back to any point in my career would've been during my first record and just saying like, take it easy and breathe you know, and I could apply, I could still do this for myself just try to enjoy the process because, We're lucky that we get to make records and, you know, instead of it being like a ball of stress when I'm in the studio to be like, this is special. It's a present. it's not something that happens every day to just, you know, anyone and I did it on my last [00:34:00] record a little bit because, you know, I got to work with.
great musicians and, some legends and to be able to just the moment, and I felt like if I could have told myself that back in like 2008 or seven, I maybe record wouldn't have been so difficult, which, it was hard at first to like come back from that.
So yeah, just relax. Life is long. we always have to do things and keep going, but, just be present and be in the
Aaron: Mm, yeah.
Leslie: to enjoy it.
Aaron: absolutely.
Michaela: We need that as a daily reminders.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Leslie: being present is something that
Aaron: We all do. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, Leslie, thank you so much for taking time outta your afternoon to sit with us and have this conversation and share your experiences with us.
Nice to talk to you guys.
Michaela: Yeah, you too. Likewise, Leslie.
Take care. Thank
you. [00:35:00]