Liz Longley has released 10+ records both independently and with labels such as Rounder Records, raised $150,000 on Kickstarter (the 4th most largest campaign by an independent artist at the time) to buy her finished album back from her former label, and has been critically acclaimed by Billboard, Newsweek, and Pop Matters. We talk to Liz about creators having the power in the music industry, touring as self care, time management with toddlers, balance, the wilderness, and more.
Liz Longley has released 10+ records both independently and with labels such as Rounder Records, raised $150,000 on Kickstarter (the 4th most largest campaign by an independent artist at the time) to buy her finished album back from her former label, and has been critically acclaimed by Billboard, Newsweek, and Pop Matters. We talk to Liz about creators having the power in the music industry, touring as self care, time management with toddlers, balance, the wilderness, and more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne, and we are nearing the end of our second year. So happy to still be here. No sign of stopping. Thank you for being here with us.
[00:00:22] Aaron: Yeah, if you have listened to our show before and know that you enjoy what we do, we have a few asks for you to help us grow our community and continue to get new guests and new ideas to share back with you guys.
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If that sounds like something you'd like to be involved with, there's a link below in the show notes.
[00:01:43] Michaela: And one thing that we really pride ourselves on for this podcast is that we are not music journalists. So we don't really try to call these interviews. We say that they're conversations because we are musicians ourselves.
So as though we invited our guests over and we're sitting around the kitchen table sharing the honest realities of what it is to build a lifelong career around your art.
[00:02:03] Aaron: Which is a completely crazy thing to do as joyful and enjoyable and fulfilling as it is. But the honest reality is that most things are completely outside of our control.
And so we tend to focus these conversations on what is within our control, being our mindsets and headspace and the tools that we found to stay sane and inspired and creative while building a career around our art. And that has been distilled down to the underlying question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
And today we got to ask that question of Liz Longley.
[00:02:36] Michaela: Liz Longley is a singer songwriter based in Nashville. She has released several records. She's critically acclaimed by Pop Matters, Huffington Post, Newsweek, Billboard, and that notably, she is the fourth most funded female musician on Kickstarter back in 2019 when she raised over 150, with the support of her fans to buy back the rights to her record that she had recorded for a record label who told her that she was being dropped and they were going to shelve the record.
It's a pretty astounding and amazing and awesome story and we get to talk about that a lot with her.
[00:03:13] Aaron: Yeah, and we talk about how that has spun into a tighter fan community that she's created, how she's used that to fund other projects, EPs, and records, and how that has empowered her to take full ownership of her career and many creative ways and ideas that she has to grow that and progress that.
We talk about, my favorite thing, time management, because Liz is also a parent, a new parent. And so we talk about creativity with that creativity with the business and a whole wide range of things. So Without further ado, here's our conversation with Liz Longley.
[00:03:48] Michaela: Hi, how are you?
[00:03:50] Liz: Wonderful. I'm so glad to meet you guys. because I've been following you for years Mikayla, watching your journey into motherhood and being on the road and it's been really inspiring as a new mom, myself. So
[00:04:03] Michaela: Oh, thank you
[00:04:04] Liz: And was just in Alaska and met an incredible singer songwriter named Paul Basil, who knows you
[00:04:10] Aaron: Oh yeah.
[00:04:11] Michaela: God.
[00:04:11] Liz: scene.
[00:04:12] Aaron: I played with his band must've been like, was 2010 or something like that, like
a long time ago.
[00:04:20] Michaela: had this band. There's still a band. There's still a band. Great Elk. They were so good. Yeah. That's so crazy.
[00:04:26] Liz: I just got the t shirt.
[00:04:27] Aaron: Amazing. Nice. Yeah, Paul's such a great guy.
[00:04:29] Michaela: And has this guy, Patrick
Hay, who plays guitar with him, or used to I think still lives in New York, but incredible musician and just, yeah, good people. Were you touring in Alaska?
[00:04:40] Liz: Yeah, it was my first time playing shows in Alaska. It was wild. Nothing I've ever experienced before. We were in Anchorage, Valdez, and Bethel. And there was snow on the ground, and we just kept driving, and we ran out
[00:04:53] Michaela: hmm. Wow.
[00:04:54] Liz: the mountains. It was just
[00:04:56] Michaela: Oh, no. Whoa.
Did you take your family or were you by yourself?
[00:05:00] Liz: No, thank God. Okay. me. And I was on a it's a show called Parlor in the Round. So there's several other songwriters you travel with. And it's a show that's based on a lot of improv. And it scared the heck out of me. So I said yes. idea of traveling in Alaska, complete unknown.
And
[00:05:17] Michaela: Yeah. Wow. Wow.
[00:05:19] Liz: ing every night. I was like, wow, that's outside my comfort zone.
[00:05:21] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:05:23] Liz: It Yeah. Sound. needed. I needed something.
[00:05:25] Aaron: Yeah. It sounds exhilarating.
[00:05:27] Michaela: Do you know Tim Easton?
[00:05:28] Liz: I don't know him, but I've seen him from afar.
[00:05:31] Michaela: he loves Alaska. Yeah. So he's, on my bucket list to have definitely make it to and play music. Cause I've heard it's a whole different experience. Yeah.
[00:05:42] Liz: just kind of show up with your guitar and hope for the best and make things up on the spot.
[00:05:48] Michaela: also just likewise, I feel like it's so weird that we haven't ever met because I've known of you and followed you and I feel like we even played in Seattle the same night when Anthony D'Amato was opening for you years ago. You were playing like
the big room at the triple door and I was playing like the small like front room.
[00:06:07] Liz: Oh
[00:06:07] Michaela: This was years ago. So anyways, it's weird. Maybe we briefly said hello, like in the green room. But,
anyways, happy to like get to sit and talk with you finally. And you have such an interesting story for a number of reasons. before we jump into kind of like the bigger, newsworthy things that have happened I was wondering if you could just give us a little insight of where you're at right now, being a new
mom,
With your creativity and your career work.
[00:06:34] Liz: Yeah I am in a creative and to put out a record phase. So it's this weird combination of I'm loving writing right now because I'm pulling from such a different place, being a new mom and having so many new things to inspire me. And then also I'm putting out a record in March, so I'm gearing up for a really big touring year next year.
getting all that lined up. So, Trying to wear all the hats
not knowing if I'm wearing any of them well, but that's where I'm at. My record is done. I'm excited to share new music. Finally. It's been a long time. I have a lot that I'm looking forward to.
[00:07:06] Aaron: Nice. Yeah. That's exciting.
[00:07:08] Michaela: And that you're still in a creative space of writing after like, exerting. I feel like it takes me a long time to get back into writing when I've recorded a record and also switching over to kind of like business prep mode.
[00:07:20] Liz: Oh, me too. It's something that I've struggled with forever, like over a decade my creativity definitely comes. And the older I get, the waves seem to come farther and farther apart.
but I just have been trying to stay on co writing, which helps me stay inspired.
[00:07:38] Michaela: Mm hmm.
[00:07:39] Liz: trying to balance it all with having a kid you can't just like whip out a guitar. At this point, the last song I wrote, while she was pregnant. in front of me, coloring and trying to put the caps back on the markers. And I was like, just hold on.
[00:07:51] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
How old is she right now?
[00:07:55] Liz: She's two.
[00:07:56] Michaela: Okay. Is she
talking yet?
[00:07:58] Liz: yeah, I always joke that her first full sentence was all done and she really put that to good use whenever would sing to her. And so it
[00:08:06] Michaela: Yep.
[00:08:06] Liz: like stunted me for a while. I'm like, she doesn't like to hear me sing. And I have this theory that I traumatized her by just like playing guitar all through my pregnancy.
And she's like, I don't want to hear this anymore. I'm over this.
[00:08:21] Michaela: This is a serious phenomenon that we talk about a lot When they get to like toddler age, like Georgia she loves to listen to my records. she will literally ask can I put on Mommy's songs? But if I sing
in person,
no.
[00:08:34] Liz: what is that about?
[00:08:36] Michaela: I don't know. She
literally the other night said, you know, my rule mom. No singing. So maybe they're like,
they come to earth to like really humble us. Not like there's a million other things in life to humble us, but
[00:08:52] Liz: Yes. They certainly set things straight.
[00:08:55] Michaela: yeah. how are you guys navigating? Is your partner a musician as well?
[00:09:00] Liz: in the music industry.
[00:09:02] Michaela: My husband too. hmm. Yeah. Mm Was
[00:09:09] Liz: we met and fell in love, he was more on management side, and he does music videos, and so he's extremely creative, but also organized.
It's a quite a combination. I lean on him all the time and I truly don't think this whole mom musician balance would be possible without him because he's such a rock for me. And we go on tour together often as a family. And can be a hot mess, but we just had to like, figure it out as we go.
like I just went to Alaska and I had to just let them, my husband and my daughter holding it down at home and just knowing that he's got that under control has allowed me to keep doing what I love and it's such a gift.
[00:09:48] Aaron: that your husband's first extended time as a solo parent? So he knows. I try to limit it That's nice. Mm
[00:09:57] Liz: absolute max, but the
[00:09:58] Aaron: hmm.
[00:09:58] Liz: is a half days.
But in August we did three and a half weeks on the road as a
[00:10:03] Michaela: Mm.
[00:10:04] Liz: based on the, tour, we decide what makes sense. Should you stay home?
Should you come with?
[00:10:08] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:10:09] Liz: he's great at it. I started touring two and a half months after she was born. I don't know what I was thinking. we've just been making it up since then.
[00:10:15] Aaron: Yeah. That sounds like similar timelines to us as well. I think Mikayla's sweet spot seems to be like 10 days on the road, like two weekends with it.
[00:10:23] Liz: you meant ten days after the baby was born. I was
[00:10:25] Aaron: Oh, yeah. No, no, No No way. Actually, you
did
go and record. I did a recording
[00:10:30] Michaela: session at 10 Days Old. with
[00:10:32] Aaron: close friends of ours.
Yeah. They were in town working on a record and Michaela was a guest. And they were very like, Are you okay to do this? it's okay. We can find another time. And she was like, no, please. I want to get out of the house. I was there with the kid and we were
all hanging out.
[00:10:44] Michaela: Yeah. It was also 2021. So it was after like the extended time of COVID of just not playing music. the text came in and I was like, Oh, that's something I used to do sing.
cause I
remember I posted about it on Instagram and someone commented like, wow, I really hope you didn't feel like you had to go back to work at 10 days.
And I was like well, first of all, I don't have paid parental leave.
So, um, Yeah. like I did get paid for this and it was helpful, but also it's so intertwined. It's like, yes, I need the work for financial survival, but also for my like soul fulfillment
And when you become a new parent and especially a new mother where you're, everything about you is different It was like such a beautiful thing to get to go to a recording studio realize that I could still hear harmony parts and sing.
And I was just like, thank you for also thinking to just ask me because a lot of people would have been like, she just had a baby. No way is she going to do this.
[00:11:44] Liz: It is so true that's how I felt too, is getting back to playing on the road just reconnected me to myself, I needed that and I still need that.
I dealt with a lot of postpartum depression and to get out of my own way and get out of my own head, just being back doing the thing that I love and makes me feel like myself really helped me get back to good.
[00:12:05] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:12:06] Aaron: a little bit of a pivot, do you and your husband work together as well?
[00:12:11] Liz: the time. Like he helps make all my posters and he does all my video work. And I tap into his creativity and his skills pretty often. Yeah. He's
[00:12:23] Michaela: Yeah, your
situation sounds very similar to ours.
[00:12:25] Liz: Yeah.
[00:12:26] Michaela: Cause Aaron's producer primarily and composer and does sync music and plays a million instruments. So he like produces my records and will play drums for me when I need it. And we work together.
we make this together, so we
work together in a lot of capacities and also very creative, but a Virgo and like super organized, in a way that I am not,
I'm very helpful and a rockstar dad. That's like. Yeah, you want to go tour for two weeks straight? Cool. Got it. I got it.
[00:12:57] Liz: Oh,
that's incredible.
[00:12:59] Aaron: That's why I was asking if it's, your husband's first rodeo long term
solo parenting. Cause it's like, talk about the wilderness. I joked that I want to make a discovery channel series on solo parenting. Whether it's, men or women, it's a lot.
it's full on survival.
[00:13:13] Liz: Yeah, talk about it. I felt so bad because when I was in Alaska, he dropped her off at school and she immediately started throwing up and so
[00:13:21] Aaron: No.
[00:13:22] Liz: I was gone, he was solo parenting a sick child, not getting any of his work done and also feeling terrible for her. And Bye,
[00:13:31] Michaela: Yeah. Uh.
[00:13:32] Liz: do anything to help
[00:13:34] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:13:36] Liz: the thing. He's just always like, yep, go do it. When I said, I have an Alaska opportunity, should I do it? He's like, absolutely, we'll figure it out,
[00:13:44] Aaron: absolutely. We'll figure out how I'm going to come with you because that sounds awesome. That's how the conversation would go over here.
[00:13:53] Michaela: Yeah, we had a, this summer I was in, I think it was just over a week. I was teaching out at Rocky grass, a song school folks fest, and then performing and like the first day that I was there.
Yeah, that's right. Georgia, our daughter, was supposed to go to camp and I had been like point person for registration and everything and Erin to drop her off and texted me like nobody's here
[00:14:16] Aaron: the camp is at her daycare, which is out of this woman's house and it's a beautiful spot and It was quiet and I'm like, okay, like walked right onto her back porch, looked around and like, our kid's like, I want to play on the swing set.
And I'm like, let's find somebody first. walked to the front door and like nobody was there.
[00:14:30] Michaela: The teacher wasn't answering her phone cause she wasn't. Working that day I checked my emails and I messed up the dates. It started the next day
and Aaron had
a session, an artist coming over that we had a babysitter
[00:14:42] Aaron: picking her up from camp that wasn't half the,
that didn't exist, but also couldn't be there.
All that couldn't come also
[00:14:49] Michaela: texted that she was sick. So the babysitter canceled started.
[00:14:52] Aaron: Yeah. She started the day by saying she'd been up all night with, food poisoning. So I was like. Okay, so I called the artist that I was supposed to be working with, I was like, Listen, we only have like a short day today.
We'll make it work. I got you, we'll do this other time. Come over the time I got to bring my kid to camp and I go and there's no camp and then I had to call the artist again and be like we, I can't do anything. Yeah.
[00:15:11] Michaela: And I was walking to like teach my first class and I'm like, Oh my God, this is all my fault.
And I feel so guilty. And I'm like texting every babysitter and friend. I finally got one of my really close friends. She was like, I have a session, but I'll come over after and play with her to give Aaron a few hours and. It was just like one of those times. And also she was having a tough time with me being away and like very tantrum y.
I remember we barely spoke the whole week and Aaron was like, I am not mad at you at all. I'm just in survival mode
and it would be better to just not talk about it. I'm just going to get through this.
It was like,
[00:15:47] Aaron: it was one of those things that If we FaceTimed Michaela, our kid would just lose it.
that's the good thing about having a parent that is like a public figure. Like we could watch her videos on YouTube. We could like listen to her music and it's cool and it's great. And it's there, you know,
[00:16:02] Liz: from those streams, you know
[00:16:03] Aaron: yeah, you know, We made her at least three cents that week. But yeah, it was like one of those things that like, I'm sorry, we can't talk I'm keeping the guardrails on As soon as we like open that door, it's just. But
[00:16:17] Michaela: you learn a lot of compartmentalizing abilities because I had to really consciously be like, I literally can't do anything about this.
and I have to not feel bad that even though my work is a choice. All of our work is a choice, but like, that it takes me away, but this is really beneficial to my family and to me, and I'm here, so I also don't want to be consumed with these negative, guilty feelings and still allow myself to really enjoy this time, because why else would I do this?
there's so much mental work that I think goes into Reconciling all of it when you bring children into the mix.
When you're work is also fulfilling
to you and a passion, And can be like considered selfish by some people, but it's also the way you make a living.
[00:17:06] Liz: Would you feel less guilty if you hated your job?
[00:17:09] Michaela: Right. Yeah.
[00:17:10] Liz: Yeah, one of the things I always think of is what they say on an airplane, which is put your mask on first,
[00:17:16] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:17:17] Liz: I was like deep in the postpartum depression. I was like, I have to take care of myself. I will take better care of my family.
I will provide more for my family. If do the self care of and the self care is often just like, Going on the road. I know that
[00:17:31] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:17:36] Liz: I have to think clearly and do something that really fills my tank.
one of the things in coming to talk to you guys today, when you're asking about like, how do you stay balanced? all I could think was, am I staying don't know if I am. I mean, That's the goal, but it seems like it happens in little pockets,
[00:17:52] Aaron: absolutely. I've been thinking about that a lot lately Michaela is seven and a half months pregnant now with our second and having a
toddler. So like my days are basically like, I'm at work or I'm like, okay, how do I. Care for my family what does Michaela need? What does our toddler need like back and forth?
So if I get a minute to myself, I'm like, what do I
do? What about now?
[00:18:12] Aaron: Where's my to do list, so I totally hear about like going on tours being self care it's just exercising your autonomy and
like freedom of choice the ability to go somewhere for an hour and not be too busy
Yeah. It's
Yeah. It's
[00:18:29] Michaela: like,
wow.
[00:18:31] Aaron: I really took that for granted before getting to just wake up on my own accord. Wow. Okay.
[00:18:36] Michaela: Yeah. So one of the things I really wanted to talk to you about is also your path to being a a fully independent artist, if I'm correct, you own all of your work and you self release, is that correct?
[00:18:49] Liz: Yes.
[00:18:50] Michaela: And you had a very like publicized story of I don't know if this is up to date, but the internet told me that you were one of the, fourth most funded women in Kickstarter's history that you raised over 150, 000 to buy the rights to your record back to get out of a contract.
Do you
mind
and feel comfortable sharing a little bit about that story? super curious about like the events and then also what that did to you. Emotionally and mentally and if there was any like recovery process and getting back
to yourself
through that process
[00:19:24] Liz: Yeah the events were that I was signed to a label when I moved to Nashville and put out two records with them. And then when to make my third record, I was really excited about it, really proud of it. I made that with Paul Moak at the Smokestack studio in Berry Hill.
we invited the label folks over to come listen to it and everything was hunky dory. and then I got an email or something that, they weren't going to release the record. And that started this whole thing of like, the record's done. Like Anyway, they said I could buy it back from them, which I actually, that's really nice.
That doesn't happen all the time. But then again, I didn't have the money to buy it back, so I was in this really tough spot of deciding like, am I just going to let this album go? Or am I going to try to raise the funds To buy it back. And that was emotionally very difficult. I felt abandoned by my team there, especially since the person who had just become the head of the label was my lawyer for seven years.
He got me the record deal. So it was this like real big, really just tricked,
[00:20:23] Michaela: Did they give you a reason why they wouldn't
[00:20:26] Liz: nope, nothing. And this has happened to other people. At that label many times. I think I was like one of the first in that wave. Anyway, my, husband, my then boyfriend was extremely encouraging and was like you have to raise a Kickstarter.
And I felt a little bit embarrassed to do that because the whole way I got the record label is because I launched a Kickstarter when I moved to Nashville. And that's how I funded my first Nashville record. So I'm like, I'm doing this again. And I'm going back to the drawing board and What happened was absolutely incredible.
I will never get over it. But 1302 people backed the record and raised 150, 000. It was the fourth most funded solo female musician project on Kickstarter at the time. I'm not sure the stats currently either, but that was 2019.
[00:21:11] Michaela: hmm in 2020. I felt emboldened by the.
[00:21:18] Liz: Support of my fan base for sure and it honestly it did something really powerful. It connected us in a way I have now a community of people that everything I create, I share with them and we are this team. And so it united us in a way that I never expected for now many years since that all happened.
And I've been creating records independently ever since. I've done three EPs since then and now the new record I'm putting out was funded independently. So it's actually been the most beautiful part of my journey unexpectedly.
[00:21:52] Michaela: That's incredible
[00:21:54] Aaron: Adversity breeds creativity
or something like
that
that feeling that you said about, you know having Run a successful kickstarter and then being faced with that again and then just like why am
I here?
[00:22:06] Liz: Yeah.
[00:22:07] Aaron: Do I have to do this again? That's such a real
thing. I hear that from like a lot of people. feeling like you're moving backwards and having to self, fundraise basically, or having to like really question yourself value and be like, Am I worth, like asking my
fans for more money again,
how did you work past that? Was it just a necessity thing or was there something that
Changed your mentality?
[00:22:27] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:22:29] Liz: but yeah. I felt. You know,
I was like, how long have I been at this? And just a lot of self doubt.
[00:22:35] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:22:36] Liz: it was just, my husband just kept showing up and going, Nope, you're worth it. You can do it. are going to love to be part of this story with you. They're going to love
[00:22:43] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:22:44] Liz: out of this. And he was right. And even now, I feel like I'm not worthy of all that kind of support, but at the end of the day, that connection that I have with those people who showed up for me they call themselves lizards and we made them a shirt that's like 1302 crew and it's this incredible community they're my people and so I
[00:23:02] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:23:03] Liz: be indebted to them.
[00:23:04] Michaela: I love that. especially in this time in life, I just got out of my record deal and just put out my first song last week for the first time in 10 years by
myself.
my, I have, I have Thank you. But it was like, I've had small indie deals for 10 years. and I just had like a morality shift in the last year of we made a new record that's going to come out next year.
And it was like, I couldn't write for two years after having a baby and my mom had a stroke when I had a baby. And so I fought so hard to be able to write the songs. And then we recorded it here in our recording studio that Aaron built this studio with his dad. while I was pregnant and my mom was in the hospital and he produced it and played a million instruments and it all felt, I just kept being like, wait, and then like, A company's gonna own it?
And I just kind of had this shift and I've had my own process about how to like feel comfortable with that. So I am very excited by people's stories who are like, no, the industry doesn't dictate my worth as an artist. It also doesn't dictate my financial value as an
artist
because we can often think they're the ones that determine if we're good investments or not, and understanding like, they really don't know.
And,
So I've often thought about how I think I've put people on a pedestal of they're the ones that Give us the stamp of approval and like, put us in the, scene. And if you don't have those stamps of approval, there's some like cloak of shame and now I've been feeling like, no, this is so awesome.
There's so many incredible artists who are like, fuck this stuff.
the business has changed so much that it's harder and harder to like make a dollar. So. Owning as much as possible and doing as much as you can and really going and building your community, even with a very small fan base is very possible to, like,
have that
nurtured support.
Can you talk a little bit about, not just making the decision to share the story, but if you had any apprehension about industry backlash of publicizing the fact that the label did this, and also any like, struggle with the rejection from the label.
[00:25:17] Liz: it was a tight rope. I had to walk with talking about it and not throwing anybody under the bus. And tried to do that. as time has gone on and like people have figured out what the label was and all this stuff. And,
[00:25:30] Michaela: hmm. Mm hmm.
[00:25:32] Liz: I always thought of those people as the ones with the power. And then once I got my record back, I was like, wait a minute. You guys don't have anything if we're not creating something. So actually the power is all. the artist, like we have the thing you want and I never realized that, but I'm like, oh no, no, no.
I have the thing you want, even though I got dropped. Um, I still was like, you guys don't have a business without creatives. And so that made me feel like, okay, I got this. But industry wise, yeah, it does worry me. Like I'm not chasing down any record deals and nobody's knocking at my door. But it does worry me if that like put a little bit a flag on my name.
Like, well, Don't work with her. Cause she'll blast it out to the world. So the effects of that remain to be seen if I ever work with another
[00:26:23] Aaron: Mm
[00:26:23] Michaela: hmm.
[00:26:23] Aaron: my take on that is you're exactly right. Like we, as the creators are the ones with the power everything else is built on the songs that you write and songs that
you write. Like
without those songs, there's, no backbone, there's no roots, there's
nothing to Build this whole entire industry around.
I get the fear of Oh, maybe I shouldn't rock the boat too much just to keep my options open for the future. But like, you have such a strong community now that's bonded and all of that, and that's really powerful. And if you have a community, it's really evident in like having like a viral video or something like
that.
If you have the numbers, everything else doesn't matter. If you
have a community,
have people there, it's like you could say whatever you want. A label's going to be like, can we have a part of that?
You know, it's all just, numbers,
[00:27:08] Michaela: I think the challenge that I've come up against with that is like yes, the creators have the power, but at the same time, they still treat us like we're disposable if we don't have the numbers in this exact moment.
well, I can believe in my work, but if I don't have millions and millions of streams on Spotify or on TikTok then they tell me that I don't have value and they can discard me. And There's a ton of other people waiting in line that are willing to go be in that and then that makes me Question my own worth
[00:27:41] Aaron: but the unspoken thing in all this to me that I've realized is like they don't have the numbers
And that's why they need to sign people to have numbers.
If they had their own Numbers, it wouldn't matter.
[00:27:50] Liz: They don't have the songs, they don't So yeah, none of that.
[00:27:53] Michaela: I've been now in this business 15 years, like starting out in music school and working at a record label and then Out on my own and doing my own music and you just see people get cycled through
that record didn't work Okay on to the next thing that we're hoping that we can hitch our wagon to oh that didn't work Okay on to the next thing that seems like it's gaining traction We're gonna put our money in them not in this artist that we've been telling for years that we work with them for life and we love them and all that the manipulation that happens in business dealings
[00:28:25] Liz: Yeah.
[00:28:27] Aaron: I think the curtain starting to really just become transparent in that like a Successful record a successful song is going to be successful, or go viral to use modern terms or whatever Regardless of who's behind it a song speaks to people, of course, having a label behind it with their budgets that they can spend can help it get to bigger people. But like, in my observation, this started back in, the late nineties, early two thousands, when you see all of these, rappers and hip hop artists that all of a sudden get their own imprint on a major label, and it's a way this major label can like, Give them autonomy, but still get some of that pie because that Jay Z record is actually paying for like these other 10 indie rock bands that aren't
making any money or 30 indie rock bands.
Who knows?
You know, like the joke, when you started working at that label. Michael worked at a subsidiary of Warner and I remember when you started the joke was that you were getting paid by Green Day. Yeah. Even though Green Day wasn't on your, wasn't on your actual imprint.
[00:29:23] Michaela: Or that like Norah Jones being on Blue Note was like funding a lot of lesser known jazz records a positive twist, how wonderful that is that these, pieces of work that, people regarded as really important and they were able to be put out into the world because thankfully, Laura Jones's career blew up.
[00:29:42] Liz: mm hmm, mm
[00:29:42] Michaela: so it's like when you then remove yourself from that system and you have only yourself to rely on, Can you talk a little bit about shifting over into like, handling all of the financial funding yourself as well and like, what that has felt like handling okay, how do I fund this record without, like, you know, telling us about your spreadsheets.
I do have a ton of spreadsheets. My whole career is on a Google Excel document I'm my own manager, my own label, So I have to be organized with all that stuff. the Kickstarter money went toward buying that album back, and then with that I made a Christmas EP, and an acoustic EP of songs from that funded record, which is called Funeral for My Past.
[00:30:28] Liz: And then from there I was like, Okay, now what am I going to do moving forward? all this happened like right before COVID and then in 2020, I launched a Patreon to let people in on the behind the scenes of the making of my Christmas record. And that kind of strengthened my community of people that were behind the Kickstarter because then we all had a place to hang out and watch the next creative thing unfold.
And that helped me to keep things afloat financially in my career and since then that community has helped fund my next record that's coming out in March. So I didn't have to do a Kickstarter. all of these songs were sponsored So Privately by people on Patreon who decided that a certain song connected with them they covered the recording, mixing and mastering of a track and
[00:31:15] Michaela: Whoa
[00:31:15] Liz: return of that.
But it's basically like a private that I didn't announce to anyone, but my little community.
[00:31:23] Aaron: Yeah, I love that
amazing
[00:31:25] Michaela: incredible
[00:31:25] Liz: creative. I'm like, how am I going to make another record? after I became a mom, I wasn't on the road for a good chunk of time.
And that's how I, pay the bills. So I was like, okay, what's the next thing here? And luckily had another round of people that were like, I want to be part of it. So it's an honor to get to create things with people that care about these songs.
[00:31:45] Aaron: and a really great approach to that
We talked about like keeping things in your circle of influence on this show because 90 percent of this industry is completely outside of your control, whether it's booking a show or Releasing a record or getting somebody to write about your record or whatever it is So just turning to your community That's already there and then create even like a smaller community out of that.
This is a really cool idea
[00:32:09] Michaela: talk about creativity.
It's like another extension of your creative work of finding, okay, I'm using my creativity to make these songs and record, and now I also get to use my creativity to think of ways to engage people and that's like an aspect that I think we can underestimate I'm really inspired by people like Joe Pug is a good friend And he has so many cool things that he's coming up with podcast for one that's been on for years, but also like he has a Sunday night club.
he does all these different things to really nurture his connection with his fans and also his business have gotten to tour with him a little bit and, um, get to see in person, like that connection with fans he's different than I am in the sense that I share a lot of my personal story.
Joe's approach is not that it's like very just music So it's just so fun to me to see Everyone's different approach and see like the different things that people come up with to connect Through music as well as sharing themselves and their process and the business and all that stuff with fans Yeah
[00:33:23] Liz: the reason why my Kickstarter worked was because of the years of having a more nurturing relationship with my audience and I will stand at the table after the show until the venue closed down if there's anybody else that wants to chat.
Like That is such a life giving in the touring world. And those connections that I've built in the past. In those moments led to something like the Kickstarter being able to happen. So it's just like you're saying, thinking of ways to nurture, that audience. And my next thing that I want to do to create another opportunity to connect that way is I want to do one of those fan cruises, which sound really fun.
I've seen a lot of people doing those now. on a small scale, not like the big cruises, but just A chance to be together. Cause one of the things that I did with my Kickstarter was it was right before COVID some of the people came into Nashville and we all hung out in the studio where I made the record, talked about the record, had drinks, and a lot of people were meeting each other for the first time.
And that's also what strengthened their relationship as they're like chatting online about music. And it's like, how do we all get together in a way that makes sense? So that's the next thing that's on my, list of things to do.
[00:34:29] Michaela: That's cool. There's a band, of Chatham Rabbits out of North Carolina?
I think they're like a bluegrass y they like live on a farm and they host a sleepover for all of their patron fans, like a camp out basically.
And they seem like they have a lot of things like that of like really building the relationship with their super fans. not every. Artist is comfortable with that. some
artists are like, Oh no, I need to keep boundaries and, feel safer. so yeah, it's,
all like each of us coming to what feels safe and comfortable for ourselves.
Some people hate going out to the merge table. I also love it. again, we all have very different personalities of how we approach This career and like finding what works knowing that there's not one correct way
[00:35:17] Liz: comfortable talking to people one on one after the show, but I'm not super comfortable expressing myself on social media. Like, That is just an absolute blind spot for me. I cannot do it. could vomit my whole life story on stage and feel like, not worrying about what anyone's thinking about me, but on the internet, it's a whole different story, and I am like, My heart is blocked. I don't want anyone to know anything about me. But, behind the Patreon wall again, I feel very safe. And face to face with music lovers, I feel safe. But yeah, it's all about finding what works for you, I guess.
[00:35:48] Aaron: all the different plates you have spinning all the different approaches all the different ways to build community to grow and progress your career in the back of my mind is like this all takes a lot of time You can you talk on how you manage all of this?
On top of actually writing the songs that you need to make new EPs and new records and then being a parent do you have a specific structure to it or is it kind of triage?
[00:36:12] Liz: I don't have a structure to it. I wouldn't be able to do this if my daughter didn't go to daycare, that's for sure. And then I get a lot done during nap time during the weekends. it definitely puts a new focus on time management. she gets off to school.
I go to the gym I get home and I just I'm on my computer pretty much unless I have a right that day I'm on my computer like all day. it's not super conducive to creativity, but figuring out ways like I pack merch at night after she goes to bed, we're chillin.
We'll have a drink and I'll just start putting packages together. So I'm basically always multitasking
[00:36:44] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:36:45] Liz: Writing songs in front of my daughter, etc.
[00:36:47] Michaela: Yeah. We had Joe Henry on this.
He's
produced like, Bonnie Raitt and
tons of people, but also like very enmeshed in the Americana world.
[00:36:57] Aaron: and he's a great songwriter himself and releases his own record.
[00:37:01] Michaela: Yeah. his kids are older now, he had two kids and he talked about, you know, in the early days his wife had an office job or something and so he was like the primary caregiver at home a lot of the time he talked about like approaching it that had to like go out and be away to write, to go into the garage when the kid was napping and would take the monitor and, you know, And I think he said, didn't he say, Michelle?
Negoncello was like, don't do that. that she was like, let your kids see you creating. And he was talking about that of like, okay, that shift of if you can manage it concentration wise, and if your child doesn't yell at you to, stop, like letting your, children, more in on the process I think that's cool.
Georgia will come out here while Aaron's working on stuff and she'll, obviously it's very distracting at the same time. So it's difficult. You're always like, how can I really do quality work? But, the other night we were at this house party thing and, someone was perfor it was actually Jewel's dad, Jewel, if you saw her, her dad was
[00:38:03] Aaron: Talk about Alaska, he's also from Alaska.
Oh yeah,
[00:38:05] Michaela: he was visiting from Alaska and he was playing us songs and telling stories and he asked how many of you in this room are musicians? I assume a lot of you and I was sitting on the couch and my daughter was sitting next to me and like I raised my Hand and I looked down and my little three year old daughter's like
I'm a musician And I thought that was so cute and she also very confidently says like I'm an artist no inhibition, but it was the first time I saw her Respond to I'm a musician and I was like, that's just such a beautiful thing because it all feels at her disposal right now.
She's like, of course I'm a musician. I, pick up instruments and sing all the time. Like, she's not even walking through that logic, but, it was a cool moment to see like oh, she's just absorbing all of this and I did not grow up that way. I grew up in a military community so I'm like what a cool way to grow up.
I'm like trying to hold on to those moments on the days you know, when you can feel like this isn't working, what are
we doing?
[00:39:05] Liz: Yeah, absolutely. That's like when we're touring, I'm like, what are we doing? Like, This must be so much for her to take in. I'm like, you know what? We are exposing her to different people, different places, different experiences. And she is now just so go with the flow because that's all she knows right now.
So you you gotta look at it from what they're getting out of it. But that's a new thing for me writing in front of her because I had to write this song for Alaska. We had a prompt the prompt was dare to struggle, dare to win. And so as I'm writing this song about the beauty and the strength of struggling, that's when she was in front of me, couldn't get marker cap back on her marker.
And I was like, Girl, listen to this song. You gotta struggle. Like, It's good to struggle. And so now I almost involved her in that song. It was my first time really writing in front of her. So, I created a moment where it's like a call and response so that she can have her little moment. And then, when I wasn't playing the chorus that she's a part of, she was like no, no, no.
Struggle song, mommy. Struggle song. I'm like, well, this is the verse to the struggle song. I gotta write it. You know? But yeah. It's such a beautiful thing when you think about what we get to be. Creative and involve our kids in it and who knows what that will inspire in them
[00:40:14] Michaela: we can be accused of like making this a parenting artist podcast sometimes, but I often feel like we had a lot of fear. And I especially had a lot of fear of how becoming parents and building a family would conflict with our lifestyle. our artistry. every time I think I'm just beating a dead horse by talking about it too much.
I hear somebody else say it's not possible. I don't know if I want to be a parent because I just like to paint all day or I just like to write poems all day. And I feel like the importance of having these conversations is trying to start putting more information out there of like, yes, it changes your time and you have to learn how to use your time differently, also.
It can magnify and expand your creativity in
a whole way that you never could imagine.
[00:41:06] Liz: Like when you say somebody likes to paint all day, it's not me, but immediately thought you're going to paint with new colors. Like
[00:41:12] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:41:13] Liz: in a totally different way. And for me, like I built my career on writing songs about. My failed love life. So when I fell in love with my husband and we found out we were expecting our little girl I was like, what am I gonna write about?
Because My heart isn't broken anymore, but this next record that I'm putting out is just it's so zoomed out It's talking about so much bigger things than myself because I think about the world in a different way I see the world in a different way it's a beautiful thing if you feel called to have kids it
[00:41:38] Michaela: Totally.
[00:41:39] Aaron: Yeah, in my experience, to kind of piggyback on what Mikayla was saying about, We can definitely be accused of this kind of being a partial parenting show, but like, talking about creativity and specifically building a career that's based on your creativity. my experience, it like becoming apparently, contextualized my creativity where before like, I was just living in my creativity all the time.
And it was like this kind of like amorphous blob around me that I couldn't really see the edges of. And it was just, it was everything. And it was
inherently like a little more. Dull, if that makes sense,
because it was just like,
time, everywhere. For sure, and so like, putting that frame around is like, here is my creativity I guess I need to be more mindful of nurturing my creativity, where to find know, how to take care of it.
Yeah, just put it in a broader, context,
[00:42:22] Liz: I feel that way similarly in terms of just my career, because from the time I started writing songs, I knew it was what I wanted to do, it's been my whole world, it's my whole life. Besides rollerblading for a couple of years, I don't have like hobbies outside of music.
I
[00:42:37] Michaela: Mm hmm.
[00:42:38] Liz: do for fun that aren't music. So having my daughter who finds joy in the most random things has really allowed me to pause in a different way and find joy in a whole different way. So
[00:42:49] Michaela: Mm
[00:42:50] Liz: you're saying with your creativity and that I feel that way about just my career I can put it aside and just Dance in the living room
[00:42:57] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:42:58] Liz: and live a little bit, and I've heard you talk about this Makayla on the podcast about like those times about where you're taking things in that you're later gonna write about
[00:43:07] Michaela: Mm
[00:43:08] Liz: moments that can seep into my creativity because actually living,
[00:43:12] Michaela: and yeah, whether you have children or not the older you get, the more um, responsibilities you have, the more life that happens, other things come in. So it's like your relationship to your creativity, I think shifts no matter what, because for a lot of us, we start, writing songs as kids.
And then it's like, if we decide that this is the career path we want, we become all consumed with it in our 20s. And honestly like, I'll go out on the limb and say, I really hope for people that it does change because it expands to allow other things in your life, that then you have to like, have a lot of grace and understanding of just because I'm not, I'm not wanting to write every single day or don't have the ability to write every single day because these other things are pulling me, like taking care of my home or taking care of a family member or whatever it is, not even considering children.
It like helps to be trusting of that this is shifting. It doesn't mean that it's worse or that It's just different and we could even say that maybe the harvest is better when you're not trying to pull every single day. these conversations often reinforce that.
I feel like Lori McKenna talked to us about that, about like when she started writing on Zoom. She was like, I noticed I was writing all the time because I wasn't flying to Nashville only to write. And she was like, and I felt myself be like, Oh, I actually like when I'm have little more space in between or BJ Barham.
when he was younger, he would just Wait for it all the time. And now he like can feel when he has to like go out with a pale or something and he like designates like a week to go. Right. so it's like, that changing relationship to our creativity that comes with age I personally think can create more quality because there's more depth in it.
[00:45:00] Liz: Absolutely. I have absolutely experienced that. You know, And you just keep hoping you can find those little moments and think it's really important to remember again and again, this is something creatives talk about all the time, but it's not gonna be full force. to write all the time.
Like it's okay to take a
[00:45:18] Michaela: Mm-Hmm. .
[00:45:18] Liz: I went to school where we talked about it's a muscle. You have to write every day. And I just have never worked like that. Like my muscle, I don't know, I guess I just need to relax it sometimes. I need to
[00:45:30] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:45:30] Liz: out.
[00:45:32] Aaron: Yeah. we both went to music school and so I, heard the same thing and something
I've come to realize as I've gotten older is I just think, oh, it's a muscle. You need to work it out all the time. And it's like, I like to run, I like to go to the gym and all of that.
And what I've realized is like, yes. Okay. Like being fit feels great. But what I feel is like I'm embodied and I understand my muscle. So I've
taking that sentence as understand your muscle. It's a muscle that
you need to understand. so understand
when it's tired and you're about to like have an
injury that's going to sideline you for six months and understand like
when your muscles like I want to be used, like I need some activity and follow that.
[00:46:08] Liz: Oh, that's such a good point. I had a period where I was writing like two times a day. I was just in it. And I reached a wall. I was like, I I don't want to do this right now. I just, I was empty. I felt absolutely empty. And I needed to just cancel everything.
And. okay with that. And ultimately that space allowed me to write my next record after I had this high intake level and then I was like, okay, pause. So just ebbs and flows.
[00:46:35] Aaron: Exactly.
[00:46:36] Michaela: Yeah. Beautiful. That feels like a really nice, place to Put a bow on it. We say
that a lot on this podcast.
[00:46:45] Aaron: Well, just these conversations come to a spot. That's like it, the circle
feels completed
[00:46:49] Michaela: obviously we listened to the podcast because.
We have to, and I'm like, Oh God, I've heard myself tell that story like every week happens.
Thankfully, that's why we have guests and it's not just us talking.
[00:47:03] Aaron: Yeah. So thank you for taking the time grace us with all your experiences and what you've learned tools and all of that.
[00:47:10] Liz: for having me and for creating this podcast,
[00:47:12] Aaron: Oh, thank you.
[00:47:13] Liz: like me, this feels like a home in my ears. When I'm like, you can feel very isolated and alone in this career sometimes and to know that other people are going through it. And I've gleaned so many great little nuggets of advice from your podcast.
So thank you for your work and for nurturing the artist community around you. I think you probably do that more than you can even know.
[00:47:31] Michaela: Oh, man. Thank you. That means
[00:47:33] Aaron: a lot. Thank you so much.
[00:47:34] Michaela: so much.
being our
[00:47:36] Liz: meet you guys.
[00:47:37] Aaron: Yeah. you too. All
right.
[00:47:39] Liz: Bye.