Lola Kirke is an actress/musician who was in Mozart in the Jungle, Winning time and others, and who's latest record "Woman for Sale" is out on Third Man Records. We talk about staying sane while juggling 2 different creative careers, how art is about giving not receiving, and what is counterculture.
Lola Kirke is an actress/musician who was in Mozart in the Jungle, Winning time and others, and who's latest record "Woman for Sale" is out on Third Man Records. We talk about staying sane while juggling 2 different creative careers, how art is about giving not receiving, and what is counterculture.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Aaron: Hi, and welcome to the other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss, and
[00:00:04] Michaela: I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And since this is a brand new podcast, I'm guessing you are new to us. So thank you for being
[00:00:11] Aaron: here.
We like to think of this show as the anti album cycle podcast. So what that means is that our guests aren't gonna come on and talk about their latest record or their latest tour we called it the other 22 hours, cuz we wanted to focus on the times that we as musicians are not on stage.
The times are outside of the public eye and maybe the times are a little bit less shiny than what you see on social.
[00:00:30] Michaela: Between the two of us Aaron and I have almost 25 years of touring. I've spent the better part of the last decade putting out records on my own as well as with labels touring the world and building an independent career.
[00:00:43] Aaron: And I started making records in high school with friends and spent years touring with a bunch of different bands. And now I produce records and write music for tv. through all of this, McKayla and I have learned there's no one right way to create a career around your passion.
[00:00:55] Michaela: And in an industry where so much feels out of our control and up to luck being in the right place at the right time, we wanted to focus on what is within our
[00:01:03] Aaron: control. So with that in mind, we invited some of our friends to have a conversation about the other times they're outside of the public eye, and ask 'em the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so you can sustain your creativity?
And today's guest takes that a step further because not only is she a musician, but she's also an actress. So she's confronting this twofold
[00:01:21] Michaela: Lola Kirk. She has been on TV shows, one of my parents' favorite shows Mozart in the Jungle, as well as movies. And now she's been putting out records of her own original material.
Her latest record on Third Man Records called Lady for Sale.
[00:01:36] Aaron: And so we had a really free flowing conversation and touching on a lot of things from comparing despair to how artistry is more about giving than receiving and the longevity of art that we create and put out into the world.
[00:01:48] Michaela: And without further ado, let's hear our conversation with the charming Lola Kirk.
[00:01:53] Lola: Hi guys.
[00:01:54] Aaron: Hey.
[00:01:54] Michaela: Hi. Thank you for being here.
[00:01:57] Lola: It's an absolute honor and a pleasure.
[00:02:00] Michaela: so we had this idea of this podcast because we have these conversations with friends all the time about how do we survive. Forever in these careers that we've chosen. And as we were talking about who we'd want to have on, we thought of you very early on because not only are you so open on your social media, in person in interviews about really the truth, about the struggles of all of it.
But also have such a positive attitude that I feel like is really important for connecting and inviting others to feel. Okay. With not always like feeling perfect and great, but also you have the twofold aspect that you're managing a music career and an acting career. it's like double whammy and wondering.
this is like a too massive of a question I think to start off with. So Erin can help guide me, but does having two of those careers, how does it overlap and how does it really differ in the ways that you find you have to manage yourself and your approach to each career in staying centered in the actual.
And work of it rather than the career of it.
[00:03:09] Lola: that is a really big question and I think one that I struggle to answer for myself all the time especially now that so much of the kind of promotional. Aspect of work falls on the artist and not the companies that you know, used to promote. I didn't have an Instagram, a public Instagram until I started touring.
Actually I did like my first couple of tours, which was our first show together with no Instagram and like no one came. So that's what you get.
[00:03:37] Michaela: I always laugh about this because that show this will just be a little small tangent, but
that show
[00:03:42] Lola:
you were amazing. You blew
me away with that Grand Parsons covered. I think you.
did Las Vegas
[00:03:48] Michaela: Uh, luxury liner,
good luxury.
[00:03:50] Lola: blew my
mind.
[00:03:51] Michaela: Well thank you. But you and Windham had asked us to play this show at like this DIY space, and this was years ago. And I remember I was like in a really bad mood that night and I like didn't wanna play and I showed up and was like, Ugh. And the time started and like nobody was there
besides
us.
[00:04:11] Lola: a person. Not a single. I don't even know how we booked that
[00:04:15] Michaela: my bass player's girlfriend was,
[00:04:17] Lola: That's nice.
Tell her thank you.
[00:04:19] Michaela: yeah, I remember you. And what was your, is it Lila?
Lila.
I remember you guys were like, did you post about it? Did you invite anybody? And I was like, no. Did you? And you were like, I was like, aren't you famous? And you were like you, you were like, I don't even have an Instagram.
I was like, cool. We did a great job with
[00:04:39] Lola Kirke host video pt1: this.
[00:04:40] Lola: There you go. There in lies, the truth of about Instagram, it's a necessary evil, I suppose at this point. But I, so I didn't have one during that tour. I didn't have one till later. I think maybe at the end of that tour I made my official Instagram account and I always thought it would be a hindrance to my work as an actress because people would see how stupid and annoying I really am and not want to cast me to play, you know, a bond girl, not, you know.
If anyone wants me to do that though, I would do. And I was just talking to my manager the other day and she was like, no, it matters for an actress Now, like an actress needs to have a robust Instagram, and which I can only imagine is for the same reason that it's free promo. And that's such a fucking bummer.
so that's now an overlap. That's unfortunate to me, and I think just has to do with the kind of decay of expertise on the kind of behind the scenes side as well as upfront. another overlap I see, and this is my pessimistic side, is that I don't think people really understand what acting is anymore, especially with the kind of, I mean, I think they made 367 scripted TV shows last year, and I was reading about the woman who Runs Netflix and their concept was, I think what a lot of major labels do, which is just throw it at the wall and see which one sticks.
Instead of, we're gonna curate what we put out there and make sure it sticks because we believe in what we're making. And I think that because there's so many shows, a lot of people see. Actors on screen and they're like, I could do that. I'm funny. My boyfriend laughs at my jokes, or my mom thinks I'm pretty, or whatever it is.
And then they become actors and it's like, wait a minute. There was like a whole thing before these kind of run of the mill TV shows where people are really not doing very extraordinary things at all and there's no understanding of that. I think there's a lack of exposure for a lot of people making music And acting now. Like they don't know things. People don't know music. They don't know movies. And I'm like why do you want to do it? And it's like me, because me,
duh. that is the craziest crisis to me. And it, it is like, can't be making art at this point.
You can't be creative without. Aware of the legacy and the tradition that you are a part of, because that's such an insult to everybody who came before you. There were really amazing people making things to just know this much is uh, this, I did a hand, I was a very small hands,
[00:07:04] Michaela: For anybody
who are, who's not watching on YouTube. Yeah. But yeah, the, craft, I haven't even thought about that in the acting world, but I would imagine, cause I think about it in the music world of, we both went to music school and we spent our lives like studying music. But that doesn't mean anything for how well you do in building a music career.
[00:07:22] Lola: No, I mean I think now I see it cuz my partner is on the industry side and what people are interested. If I hadn't done like a kind of exorcism of the soul, it would crush me because it's so sad. What people want. And, part of me is just like, it's all over. Culture's dead.
Enjoy it while you can. Life is short. And then another part of me wants to feel more excited about the potential. But I don't know. I think that there's no more counterculture in art because everything is so okay now. And that's a real bummer as well. I feel like counterculture unfortunately, has just moved to the far right.
Instead of it being something beautiful that could come out of the far left because we've just in involved progressiveness so much into our kind of culture that there's no way for people to, rebel. There's no more rebellion except to just like, be a fucking horrible and do some awful things.
Like where's the positive rebellion gonna come?
[00:08:21] Michaela: but also I wonder how does counterculture develop when a lot of creatives, because. We, they feel the pressure to promote throughout. How can counterculture and ideas really develop when we're so busy documenting and sharing like
every experience?
[00:08:40] Lola: Cuz counterculture kind of needed to like fester. In the, in the basement of like, right. yeah. That's a really interesting question. There was one hardening article I read about these teenagers in Brooklyn. Of course, they were in like Brooklyn Heights. I knew every school that they went to. I could tell they, I, was like, that's a pack of kid.
That's a St. Anne's kid, whatever. They all lived in like Cabin Plaza area and they are rebelling against phones. I dunno if you guys saw this.
It was in the they were amazing. They're like whittling sticks and talking about like James Joyce and like they have flip phones and that might be it.
I mean, I want to join them, but I feel I'm too old.
[00:09:19] Aaron: pray you're like, oh,
I, this is my original. I had this Yeah I, I still had it in a drawer and I
broke it up my
[00:09:25] Lola Kirke host video pt1: original flip phone. Yeah.
[00:09:26] Lola: Exactly. Guys, I'm vintage. So Yeah. maybe they're, maybe those kids whittling sticks are the new counterculture. but yeah, I, I don't know as far as staying grounded amongst it all, I had such a rough year after putting out my last record that was just like I got so obsessed with It's reception and as a result, extremely self-involved.
Like I've never thought about myself so much. It was extremely boring and painful. And I was really unable to kind of appreciate all of the goodness that came with it because I wanted other things. And that's, a state of mind that I can get into. Lots of things, not just career, but anything.
I can be an ungrateful bitch. But I also think that it was really tough to put something out, see how much of the kind of promotion fell on me, and then see how like, futile my promotional efforts could even be with even like a large-ish following, I guess it's all relative, but um, that was annoying.
And I just felt so dangerously into compare and despair with so many other artists who I really liked. And it took a long time it was like a fever that broke and I've had a lovely, it's the 24th of January. It was weird. It was like New Year's Day, a lovely 24 days of just like not feeling that way anymore and feeling.
I don't know. It's like I had to go through this period of just like envy and low self-esteem to really appreciate myself and appreciate other people and feel like, you know, I'm in the right place instead of like, something's wrong with me or with everyone else.
[00:11:10] Aaron: is that something that you feel uniquely towards your music, or was that like a familiar feeling that you felt. from your acting as well, like has there been a show or a film that's come out where you felt the same way from his response? Or is it more because, I'm obviously not an actor, but like, putting out a record is such a singular thing,
are you shielded it from it in a show because you're part of an ensemble in.
[00:11:31] Lola: Yeah, I think I was pretty naive when I started working as an actress. and I was really lucky too. I was really successful, really young, and I I just got things and that was amazing. And also It's like a spoiled child in a lot of ways.
If they just get things and they stop getting things, they're gonna be like, what the fuck? And it's not like I was like the biggest star in.
the whole world, but it was pretty nice and I could just do whatever I wanted and I would, I didn't really struggle that much and. Then, I mean like a lot of people in creative fields and life, when 2020 happened, it was like all these things that were like promised to me are gonna happen.
They were sure things disappeared and the game just completely changed. So I guess that is to say I, think I felt really confident as an actress and I was younger. I also, when I was younger, I don't think I would've gone online and like promoted something in the same way.
Because I, I don't know, like I remember being told to lose weight all the time and being like, no. Like, why would I do that? Like, Not even like hurt by it. I mean, it would, like, I would cry maybe a little bit, but I'd just be like, I think I look great. why would I do. Or having like really hairy armpits or really hairy legs and being like, you are a bore, if you think that's a problem.
And looking back, I'm like, maybe I should have fucking shaved my armpits because or, or like put shoes on. Like I would've like maybe gotten a little bit more, but then also I wouldn't be who I am. So that's always the, conflict I think. Like, Do you compromise and maybe not get it? And that would. You make the record that you don't want to make, or you, lose the weight that you didn't even mind having on, and then you don't even get that thing, or do you risk not getting it and being who you are and maybe getting something much better.
And that's more aligned with who you are. And I, I have made that choice though, over this past year. I was like, maybe I shouldn't have made like an eighties inspired synth record that has penalty on it. Like maybe people don't wanna hear that. But I want to hear it. I like that record. And, I feel proud of my choices, but there was a moment where I was just like reflecting on compromises. I could have made to feel. More secure, but ultimately, I don't know that they would've made me feel more secure and I think. The universe, God or whatever, probably has given me this like lull in of sorts in my career to help me understand that like my self-esteem has to come from me and not from the outside.
because if I turned 40 or got older and then that started happening, I think it would be really much harder to figure out how to like, like myself, regardless of what else is going on.
[00:14:12] Michaela: hearing you say this stuff, where most of my interactions with you recently have been through your social media. I wouldn't have known this about you, that you've felt like your career dried up, that you lost these opportunities. So many of us have this story and this experience, especially because of the pandemic. I have the same exact thing of I felt like I had all these opportunities coming in my whole.
Booked. I was doing well. Again, it's all relative because some people would look at my stuff and be like, what? You didn't have much going on? And other people would be like, oh my gosh, she had, she had the world at her fingers, you know? And have struggled with feeling like it all dried up. And then through social media, I would see.
You and think, wow, Lola's doing great and she seems so happy. And she's so vibrant and has this positive energy that makes me feel, I've always been attracted to you because you make me feel good about myself because
it's this kind of like happy magnetic energy. But the older I get and the more I have conversations with friends.
Who we all put this front forward, although I feel like I'm progressively like Debbie Downer because I'm constantly like posting on social media, like the world is fucked up and we're sad and like, because I think there's power in not dwelling on the struggle, but being honest that it's a part of the equation that as good as stuff seems, there's always this.
Negative side or the disappointment, or no matter how many followers you have, you still fall victim to compare and despair it's hard for us to know that the more it seems like we have, those human challenges don't just magically go away in some cases, they actually get magnified.
[00:16:06] Lola: I mean, Mo money, mo problems,
they were said so Well,
[00:16:09] Aaron: Yeah. Poetic. You know, To me it's the dark side of ambition, What we're talking about across the board here is, how to make Long lasting, sustainable, fulfilling career out of things that are passions, for me and for the people that I know intimately, it's like there's just a ton of ambition there.
And that's the carrot on the stick that's always hanging there. I can only speak about The music industry, cuz that's where I, lived my whole life. But, at first it's just oh, I just, I want to headline my own shows. And then so you do that and then it's okay, yeah, but I like, I want to play theaters.
And then it's like, oh, I wanna sell out theaters. And then it's oh, but I need to play arenas. And then, it just keeps at every level the carrot is still on the
[00:16:52] Lola: Yeah.
[00:16:53] Aaron: in front of you.
[00:16:54] Lola: Absolutely. Maybe a more apt poem or, or or song would be a satisfied mind, like this idea that, I forget how that song goes right now, but when I've, I've listened to it, I've been like, that is true. Like, that's the wealthiest you can be is having satisfaction in your life and contentment.
And I do think that. Those things don't really, get advertised in a capitalist society when our worth is derived from, I mean, literally we have worth as an actress, I, and I used to be able to do this better, but I can finance a movie of a certain size. I cannot be in a movie if you.
need this person and that person's not in blah, blah, blah.
And that's crazy to me. in music too it's, like don't really live in a culture that creates space for people to have those kind of fulfilling careers that you were speaking of. and I think that there's like a disappearance in the middle class at large, but there disappearance of that in the arts as well.
you don't really see artists that are just like having nice. Career is in the middle. They're either really struggling or you know, they're Taylor Swift and that sucks.
It's not the world that was sold to us as aspiring artists and children. Certainly.
[00:18:09] Aaron: Right. And I think that's, part of what. Keeps that image, self-fulfilling, you know, is like the almost disnification of being like a successful artist. it's like watching the, I can't remember the name of it, but the, Running down a dream or whatever, the Tom Petty documentary, and it's like, they're in Gainesville and they're writing songs and he walks into a room and Mike Campbell's sitting there in Belmont, Tencher sitting there and they're like, just the best musicians ever. And they like, they hit it off and it sounds amazing.
And they get a band together and they record some demos and they're like, we're gonna go to LA and make it. then they go to LA and make it. And it's like,
[00:18:40] Lola: Yeah.
And then Tom Petty died of a heroin overdose at like the age of what, 65? Like I can't watch Rock Docs cuz they make me like so sad. the Grateful Dead. One, a long, strange trip that was like five hours came out a few years ago, sent me into a di long depression just because that era of music is so special and those artists are so amazing.
But it's interesting how many of them either died by the sword that they lived by, which was, drugs and rock and roll. Or get lots of plastic surgery and keep trying to do it forever, which is also like crazy to me. I'm sure that there are some happy, successful artists.
Of course there are. But I do think that is this kind of, compromise that you do make with your own contentment when you really pursue a larger career I don't know. I, I mean That gives me pause a lot of the time. Cause I'm like, could I be the one that changes that for, could I have it be different for me?
Or am I signing up for just a life of like deep insecurity?
[00:19:40] Michaela: Yeah. It's weird. I have times like, I feel like I'm just naturally a sharer. when I was a kid, I would get pictures printed out and like, Want to like explain to somebody what was in each picture if nobody was there, I would, I would just do it out loud to myself
like,
[00:19:56] Lola: sounds very sweet.
[00:19:59] Michaela: but I feel like that's a natural progression into Instagram of yeah, let me share these pictures and explain to you what's going on.
But then other times I'm like, wait. What are the repercussions to this? And like, this feels weird, and why do I need to share that I'm having dinner with this friend, and what is this doing? Is this making someone feel bad? Why do I need, am I trying to brag? Like it's such a mind fuck of sometimes it feels really natural and easy, and other times it feels really addictive and wrong.
[00:20:25] Lola: Yeah. And it's just kind of sad how interwoven it is with, being an artist right now. and that's why I feel like it gets talked about so much, or at least I talk about it so much. But I feel like a lot of people are because it's inextricable. And to go back to even the first question that you asked, like what's the overlap?
And just being like, well now you you need to just be a celebrity on the in. Before anyone will take you seriously. And it's interesting look, I did not study music in the same way that? you did both of you guys or so many people that I know. I came into music later.
So in a way I feel like a novice and I'm still catching up and I'm learning. But I have been a fan of music in such a like, passionate way since I was a kid. So that was kind of my education, and I think that's a perfectly good education in in a certain way. I I think that's sufficient.
[00:21:13] Michaela: We are not proponents of music school. Just so you know.
[00:21:17] Lola: oh well, okay, great. No, no, no. I, but I, I know so many musicians who are like like, I'm just blown away by how proficient so many people are and how much they've actually studied that level of expertise is so exciting to me and impressive. And as a person that hasn't gone to music tool or become an expert o of music in that way, it's hard for me to be like, expertise is dead and that's what we need.
I also understand how like elitist in a certain way, expertise is and how much. there's a democracy or democratic nature to this kind of anyone can be a celebrity or can be a musician or a pop star if they just have a smartphone. I guess that's a good thing. But I also don't think everyone should be an artist.
[00:21:57] Aaron: No, I agree. I mean
[00:21:58] Lola: not, it's for freaks.
[00:22:00] Aaron: it is, it's for freaks and there, are, people blowing up on TikTok and then all of a sudden they have a music career and they're headlining shows and they've never played a show before. They've
never hired a band. They've never played with a band. you have multiple musicians with Substantial careers now that blew up on TikTok and it's basically like the equivalent of LeBron James in Space Jam.
Like it
makes absolutely no sense and it shouldn't happen,
[00:22:22] Lola: At least that movie was about basketball.
[00:22:24] Aaron: true
and
[00:22:26] Lola: And space.
Yeah. No, it's very, very confusing. It's a very confusing time to be an artist, I don't think I would or could do it if I didn't have this mystical charm that I have just found of self-esteem over the past three weeks.
I mean, I was like, this is crazy and I should probably quit. I was on the airplane the other day and this. Asked me what I did. She was really annoying and I was tired, so I didn't wanna talk, but she was like, what are you doing? I was like, oh fuck, I'm a housewife. And she was like, oh my God, are you married?
And I said, no, look. And she said, do you have kids? And I said, no. And then she was like, so what do you mean you're a housewife? And I was just like, ah. And then I confessed. I was like, I'm an artist. And I don't know why it was so difficult to say. I just feel like everyone on the airplane is full of shit no matter what.
Unless you're sitting next to like Keith Urban, Oh, feel would happen to me anytime
soon. Cause he probably flies private.
I feel like snake oil salesman are just lining the rows of the
[00:23:27] Aaron: Oh yeah. Even just walk on an airplane with a guitar and you'll, everybody's like, Hey, you want a jam? And you're like That.
[00:23:33] Lola: Oh my God. No, it's crazy. And everyone has like a cousin that knows someone on the airplane. But anyway, I felt like maybe I lacked a certain respect for what I did to proudly announce it. Or maybe I just didn't wanna answer questions about it at all. So I lied and said I was a religious housewife, though I couldn't specify which religion.
When she also asked about,
[00:23:52] Aaron: Oh,
[00:23:53] Lola: enough. I gotta learn more about religion if I'm gonna
tell these lies. She just wanted to talk about herself, I think, really. And she was quite interesting. So I understand that because I did the opposite of what I wanted to happen happened where I just ended up listening to her talk for a really long time.
And she was nice. I don't know why I'm being so rude about her. I actually did really like her in the end, but I don't always wanna talk.
[00:24:13] Michaela: so you are kind of like mixed feelings about being an artist. has that gotten worse since adding music career to your artist profile?
[00:24:23] Lola: Yeah.
[00:24:24] Michaela: And do you think growing up in artistic family also informs that?
[00:24:30] Lola: yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I, think that adding mu music to my artist profile into like what I do, taking that hobby and, trying to make it into a career has certainly been a bit crushing because. It makes you look at music a little differently. It's also though made me wanna get better at music, which has been fun.
learning more about things and I didn't know that if you practiced something, you got better at it. That's really cool. So really into that revelation. But I also think just trying to like sell something that you love is a dangerous thing to get involved in it's interesting. I had a discussion with someone I really love recently where they were like, you get everything. And I was like, I get rejected like 99% of the time. Like my job as an actress, like I get maybe a job a year, sometimes I get to, sometimes I don't get anything and all of that music stuff, so many people say no before someone says yes, to double down on that rejection, it is painful. you know, it's not personal or it is, or I'm too tall or I don't know. That was the most recent thing I didn't get. It was because I was too tall and I was like, what? Mm-hmm. Put the actor on a fucking little box and then we can, you know, they wouldn't do it Um
[00:25:47] Aaron: Facing rejection based on something like that. physical character. Yeah. The closest thing I had is like I was asked to audition for Blue Man Group when we lived in New York,
and I was like, cool. It was like,
It would've been like eight months in Brazil. I was like, down, let's do this.
And I walked in and they were like, oh, cuz you had to be like six two and you had to like, and you know I'm five eight and tiny, they're like, musically, it's great, we'll call you. And I was like, okay, cool. This is, I got it. Like I will never get this gig because even though I'm sitting behind the drums, I have to be sexy.
They'll be like,
[00:26:19] Michaela: why is there a little blue man
on this stage?
[00:26:21] Lola: A little. That sounds cute though.
[00:26:23] Aaron: I guess I'm like too.
[00:26:25] Lola: Oh my God. Yeah. You can start your own version here in Nashville. That's very funny. No, I mean, it's funny. So now they've moved all auditions Out of in person, I see that people get cast on Zoom a lot when I watch tv.
I'm like, there was no actual interaction with this person. Not cause they're bad, but because it's like kind of Zoom acting and then it's all on your tv. But you have to do this thing called slating. I don't know if you guys know what a slate.
you tape yourself, and then after the audition you stand really far back from your camera. So it's really awkward and you're probably by yourself because the person you were reading with was on Zoom too, and you have to do a full body slate and you say, Lola Kirk, five foot eight. And then you say where you're based and.
I can't believe that it is so crazy because it is so that people can go, oh, well the actor she's playing against is also that height, so that won't work. Or oh no, she's bigger than we thought. one thing I will say that I appreciated about music was that I saw women. Look not just the same, and I think that's changing a little now.
But like you could be a sexy, popular singer and be not rail thin and not have Botox. There was a little bit more freedom in how you could represent yourself, and more freedom in. what you get to say and do to a degree. Like you can kind of develop your own persona, your own thing in a way that I think as an actress is harder to do and, I want jobs that I don't like because I want to stay in the conversation and I want.
The money which I need to be able to play music because I hemorrhage money as a musician. I've never made money, Yeah.
once. I mean, Whatever I have made, it just goes out and out and that sucks.
[00:28:16] Michaela: I think that's honestly a big misconception that people are now talking about more than ever. But even as a musician, it took me a long time to have these conversations with other musicians to understand I wasn't the only one losing money,
[00:28:31] Lola: Oh my God. Everyone loses money at
huge levels. People are
losing money that's crazy too. But you can't have a career without like a side hustle.
[00:28:39] Aaron: that's one thing that I think, that I've noticed like post pandemic is people are much more open to talking about how financially hard it is. Granted, the pandemic like really cranked down on making it even crazier to be out on the road. But, you know, I hear so many people saying like, Yeah,
we can't sell a European tour cuz we were scheduled to lose a hundred thousand.
And they're big bands, fans definitely
[00:29:00] Michaela: don't know that
[00:29:01] Lola: No, they don't. Maybe they don't have to. I, I do understand the kind of reluctance to be sympathetic towards the plight of the artist from a fan perspective because we get to do coolest thing in the world in a lot of ways. and maybe they don't understand that.
And that has hangups, but also I think. I'm jealous of non-artistic people, honestly. I think it must be really of cool to seek a simpler life. And maybe that's naive to think it would be simpler not to wanna do something like this. Maybe what we do is simple.
But I, wonder what it's like to like, just want what you have and to you know, seek security above all else in your.
[00:29:42] Aaron: Yeah, I was actually thinking about this morning cuz I was hearing on the radio. How all these tech companies are, having massive layoffs and for decades it's been that if you're in the tech industry, you get laid off. It's like really easy to find another job because there's always openings.
But now you have Google and Facebook or whatever their parent companies are and Amazon and all of these places laying off tens of thousands of employees they're starting to see that. It's hard to get rehired.
[00:30:08] Lola: They're gonna be busking in the streets soon.
All of the laid off Amazon workers.
[00:30:13] Aaron: yeah. And oh, I was like, I had the thought, I was like, maybe being an artist is a stable career cuz It's like just stably unprofitable,
you know?
It's just been like consistently, like you're not making money. it's not like the tech industry where like you're making
multiple six figures and then you can't get a job I remember there was a Jim Carey interview that kind of made the rounds on the internet. Five, eight years ago, He was talking about being an artist and, having a career in art and how he watched his dad like, choose the safe route for his entire life. And he wore jobs that he like, didn't really like, but he made money. And supported the family. And he was like a few years away from being able to retire and he got fired and Jim Carey was like, that was a defining moment that it was like my dad picked the safe route that he hated for my entire.
And he still didn't make it to the finish line, so like, I might as well try to do this other thing. And we all know how that turned out for Jim Carey. He's, last thing I heard, he's like, hanging from a trape in a loft and
[00:31:05] Lola: Yeah, he's far out. Yeah I appreciate the Jim Carey of it all from afar though I do find him very attractive
[00:31:12] Aaron: he is
[00:31:14] Lola: Yeah, I know. I was like, is Jim Carey hot as I got older? I didn't realize that though. I, my childhood crush was David Spade
[00:31:22] Aaron: Insurance didn't see that coming.
[00:31:24] Lola: Black, which I get more Jack
Black.
I understand
[00:31:27] Michaela: I understand Jack Black for you as well.
Yeah,
[00:31:30] Lola: you know, Jack Black. yeah, maybe Jack. No. I do, I think he's the funniest man alive, but David Spade really weird. I don't know what was going on.
[00:31:41] Aaron: like
Tommy Boy era, David Spade,
[00:31:43] Lola: yeah, sure. I find him negative though, but maybe I like that.
[00:31:48] Aaron: a little
[00:31:48] Lola: whiny. Yeah. I can't remember. But um, yeah, those we digress. Yes.
Yeah. who were you just talking about? Who
[00:31:58] Aaron: I was talking about? Jim Carey. Jim Carey.
He, he seems
[00:32:01] Michaela: like someone who's been having like a serious spiritual, existential evolution.
Right. I like this little bit that I've heard him talk because I feel like I'm constantly like maybe we're all doing it all. And just because so many of us are doing it this way doesn't mean it's the way that we should be living. So hence my recent quest of I relate to your, saying like, I envy people who aren't artists are kind of like seeking out just a simpler life. I used to look at people who just got a job and had kids early and had a family as ugh.
Like the most boring, if I'm being brutally honest. I always was like, yuck. I would never want that life. And now I find wow that's the shit, like that's what life is about. Just finding your people enjoying like the simple pleasures in life, understanding devotion and responsibility and like all of that stuff that on the outside used to seem so boring and bland to me.
And now my feeling is how can I have both?
How can I have my beautiful, calm, contented, little family life, but still be a seeker in my creativity and my art, but not be destroyed by the career aspect of wanting to make my livelihood from my art?
[00:33:21] Lola: I feel like it's so great to get that kind of clarity about what your objective is because then you get to really make decisions that are in line with your values. And I think that like, Identifying values that's where it's at. people with no values are dangerous people, but I think that people who have values, no matter what they are, I mean, you have bad values.
what's for me to say what's a bad value? Whatever. But also, don't be friends with people whose values you don't agree with,
[00:33:51] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:51] Lola: learn from them.
[00:33:52] Aaron: Right. I think that the key to all of that is it's intention. If you know what your values are. whether they can be deemed good or bad or whatever. It's like you're living intentionally, so to me like, don't be friends with people that have values that don't align with yours.
Absolutely. Comparable intentions. Sympathetic intentions.
[00:34:08] Lola: Or, know,
keep 'em in a distance and appreciate them cuz they're funny and fun or something.
[00:34:13] Aaron: Right.
[00:34:14] Lola: I have a different kind of friendship with them. Don't make them your best friend. But yeah, I think that I relate Mikayla to this being like, how do I have both? and also just like, how do I have the life that I'm supposed to have there's something so interesting to me about, the pursuit of fame, cuz in a lot of ways it feels incredibly adolescent. it's something that kids want. it's what I wanted as a kid. I wanted 'em to be famous. I I wanted to be an artist too, and I wanted to be great and the best and blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I think a lot of that need for accomplishment was also about like I had no other s stable relationship in my artistic family. There was, so much insecurity that I didn't feel connected to them, but if I felt connected to this other thing, this institution that would love me and give me the security that I so desperately needed, and a big part of what I, would love about and have enjoyed about being successful as an artist and would love more of I want my needs anticip.
And I want to be unconditionally loved and adored that's a kid. That's a child. I would like to remain a child forever, but also not, I mean, being a child was pretty miserable for me. I love being a grownup, I get to do whatever I want So why would I want to go?
back there.
[00:35:26] Aaron: Having your needs anticipated and being loved un unconditionally, unconditionally, sounds great. I think that's
just the human condition,
[00:35:33] Michaela: seeking that through how we are received or through these nameless people that are going to adore us through our, work.
Is just asking for pain and suffering, right.
[00:35:44] Lola: Also, it's just misunderstanding what fucking art is about. we should be giving, not getting, I received so much from the artists that I loved growing up I'm sure that they were narcissistic and insane and whatever, but I didn't know that because they didn't have social media.
So I just knew the good things about them, and I'm like here today because of that, I'm the weird person that I am because of that. I have depth because of that, or whate, whatever. I got so much from other people. So the idea that I could sit around for a year and just be like, I'm so fucking mad.
I didn't get anything. It's like, well, then you missed the point.
[00:36:19] Aaron: Yeah.
Earlier in their conversation, talked about actors that are coming out that don't see the, history of what they're a part of. To me that's the beauty of both film and making records is that these last in perpetuity okay, so maybe your, record wasn't received really well this year, but like it is there and it is a piece of art that.
That people will be able to find 40 years from
now. I'm still finding records from like 1972 that I've never heard about that. Like
[00:36:47] Lola: Oh, did you hear the Lowell George? One from Little Feet that was just like trending on my Spotify and I listened to it and I loved it.
[00:36:53] Aaron: I haven't heard it yet, but I've heard about it. I've
heard it's amazing. So like that, this is a piece of art that, will be there and that will. In the future. but I understand, I mean, I feel it too, in the time of Spotify and Apple Music and like, you release something and then oh, it's gotta get on a playlist and it's
gotta get this and it's trending.
The idea that music can be trending,
Is such like an instant gratification thing. And then you have these industries like Spotify, they're like, the way to really make this profitable is just keep releasing content. And you're like, of course you're saying that because this is how you make money.
You Spotify, this is how you make money.
[00:37:28] Lola: Yeah. Fuck them.
And with that, I have to run.
[00:37:33] Michaela: Well, Thank you so
[00:37:34] Lola: Thank you guys so much.
This was so fun.