Maia Friedman is a solo singer/songwriter, as well as a member of The Dirty Projectors and Coco. We talk with Maia about the ingrained narrative of climbing the endless ladder, mothering while on the road, balancing the needs and the desires of parenthood and career, the economics of touring, navigating schedules in a dual artist-parent household, and a whole lot more.
Maia Friedman is a solo singer/songwriter, as well as a member of The Dirty Projectors and Coco. We talk with Maia about the ingrained narrative of climbing the endless ladder, mothering while on the road, balancing the needs and the desires of parenthood and career, the economics of touring, navigating schedules in a dual artist-parent household, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 117. This week our conversation is featuring Maya Friedman.
Aaron: Maya Friedman is a singer songwriter, side woman based in New York, originally from California.
She Lewis's records under her own name. She has a trio of singers and songwriters called Coco, with Dan Moad from Lucius, previous guest of ours as well as Oliver Hill, who has his own project called Pavo Pavo and the band Halat Negro. And she is one of the singers in I would say seminal late aughts, indie rock band. Dirty projectors.
Michaela: Yeah. We lived in Brooklyn when I feel like dirty [00:01:00] projectors exploded and Oh yeah. Dirty
Aaron: projectors, grizzly bear tv, on the radio,
Michaela: dirty projectors. Especially though I feel like just had this moment where they were, maybe it was the scene that we were in that I was like the jazz school, like Yeah, the jazz school, everyone was.
Obsessed, hard. It's 'cause they gave all the so
Aaron: hard,
they gave the jazz nerds permission to write songs.
Michaela: Yes. But Maya Freedman, we didn't even talk about this. We've known Maya for a very long time. Mm-hmm. Since we were all in our early twenties, um, working at coffee shops in Dimus Park mm-hmm. and becoming friendly. So it was really fun to catch up with her today. And Erin and I are always conscious of how if we have a parent musician on this podcast, how it can quickly talk about parenting. And we tried to keep it focused on music.
And you know what, it's hard to do because when you become a parent. It can influence everything about your career.
Aaron: And also, especially when we have a guest like Maya, who is very vulnerable and real and honest, and open about her current experience as she is releasing a new record and setting [00:02:00] out on tour with her daughter.
you know, it's inevitably very inviting to the conversation. And, I will safely say that this is viewpoint that. will be fresh for our listeners. Definitely. And it's new territory that we're able to get to.
Michaela: Yeah, I think it's a really wonderful conversation. We're so appreciative of Maya for being so honest and mm-hmm.
We cover topics like the perception of reality and time and continually redefining success. For ourselves, how hard that can be at any given moment, and the honesty around grieving former versions of ourselves and former chapters in our lives. And just a disclaimer, I fully break down and cry on this episode, so you're gonna have that.
Aaron: and as you've heard, if you've listened to a previous episode, are topics that we touch on in here that come at the suggestion of some of our listeners, and some of those, do happen to be parenting topics and navigating as a family because Maya's partner he's a engineer and producer, they're a dual artist, family as well. But those come as direct suggestions from our Patreon [00:03:00] subscribers. And not only is that an extension and deepening of this community over there, it is the only way that you can financially support the production of this show, which may not seem like much, but it takes a lot, even for a small production like ours.
So if you would like to get deeper, if you would like, advance notice that you can have your questions answered by our guests or moral satisfaction of supporting our show.
There is a link below to our Patreon in our show notes.
Michaela: And if you're a visual person, this and all of our past conversations are available on YouTube.
Aaron: little teaser that you're gonna see a costume change if you're watching on YouTube. Oh, yeah,
Michaela: that's true. And, without further ado, here's our conversation with Maya Friedman.
you were just on tour, right?
Maia: yes.
Michaela: And you just got back and you bring your daughter on tour.
Maia: Yeah,
Michaela: With a nanny?
Maia: the past I've had a nanny, but this time I brought my mom, who is. 76.
Michaela: Wow.
Maia: She was a total champ. She was a trooper, as was Petra, my daughter. But mom wasn't feeling well
the whole time. I think she was like fighting an [00:04:00] infection and I was like wracked with guilt
Aaron: mm.
Maia: time.
I just felt so bad for asking her to, I mean, she made her own choice,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: to do it, that was hard. That
Aaron: Was that your mom's first tour
Maia: She's come with me to Europe I did some dirty projector stuff, but it was like a few days in one place and then like a few days in another place that was like 45 minutes away.
Like it was
pretty stationary. this one we went from Vancouver down to la
Michaela: So it was long drives.
Maia: Yeah.
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. My dad was here. Was it when we were building the studio? No, it wasn't. We were doing some other, my dad's a retired carpenter, which means he just like comes down here and helps me build stuff for free. Um,
Aaron: including
the, the studio that we're sitting in. But we were doing some work on our actual house and we had to go and play Mountain Stage in the middle of that.
And so he came with us. He hopped in the van, drove to West Virginia, seven hours to West Virginia. We played the show. Satan Hotel, got up super early and like drove back and I think [00:05:00] he found it amusing, but like for the first time in my life, at the end of that trip, he's like.
You guys work really hard.
I'm like, you get it?
Maia: that's what my mom said too.
Aaron: Yeah,
Maia: day she was like very concerned for my wellbeing yeah.
I don't have managers anymore,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: and I don't have a booking agent anymore, You know? I like don't have the budget for
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: So I was like managing tour, managing, managing the band, being mom, taking care of my mom,
Michaela: we can relate. Yeah.
Maia: yeah. It's a lot.
Aaron: how long have you been back? did you just finish recently?
Maia: a week ago.
Aaron: how are you feeling?
Maia: I'm okay. so my husband his name is Phil. Oh. I wish that he was like sitting right here
Aaron: I know.
Maia: so that we could just like do a
Aaron: Yeah.
Maia: Phil is in Nashville making a record.
Michaela: Amazing.
Maia: And so it's just been so nice to be home and to not be traveling with her, but it is just like jumping right into solo
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maia: Feels like [00:06:00] making the record of his dreams in Nashville
Aaron: Uh, amazing.
Nice.
Maia: yes, it
Aaron: What? Yeah. You're like nice for him. I get it. I'm, usually the one that'll stay and do solo parenting thing. Like, Mikayla was just on the road
Maia: Yeah.
Aaron: the last like two weeks basically we could say. it was like four shows throughout the Midwest, and we decided we'd try it as a family of four and she was playing solo.
So we'd go I love to say that I do all like the fun parts of touring, which is like, get up early, do the drive load in, and then I'd go to the hotel. Yeah. And um, know, so it was, it was
that directly. Then we came back more or less, and McKayla then flew with Henry to New York and played a show in Philly.
So I went like directly into solo parenting and.
I was like at home with a toddler. She was like, on the road with a, with a baby. With a baby, which is
Michaela: honestly so much easier than a toddler.
Aaron: Yeah. They're
not mobile. they stay right where you put up.
They can't
Michaela: talk and they can't move. it's hard on my body because he has to be, you know,
carried everywhere. [00:07:00] Yes. and more gear and everything, and like, that's why I love these conversations and sharing on social media and seeing other parents share of like learning how to make it easier and more manageable.
But this is like the sweet spot age of, I mean,
Maia: neither of us ever really get a break because we're just dividing and conquering.
Michaela: I've noticed that the deeper we get into it, the less I actually need as much time to recover or care for myself or, you know, maybe, that's not a good thing. But I feel like you know, before kids, like you'd come home from tour and be like, oh, I'm now, I'm depressed from the tour let down and I'm just gonna stay in bed and watch Netflix all day.
And like, you cannot do that when you have kids. So I don't
have know.
come down depression anymore because it's just right back into everything. And honestly, I'm like happy in both situations. So that's helpful I think.
Aaron: I hear you on like the not being able to, like, [00:08:00] there's no downtime uhhuh.
And so what Mikayla was saying is in the middle of this tour that she was doing, I flew to Baltimore to sit on the graduate jury panel at the Peabody Institute for their like advanced studio production students. So I
listened to, it's you know,
11 pieces and then sat in a recital hall and gave feedback.
Like everybody had to have like,
Maia: oh my God.
Aaron: it, you know, your brain has to work. It wasn't quite like, you know, it wasn't quite like whiplash level, you know, but like everybody got feedback. It was myself somebody who was adjudicating like the jazz songs that they had to produce. And then they had to also do a classical recording.
So it was somebody on each, and I was handling the rock and pop stuff. I got like, 36 hours to myself, with no kids and all that. But I was like in a recital hall the whole time. And I swear, like the three days after I got back, I was exhausted, because I finally slowed down.
So I, think I just decided, on that trip that like, I just won't stop for like, the next five years. Yeah. We're sharks and, and then I'm just not gonna stop and I'll sleep. Then, when our kids are like all in, [00:09:00] like Monday through Friday school, I'll
sleep then.
Maia: preschool.
Michaela: Yeah. someone said that to me recently, I was like, you just can't stop moving.
They're like, oh, you're like a shark. I'm like, yeah, if you stop to rest, you're gonna be really tired. You feel tired.
Maia: Oh
Michaela: are you, what are your feelings about this, Maya? Because
Maia: I'm just like, yes, you're speaking my experience, basically. Yeah. I mean, I too, you know, when we were traveling home the last day of tour, I was, worried about the, tour come down,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: also coincided with my record coming out. So
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: the tour ended, came out. I had another show, and then I flew home and, so I was like concerned about being able to really show up for Petro while I was.
Michaela: Processing and, Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Maia: tour ending and record coming out simultaneously is just like
years of buildup and then it's out and then, I was having feelings. I, couldn't even identify. I feel like I barely have time to feel anything. And [00:10:00] so it was a lot of me just being like, okay, I'm just gonna feel what this is.
I don't even know what the feeling is.
and I made the mistake of, I would like put Petra to bed and then like clean
Which I always say to my husband that parenting is just cleaning. And then I like finally, you know, eat dinner and then, I would get into bed and I would watch,
until like 2:00 AM
Aaron: Okay.
Maia: Bad,
Aaron: Yep,
Maia: bad, bad, bad.
Because Petra, we came from LA so she was like waking up just a little bit later, but like two to 8:00 AM
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: doesn't cut it.
Aaron: It's, an evil trick that your brain plays on you. We've been having the same experience, we're on kid two. We've learned, like we've been there, we've been through it. We know, we're like, cool, we are prepared, we don't go to bed early. We go to bed like way later than we did.
In December when we had one kid. Yeah. Now we have two and it'll be like 1145. I'm like, Hey, how about this deep involved question? Let's like figure this out right now. Yeah. You know?
Maia: Yeah.
Michaela: it's [00:11:00] a,
Maia: you're talking.
Michaela: yeah, that's true.
going back to what you were saying about being on tour so like your creative life, you have multiple public endeavors of your solo work, your band, Coco, and then dirty projectors.
So I'm super curious 'cause dirty projectors obviously is like a very established band and bigger operation and kind of. Navigating going between those different situations, especially what you just described for your solo career of not having a manager, not having a tour manager, not having a booking agent and doing it all.
I think that there's this kind of false idea that the end all be all goal is to be as big as you can be and have all of the things. And that definitely was how I've come up and have been continually combating this kind of like, process of not being embarrassed by my lack of production [00:12:00] in what I do as a solo musician.
I'm so curious for you if you can talk to that, of, if you ever have any of those feelings and like the pros and cons of being involved in a bigger production versus having a smaller team situation. Obviously it's always great to have help and I'm sure you'd want things off your plate, what comes to mind as I'm, talking about this for you, in your experience of operating in multiple situations with different levels of support.
Maia: I'll just start I guess by responding to our own ideas of success and what that means to us. I mean, that comes from such a deep programmed place. I have received messaging from our society, our world, our culture, that like, there is no end to the like climbing up, up, up, up, up.
Like, and every time you reach a new goal Like, it just keeps moving and moving and moving and moving. And I have been trying to [00:13:00] redefine success for myself I don't know what that means. with my own music, I want it to grow and to be bigger and to, play bigger stages and have a bigger fan base and like, grow bigger, bigger.
But I don't have control over that just between my creative life and being a mother. I think that I'm struggling still with that balance. but something that I just noticed coming back, So I did four and a half days away for the first chunk. It was my first time away from her. She also did really well. She was home with my husband and my mom. But the after effect was that, I mean, maybe it's just the developmental stage. She was
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: to me, like, would not let go of me,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: let me put her down.
then after this tour where she was with me, we did so many goodbye transitions.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: Talk to her about what was happening every day but it was like a [00:14:00] lot of goodbye. And then I think we came home, my husband was gone, my mom left, and then it was just me.
And then I think she's just clung onto me even more. if I move she like runs and
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: my leg and, it's just, it's sad that She has this insecurity. Maybe that's just really normal. But whenever that's happening, I'm always like, what am I doing? I'm quitting music. I should just be a full-time parent and just give her everything that she needs and, the balance between all of that all the time. I'm always like flip-flopping between being like, I want the freedom and independence to be able to make decisions and go into the world with my creative projects as freely as I want to.
the struggle with, the balance of that. I can't do that 'cause I have a child
versus having guilt around. Leaving her more than she would like. So [00:15:00] Success. I'm trying to redefine it. I'm not there.
Aaron: I'm constantly redefining it for myself. I would like to, you know, be idealistic and be like, no. Every year I reevaluate, but it's like every four months I'm like, no, it's this. Oh no, it's this. It's like do you feel this pull and, division between. Parenthood and then your actual like artistic, creative outlets. Do you find a difference when you're doing something with your own project versus, like with Coco versus with Dirty Projectors? in my mind full assumption here, as you're stepping into something, say like Dirty Projectors and just knowing the history of the band and the music of that I'm just wondering if that feels almost more like a job in a sense,
Maia: Yes. the amount of work that I have to do, granted I was really doing the most with dirty projector. I mean, I'm still a part of the project, but I. a lot changed during the pandemic, right? [00:16:00] 2018 and 19, I was basically full-time on tour. It was so fun
and so rewarding.
And then the pandemic happened. Dave had a daughter and then he's been working for a really long time on this piece of music that was just released April called Song of the Earth and For Song of the Earth. It's this orchestral piece of music. The desire by Dave and his whole team is for it to be performed with orchestras.
or like chamber ensembles, Dave and Felicia Douglas, who's another one of the vocalists, did a few performances, but it's been remade over and over and over. We did a performance with the Los Angeles Phil Harmonic. a little over a year ago.
Petra was five months, and I think there's some relief. The management team is really [00:17:00] wonderful. They're so organized, on top of it, they basically are just like, do this show up here,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: And then you just do.
Aaron: Yeah.
That's amazing. it, you know? And, I'm not a part of the behind the scenes logistic, planning. I just am given the music, learn it, which is not, easy. That's really challenging, but it's so rewarding. just told, you know what to do. Here's the music.
Maia: This is when the dates are, are you available? When do you wanna fly? who are you bringing? They've been very accommodating so my daughter came with my husband for that one.
'cause that was the first
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maia: rehearsal started when she was like, just under five months. The performance was when she was five months. It was stressful 'cause it was the first thing with her. It was so nice to just show up
That's fun.
Aaron: Yeah, I can imagine. So what was [00:18:00] that like being so heavily involved with dirty projectors and then the pandemic happening? How did that affect you personally?
Maia: It affected me hugely. Mm-hmm. Had recorded this set of music called Five eps, and it was sort of like each vocalist in the band had their own EP that was part of this kind of box set, and that was coming out 2020.
And so that whole year in October, like went through a breakup.
I was living with my ex. gave up my apartment. 'cause I was doing all of this touring I was just moving around post breakup vibes. we had touring planned for the whole year and obviously that was all canceled we didn't end up doing anything for that
set of music.
that was disappointing. That was sad, but of my [00:19:00] control, out of all of our control. And what happened instead was. I was staying with Cassandra Jenkins in her family's house in upper Manhattan. Cassandra invited me to her friend's Zoom, musician workout hang group. The person leading that group was my now husband who I met, and the first day he was like who's Maya Friedman, right? And then I asked him out for a virtual coffee. and then we, started dating and then have our child. And so I would say that, that's a big effect.
Aaron: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Maia: during that year is when all of the Song of the Earth music started emerging for Dave.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: Had a child, he was just really focusing on writing this music, and then he started scoring this film called The Legend of Ochi I wrote my record over those years, my record that just came [00:20:00] out
Michaela: so a very different path than if the pandemic hadn't happened. Have you had to do kind of work to reconcile that has it been hard to think about what could have been if the world hadn't changed? Or are you easier with just like, this stuff is outta my control. This is obviously what was meant to happen because that's what happened.
Maia: no, I do not have the emotional bandwidth to go into. Like What would haves and what could haves
Michaela: Oh, that's so
nice. I like live in that
space far too often. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Maia: I don't have the time.
Michaela: That's good.
Maia: I don't Mm-hmm. have the time. I
Michaela: I think
Maia: think part of that also is just okay, dirty projectors, like was sort of on pause.
Coco put out two records. I put out two records.
I was just really able to focus on that side of everything and, I was falling in love.
you know, that's so all consuming. you get all these chemicals and [00:21:00] hormones Yeah. But you feel like you, go there a lot.
Michaela: Oh yeah.
it's so interesting the narratives that we can attach to who's to say what's, real or not? But my perception of my experience and my story is very different than perhaps Aaron's perception of my story as he's, you know, the most up close witness.
I feel like I'm shifting a bit. But I've spent a long time holding onto what could have been if the pandemic hadn't happened, because I felt like I put out a record in 2019. It was, you know. Quote unquote, doing well, getting attention. I got a booking agent, I had a record deal, I had booking agents in Europe.
I had multiple festivals and touring. And in my mind I've lost most of that stuff. And like a lot of festivals and things that I had at that time have not come back. But Aaron is very quick to point [00:22:00] out. Okay. But what about the 10 other festivals you've played since then
and the great tours?
Maia: to hear Aaron's, what's Aaron's reflection of that story?
Aaron: she's cheering it accurately. It's very much like, if I zoom back and look at like my overarching. opinion of it. It's that when you focus heavily on the what could have beens under the lens of like, it was so great, then the further you get away from that time, and the more you fixate on that paradigm, the more the balance skews in my opinion.
So I think it's just human nature that like when you look back, like it was great then and everything changed and now it's bad. All of the good things then are going to be inflated and exaggerated, and all of the day-to-day hardships that you're seeing now, every day are going to diminish. And so it's that paradigm and that perception is gonna skew more and more as time [00:23:00] goes. Is my opinion,
I operate more like you.
I'm like, I am where I am. I'm grateful to be doing what I'm doing and where I'm at. And like, yeah, I get angry and sad and, you know, self-conscious and down on myself, like when things aren't working. But I also, when I'm like in my higher self, I'm able to be like, well, that's just a door that's closed.
What is the door that's open right now? Let me follow that.
Aaron: I guess to like kind of just use an analogy for McKayla's story. It's like, for me, you know, hindsight's 2020, but like, you know, you're seeing less detail the further back you look.
If you look at like your day, you're seeing every crack in the sidewalk, every little pebble every, little detail that, like, I forget that about yesterday, you know,
Maia: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: with, lack of sleep and hectic schedules and all of that. So that's, kind of the overarching view I have.
Michaela: And one of the things that I think I've been thinking about in my head space of how I've viewed my life and career with how the pandemic influenced everything and the narrative I've been telling myself is that [00:24:00] I have greatly given all of the attention to my career versus the other parts of my life you know, like you said yeah, okay, so the dirty projectors touring, that was so fun and it didn't continue, but I was falling in love and like your personal life was expanding in this huge way.
In my situation, you know, we've been together forever, so like we weren't newly falling in love. if I really, really elevate my personal life for the same energy and regard that I have given my career life, I'm like, that time was incredible for our relationship. We in a different way, restarted our partnership.
I had a baby. All of those things maybe wouldn't have happened if I had been on my very narrow goal of just expanding my career and being on tour all year. Who knows what would've happened for our relationship. and again, one of the points of this podcast for us is trying to [00:25:00] have the discussion of.
Coming up as musicians and being career focused and having all of our community and friendships be in the same field. We notice how unhealthy it has become for a lot of us as we're in our mid to late thirties reaching like, you know, middle age.
Like how much more there is to our lives than just this one narrow focus and how much expanding our view and valuing these other parts of our life can really feed and exemplify our creativity. But maybe that's separate from the career. And how do we kind of reconcile all of those things? And coming back to like what you said of redefining my idea of success, I know for me my idea of success has long been being on a tour bus and headlining big venues.
And now I'm like, Why is that? Is that mine? Or is that because that's the messages that we've gotten that [00:26:00] success is making more all the time, more money, more fans. Bigger, bigger, bigger. in my soul, is that what is successful for me?
That's the question I come back to a lot. And what these conversations also feed the endless curiosity as it changes for everybody else as well. I.
Maia: You know, how you talk about the pandemic as being this kind of before and after the way that that really plays out to me is before and after having my daughter,
which is complicated. Like I, her more than anything in
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: universe, right?
Like, she's my favorite. I'm obsessed with her, you know, all of that. And also, I love to be alone. To go for walks without like, to go anywhere, like just for the sake of wandering.
I haven't written a song since she was born.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: Even know how to get there the amount of time I have to even consider my own desires or my own feelings, if I'm [00:27:00] hungry or like have to pee, like sometimes I'll go a half a day holding my pee. 'cause I'm like, I don't have time.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: it's hard to admit or say openly I'm still going through these waves of grief around the life that I had before Petra was born.
Aaron: I can go to a dark place around
Mm-hmm.
Maia: and I just really, try not to, because I, have to be the best version I can be for my daughter. but sometimes I'm really sad. I feel
Aaron: Yeah.
Maia: sad. And I think that just really came out with doing these last few tours that I just did for my record.
it was like the first 24 hours I was away the first night we went to Boston and
got food poisoning,
Michaela: Oh no. Oh God.
Maia: between like soundcheck, Anyway, long story short, I didn't even play that show.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: Like we set up [00:28:00] our was on the stage,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Maia: vomited through the entire set.
so it's like first night away from my daughter, like back on tour.
And then the four and a half days I was away in the Midwest. I had the biggest meltdown before leaving, the night before I left my husband and I were in bed and I cried for like three hours and not
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Maia: like little tears, like, I was like,
What am I doing? Like, this all feels wrong. I can't believe I'm leaving. Everything feels wrong. It's so wrong. It took me like a day and a half once I had left to then get back in the rhythm and I had three days of feeling like, oh my God, I'm just me. out in the world doing it the way that I did before Petra and then this tour where she came and I was saying to my band mates, I was just warning them that the tour on the West coast was gonna be really different than in the Midwest.
when we were all traveling together. It just, there was that sense of comradery and friendship that you have on [00:29:00] tour I love traveling and being alone and walking out into the world and I have this feeling of like nobody knows where I am right now.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: Just out
anonymously in the world then on West Coast, it was like the band, and then it was me and my mom and Petra, and it was so separated. was like running around like a chicken with its head cut off, just trying to do it all. And, I was like getting to sleep at 1:00 AM and Petra was waking up at like 5:30 AM
Aaron: Yep.
Maia: it was hard.
And I felt, again, I was like, am I doing? Why am I doing this? And, it's been waves. I think when Petra was first born, it was like, the first year was the mourning was. Very strong, then it lessened, and then, with my record coming out, increased.
it's like, when I think about grief it's nonlinear.
Michaela: Yep.
Maia: It comes in waves and cycles. you'll be like, oh, I'm healed. And then it'll come back up [00:30:00] again. And I think I'm just trying to wrap my head around that being the case for this also. and it kills me that like, involves my daughter.
I don't want to have any bad feelings about her existence. I mean, I, don't have bad feelings about her existence.
Aaron: mm-hmm.
Maia: The way that my life has changed.
Michaela: I wanna say thank you for sharing that, because I think a lot of people, especially mothers, but I think parents in general feel that, and then feel guilty for feeling it.
Like you, made a point to try and preface like, no, I love my daughter. Of course you do.
Maia: Right.
Michaela: but I think for mothers, especially, like if you experience pregnancy and childbirth, there's so many things. Your, body is different, your hormones are different. You are a completely new person. But we live in a culture and a society that does not honor that.
So it feels even more isolating to be like, wait, nobody told me that I'm losing this [00:31:00] big. Part of me, this life, I look in the mirror and I don't look the same. I'm emotionally so different because I have this little being now that I love more than anything. But also I never wanna be away from it.
But also I really just wanna be away from it. But that feels awful. honestly, it just feels like you're fucked, mm-hmm. forever. And that, grief,
Maia: yep.
Michaela: I think that grief is, I'm learning, especially now having a second baby. And, and the experience feels different to me because it's not so shocking, because it's familiar I understand that the phases end You know, you come back to yourself in these different ways. But I think these conversations are helpful to understand that these aren't singular experiences like, accepting the grief is so helpful to me. Three quick things that I wanna say. One, I didn't write a song for first two years of Georgia's life and talking to other mothers, artist [00:32:00] mothers helped me.
Efo Donovan. Hopefully she doesn't mind it. I say this, I remember texting with her and she told me she did not write a song for the first 18 months of motherhood. She had other endeavors that helped nurture that other bands. And then she came back to it. Second, another friend of mine, I remember when Georgia was almost two and had a massive sleep regression and I was losing my mind.
We were
losing our minds,
Aaron: like in, in
insane,
Michaela: and nothing would help.
It was just awful. And I remember talking to a friend who had two kids and saying like. I wish I could be a fun mom, and I'm so like depressed you know, and she said, I don't know if this is gonna make sense to you now, and I hope you understand the way I'm using this word, but you will become a better mom the longer you do it.
She's like, you just get better at it. She was like, you know, like, I barely sleep. I'm not tired anymore. Like, I feel that now I remember it and I'm like, oh, it makes sense. I'm better at this now because. Time has gone on. And third, the last one is this like total [00:33:00] acceptance of grief, that it's a part of it.
Last night I just started sobbing as we were in my changing the sheets on our bed we watched this video that I had never seen of Georgia playing with Erin. And she was like, two. And the way she was talking, I was like, oh my God, she's gone. And he was like, but she's not, but like that version of her is gone and the version that she is now will be gone, and I was like, so distraught. I'm gonna try not to cry right now,
but it's just, There
the passing of time is
like, it's excruciating,
Maia: I know.
Michaela: but.
I think that's like the beauty of this. this is the second, third time on this podcast.
I've totally lost it and cried.
Maia: I'm here for it.
Michaela: But I think accepting the grief rather than feeling like this is so sad that I feel sad is the goal because life is about grieving and loving. You don't have one without the other. That's my weekly therapy session. [00:34:00] I think just hearing you talk, I've felt all these same things and I think, we constantly try and be conscious before we talk to a parent, especially a mother on this podcast of like, let's not only talk about parenting.
But it is so impossible. It's impossible to get away from it because it's life altering and it's also. What life is, even if you're not a parent. It helps kind of learn some really essential parts of what it is to be alive. And I think that grief is just so acute when you are not living in a way that you think you can be just about yourself.
Aaron: Yeah. I mean, and especially being artist parents, you know, and being a front woman with a child's under too, that's a unique situation. Mm-hmm. You're needed so much in. So many things. You know, as a front woman, you're kind of like the mother of the band on the road, and then you have like an actual human being that's like responsible.
Their whole literal existence on this planet is [00:35:00] your responsibility more or less, especially, you know, under six months if you choose to breastfeed and they're able to do so. it's intense. And then, the thing I've been thinking about and we've, talked about this a lot, I think there's this guilt and in parallel with that the shame that also is bedfellows with guilt of being self-employed and having such facility in your decisions, in your schedule, in your day to day, you know, asterisk.
Like obviously we all have to work to make money, but like, there's this separation, I think and I've observed if you work for somebody else, this is my job. I have to go to my job. I have to do this. And so it's like much easier to just be like, I have to do this. You know? And it's just that paradigm shift makes it a hundred percent, it amplifies everything
Michaela: Yeah.
Versus choosing to go on tour. And also when the economy of touring is not a hundred percent. Like, I'm choosing to go on tour because I have to, because it's gonna make me money. Well, no, that's not always the case. Sometimes you're choosing to go on tour and spend money, and then you feel extra like, am I
making [00:36:00] the right decisions?
Maia: I know.
Michaela: it's difficult.
Maia: Tour that I just did, I could have just gone by myself,
but I just don't know what else I'm going to be doing this year. And I
Aaron: Mm.
Maia: to represent the music as best I could.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: Recorded with a chamber ensemble.
I just, wanted it to be full. And
I have a label who gave me tour support, $16,000
I made a very detailed budget
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maia: How much the store was gonna cost, I need to like go through and do all of the money stuff, but I'm pretty sure $20,000 is what it's costs to just do the tour that I went on,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: the label gave me some, I'm out of pocket for the rest. It's really hard to justify.
Michaela: All of the decisions are, different. There's
different things weighing on you. There's different things to risk, but I think these conversations are so essential because so many of us are [00:37:00] like, am I just personally failing?
How come my tour's not making money or this or that? And I think this is the stuff that we need to talk about. And ultimately trying to continually come back redefine success for ourselves and understanding that maybe the bottom line is not how we define our success, which is very difficult to do in a capitalistic society.
it's hard to not go there. I. I had just had like a breakdown, right?
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: is in Nashville. He is having the time of his life, and my daughter Petra is really needing a lot from me. I'm like missing interviews and I'm just dropping the ball on my own projects and I like hit my limit.
I was so pissed I was like yelling at him and then it turned into crying and luckily he's just so, like, the way that he's been responding is just thank you for sharing all of that with me. it all turned around, right? I
Aaron: It [00:38:00] basically was
Maia: can't
Aaron: like,
Maia: cheerleader right now. also, this woman came up to me yesterday and like Monologued about her life of like growing up one of 11, living on a dirt floor, not having shoes. She saved money to buy a house and then sent her kids to college who were sending their kids to Ivy Leagues, you know?
And then I'm like, I'm so selfish. I'm so ungrateful. why am I not grateful for all of these opportunities? I have this label that's giving me this money to go on tour. I should be grateful that I only lost $4,000 and not $20,000. And, Phil was like, You don't have to be grateful You don't have to express gratitude if you're not feeling grateful. And I feel like
Aaron: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Maia: Of all of this. as far as our measurements of success,
Michaela: Yeah. struggling with gratitude.
Maya, thank you. Mm-hmm. This is really a very honest conversation that I think is helpful 'cause this is a reality and sometimes you have to be like, man, this sucks, this is hard. I can be grateful another day and reframe this to keep going and survive. Mm-hmm. But today I can kick and [00:39:00] scream and be like, this is fucking hard and I'm drowning.
Aaron: I could do that more.
Michaela: Yeah. Also what you, said to your husband of like, I can't be your cheerleader right now. 'cause like I'm barely hanging on down here is helpful. Like last summer I was pregnant and went and taught at a camp and Aaron was solo parenting for a week and I messed up the camp dates and he had a session here and he took her to camp.
And camp wasn't happening. There
Aaron: was nobody there. I showed up and it was, nothing happening.
I was like, God.
and somebody was showing up in my studio in like 20 minutes. Yeah. I'm like,
Michaela: okay, major mess up on my part. Georgia was like hard to handle. She was also really missing me, which was painful and we barely talked that week and I knew enough to not poke at it.
And Aaron at one point was like, Hey, I am not mad at you. I'm just trying to survive. Can we talk like when you're home, obviously check in when we need to, but like we don't need to rehash each day. And I was like, awesome. And it was a moment that I was like, we. Are killing it with this growth.
Maia: Mm.
Michaela: It's not always [00:40:00] like that, but I
Aaron: felt the same way.
Maia: Oh,
that's I, I do. In retrospect, in the moment I was like, this fucking sucks. It was more like loony tunes. Like, don't look down. If I look down, I'm gonna fall. I'm
Aaron: okay right now.
Maia: No,
Aaron: just keep going. Yep.
Maia: running in the
Aaron: Just don't stop. Yep. Just don't stop.
Maia: Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron: you know, when McKayla's been traveling alone, you know, there's days it's just like, we can't FaceTime today.
Like everything's fine. If you show up on FaceTime, it's just gonna be chaos and tears about hours. It's gonna be meltdown. Yeah. I'll send you a picture later, like, everything's cool.
Maia: yeah.
Michaela: Yeah.
Maia: Something that I learned with my mom on this tour, which was kind of like a breakthrough for me, I hadn't FaceTimed with Petra.
I was concerned about FaceTime. 'cause I thought if she saw me, she would feel my absence and it would everything a lot worse. I was taking videos. Sending it was like stuff that I was posting on Instagram.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: Would show her the video that she could watch over and over, and then they would [00:41:00] send me videos something about that
Michaela: easier. Mm-hmm.
Maia: I think, easier for Petra
Michaela: Yeah.
Maia: to like understand what was happening, what she was seeing, and the fact that she could watch it again and again and they could talk about it and Mm-hmm. the video.
Aaron: Yep. We've done that we're lucky that Mikayla is a public facing person. ' we can
Just find her on the internet, yeah, right.
every couple has her own thing. We share our location with
each other on our phones, which like came from prior to kids.
during the pandemic, we basically turned her, touring van into a camper van I like to say we like, oh, traveled through all the national parks on the Western United States and like went biking and all that. But basically we like booked a tour without playing shows.
And we were like, every night we were in a different place, but we ended up. Randomly and Telluride and Mikayla was seeing a friend, I was like, I'm gonna go bike. This is awesome. And she's like, share your location 'cause you're about to get on a chairlift to like 11,000 feet and ride a bike. And I'm like, okay, cool.
Once you open that can of worms with your significant other, you can't like not share your location with them, you know? [00:42:00] So it's, kind of like a one-way door
with that.
Yeah.
Maia: yes,
Aaron: which is why I'm like giving this asterisk, like if you do, choose that, that's right. Because you can't go back if you unshare.
That's like a whole other can of worms. Yeah. But because we do that, what I've taken to doing with Georgia when, Mikayla's gone she's like, Hey, where's mom? And we'll look at the dot
and it shows like her dot on a map. And if she's driving, like it's moving she might ask like, oh, let's FaceTime her.
And I'm like, well, she's driving. Let's talk about where she is. Like, oh look, she's in Boulder, Colorado. Look at these mountains. You know, and then we'll talk about like where she, so it's like.
the dot, like blinks you can like, interact with her without actually interacting with her.
Maia: that's
Aaron: another little hack for those stay behind parents.
Michaela: Yeah. that.
We do have to wrap up, we have like two questions we usually ask, but I have a, different question. we usually we ask a question about like your younger self or whatever, but because right now is a moment that you shared as like feels chaotic and challenging.
I'm curious if you can imagine fast forwarding through life when you're in your seventies and [00:43:00] looking back on this time, what do you think you could tell yourself that would provide some solace and comfort?
Maia: this really connects with a mental game that I've been playing with myself. I mean, It's sort of like what you were talking about, like the good old days. reminiscing about the past, but like we are, currently in the past
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: a future self. I get into this mode where everything has urgency.
Like everything I do, I just feel like I'm really rushing. I haven't been enjoying myself. I don't think I've been allowing myself to enjoy anything much
cause I feel like I don't have time to or something. I mean I think I could imagine my 70-year-old self telling me like slow down, oh,
So hard to do, but to just. I'm gonna wanna slow down and absorb what's
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: In my life right now. I'm really struggling to do that.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: Think especially with [00:44:00] Petra, there's something, people always say this thing and it drives me,
really crazy oh, this is like a multi-pronged answer, but I'll be on the street with Petra struggling. Like she's learning how to run.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: She wants to run everywhere right now.
And I, I let her, you know, right, like, we have to go somewhere. I'll let her run a couple blocks, but then like. if she doesn't get in the stroller, we're never gonna get there. It's just not gonna happen. And we need to do it, and we just
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: she hates getting in the stroller and she's a And I'm trying to buckle her in and I'm sweating,
Michaela: Yep.
Maia: a And this woman walks by and is like, every
Michaela: know,
Maia: of it. It goes
Michaela: I know.
Maia: so fast. And I'm like, fuck you, you fucking your
Aaron: Yeah,
Maia: You know,
it's just like,
Aaron: yeah.
Maia: dare you say that to me? And, but of course, you know, I'm just like,
Aaron: Nama, stay the fuck away from him.
Maia: Oh, I just get that so much. I get that all the time.
Aaron: Yeah.
Maia: it's so hard I mean, right. [00:45:00] It's like this gratitude
Michaela: present.
Maia: present. Amidst the struggle. And I keep thinking like, why do they say this? I think the first few months of infancy of the newborn. I, I barely remember any of it.
Michaela: Right.
Maia: so much I don't remember Right. Our memory, it's like selectively trimming away what we don't need so that we keep wanting to procreate. I mean, we're like,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Maia: so coming back to that idea, which is, I know that Petra is growing I'm just trying to be present and not worry so much and allow myself to experience my wins and reframe what that means.
Michaela: Yeah.
Maia: I think I would just tell me to chill the fuck out
perfect ending. Yeah.
Aaron: I feel that. Well, Maya, thank you for making time. Thank you. And like, also just for being so real and open Yeah. And generous with sharing your experiences with us.
Maia: Thanks for. Opening the door for
Michaela: Yeah.
Maia: And [00:46:00] I, there's like a part of me that always just wants to be like so cheery. Like, There's
Michaela: Wow.
Maia: girlfriend or like you know, it's like
Michaela: Yeah.
Maia: trying to be the perfect
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Maia: I just can't do it
Aaron: That's what social media's for. Yeah.
Michaela: That's not what, this is for
though. Yeah. This is the real talk.
Maia: But I'm trying to do that on social media too, and I'm like, I have to like let it out even more. 'cause I don't think it's coming across as me struggling.
Michaela: show the struggle more.
Aaron: show the real.
Michaela: Yeah. You know?
Maia: Mikayla, happy birthday.
Michaela: Thank you.
Aaron: Thanks again. It was so great to see you
and so great to get to chat for a while
Maia: have a great rest of your day. We'll, We'll
Michaela: talk. So nice to see you.
We'll
Aaron: talk with you soon.
Michaela: Okay,
Maia: Bye bye.
Bye.