Malin Pettersen is a Norwegian singer-songwriter and Spellemannprisen winner (Norwegian Grammy), who has released multiple solo records as well as records with her band, Lucky Lips, has toured extensively throughout Europe and America, and has been acclaimed by Rolling Stone, Forbes, No Depression, Paste and even Iris Dement is a fan. We talk with Malin about the illusion of success, cultural duality between Norway and America, the Norwegian government's support for artists, embracing uncertainty, doubt, and struggle, and so much more.
Malin Pettersen is a Norwegian singer-songwriter and Spellemannprisen winner (Norwegian Grammy), who has released multiple solo records as well as records with her band, Lucky Lips, has toured extensively throughout Europe and America, and has been acclaimed by Rolling Stone, Forbes, No Depression, Paste and even Iris Dement is a fan. We talk with Malin about the illusion of success, cultural duality between Norway and America, the Norwegian government's support for artists, embracing uncertainty, doubt, and struggle, and so much more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:19] Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 130, and this week we're featuring our conversation from the Norwegian singer songwriter Malin Pettersen. I apologize if I butchered your last name.
[00:00:34] Aaron: It's okay. 'cause I'm about to butcher the next word here, which is that, she is the winner of the equivalent of the Norwegian Grammy, which is the SP Prien Award.
[00:00:45] Michaela: It's not bad, right? I, I mean,
[00:00:46] Malin: Spell.
[00:00:48] Michaela: we are really bad at Norwegian words.
[00:00:51] Aaron: This comes up at the end of the conversation. If you need a good laugh, just stick it out. It's in there. But on top of that, being Norwegian Maan probably knows more people in Nashville than I do, and has a presence here in America. And she's been heralded by Rolling Stone Country, Forbes, no depression, paste, and can claim the incredible Iris Dement as a fan.
[00:01:08] Michaela: she's in the middle of an album cycle, which I know we often say. We like to talk to people outside of the album cycles. Come
[00:01:14] Aaron: to find out it's hard to get publicists to pitch artists that aren't paying them to be publicists at the time. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Figure.
[00:01:21] Michaela: But it's always a good entry point to talk about the emotional rollercoaster that is an album cycle.
And we talked about that as well as, her marketing mind versus her creative mind and consulting both and kind of putting on different hats as well as accepting the artist inside as a core persona and really accepting that she's an artist, but that might be. Outside of music and how that is fluid within all the different ways we can express.
We also got to talk about some specifically Norwegian aspects of being an artist, what it is to be an artist operating in that country, culturally, what type of government support and how that changes how we operate our careers.
[00:02:02] Aaron: And as always with our conversations, there are topics that we, topics that we touch on and questions that we ask that come as direct suggestions from all of our subscribers on Patreon, they get advanced notice of our guests.
well as having the great depth and satisfaction of financially supporting the production of this show, which gets no funding elsewhere. So if you would like to help support the production of this, you would like to ask some of our upcoming guests some questions. There is a link to our Patreon below in the.
[00:02:33] Michaela: And if you're a visual person, this conversation and all of our other conversations are available on YouTube. So without further ado, here is our conversation with Mullin Petterson.
so good to see you.
You too. It's great to see you too. And Malin, I feel like the first time I met you, which was so long ago, at this point I like immediately asked you about being a mom because I think your album cover, you were pregnant on it,
[00:02:58] Malin: the band that I'm in. Lucky Lips. I think Yeah. The cover and some promo
[00:03:01] Michaela: mm-hmm.
[00:03:02] Malin: huge belly.
[00:03:03] Michaela: Yeah. So you've long been an inspiration, but we don't have to talk about motherhood right away.
[00:03:07] Aaron: the back, well, let's start with the backstory. You guys met in Norway?
[00:03:11] Michaela: yes. there's this beautiful community of Norwegian artists, is the name Nordic Canna?
[00:03:16] Malin: that's what just some people have coined it. Okay. So Norwegian artists who make music that can overlap with the Americana country genres. And there's this beautiful exchange between this Norwegian community and the American community of musicians. So we met a long time ago when I was on tour in Norway, and we've since.
[00:03:38] Michaela: Spent so much time together with you coming here to Nashville, us coming back to Norway several times. I feel like
[00:03:45] Aaron: you know more people in Nashville than I do.
[00:03:46] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:03:49] Malin: People are very open open and natural. It's awesome.
[00:03:51] Michaela: You are also very open. Mm-hmm. that's a big thing. But you and I have spent a lot of time together
So we're so excited to have you even, regardless of our personal relationship just given the nature of the conversations we like to have, because you are someone who's very open about all that it is to be an artist in today's world while also being very protective and boundaried with your personal life.
So we always kinda like to start with just, how are you today and where are you physically and, creatively.
[00:04:22] Malin: I would say that today is quite a good day. I am in the middle of like an album cycle release thing, so I have a lot of stuff to do, which is stressful, but still probably the point in time where I'm doing the best mentally. And right now I'm just at my mom's house, so I don't have any of my work here, which I can feel is just making me a little bit more relaxed.
but yeah, so these days and today is just sending out emails, trying to figure out how to reach people about shows that I'm doing, and for the first time in a long time, just that this is my job, my work, and that I get to do that job, which is a really nice feeling blended with, of course, like frustration about everything that's going on in the world.
Yeah.
[00:05:09] Michaela: Beautiful. So in this kind of, you said the place where I'm, still mentally feeling good. Is there a place that you're anticipating?
[00:05:21] Malin: Ah, you, you know this too well. Yeah. there's always, and I don't know if I'm better at it, but I keep telling myself that I'm better, more robust now when it comes to the, the downfall that comes after a time, like an album cycle or a tour or something like that. so I'm trying to not burn the fuse in both ends.
So I'm trying to be very like, constructive with the work that I do. I try to be a little bit strict with myself when it comes to the work that I have to do and the work that I just of should do and should do if I have more capacity.
And that has helped me to not go into like totally overdrive mode and try to do everything all at once, but try to really look at like what could actually sell tickets or what could actually maybe drive, people to click on that link to hear the music instead of doing like, just a bunch of things and not really having a plan for it and just hoping that something sticks.
And that's helping me feel more constructive. I'm more proud of myself for the work that I do and it also doesn't bother me as much if things doesn't really work out. 'cause then I'll be like, okay, but I had a plan and okay, that didn't really work, but then I, maybe I can try it in a different way. And I think that also hopefully maybe will help when the album it's out but I'm starting the tour now and when that's over, Christmas is gonna come around, which I love. And I'm just hoping that I'll have these small things that I can keep busy with that won't send me into like the down spiraling loop of depression when
[00:06:53] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, That's a real thing. The, come down and the oh what's, next.
[00:06:59] Malin: Yeah.
[00:07:00] Aaron: We had a recent guest named Dave House who is from Philadelphia, and he kind of comes more from like the punk scene. And he was talking about it, about really like the value of anticipation in what we do and how, like the anticipation is what it is.
It's you write this song and there's all this excitement and anticipation of like, Ooh, what's it gonna sound like when I record it? And there's all this anticipation of like, ooh like, what's the album cover gonna look like? what else is on the record? And they're like, Ooh, it's gonna come out.
and then it comes out and you're like now what? Okay. Yeah.
[00:07:27] Malin: Yeah. It's like doing a show where you just do one song and you get off stage and you're like I'm done now
[00:07:32] Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:07:33] Malin: just gonna watch the rest of the show. What do you mean? Um, Yeah, I think that's a very real thing. And, this year I, I don't really know how that happened, but I recorded this album in January, which was a very good way for me to start the year.
I've released a couple of things, but it's been quite a slow period of time playing wise. So I recorded the album in January, which made me feel really good. I was like, oh my God. I have an album and it's just like the beginning of the year. And then I had all this work to do through the year and through the summer, and I wasn't really worried about not playing a lot of shows.
I was like, well that's because I'm working on this now. And then after that the shows will come and now I've just always the album and I'm going on tour and I'm like, oh my God. This year really worked out really nicely for my head
[00:08:20] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:21] Malin: like the next thing to do. But of course that cannot last forever.
myself for, when the last show date is done. I'm trying to like put up dates with my friends and like planning stuff that I know that I will have nice things to do that can like feed my mental health in other ways.
[00:08:43] Michaela: Yeah, I feel like there's that balance because there's like one, the anticipation of like, you created this project you did the writing, you did the recording, and it's all such an endeavor. And then we hold this anticipation and also expectations of what it's gonna mean, how it's gonna translate outside of us to create more opportunity to play and all that stuff can be like also very pure of like, I wanna put this record out so I can like play more shows because I love playing shows and I want to connect more and.
the challenge to me is the balancing of the letdown of it's over. And being like, okay, now what's next? And I gotta do it all again. what an endeavor that feels like. But when it feels more like an endeavor because the emphasis is on the career and what you need to do to like keep putting stuff out for the career versus the creative process.
[00:09:38] Malin: Yes, I totally agree. And I feel like for me, probably during COVID, that was like the biggest thing from my head mentally, I think I'd already started thinking about it, but that really gave me time to think. And just like changing the perspective I didn't start out that way, but I think when you work with this, You start out thinking about and focusing on the creative side and the joy that it brings and all of the fun projects you're gonna do. And then when you get into the projects. The further you get into them and you start thinking about the next one, the focus starts shifting towards what's the world gonna think?
Like, Is this a smart thing to do? Is are people gonna like this? What's the best next move, who should I work with? Blah, blah, blah. without even noticing that, joyful and fun reason why you started doing what you do can like get in the background a little bit. So I think through COVID when I was like hanging out with my kids a lot and really thinking about what my focus and my values and life or I decided to like really be more conscious about what my focus should be throughout the whole process.
Like all the way to the end. And instead of being, you know, at a show being like, oh, it has to be perfect. I've shifted that to like, I'm going to have as much fun as I possibly can. I'm going to work with the people who bring me joy and who I can, have fun with and that I get along with and have chemistry with.
And, that has given me a different way of looking at like an album release cycle. going to be goals that are more about what's smart or what do we have to do to like, get this out there or sell tickets or blah, blah, blah. But want that to be the reason I make music or why I send that email.
I want to go on an adventure. I want to go to this place because that means we can drive in our van and have like the best time.
[00:11:29] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:30] Malin: To have that be the focus. And of course. That's difficult because I won't underestimate the value of having enough money to pay your bills, having enough to pay your musicians, and all of that, which is super difficult.
[00:11:45] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:46] Malin: Um, so it's, kind of like a blend of a lot of different focuses, but always having the creativity be the source of it all.
[00:11:54] Aaron: Yeah, The way I like to put it is like that's the only part of the whole process that's actually in our control. The rest is kind of just like picking out a boat and like letting it set sail, and hoping that it gets to where it needs to go, but it's gonna end up somewhere.
[00:12:06] Malin: for me, I can only speak for myself, but I make little money doing this that I have to have fun. genuine like reason why I started doing this has to be the thing that runs through it all.
I have to do it with people. I love people who like to make music with me.
It has to be true. It has to be real. It has to be real connections because if not, then it's just not worth it because it takes away, so stressful and tiresome and all of those
[00:12:32] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:12:33] Malin: to be a genuine connection in there with both the art and the people and yourself,
[00:12:38] Michaela: yeah. the last several years, I think it was the record after my first record that I put out, supposedly post COVID. And it just wasn't fun. Mm.
[00:12:49] Malin: Yeah.
[00:12:49] Michaela: felt so stressful. there wasn't much joy in it, and that's what. Now I'm about to enter into a new record and like I'm crowdfunding for it because I am out of my record deal cause I wanna own my own masters again.
And, every time I get pulled into my habit of stress, anxiety,
I'm like why nobody's making me do this? it would be so much easier to not do this. So if I'm gonna choose to do this, why not have it be fun? And, also I'm curious how you feel about this, but now that we have two kids I learn every day how my choices in life and then how I choose to interact and behave and feel about those choices, impacts so many more people than just myself or even like. starting grad school the first couple of weeks I had this deep anxiety and like it kept coming up of like, I have to go do my reading. And then after a while I was like, wait, why am I doing this? And if for two years this is how it's gonna be for my family, this is not gonna be okay. how we operate impacts our loved ones.
[00:13:59] Malin: Yeah.
[00:14:00] Michaela: So it's just like such a helpful reminder of like, why do I need to be anxious about this? Because regardless of what happens with this record, this experience is gonna be what it is. And this is within my control of deciding is this gonna be joyful or not? While anticipating what's coming.
[00:14:20] Malin: yeah. I totally agree. I feel lucky to have people who I love and who love me back and who kind of make me set boundaries and make me also find I know that that can be difficult don't know how you guys feel about this, but I struggle also with like, on one end, I don't think I could do anything else. I mean, I've wanted to quit so many times.
this is my last album. I'm never going to release anything again. I'm over and done with it.
I'm going to do something completely different and just write songs for me nobody's ever going to hear them
but I haven't been able to quit. I can't explain why or how it's just there never going to be over. on the other hand, I also in one way need to look at it, at least certain aspects of it in like a professional matter so that I don't sell myself short, so that I am able to tell myself that like, doing this work, the emails, going out, talking to people, like doing all of the extra stuff, that's not the stage stuff.
That's also important and that I am the only one who's going to do that. I'm the only one who can like, push those buttons or those people to go out and help create some kind of like possibility or get the music out there or person who has to write those songs.
[00:15:35] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:36] Malin: And like with social media, I feel like that, Conflict, is very obvious to me when it comes to social media. ' one hand, I'm like, it's a great opportunity to like show people my music and my art and like do whatever I want to do, do, do, do. But on the other hand, I'm like. I don't want to be pushing my face out there.
[00:15:53] Aaron: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:15:55] Malin: Oh my God, here it goes.
Like, Okay, people listen to this, reviews, look at this, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, Malin, it's very important that you do this. It's a very important free tool that you can use. And it's all just like,
[00:16:08] Aaron: mm-hmm.
[00:16:08] Malin: so that conflict is that I find is both a good thing. I tell myself, when my kids come home from school, I'm like, close the laptop.
I'm like, I'm done for today. I'm done at the office. And it feels really nice
[00:16:21] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:21] Malin: those boundaries,
but at the same time, I'm like, ah, art is so important. I just wanna do it. I don't, Care if people know who I am, but I'm like they have to know who I am if I'm going to be able to pay the bills.
[00:16:33] Aaron: Right, exactly. That's, I mean, that's the thing. It's like people don't have to know who you are to make art or to make records or to release records. You can do all those, and nobody needs to know who you are to be able to afford to do it for a living. And I say that not in the sense of like an ego sense of like, Ooh, I make my money
making music.
But like, when you are able to make a living from making art you inherently don't have other things vying for your time so you can spend more time making your art. And that, necessitates needing people to pay attention. Which like, I wonder if this is a, thing for you, or if I have just greatly like, misunderstood this in translation, but in some of the many hours of conversation I've had with Tour a mutual friend, darling West is another amazing Norwegian band But Tour was talking about Norwegian mentality, philosophy, just about like putting yourself out there or like seeming conceited. I can't remember, we were specifically talking about the music industry or just existing in the world.
Is that something that you bump up against with having to be a, public figure?
Like both within yourself and then like within your community? How does that reflect in the music industry?
[00:17:38] Malin: I think so. I think a lot of people in Norway, probably a lot of other places too, but in Norway a thing. We have a name for it. Yo, It is a thing, and I think you can feel a little strange when you have to like push your face out there all the time.
And the people who follow me are like my friends and family. I'm like, I'm sorry, you have to see my face again for the 27th time and 24 hours. I'm just trying to reach some new people.
so, yeah, I think so, and I also think this is more from my personal experience in life. I've always been outgoing.
I'm not necessarily like an extroverted person, but I'm, I've always talked a lot and it's probably like a little defense mechanism. I just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that also makes me feel a little shameful because when I'm like, Hey people, this is fun. Like, Look, I'm doing this, do do do. for me, it's not, look at me.
I am amazing. You should all care about what I do. It's just a way of. excited about something and I wanna hear about other people's things and I'm, I'm just throwing it out there and then afterwards I can get very shameful and like, oh my God, people probably think that I'm like that. I love myself a lot, which, isn't a bad thing to love yourself,
[00:18:49] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:18:50] Malin: I mean,
Sometimes I can feel like maybe I'm taking up too much space
also with like social media sometimes, you'll see people trying to break through within like the social media sphere.
And for me, sometimes I can feel like it's that I'm trying something to like try and break through mess of social media. And I can also feel like shameful about that. Like, Oh no, people can see me using that or doing this and they see right through me and that I'm trying to like do this thing to get more.
Clicks or likes or, but I'm just trying to get by. I am like, the baseline is I just want the industry to be more fair
[00:19:25] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:26] Malin: wouldn't have to, things
Yeah, I mean inherently uncomfortable to put yourself out there, regardless. Like we were just talking about it yesterday about just like, hearing your own voice on a video. especially when we were talking about like seeing a video of you, like talking to your babies a baby, or you know, and you're like, oh, that's what I sound like.
yeah,
[00:19:43] Aaron: I mean,
my kid loves it, but man, that's annoying
[00:19:46] Malin: yeah.
[00:19:47] Aaron: and embarrassing.
[00:19:48] Malin: Oh.
[00:19:49] Michaela: Yeah. And I think this comes up a lot because it's important being a social media promoter and your level of comfort and ability with it is a separate. Thing from being an artist. And I think given the nature of the industry and the emphasis on the different platforms, we can confuse the two a lot as artists.
I just saw Lily Hyatt posted on threads like I just wrote this song that I really loved and was excited about, and then I put it on TikTok and it didn't get that many likes. So all of a sudden I second guessed it and she followed up with, we need to stop doing this to ourselves, this outside sourcing, can't be the thing that.
Informs how we feel about our art. You have to kind of compartmentalize because yes, you need to run a business and be a business person and also separate how that informs your feeling of worth or love for what you make, which is, really difficult, which is why we have these conversations over and over and over
again.
[00:20:55] Malin: yeah. No I, I totally
[00:20:57] Michaela: I totally think
[00:20:57] Malin: for me that's, I can't remember how many years ago it was probably also during COVID. because I was hating social media and really hating to post there, I was like, I either have to quit it.
I have to make some kind of shift to make it not be as important for me so that I can keep doing it and not, be really disappointed if somebody doesn't like a song or if something that I thought people would love is not getting as big of a reach as I hoped it was going to have.
And so I started, this is easier on the good days and more difficult on the bad days, I really started to think that if I am going to post something, it's going to have to be something that I really do that, don't know, like, or that I am proud of or that I feel good about.
So that if it doesn't get as many likes, I won't take it as a sign of like less quality. But then I will think either, you know, the right people who are like me, didn't see it. The people it would resonate with, didn't see it. And that's fine. Like, I'll try again.
Or maybe this is just something that I'm thinking about and that other people are not as concerned with, and that's also fine. Like I can't control that. And if it's a song, I try to think that there's a bunch of songs that I love that are not hits or that are not classics, that are not even like cult classics that probably like a handful of people really love.
[00:22:21] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:22] Malin: Those songs are still very important to me.
[00:22:24] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:24] Malin: And if I could write a song like that, that could, make a connection with one other person or just that it makes a connection for me that I feel like I got, I said something in the way that I wanted to say it, I got it off my chest. Then that song.
Has value. That song is an important piece of art. Even if nobody saw that video,
it should have same value to me as before I posted it. And that's a lot easier to say than it is to think in the moment. I, really try very hard think like that, even though I don't always succeed just like Lily Hyatt,
[00:22:59] Michaela: Well, also if you think about, you said if, the person who's like me out there who I think would like this because I like it, doesn't see it. If you don't love being on social media, the person that's out there that's like you and likes the things that you like might not be on social media.
[00:23:15] Malin: That's a very fair point. And And I also think I don't know, I might be wrong. So anybody who's a lot older than Meena has done it. for a longer time might arrest me on this. But back, in the day, you would record something and you would release that track or that single or that record and you would go on a tour and those would be like the measuring points to
[00:23:36] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:37] Malin: successful you were or if you could make a living or not.
[00:23:41] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:41] Malin: But today we have these measuring points every day, Mm-hmm. the time on social media and also the recordings and the singles going out to streaming services. And every day you have a possibility to be like, am I successful now? Do people like me now?
[00:23:57] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:23:57] Malin: they did today, but they want tomorrow. You know, I go up and down and all the time and you're like, ah, but you said you loved me people, and now you don't.
How could
[00:24:05] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:24:06] Malin: change so fast? And I think that that messes with your mind and your head. And just like she said, Lily Hyatt, I think also that it's very important to try to keep one part of my brain very focused on the side. And then I try to put myself in, a marketing person kind of mind when I do the social media things, but I always have like a conversation with the creative side and be like, Hey, what does the creative person want to say today? I'm like, oh, I want to say this. I want to do, and then the marketing person takes over and it's like, okay, how can I wrap that into a caption or an image or something that will like convey what you want to say or feel and if people don't like it, if it doesn't work out, it's not the creative side's fault,
it might be that the marketing person didn't convey it in a way that was easy for people to or maybe just like that creative thing was more for you.
Malin. There are not a lot of people ever,
I try to not make it like ruin side of my mind too much.
[00:25:10] Aaron: Yeah. I love that. Of, of tapping both and being able to kind of separate, to be able to see social media as a marketing tool, which is exclusively what it is. basically everything I see an advertisement in some way or another, whether it's like an actual ad or somebody had to like, pay for it to actually be seen by people.
[00:25:26] Malin: Yeah,
[00:25:27] Michaela: I think of the people who are on there, whether they're artists or even like, therapists or people doing like spiritual or soul work. even if they're coming from a very pure, helpful place of service, to have a big platform, they have to, whether they do it themselves or have somebody else have marketing and branding
of this thing that is supposed to be soul work.
And that's where some people are much better at just coming to terms with that and being like, yeah, that's what this is. And other people have More of a block. I definitely have a block. Like, it is such a separation. Someone might have just as great of messaging and parenting advice as Dr.
Becky, but they might not have as good of a marketing team and branding and presentation as
Dr. Becky.
[00:26:22] Aaron: I think like the key word there is team.
[00:26:25] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:26:25] Aaron: back when the recording music industry became a thing in the late fifties, in the sixties, like when it really took off, there were teams of people, there was a marketing team, there was, you know, and it was like there a and r was, they'd be like, these are the songs that you're recording for your record.
These would be great and this is the arrangement that you're going to use for your song. And this is the photo that we're gonna use on the cover and this is how we're gonna market it. And you're like. Okay. you know, and this is where you're going on tour, and you're like, okay. And you go, and sang the songs and you perform the songs.
know, and now it's the blessing and the curse because now we have the ability, like the two of you, you can write your own songs, you can envision in them, you can lead the recordings yourself. You pick the artwork, you pick the approach. everything.
I know Malin that you, you have a label, but you have the ability to put whatever you want out in the world whenever you want. And the unfortunate side of that is that like it's on you or it's more directly apparent how much of your own money you need to spend to have somebody else do it for you.
Yeah.
[00:27:23] Malin: yeah, yeah, It's a very interesting place and time that we are existing in and releasing music within.
[00:27:33] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:33] Malin: Feel very lucky on one side for the artists to have, you know, if you grew up in a tiny, tiny town, you still have the possibility to record yourself with a phone and put it out there
[00:27:45] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:45] Malin: internet for people to hear.
That's incredible. It means that you don't have to have a lot of money to at least get your art out there, which is very democratic
[00:27:55] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:56] Malin: incredible. But on the other hand, to take that further, the industry is not very democratic. There is so much money that you would have to have because the whole industry has like gotten so much smaller when it comes to journalists, PR people.
All the venues are struggling, they have to be more, cautious about their bookings. And like, everybody's struggling and people are firing journalists and it's just making everything more difficult for everybody. So to reach through to that next level is a lot more difficult.
but the, the fact that like, social media is amazing, at a certain time, it's also like, okay, so what's next?
[00:28:34] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:28:34] Malin: I'm not saying that this is what everybody should get 'cause it sounds like I'm out for like freebies, but I think a lot of artists, if you gave them here's a way to record your album, own the masters.
it in a way that will. in money and
[00:28:47] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:48] Malin: pay for the music. And these are all the places you can go tour. they will afford to give you a pay. That's fair. and also like anyone have to think about social media, like everything would be just fine.
I think a lot of people will be like, thank you. 'cause It's not that I want to be some person, it's just I just want to be able to do my work and have income that reflects the work that I do and the people who want to my product,
[00:29:14] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:29:15] Malin: way of saying it,
[00:29:16] Michaela: Yeah. you know what
[00:29:17] Aaron: I mean,
[00:29:17] Michaela: can you talk a little bit about how being a Norwegian artist because I think of like, as an American artist, the kind of main focus is the American market, then next we're looking at coming to Europe and the uk, but on this indie level.
In, our world, we're not looking at going to Asia as often. We're not looking at South America. Like There's these kind of two markets and industries.
[00:29:42] Aaron: Yeah, there's kinda like America and Canada.
[00:29:44] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:45] Aaron: Like, people are like, I need to play in Vancouver and Toronto.
[00:29:47] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:47] Aaron: Maybe I'll go to a couple others.
[00:29:49] Michaela: Yeah. And even in Europe and in the kind of Americana world, it's like. Less likely to go to, Greece for instance, or Italy. and that's the nature of like the promoters and the booking agencies and the label support of like Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands and the uk and Spain is much more common than Italy, for instance.
As a Norwegian, how does that look for you guys? because Norway is such a small country and if you can mix in like how the government and culture supports independent artists as well.
[00:30:21] Malin: I would say that for at least pop artists in Norway Asia has been quite big market. I wouldn't say that a lot of people are like minted big there, but we've had some big. Artists go very popular in Asia. I'm not sure why that connection has been made as, compared to other, like South America I don't
[00:30:44] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:45] Malin: big. And also of course, Europe, Germany has always been a big for at least pop artists.
[00:30:52] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:52] Malin: Think for the, Americana country scene we've probably always been a little US focused
[00:30:59] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:00] Malin: us that's like, we grow up being like, oh my God,
[00:31:02] Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:31:04] Malin: grail
[00:31:04] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:05] Malin: but I think people at least I can only speak for my community and the people that I talk to on a general basis.
We are looking more and more towards the European market as well. It's been a little bit more difficult getting into the European market maybe because we're not as. Exotic as we are when we go over to the US it's just like, oh, you're just from other, European country. It
[00:31:25] Malin: and Sweden have their own like huge industry, so they don't really need Norwegians. but I think a lot, at least a lot of my friends and my colleagues are looking into like the Netherlands, Germany, England, Sweden and Denmark and like trying do more work there. It's more time efficient. It's easier, it's shorter travel
[00:31:47] Michaela: Yep.
[00:31:47] Malin: and have the US be more of like an adventure that we go on every now and then if we can afford it.
[00:31:53] Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:31:55] Malin: And uh, we also have, you know, grants that we can apply for, which is incredible. And I know that a lot of countries don't have that in the same way.
[00:32:05] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:05] Malin: Can apply for money to record albums to go on tours. to publish our music. There's a lot of different grants that you can apply for, though the bulk of money is getting smaller and smaller because they're cutting down on those budgets,
[00:32:20] Malin: as well as I guess they are all over the
but at least that's been, I think that's been a very important for the Norwegian music industry because it has given people as we talked about earlier, people who have maybe posted things on social media and they have gotten some interest and they're like, but how do I record an album?
Like, how do I do this? And then they have been able to either attend like workshops open meetings and apply for money. We have a lot of organ organizations that work to help them maneuver the industry. And I think that's very good
[00:32:52] Aaron: is it common for people to go to those workshops and to participate,
[00:32:56] Malin: yeah, absolutely. and it also helps with the community people feel like they are a part of something and that other people are struggling like them. and I don't wanna make it sound like it's all a struggle,
[00:33:08] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:33:09] Malin: but any job can be stressful and So I think it's just good meeting other colleagues and seeing that people are, you know, having the same difficulties. Like, how do you write this application? Like, I can't understand how, or
where, do you go touring and how do you do it? And how much does it cost? how should I do that?
[00:33:26] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:27] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:27] Malin: To meet each other and have those conversations.
[00:33:29] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. 'cause it's constantly shifting, things are constantly changing. So like, what worked
two or three years ago You know, things are changing so fast, it probably doesn't work very well now.
in talking about like the US being a holy grail and traveling like, I just kind of wanna get the temperature on how it is there, because speaking of community Jensen died with your boots like there, that's such a strong community of like incredible songwriters that.
Are pulling on like Americana music, country music like, in essence to dumb it all down, but like American music. And so, like, I can imagine that coming here is a holy grail and I think we'd be remiss to not talk about how insanely crazy it is here right now, especially with getting visas and coming here as a foreigner.
You know,
[00:34:09] Malin: Yeah.
[00:34:10] Aaron: flight as a recent guest, the British band, and they had a tour booked in the states selling like decent sized rooms, 500, 600 cap rooms, they were making money.
these American venues, American businesses were making money and the government denied their visa.
And so what's the conversation happening over there with you guys?
[00:34:29] Malin: there are a lot of, least just from the people that I talk with there are a lot of like question marks, a lot of, do we still do what we have originally planned? Is it to make plans to go there? Do we want to go there? And also just like the uncertainty about if you'll get into the country and what will happen when you're there.
will you be able to, I mean, I don't, sounds so dramatic, but like, will you. get out if something happens?
[00:34:57] Michaela: I mean, it's dramatic, but it's also valid questions. Valid?
Yeah.
[00:35:02] Malin: I think at least I am a very privileged person living in a very rich country where as a white person living in a middle class, community growing up, middle class, things have been easy not as to say that I haven't had struggles or anything, but with stuff like that, like I've never had to think about will the cops search me?
Will I
[00:35:23] Michaela: Right.
[00:35:23] Malin: doing da, da da? And so I think a lot of people not used to, when they think about traveling to other countries that they have normally been able to just travel back and forth. And it's been all good
[00:35:34] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:35] Malin: have to think about like, oh, but can I a person?
[00:35:38] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:39] Malin: Can be like, Singled
[00:35:40] Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:35:41] Malin: have questions like, can they take away, my
[00:35:43] Michaela: Will they look at my social media? Yeah.
[00:35:46] Malin: exactly. Mm-hmm. I don't know how that would be.
[00:35:50] Aaron: Yeah. Uh,
Yeah.
[00:35:52] Malin: for me, it's a positive thing that this is happening to people such as myself
[00:35:58] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:59] Malin: makes us open our eyes and realize how the world is put together.
And that it's also, our concern because a lot of people have been living with this uncertainty their whole lives,
[00:36:10] Michaela: Exactly.
[00:36:11] Malin: In, all corners of the world. it's now to a lot of. Countries that spread to Europe I just think it's so important that we open our eyes see that this is something that we all have to, have conversations about this.
We should try and figure out what our meanings are, how we feel about it all happening, try to communicate about it so that we can try to, pull the world in the direction that we want it to be pulled in.
[00:36:38] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:39] Malin: And so for me, this is just,
such a big part of the world has been so privileged for so long. It's just so sad that it has taken this for us to what's going on,
And it's become so strong
I just hope it's not too late. And I always believe can, can be better if we are willing to do the work.
[00:36:57] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:36:57] Aaron: Yeah. To have the conversations to see things through a different paradigm and a different lens,
[00:37:03] Malin: And also listen to each other, you know, have mm-hmm. with people who we are not necessarily agreeing with. And of course, we're always going to try and like in a discussion, have good points or blah, blah, blah. But I think it's also important to try and understand why the other person thinking the way that they
[00:37:19] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:19] Malin: because I think that that's when we can try and meet each other and figure out like, oh, I didn't know that you had experience this thing, which explains to me why you're seeing this thing from a different perspective than I am. Doesn't mean that we're gonna agree at a certain point, but it means that at least now we understand why people can have these opinions and try and. In a different way or with different points
[00:37:44] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:44] Malin: arguments maybe.
[00:37:45] Aaron: Yeah. Which like, in my experience and in my observations exactly what you're saying right now is why. The current American government is making it hard for artists like you or artists in general to come here or artists in America to speak out. And they're taking, people off of television and censoring them because, you know, just in this really short conversation that we have, we've talked about Norway and Sweden and Germany and Holland and England and Spain and the US and Canada, and none of us are superstars, but none of us batted an eye about bringing together people in every one of those countries.
And that's a very rare thing. Like some banker is not going to go and give a talk in all of these countries. And bringing able to bring one to 700 people together in this room for a shared experience that shows that we are a lot more similar than the news that says that we are. Mm-hmm. And that's a very dangerous thing in the world right now.
[00:38:34] Malin: And I do think that that's a very special opportunity that we
[00:38:38] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:39] Malin: when we are in a room and all eyes are on us.
[00:38:42] Aaron: Hmm.
[00:38:42] Malin: I think for me, it was difficult to know in the beginning like, how should I approach this? What can I say in a way to not make people who disagree with me, like just walk out
[00:38:53] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:53] Malin: ears and be like, whatever.
I was like, Molly, you can say things to people they're in the room why not like. instead of telling people like what I think is right, I always try within my show to have a little talk about how, I don't think you have to be one of those people who like write in caps, lock or write articles about like your point to be able to move the world in a better direction.
But I do think that within our families, our friend groups, our communities, we can all ask questions, tell people what we think, ask them what they think, ask them why they think that. Like, Did you read this here? have you checked out this source? Be open yourself to new that you didn't know.
Check them out. Be open and try to just, I mean, it sounds very cliche, but try to be the kind of person that you kind of want that other person to be. Like, try to listen and do all of those things and be vocal if you dare. To the people around you about how you feel. I think those things on the long term.
We need a lot of change fast, but we also need things to change to make it robust. And if we do that in those ways, we can really make communities, kids, family groups. And if I am quite free, a lot more free than most of the world. And if I don't use that freedom in any way, then I kind of don't know what that freedom is worth.
Like what are we fighting for? To be able to use that freedom for something, difficult. But I think that if we all of try in our own little way and grasp those possibilities when we can,
it's a very good thing. It doesn't mean posting on social media.
Some people are not comfortable with that. And
[00:40:31] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:40:32] Malin: difficult when people come at you.
but sometimes it's also a sacrifice that is small compared to what a lot of other
[00:40:39] Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:40:40] Malin: sacrifice to be who they are or to live or
[00:40:42] Michaela: Totally. thank you for that, Malin. Before we ask you last question, I just wanna say I listened to uh, conversation with Ezra Klein and Tallahassee Coates. And they were in conversation recently because Ezra Klein wrote a piece about Charlie Kirk, who was publicly assassinated, who was a right wing conservative talking head person, podcaster, influencer, influencer And Ezra Klein and Taana Hassi Coates are friends and Taana Hassi Coates replied with his own piece, taking serious issue with what. Ezra wrote that he believed he was whitewashing it. Anyways, the whole conversation is really incredible because they are having an in-depth, respectful conversation, have disagreements everything.
But towards the end, Tony Hussey, Coate one of the things he said is, I am at war with ideologies, not with the people who hold those ideologies. And that really stuck with me of we need to hear that more and more of, how to bring the temperature down especially in America when there's so much ridiculous, insane conversation and violence and conversation about civil war.
And it's like remembering that we are not at war with each other. We're at war with harmful ideologies that are driven by, fear. That whole conversation is really good. Just wanna recommend
that, but thank you.
[00:42:04] Malin: I think fear is such an important word, you don't make people less afraid if you. Go at them. I do think, however, like I'm not good at being angry,
[00:42:13] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:13] Malin: but I've also realized that sometimes you need to be angry if people are not listening. You know, When it comes to any sort of fight to be liberated,
[00:42:21] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:22] Malin: that at a certain point it doesn't help to ask nicely anymore.
Like, Give us our rights. You have to use
[00:42:27] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:28] Malin: your voice and really like
[00:42:30] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:30] Malin: I think that we can all do this at different levels. We can all use the way that we feel that we can communicate the
[00:42:37] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:37] Malin: and I think for me, I have the freedom of being able to. Try and pause for a minute and see it from a couple different perspectives and try to understand, and somebody else might not have that privilege for them.
It might be about their lives, you know, about their kids. And it's not the time to be like, okay, I'm gonna sit down and listen to why you hate me so
[00:43:00] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:43:00] Malin: I understand that that's not always necessarily, you know, the right thing, but
that this can be fought, in lack of a better word, from different levels but I do truly, truly believe in the power of a good conversation and listening to each other if can get to that place.
I think that that's such a good way of getting like more robust change in the attitude of the other person also.
[00:43:24] Michaela: Definitely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being on and being such a good conversationalist, especially in your second language. I know. I'm all, but the entire time, I'm just
[00:43:36] Aaron: like I've also asked this of Mari and, to, but during this conversation, are you thinking in English or are you thinking Norwegian
[00:43:42] Malin: Yeah, no, I think in English.
[00:43:43] Aaron: a lot
[00:43:43] Malin: of the time,
[00:43:44] Aaron: Yeah. The,
[00:43:45] Malin: make it difficult to speak Norwegian sometimes.
[00:43:47] Aaron: yeah the, the closest experience I have to, that was I spent six months in Brazil and I didn't really speak Portuguese when I got there. could read understand Spanish, which was a blessing and a curse. It was similar, but different enough that it got me in trouble.
But by the time I left, 'cause I was living with a family that didn't speak English I could watch the nightly news and like I would dream in Portuguese and all that. And to this day, like even though there's. very few Portuguese speakers in Nashville. if I think about it, I can't speak very well, but if I'm just like speaking it'll
flow.
So,
[00:44:17] Malin: yeah, Yeah.
[00:44:17] Aaron: such a wild thing. Anyway. I guess the best way to say it is I have so much gratitude and awe for yourself and all of our Norwegian and Scandinavian friends that,
you can speak our language so well, that we can have like really deep flowing, moving conversations.
Mm-hmm. Because I could definitely not express myself at all in Norwegian. We'd be having a much different conversation. Well, We
[00:44:40] Michaela: can't even, we have a note. we should ask you now how to say the Norwegian Grammy, how do you say it
[00:44:46] Malin: Spell.
[00:44:48] Michaela: Pri.
[00:44:50] Malin: Got
[00:44:50] Aaron: Wow.
[00:44:51] Malin: So good.
Yeah, I always think of like being on trains, in Oslo or in Stockholm or something, and I'm like.
Yeah, yeah,
[00:44:57] Aaron: Oh, that's how you say that word. Wow. That okay. Wow. But yeah,
[00:45:01] Michaela: I feel like we've spent a lot of time with Mari and Tour as well, because they've come and like been here with us for a week at a time and stuff.
And so many times I'll be like, how do you say that? And then I'll be like, I'll listen to them. Like, I'm not even gonna try that. I don't,
[00:45:13] Aaron: I feel so bad. So many years. We called Mari Mari, we're like, oh, ma Mari. And to, yeah, Mari, yeah. She said, actually, it's Mari. And we're like, oh wow.
Cool.
[00:45:22] Michaela: Yeah,
[00:45:22] Aaron: so bad.
[00:45:23] Michaela: Well, also, our daughter, our daughter was obsessed with her when we were in Norway a couple years ago. But didn't talk that much, even English. 'cause she was two and she called Mari. this one. This one
[00:45:34] Aaron: I wanna go with this one.
[00:45:35] Malin: sweet.
[00:45:35] Michaela: This one. Can I, this one can I see with this one?
She was obsessed with her, but always. This one.
[00:45:41] Malin: That's incredible.
I love
[00:45:43] Aaron: Yeah. Before we let you go though, we have to get your answer on what we like to do for a final question. And it's choose whichever one you want. and this all relates to having a career built on your creativity, staying creative, staying sane, navigating this what we do.
It would be something that somebody has told you along the way that resonates and is constantly in your mind or conversely something you wish you knew when you were first getting started.
[00:46:09] Malin: I don't always agree with myself on this one. I might change mind when we get off this but I remember very well when I read Just Kids by Patti
[00:46:19] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:20] Malin: time, I paraphrase, I can't remember exactly like how she said it, but in some point in the book, she says, I just knew I was an artist.
I didn't know what like, I didn't know if I was a painter, a musician, poet, like what I was. I, I just knew I was an artist and in one part of my mind, during COVID I was fortunate enough to kind of like just be an artist. In terms of like making music, I was drawing, I was watering my plants, learning new
[00:46:48] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:48] Malin: doing other things.
And it felt very liberating and nice to not just be about music 'cause it was saturating my entire life and every single aspect of my life.
But when I came in the other end, I realized I had gone into a massive depression that it took me many, many, many years to get out of. And I'm just coming out of it now and realizing that it was liberating in the way that I still hold with me that I don't just have to be music. But it also made me realize that I could never go without. I like to tell myself I can quit this job if I don't love it anymore. Just like I said in the beginning of our conversation, quit social media, quit everything.
Just write songs for me and do something else. But I don't think I could. I think I'm now coming to terms with the fact that I am an artist, and that also means that if I go down that path, like you said, Mikayla, like nobody's forcing me to do it. Nobody's forcing me to post on social media. Nobody's forcing me to spend all of this money that I barely make on trying to just make another album that I'll probably not make any money off of.
Like
[00:47:55] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:56] Malin: So back to the beginning of our conversation, I did not mean to sound ungrateful for all of the chances that I have gotten. I am grateful getting to make music with my friends. For making the amount of money I need to record an album be able to go on tour and hopefully not go into the too much so that I get to pay my musicians and go on those adventures.
I think maybe for me, that's the artist bit is about. And then I have to just take the job that comes with it
I want to keep doing it professionally. And so I think that book for me was very, it helped me to see that the struggles are also a part of the journey that I would rather live with those struggles.
sometimes I disagree with myself, but at least for now, I want to live with those struggles because I don't picture my life in any other way.
[00:48:43] Michaela: Beautiful. I love that. Accepting and wanting to live with the struggle.
very Jungian. Jung psychology.
[00:48:51] Malin: what the fuck were you saying? You don't want these struggles, you just want
[00:48:55] Michaela: Why did you
[00:48:56] Aaron: pay
[00:48:56] Malin: your bills. Like Go get a job somewhere else. Don't ah.
And that's, really important to me that people are like, oh my God. So privileged me like, oh no, I have to post on social media.
That's so hard.
[00:49:07] Aaron: The way I put it's like, anything can feel like a job. Yeah. Anything can feel like work,
[00:49:12] Michaela: definitely.
[00:49:13] Aaron: Well,
Marlin, thank you so much for taking time out of your evening.
[00:49:16] Malin: Thank you to,
[00:49:17] Aaron: to sit with us.
[00:49:18] Malin: look up to both of you so much. And I'm so inspired by you guys
[00:49:21] Michaela: The feeling is mutual and I'm so excited for the day when you come back to Nashville
[00:49:26] Malin: Me too.
[00:49:27] Michaela: the day that we come back to Norway
[00:49:29] Malin: Yes.
[00:49:30] Michaela: All right. Thank you. Alright, bye bye. Take care.
[00:49:33] Malin: You too.