Melanie Charles is a genre bending artist/songwriter/producer who's performed with artists from Wynton Marsalis to SZA. We talk about artist freedom, the power of curiosity and exploration, balancing advocacy and self-care, and solitude in your creative practice.
Melanie Charles is a genre bending artist/songwriter/producer who's performed with artists from Wynton Marsalis to SZA. We talk about artist freedom, the power of curiosity and exploration, balancing advocacy and self-care, and solitude in your creative practice.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:07] Aaron: Hi, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your host Michaela Anne. If you are new to us, thank you for checking us out. If you're returning, welcome back.
[00:00:19] Aaron: So, if you are new to this show, it's not your typical music podcast where guests come on and talk about their latest record or promote a tour they're about to leave on.
We called it the other 22 Hours because we wanted to focus on the time that we as musicians are not on stage. Explore the different tools and routines our guests have found to keep balance and inspiration in their lives while creating a career around their art.
[00:00:38] Michaela: Between the two of us, Aaron and I have almost 25 years of experience in the music business. I've spent the better part of the last decade writing and recording and releasing records on my own, as well as with labels and touring around the world, building my independent career.
[00:00:54] Aaron: I started making records with friends in high school and then spent way too many years in music school taught in New York City public schools and then went back on the road with bands for years. Now I spend my time right here in my studio if you're watching on YouTube and produce records and write music for tv.
Through all of this, Michaela and I have realized that there's no one right way to build a career around your passion.
[00:01:16] Michaela: And in an industry where so much feels out of our control, up to luck being in the right place at the right time, who, you know, we wanted to focus on the things that are within our control.
[00:01:27] Aaron: And so with that, we decided to invite our friends on to have conversations about all the other times that are normally outside of the public eye and ask them the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so you can sustain your creativity? And that friend today, harks all the way back to jazz school in New York City at the New School for Jazz and Contemporary Music. Her name is Melanie Charles.
[00:01:47] Michaela: We've known Melanie for a long time and she has gone on to become an incredibly acclaimed and respected artist, musician, singer, songwriter, and she's performed all over the world in Jazz at Lincoln Center in New York, in Italy, the Blue Note in Japan.
And she's worked with incredible artists like Wynton Marsalis, and SZA. One of my personal favorites.
[00:02:10] Aaron: And Nicola Conti Jesse Smale, Terri Lyne Carrington, as well as on late night TV on Stephen Colbert. Her record, Y’all Don’t (Really) Care About Black Women came out at the end of 2021 on Verve Records.
[00:02:23] Michaela: And is incredible.
[00:02:24] Aaron: Incredible.
[00:02:25] Michaela: But Melanie is a deep, wise soul that just gave us so much in this conversation. We talked about staying true to your artistic self regardless of what the industry standards are. Rest.
[00:02:39] Aaron: The power of artistic led community building.
[00:02:42] Michaela: Unlearning what we are taught in institutionalized education.
[00:02:46] Aaron: There's a lot of jazz school recovery talk in this as well as talking about age, expectations, how you show up for your art, it's in front of your ego or behind your ego and needless to say, we just jumped right into this conversation from the start. So without further delay, here's our conversation with Melanie Charles.
[00:03:05] Michaela: Hi, how are you this morning?
[00:03:07] Melanie: I'm all right. How are you guys?
[00:03:09] Aaron: It's good to see you. It's been a long time.
I
[00:03:11] Melanie: know you guys, you guys were like the one successful couple in school that actually stayed together and is living a healthy, beautiful life. So kudos to you guys.
[00:03:24] Michaela: thank you.
[00:03:25] Aaron: We've got bruised knees and all of that, you know.
[00:03:27] Michaela: Yeah. we've been through our stuff
[00:03:29] Melanie: Mm-hmm. . I see
You got a few more grays over there happening.
[00:03:32] Aaron: Oh jeez, you're telling me,
[00:03:34] Michaela: me too. But I finally dyed my hair this year because I was like, my, principles were like, no, I'm not gonna dye my hair. I'm gonna embrace this. But then every time I looked in the mirror I was like, I think I need to do it. Just like I couldn't accept it.
[00:03:47] Melanie: Mid thirties, women, there's a lot of things that are happening that I don't think we were prepared for.
[00:03:52] Michaela: I was like, Maybe if I was like mid forties, but I feel it was just making me feel so much older than I wanted to feel that I was like, wait, I feel like the pandemic hit and I felt like young and free and then now like the pandemic and having a baby and my, my mom's stuff. And I was just like, no, this is making me feel like I'm in my fifties. And I think maybe just getting rid of my grays might help me.
[00:04:16] Melanie: Mm-hmm, well you look good.
[00:04:17] Aaron: I saw this tweet this morning that was like 35 in the suburbs is more like 45, but 35 in the city is more like 25. And I can't explain it, but I'm right. And that's so true, and Nashville's like kind of a suburban city so you feel much older here when you're in your mid thirties.
[00:04:32] Melanie: I saw this article about how like 35, mid 30 year olds is just a different game than like where our parents were our age. Like you said, the pandemic, the work market, the industry, everything is just so new what is age, what is time? you know? but we're doing our best. We're kicking it. We're pushing through.
[00:04:51] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:52] Michaela: We are, and I think part of the many conversations I like to have and try and talk about more is this idea of age especially for women of these kind of archaic concepts that like you're supposed to be somewhere by a certain age or achieve a certain amount of something. And I think especially because of the pandemic, it's just like, no, we have to undo all of those ideas.
[00:05:16] Melanie: Yeah. We have to, there are things that I thought that I would've achieved by now when I graduated high school that I didn't achieve, that I may never achieve. And I just turned 35 last week actually. Leading up to it was just like so jarring. I had a lot of breakdowns and like internal fights with myself, with my fiancé, just being scared of what 35 means. Mourning the things that I expected , like my body changing and feeling conscious of age. My mom is beautiful and like super healthy, and I grew up always being like, I don't care about age, age is never gonna be a thing. Well.
[00:05:56] Michaela: Then you face it.
[00:05:57] Melanie: And it's a different game.
[00:05:59] Aaron: Mm-hmm. I observe it, obviously more so to women. I mean, you guys get that thrown in your face. I surprisingly felt the same thing when I turned 35. I'm 37 now, but coming up on 35, like, two weeks before, 10 days before, like, I was, really anxious and it took me a second to be like, oh, this is all anxiety about getting older and it took me by surprise.
[00:06:21] Melanie: yeah.
[00:06:21] Michaela: I think when you're, especially when you have a public aspect of your career um, and also like your physical appearance is part of, as an artist, your presentation and how, especially in the age of the internet, how you attract people to try and listen to you.
we idealize youth so much it's really hard no matter how healthy you try to be about it, that when you're faced with it, you're like, oh shit, this is really deeply ingrained in me and I have a choice to, make the decisions of the things that will maybe given to those concepts like dye my hair but also talking about it and trying to impact a shift in culture and conversation.
I'm not trying to dis on youth, but thinking back to the things that I was talking about and thinking about in my early twenties and what I observe, I think there's great value in anything that young people are wanting to talk about. Absolutely. But at the same time, I value even more the wisdom of what somebody at 35 has been through, or 45 or a 65 year old female artist in particular, like what they wanna share with me, I wanna hear that stuff.
[00:07:31] Melanie: For sure. I feel like there's value in every moment and aging is just something that we can't fight. It's in, it's inevitable. And yeah, we live in an industry where youth is almost fetishized, you know? And like once you've hit a certain age, you're easily thrown away. But then we see certain success stories of artists who catch their fame or popularity or they get into their stride at sixties and seventy and we find that really inspiring. And at the same time, like I used to judge people that would do certain procedures to look young, but really at the end of the day, right now, where I stand is , you know what?
Do whatever you need to do to feel okay. Because at the end of the day that's the journey that we're on. How can I feel okay with what I got right now, whatever I have to do. If it means changing your wiring and finding the beauty, in your current state, or if it means going on a crazy diet or if it means dying your hair, whatever it is, small or large, I just feel like we just gotta do it and just find a way to push through and not judge ourselves. You know what I mean? cause I think it's really easy to judge, especially those of us who went to Jazz Conservatory. I feel like there's something that we were taught to just beat ourselves up.
[00:08:42] Aaron: I'm I'm still recovering
[00:08:44] Melanie: Listen. Me too, bruh. Ah, I'm really unlearning a lot of crap from that.
[00:08:50] Michaela: Oh my god, Melanie, we just jumped right into this conversation.
[00:08:53] Aaron: Here's the deep end.
[00:08:54] Michaela: which is awesome.
[00:08:55] Aaron: But ,nothing, it's perfect.
[00:08:56] Michaela: Just to give a little backstory, our current audience, I mean, this is a brand new podcast, we work in this Americana, like indie rock, pop, whatever world.
So probably a lot of our current audience, may not be as familiar with the jazz world. And that's where like we come from. And So we have a lot of questions for you to kind of share your work and your process in the way that you write music that also in our world of our listeners, it might be a little unfamiliar, but I literally have a question, you went to LaGuardia a music school for high school, and then went to a jazz conservatory, and I said, specifically, what are you still unlearning? How did so much music school impact your musicianship and creativity?
[00:09:40] Melanie: I feel like music school, like serious music education kind of removed the fun of music for me. And I remember graduating high school in a lot of my peers saying, LaGuardia ruined music for me, and I'm just gonna quit music and just do something else. And I remember feeling like, ugh, then you weren't made for this if it takes your high school schooling to make you quit, then you weren't supposed to be a musician anyway. So good. Go do what you gotta do. Right? All right. So then I pushed through with The New School, and some of my most treasured experiences are from that time so I totally value it. I love it. I wouldn't have it any other way. However, the pressure, the perfection, the ethos, the sense of like worship of, jazz legends and like, who's killin', oh my god, that word killin', Ugh. Up till like this year still, I found myself when it's time to perform, to share music, thinking about checking certain boxes of what I learned in school, whether it's pitch or like sure like it swings in a way or that I'm doing this kind of material so that you can say that I am a jazz musician. All of those things have gotten in the way of true creativity and although I think anyone who listens to my music will say no, you totally do your own thing and you're creative, but I still have these internal battles that maybe may not be viewed on the outside, but I'm still working through that stuff.
I might always, probably to the day I die, be unlearning that. And maybe that is the beauty of it, right? They say like, learn everything and then forget about it. That's like goal of this whole thing. I So it's a process. I'm still unlearning child, but now I'm in the role of mentorship now, and so I'm trying to like, infuse that in my teachings of, like, okay, here's how I did it but there's no right or wrong way to do it and trust your instincts, your instincts are on point. Maybe there's like certain technical things that you may not know and you'll learn that with time, but you know, at the end of the day what you need to do for you and have faith in that.
[00:11:43] Aaron: A hundred percent. I come from a similar situation. I went to Interlochen Arts Academy for two years before The New School. So it was a multidisciplinary art school, which was really inspiring and really helped. And then I kind of got beat down at The New School personally.
[00:11:57] Melanie: Really? Was that your experience?
[00:11:58] Aaron: Yeah. Interlochen, was really inspiring. I'm like, yeah, this is it. Kinda was like jet fuel to my passion and my love of music and all of that. And then I kind got beat down at The New School. I'm still processing through that a lot of the shoulds and I should be this and a lot of like, do I want to do this for the validation and to like check the boxes of these people that I put on pedestals? Or is this my actual creative drive and, my vision?
[00:12:22] Melanie: Yeah.
[00:12:23] Aaron: The teachers that I had along the way that had a huge impact on me all approached it by basically teaching me how to teach myself and be curious and be open.
And that is such a thing that I see is unfortunately rare. especially when you get to like a conservatory thing. There's a lot of like, this is the way it is, this how it is. And the teachers that were really open and taught me how to be curious are the ones that really stuck with me.
[00:12:51] Melanie: Yeah, for sure. We all went to The New School. I remember there was one teacher that so many students did not like, but she , may she rest in peace, Ms. Janet Lawson.
But she was one of those people that really just encouraged me to just do me, you know, if it got messy, weird, like, she was all about pushing people to just really just explore and it's so crazy.
Exploration is such a simple thing. We are, we're born with that natural instinct to wanna explore and try things and get into trouble and then we unlearn that and school, ruins that for us. So it's really cool to hear that you've still held on to that. I feel like I've still held on to that. I think that's a little lifeline for doing what we do.
[00:13:36] Michaela: I definitely felt like I got beat down at the jazz school, I came to jazz school, because I loved the American songbook and I loved the songs, and then I ended up in this school that felt like they didn't honor songs at all. They were just like, you should be able to technically be a great singer, like how a trumpet player plays a trumpet.
And it was, you know, really emphasized on scatting and doing all this other stuff that I was not good at. So then instead of me thinking, okay, this isn't my forte, maybe I need to find somewhere else, I internalized it and I didn't have any teachers who gave me that message of, okay, this is one way to approach music.
Use these tools to develop your thing. I didn't have that message. I had the message of, You can't do this specific thing to the level that we think is great. Well then you're not worthy.
[00:14:27] Melanie: Well, and I think it depends on the path that you wanna go, because there is a truth to that, you know? And, and with time I began to understand that , if you want a jazz Grammy or if you wanna sing with Wynton Marsalis' big band, or if you wanna do these certain kinds of things, then sure, there is a way that you're going to have to perform.
But if you're curious about like this world of sound that you can create, then dig into you. And I'm lucky that sure, jazz school kind of really messed us up with that concept of , this is how it has to be. But I'm so blessed that I have a mother, she's a Haitian immigrant who's just like weird, artsy hippie, but , is anti weed. It's a weird conundrum that woman, but she, from day one, was just like, you wanna sing? Here's voice lessons. You wanna play flute? I'm getting you a flute. You wanna do musical theater, go to musical theater. You wanna do Haitian voodoo songs? Go do Haitian voodoo songs. You wanna go live in Japan? I support you.
Everything creatively that I wanted to try. Luckily at home I had that voice saying, do it, do it. Try it. Even when it comes down to cooking, I'd make weird dishes and my, and I, I'd make my mom try and , she'd be like, well, it's not my thing, but if this is your recipe, if this is your intention, then it's good.
Like I just was very lucky to have that at home, to balance out what school can do to you. And so I'm excited for you guys as kids. Like I know you're teaching your little kid like, hey, like, do you be free 'cause the world and school is gonna teach you otherwise.
And I don't think that the, it's a fault of The New School. I think the jazz school concept is a scam, y'all.
[00:16:10] Aaron: Me too.
[00:16:10] Michaela: Well, that's the next thing I was gonna say is like, the thing that was hard for me to reconcile is that jazz music especially was created by innovators and people who didn't follow rules and were expressing what they felt, and were coming up with all these new harmonies and ways of playing music that hadn't been done.
And then we institutionalize it and put it in these classrooms. Nothing is all one thing or all just bad. There's a lot of benefits, of formal music education, I think. But there is something at odds of not being able to preserve the spirit of it.
If we're gonna teach it that aspect of take these tools and do with it what you feel artistically, even if that means that you're learning this jazz music and you go on to sing country music
[00:17:01] Melanie: Right.
[00:17:01] Michaela: well, that like the spirit of jazz is creating the music that you feel. It's not like you need to stand in a fluorescent lit room and do it exactly the way this one teacher has interpreted it, and that you, if you're not hitting everything in the Locrian mode, well then you suck.
[00:17:19] Melanie: But that's the thing about when you turn art into a business, when you turn anything into a business, you have to have , criteria. There has to be a way you have to check a box. And so you're forced to teach in this way in order to say that this person can graduate now and go do this thing.
But we all know that a lot of people who graduated from a lot of these conservatories could barely play in and six. you, you, you can't, you, You can't even really do the musical things, but there was some box that some teachers said, yeah, okay, go on and do it. but That's the business side of it.
And so I think of certain artists, Emily King for example, who, to me, the way she's developed her career is really admirable from going from the major label route to being dropped. I was actually never publicly said this, but I was signed to Verve and essentially got dropped, last year. I found myself questioning my value, questioning my choices. What will the industry think? Even my management was like, don't tell people you got drops 'cause that's not a good look. But today I stand and I say, you know what? Thank God, I was released from the chains of corruption that this institution was like choking me with because now I can be free and really think about the kind of life that I wanna live.
I'm not really interested in doing what people believe I should be doing. I wanna do what, makes me feel good. What is inspiring other women that look like me that may or may not have had similar experiences as me? Those are the things that really inspire me. Performing in certain venues or doing specific type of genre of music after a while for me is just boring. I don't got time for that anymore. I spent most of my life doing that. Something's gotta give, you know? But, but like I started saying like Emily King, her being dropped from this major label and now to me, like the body of work that she's created since then is just so expansive and just imaginative and really exciting.
I'm really grateful that she went that path, so that's the kind of career or lifestyle that I'm looking to now. Whereas before I would've said, I wanna be like a, I don't lord knows who the people that I was looking up to.
[00:19:30] Aaron: I mean power to you to see the opportunity in cutting ties with that label, because I think it's so easy when you're creating art and trying to build a career around your art and releasing your art, there are these gatekeepers, labels, booking agents, festival promoters, radio, whatever it is in your world that you, can so easily slip into feeling like subservient to that and that put so much validation in their word. When, one thing that is said a lot on this podcast is that like they all work for you. At the end of the day.
If you weren't making your art, they would have no business. And Verve is such a respected label, but if it's not right for you, it doesn't matter what label it is. If it's keeping you from making the art and making the statement that you want to make, it doesn't matter who it is.
[00:20:18] Michaela: And also a label is just made up of an ever-changing staff of people who are just mm-hmm. people. I say this all the time to myself, as well as to my friends when we get caught up of, like, this festival buyer doesn't like me, so I didn't get on that festival. Or the label isn't happy with me until they dropped me, whatever. Or this journalist won't write about my record. It's like, okay, these are just people who decided that they would pursue that job in life to make these decisions. They aren't like touched by the god of music that they somehow have the taste to determine they're just random ass people who have that job.
[00:20:59] Melanie: Who have that power and who are probably, don't even really know what they like, probably have bad taste in music, I've spoken with some label people, I'm not gonna name no names, but when you ask them what they're listening to, they're just like, out to lunch. Like, not like, I'm like, do you even like music?
You know what I mean? Some of these people, they don't, they don't even know. And so it's like we've been sold this false idea and it's just like,, nah, dude. You just gotta do you. And also, like, I'm really fascinated right now with artist driven movements.
Like, you guys taking the mic and doing this podcast and having these conversations as artists. , I too have my own little podcast as well, you know? festivals, hiring artists to curate. I'm curating for BRICC Jazz Fest this year.
Like to me, yeah, To me that's really fulfilling and like my small little experience as a musician, creating spaces for other artists that maybe these festivals may not pay attention to, but because I'm actually in the field, I'm like, oh, you gotta get this person, you gotta get that person.
To me that's the changing tide is artists taking more ownership over what the curation of music at large, and not just these old people who are not cultured and who aren't invested in art.
[00:22:17] Michaela: Or there's a difference. Even like the most well-intentioned, super fan music journalists or festival organizers, talent buyers, or whatever. There still is a difference between being someone who loves music and really maybe has the most well-intentioned respect for artists and being an artist who is in the community and living the life as a working musician, there's just a difference that you can't understand unless you live it.
[00:22:45] Melanie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. for sure.
[00:22:48] Aaron: And on that I mean, art is not created in a vacuum. So the artist driven, like community leading, I think it's really important and I see it as well in our world of people, artists curating things more. I think maybe it's the way the internet has evolved into being so accessible to everybody, there's more outlets. But also I've seen it with festival curation and, in our world, there's a lot of like big multi-band tours that happen. It's almost like festival tours in a way that happen, which is, curating experiences in a way. And I think just sharing audiences, sharing ideas, sharing music that is a good thing for the community as a whole. And I think , hopefully it can turn into a feedback loop that really starts bubble up.
[00:23:33] Melanie: I have to also acknowledge going back a little bit to talking about the jazz thing is that in our jazz education, they were teaching us about a lot of shit, but missed so much shit. For example, people like Rahsaan Roland Kirk, people know him as the guy that played a couple of saxophones at one time.
But was actually really invested in creating movements for artists and beginning his own union for artists. And like, he was one of the first people to be really radical in getting black jazz musicians on television shows. He started his own jazz festival that was sort of like a rival to Newport Jazz Fest and ran the festival at the same time that Newport was happening.
Like, There's Sun Ra who I read whenever I'm sad and, I need inspiration. I read a poem from this book Prophetica. The dude had his own like publishing company.
And like Louis Armstrong was a huge audiophile and has buckets of cassette tapes where he would record conversations of himself and other musicians in hotel rooms when he was on tour. and
[00:24:30] Michaela: He was the original podcaster.
[00:24:32] Melanie: Yes. Y'all. So, so I'm saying
like,,
in school they didn't even teach us this juicy stuff, you know? Sure there is a resurgence of this happening, but , this ain't new. And the people that were really cutting edge, that were really like doing exciting music that we idolized also were people that were interested in finding different ways and doing different kinds of things.
We're in a really cool lineage and like making our own shit. I think we're just continuing the journey and expanding it even more. So that's fun.
[00:25:00] Michaela: Can you name the name of your podcast?
[00:25:03] Melanie: Make Jazz Trill Again podcast. And my co-host is Yunie Mojica, my good friend of many years.
[00:25:09] Michaela: And we say on this podcast that we're not like really talking about records, but your record is so much more of a, a statement and ties into all of your mission-based work that your music is very outspoken in having a purpose beyond just your personal self-expression and Make Jazz Trill Again is part of it. Your, kind of mission statement as an artist. Can you talk about what that means?
[00:25:33] Melanie: Yeah. So it took my good friend, Dara Gollob, went The New School. She's a beautiful documentarian who started recording and documenting our lives at The New School. And she told me, she was like, Mel, you've been about the Make Jazz Trill Again life. You just didn't have the name for it.
And I was like, okay, that's true. Because since before I could remember, I was just like, how can jazz come back to the people? how can we bring that energy back of when it was played at house parties and , people were dancing to it in the club when it was like pop music. And so even during my time at The New School, I was just like really interested performing in spaces that were not traditional jazz venues, and taking traditional songs that we all really love. Like I too love the American Songbook, but how can I make it more of my own? I've always really been interested in that and, the past few years, this concept of Make Jazz Trill Again was born.
And for me it's like a whole lifestyle thing. It's not only like a sound of a music, but it's the way we dress, the way we move, the places that we go, how we interact with art and having conversations I say with like jazz adjacent. So like, sure, you may not be a working jazz musician, but if you are of that space, if you come from that sort of mindset, those are the kinds of people that I'm interested in having conversations with and who I have as guests on the Make Jazz Trill Again, podcast.
And I love also the concept of Make Jazz Trill Again, because it's not about me and I see people connect to it on their own, in their own ways. And to me that's really exciting. Like, Even like the merch that I do, my face isn't on it. Make Jazz Trill Again, like we all can feel something in that idea.
So I'm really proud of that little thing and it's growing it's own legs. Eventually I'm gonna turn into a production company. I have a lot of dreams and aspirations that I wanna do surrounding , this beloved concept.
[00:27:28] Michaela: That's beautiful.
[00:27:29] Melanie: Thanks.
[00:27:30] Michaela: And again it's like this has come up for several artists and something we talk about and I think about that. I have learned, I struggle with being a solo artist when my life is me when it's about me putting out my music and promoting myself and look at me on social media so you'll listen to my music.
I just am not happy when I am in that mode and doing things like this. And I do a lot of private songwriting coaching and private voice lessons. And when I am in service to other people, Yeah. I feel so much happier, more alive, and it feeds my creativity to create because it's not self-focused.
[00:28:12] Melanie: I mean, yeah, I connect to that so much because I always was the music girl, right? Even from elementary school. But it wasn't a desire to be seen or heard solely. Like, I don't know. It's a weird thing 'cause like people say like, okay, whoever ends up doing music career is because you wanna be heard and seen.
Maybe there's a piece of that. But I think it's just simply my safe space is making music and making art. It's just something that I'm comfortable doing. But I definitely found myself struggling, let's say in moments where it's many vocalists, right? And it's like a duo, a trio.
And certain vocalists will use that as opportunity to do their best runs and do their, you know, I've always found myself shying away and sort of been take it girl. Like, you know, like, I don't That doesn't fuel me. But not no shade to people more competitive because that's entertaining and really cool as well.
And people who were like, come see me, hear me, see me, feel me. That's beautiful. And that's really inspiring there. I love that, but just for me, I get uncomfortable. I get awkward. It's Yeah so strange.
[00:29:16] Michaela: That's when I choke. I'm like, this is my worst performance when it's my turn to shine. I'm like, I don't know what that was. I'm so sorry .
[00:29:23] Melanie: Yeah. Like,
I don't know what you want me to do, it's just not me. Even though people might not see that aspect. So, I also feel that my love language is creating with others. For me, if you're my friend and I'm recording something, you may not even be a good vocalist, but I'll just be like, girl, come sing on this record.
We'll edit it after, but I just want you on the record cause I love you. You know what I mean? That's my mom. My mom's not a professional vocalist, but I'll have her come lay down some vocals on stuff. When I do music videos for my songs, it would be a lot cheaper if it was just me and a cool background.
But I always end up having a whole tribe of all my people in the video 'cause I'm like, let's shine together, let's be great. Let's make art.
[00:30:00] Aaron: That's cool. what does your creative process look like? What does your songwriting process look like? Because you know, our world a lot of times is just sitting with a guitar, sitting with a piano. You know, a lot of co-writes, co-writing is a big thing, but what does it look like for you? Is it a community based thing in the actual creation process, or is it a lot of carving things out yourself?
[00:30:19] Melanie: It's not very collaborative in that way. And I do want to expand more in that way. But I find that I have a lot of ideals already on my own. And in order me to really create the sound that I have in my head, solitude is really important to me. I. Sit down at the keys. Like right now, I have my little Casio next to me right now.
I have a Rhodes. We're trying to get it fixed. I play crappy guitar, but I like to write in that way as opposed to how my partner, who's also a great vocalist and producer, he likes to write in the DAW. Like he'll the beat and like sing and just be right here.
And I'm always just like, how do you do that? I need to work the song out first somewhere organic and then apply it into, the recording mode. It works for me because I write for the intention of performing it , and delivering a message. Some people write for the album, which is cool too.
That's why you have certain albums who are just like, oh my god, this is incredible. Because the intention was , I wanna make this ear candy or whatever. But for me, my goal is always , how is this gonna translate live? So that's how I write. But lately I find myself doing a lot of remixes and a lot of reimaginings, which is what my last record Y’all Don’t (Really) Care About Black Women is it really is more of a re-imagining of works by women like Billie Holiday and Sarah Vaughan.
And in that context, I'm always like, how can I dance to this? How can this be attractive to someone that is not necessarily invested in this 1920s jazz era? Like How can make it palatable to them? How can I just make it bump? So it's just two different modes of creativity, like from my personal writing organically to just taking other works and reimagining and making it more modern.
I don't have one process. So there's one song that I wrote, I was in Cali, and I kept running into interesting people that were saying really beautiful things and I would just like take a phrase, it's funny how things like that happen, whatever. Something like that.
And I write it down, da da da. And by the end of the summer of I wrote one of my favorite songs I've ever written. And it was just like little phrases of little conversations from the people that I met. So , I don't have one way to do it, but whenever the creativity is there, I just try to capture it.
[00:32:38] Aaron: I feel you on,
[00:32:39] Melanie: the,
[00:32:39] Aaron: solitary creative space most of my writing, 85% of my writing is kind of for sync, for licensing, for TV and film and whatnot. So there's a very small, weird framework that it's creating within. But all of that is with other people.
And a lot of it is, you know, in this room here in my studio where I'm writing and producing at the same time, and the kind of the MO is , at the end of the write, most of the song is finished and produced and all of that. And that has taken so much to get used to, which I think is like the jazz school thing.
The voice in the back of my head, like, Oh, I'm gonna get judged. Like, They're gonna think this is lame. Like all of that. but
it's, It's weird to create in that sense for me. I would much rather just take, something that's 60% there and then step away and be able to fill out that world the rest of the way.
[00:33:24] Melanie: I think it's really cool what you're doing and that's something that I, I want to be able to do because I think that's a really strong skillset to be able to say, okay, I have to do this thing. And Okay, I did it. You know what I mean? Like how cool is that for us to ourselves, do that, because of that you found a way to live a life where you can just live solely on music. Thank God, otherwise Lord knows what you'd be having to do in order to sustain yourself. So I think that's really cool.
And,
[00:33:55] Michaela: Yeah. The financial aspect of music is also something I feel like that is not publicly talked about that much because there's like this shame of if you have to work other jobs, then you're not really a working professional musician. And the reality is that just, it is really hard to make a living in music.
[00:34:14] Melanie: It really is. It really is. The industry is not what it used to be. Like touring now, being a touring musician, you gonna come back broke. There was a time where if you went on tour that meant, okay, I'm gonna make me a little bit of money. I'm gonna get, I'm gonna have a couple, you know, now you go on tour. It's a sacrifice. It's like when a politician goes on their campaign, like they're paying.
[00:34:34] Michaela: It's promotional.
[00:34:34] Melanie: So I've had to really struggle with that. I'm really lucky that, I had a couple of grants that sustain me and that I've been saving my little monies and now I'm doing projects and stuff. Like I'm doing this thing with the Brooklyn Nets, which I'm a artist collaborator with them. So basically they have me doing different things throughout the year. One of the things was produce this track for All Star Weekend, and that was really hard because I had to like, create, produce this thing and it'd be done.
You know what I mean? I didn't have that space to like let it sit and marinate. I'm glad that I was able to pull that off. But as artists, we gotta, sure, we wanna be able to sit at the keys and like let it, but not always do we have that luxury to, to that. And being malleable is, is super important.
[00:35:25] Michaela: Yeah. It's taken us a long time to build what we have I mean, being together since we were in college, like 15 years. It's been inspiring to me to watch his dedication to making his living off of music because there have been some really, really tight, hard times where I've always been much more afraid of the financial hardship of it.
So I always would have. other jobs, like I always would babysit or get a waitressing job or whatever. And the last several years, I sustained my income off of teaching and coaching with my performance in music. And thankfully, it's now gotten to a point where that's also a contributing aspect of my income.
But like, I make money when I go out and tour solo, but if I take a band, I always lose money if I have to pay other people I never make enough money to come home with a profit.
[00:36:16] Melanie: It's so sad, and the whole system needs to be reworked. We need to be like looking at how is the money getting broken down with these festivals? Where is the money going? Who's getting rich?
[00:36:26] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:27] Melanie: Because it ain't us
[00:36:28] Aaron: yeah.
[00:36:29] Melanie: Like so where is the money going? . So there needs to be some really deep research.
But I don't know. That part of it is very discouraging I have a, European booking agent now and I have a US booking agent and it's like, you'd think that it would mean automatically like a big financial jump and like a big opportunity jump, you know, now that you have these people in place, but the industry and the infrastructure is what it is.
Unless you're lucky. I don't know. I guess there are certain people who are really blessed and like things jump for them, you know? That hasn't been my story.
[00:37:04] Michaela: Mm-hmm. , no, and I think these conversations are important because I think it's so hushed that I think there are people even on a level that are like selling a lot of tickets that you would think must be making money, and because then their expenses increase, they're also losing money on tour.
I've always been someone who I could be called nosy or I could be called just really curious.
[00:37:28] Melanie: mm-hmm.
[00:37:29] Michaela: I wanna know everything. I wanna see everybody's spreadsheets,
[00:37:32] Melanie: Yeah. How is these things getting broken down? But it's true. Like people really wanna sell you a story and like, make you think that everything's figured out. I've never been that kind of person. I'll be the first one to tell you when something ain't right. I'll, I'll lead with that if anything, because I, I this shit isn't perfect, and we we're not doing it because it's easy, clearly. It's hard, but it, we didn't choose it. It truly chose us. And so we just trying to find a
[00:37:59] Aaron: Absolutely. I think This is tying back to like how we started, we're talking about age and all of that, where like there's this fetishization of like, oh, this is my debut record. You know, and it's like pull the curtain back, you're like, oh, this is like an overnight sensation, 10 years in the making.
You know what I mean?
[00:38:13] Melanie: Yes. And 10 is that number. I feel like it does take 10 years for something to happen, for sure in this creative space.
[00:38:19] Michaela: Yeah. Or, or more. We, we know people who like are 20 years in and have had multiple bands and then they have their debut solo record at 40 some years old, and then things start clicking. You know? It's just, Understanding like the nitty gritty behind the scenes is what I love to see.
Like, I wanna know people's Worst moments and their worst gigs, not the highest moment that they had. Mm-hmm. I wanna know what they endured to get there.
[00:38:46] Melanie: Yeah. that's where the juice really happens. I mean, I have certain gigs that I've done that were such an important gig. I mentioned Wynton earlier, so being at The New School coming up that was the holy grail. We all worshiped Wynton Marsalis' big band.
And like, I remember doing shows and wanting to rebel against the Jazz at Lincoln Center space and being like, I'm gonna perform this song, but I'm gonna do it my way. Like literally at Sweet Rhythm. You guys remember Sweet Rhythm in the West Village?
[00:39:13] Aaron: Oh yeah.
[00:39:14] Melanie: And then fast forward a few years later, I think two years ago, I got the call to sing with Wynton Marsalis' big band.
Oh my God. I was so excited. My mom was so excited. My mom felt like finally, something's happening with your music. Finally. And y'all, I bombed. Like I sucked on that gig so bad. Like right now it still haunts me. I try to forget about it and I think about it. And the big mistake that I made was that I was focusing on the fact that I was singing with Wynton Marsalis.
[00:39:48] Aaron: That, mm-hmm.
[00:39:50] Melanie: Such a small thing.
[00:39:52] Michaela: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
[00:39:53] Melanie: but there was no music happen. I didn't make no music.
Cause I was trying to impress him, impress the people, prove why I was there. But now I'm gonna Germany in two weeks. I'm gonna be singing with the WDR Big Band. I don't know if you know about them.
There's this band out there and Terri Lyne Carrington is, is drumming and we're doing her music and they brought me in to do that. So like now, as I'm shedding the music, I'm like, Mel, don't focus on the fact that you're singing with Terri Lyne Carrington or this big band in Germany. Focus on the music.
Just remember that. That will always be the saving Grace is the music.
[00:40:28] Aaron: Mm-hmm. this is something that I am still trying to learn actively you don't learn. When you succeed, you learn when you fail. And I think that I held myself back from doing things for so long out of fear of failure, as your friend, I really wish that you would've stepped up with Wynton and that would've been that. and like, the cover of every Downbeat Magazine for the next 15 years, you've got the cover. 144 covers on Downbeat is Melanie Charles. But power to you like You learned so much from that. you know, at least it sounds like you did like,
[00:40:59] Melanie: Yeah.
[00:40:59] Aaron: For me, I learned when I fail.
[00:41:01] Melanie: Yeah.
[00:41:02] Aaron: I fail, The more I learn and the more it really sticks.
[00:41:04] Melanie: It's painful though.
[00:41:05] Aaron: Oh man, it really is.
[00:41:07] Michaela: It's so painful. But
[00:41:08] Aaron: Can I learn when it's, fun and it's amazing and I get the reception?
[00:41:11] Michaela: But the, the other thing is this, like the dichotomy of what you do as a musician that elevates your career and what you do that elevates your growth as a human. They aren't always the same.
And I feel like in those moments failure, "failure" and in those moments where you don't feel like you rose the occasion or you grow or whatever, that feeds all of your dimensions of who you are as a person that ultimately feeds your creativity, but it might not be the thing that makes you more famous.
[00:41:44] Melanie: yeah.
[00:41:45] Michaela: or whatever. But yeah, it, that's a huge thing. And like being in your mid thirties of like, oh, my idea of success is so different than it was at 25.
[00:41:57] Melanie: Yeah.
[00:41:57] Michaela: And my idea of success of how I feel about myself as a person, as a musician, that has nothing to do with my social media numbers or my status in my, community of musicians as far as like ranking for headlining, whatever.
[00:42:13] Aaron: How big your font is on the festival poster.
[00:42:15] Michaela: Yeah, exactly. They're different things. And hearing you talk about that is like, oh, that experience informs who you are in such a different way that this conversation right now would a different conversation. Mm-hmm. From what would've evolved if you had just seamlessly, flawlessly, nailed every single experience.
[00:42:40] Aaron: And I think it's important to note you know, as we're talking about like success here that is not one side of the line or the other, like you had mentioned with Emily King, being on a major label, it's like there's not one thing that happens and it's like, okay, you are a successful musician. It's not a straight line that goes like this.
[00:42:55] Melanie: it's true.
[00:42:56] Aaron: it's, It squiggles.
[00:42:57] Melanie: That's so interesting. That's been a reoccurring theme is like, success isn't like this. It's like that. Like literally I was talking to a friend yesterday and she said that I don't know like where, what the moon and the stars are doing right now, but I think the collective information for us all might be reminding us, 'cause we know that. But a reminder that success really, it looks like so many different things. I think just like staying alive, staying healthy, physically, spiritually is also the thing. That's why like. once again, if you wanna think about the people that we idolize, I think about like Herbie , who we all know is a Buddhist and, like, I feel like that's something that he talks about a lot.
Obviously he's like a musical giant. But I think when I've met people like Ron Carter, like a lot of the legends I've met, they don't move, like I'm the most killing musician. They move kind of like, I'm trying to be a good person And I'm curious still. And I'm childlike. I find them to be quite childlike when I meet a lot of the legends. And that's when I'm a wanna be like, just pure explorative and just stay alive and, and, and stay healthy.
[00:44:01] Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm. . and I don't know any of the context or know ever knew him, but while at The New School, there was a masterclass with Roy Hargrove, and I remember at The New School there was also such a pedestal for the young horn players who were the stars of the school.
And I remember a lot of them going up and playing and like all the ones that we all were like, oh, they're the best ones. And I remember they like all played a ton of notes. And I remember Roy Hargrove came up afterwards and was like, okay, that was great. I know you guys know your scales, but I didn't hear any music. You impressed me with your ability to play back these scales and play a lot of notes. But like, where was the soul? You could have done more for me in three notes. And I remember just like sitting in the back being like, oh, finally that makes me feel good.
[00:44:51] Melanie: Yeah. I mean, may he rest in peace. That was like one of his, like most treasured aspects of his playing and of his, being, he really could take a chorus of like three notes and the whole room would just be like that's where the magic really happens.
But it's so easy to go into autopilot of like, let me show everything that I know. Cause right now is is that moment, I think it's almost there's an element of privilege in being able to just say, I'm just going vibe. You know, Not feeling like you have to prove. 'cause sometimes this life is so hard that you, like you, sometimes you gotta prove something.
[00:45:25] Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:45:27] Melanie: that.
[00:45:27] Aaron: the wisdom is knowing when it's the time to use that, and when it's the time to meld into the background and serve what is there , and there's a lot of artistry in that. It's this book by John Miller Chernoff I mean, he's, a white musicologist, but it's a, a really important known book on like West African percussion music especially. But one of the key points in that book that he had gleaned from studying this music spending time with these people in these tribes for 20 years, was that it's not the change that you make in the music, it's when you make the change. With all that kind of trans music. He's like, that is the statement. It's not like, Ooh, look at that change that he made. It's like, when it happened and how that served, what was happening. And it's choice of when that is really some wisdom and some artistry. Yeah.
[00:46:15] Melanie: For
[00:46:15] Michaela: I know we're running out of time.
but I do feel like it's really important to touch on the. Idea and feeling behind the record that you made that I think personally is very important. Y’all Don’t (Really) Care About Black Women and musically, you remixed all of these songs made by just heavyweights Ella and Marlena Shaw and Billie Holiday.
So that alone is like such a thing to tackle that I think you did such an incredible job. I will always remember the night that I listened to it because I was home alone on a Friday night with our little girl, and she was maybe like seven months and I was drinking a little bit of wine and I put your record on and I was like, oh my god. And I listened to it again and I just had such a incredible experience. But musically it's important, but also your goal and your work with your music and outside of your music and just building your platform is to advocate for black women and black women artists. So can you share a little bit about that?
[00:47:20] Melanie: I mean, first of all, thank you for taking the time to check it out, and it means so much to me that you, you dug it and you know.
Y’all Don’t (Really) Care About Black Women this is an experience that I, as a black woman know very well. When I speak with my homegirls, we all find ourselves lamenting about the same things, whether it's wanting to get paid, what we deserve. You know, finding supportive love, being cared for, being taken care of with like, a sense of fragility and not always having to be the strong black women.
People are always like, oh yeah, strong black women, but you may not know that us strong black women are sick and tired of that, We're tired of being strong for everyone, to be the ones always like making everyone else feel okay and like trying to make ourselves small and like conform to a certain thing so that you're not uncomfortable.
We're tired of that. But also we we're in a society where, you don't wanna complain. Right. talking about that is not cute. But you know, like we established earlier, I'm not really invested in trying to appear cute. I'm just really care about speaking my reality and the reality of so many women.
And that's why I was really excited to name the project that even though it wasn't my original work, because the truth is, is that all of these women were talking about the same shit that myself and my homegirls are talking about. They're lamenting about the same things that like famous interview of Nina Simone, when, when she said the promoter didn't wanna pay her, she almost had to show up with a gun to shoot the person like Rihanna talking about, bitch, better have my money.
We're always talking about like getting what we need to survive to live quality life like everyone else. We want the same things and. when I was approached by Verve to make the project, it was in the beginning of lockdown. They had just murdered Breonna Taylor. And like it was just so apparent how her life really had no value.
We all had time to like pause and see that like I said, black women all over the world already are aware of that cause it's our daily reality. But seeing it like that was so jarring. I felt so uncomfortable that I was just like, wow, like y'all really don't care about us. And , now I'm sort of facing some repercussions of naming the project that, because now, I'm constantly almost having to be the voice of like, how, to care for black women.
What does that mean? You know? Like, I, I didn't even think about that aspect of like, once you name a project that, that's the name forever. And you're welcoming certain conversations now about that. So with time, like I find myself having to like, live up to that also, like finding ways to embody that without that having to be like my full identity.
now, I'm like, okay, if I'm introducing this conversation via my art, via my album, how am I manifesting this in the way that I'm moving? You know, like my little success in my little corner? How can I make space for other women of color now? I can't just talk the talk , now I gotta really walk the walk and commit to that. 'Cause it's really easy to like make a space for yourself and just like be in that space. I'm a lot like you Michaela, of like, I like to like research and like see what's happening behind. And I, I mentioned Terri Lyne already, but she's one of those people as a black woman that I'm really looking up to for like, when you have opportunities, when you have resources, when you have connections, well, what are you doing with it?
Is it just to make your life better or are you really trying to like forge change? I'm, I'm not saying I'm an abolitionist, I'm none of that. You know what I mean? I'm just a little artist. But what else am I gonna be talking about?
[00:51:09] Michaela: Is there ever a challenge in balancing the expectation that now you're like a spokeswoman for this aspect of your life that greatly informs how you move through this world, also just an artist and a woman that wants to express what she wants to express.
Is there ever a rub to kind of hold both those spaces and also care for yourself, carrying the weight of that responsibility?
[00:51:37] Melanie: I love that you asked that question because the, this title it's so many pieces to it 'cause it's not only challenging others, oh ya'll don't really care about black women, but it's also like, questioning myself and how I'm caring for myself as well, and like encouraging women of color to care for ourselves.
And so the way that I do that is by showing up honestly, by like simply saying, like I said, you know, sure I named this project this, but now there's another weight on me now for having to like articulate that and, like, that's not my full identity. That's how I kind of deal with that rub of now you're the spokesperson for black women now.
You know? It's like saying, sure, I did a lot of press stuff a few weeks ago and like I had to talk about the project every time. But I'm not trying to do no promo on caring for black women. I am the proof. My being is enough.
And I must say that someone that I spoke to when I was like putting the project together, who's not a woman of color, Meredith Monk, she's a mentor of mine.
She was a person that was like, don't try to take on the weight of having to have all the answers for this. Just make your art and speak your truth.
so I'll forever be really grateful to her and that's all I can do.
[00:52:45] Michaela: What do you use or fall back on in your life to help care for yourself when things might feel heavy or fraught? Like, Have you found different practices or resources or, relational things that have helped you care for yourself through that?
Especially then also being on tour and having to be interacting with people about this.
[00:53:04] Melanie: It varies. I'm a Buddhist. There was a time where I was very heavily invested in my chanting, and I was like really serious about it. And whenever I had to do really high pressure stuff like chanting really helped me get through. But past year or so, I kind of like fell off a bit on that.
But I find now my new medicine is rest.
[00:53:23] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:53:24] Melanie: Because we're in a society where it's like, work over work. Beyonce doesn't sleep. Why do you need sleep?
[00:53:30] Michaela: I hate that meme of like, Beyonce has 24 hours in the day. so do you. I'm like, yeah, but she's also got a lot of resources now. She's got nannies, she's got personal chefs.
[00:53:43] Melanie: Yes. A lot of things are being taken care of for Beyonce, okay? I'm sure. but yeah, I, I, you know, There's this concept, especially in black culture, of rest being almost viewed as radical because like the whole thing of like, oh, you gotta be the best, like as a black person, you gotta be the best in the class.
You gotta be the best dressed. You can't show up like this, you can't do that.
[00:54:02] Michaela: 'Cause you're a representative.
[00:54:04] Melanie: 'cause a representative, you know? And I'm grateful that, maybe it's partially 'cause of my age now where my body's like, you know what girl, you tired, you're gonna need to take a nap.
And like honoring that, there's this woman, she does this, this thing called like the Nap Ministries or something like that, where she like creates spaces for people to rest. Like She lays down yoga mats in like churches, whatever. And like she creates a safe space for people to come in for 40 minutes and just sleep.
And I find that when I can really give my body that, that is the space where I can wake up refreshed with fresh ideas with less anxiety. Confidence in myself to not feel like I have to please someone or like hit the quota for somebody. Something about rest gives that clarity, that helps me, that gives me the tools to navigate, you know, the challenges of being an artist that is, you know, sometimes one minute people love you next minute they're criticizing you. Like If you are fatigued and worn out, it's impossible for you to navigate that at least has it been impossible for me. And by the end of last year, I, I found myself very depressed. Y'all. I was, I was dark. Y'all all I could do was just like seek out refuge rest. Solitude. And like we're in March now, like I feel that depression sort of melting, you know? So I don't got it all figured out and it's definitely ebbs and flows and ups and downs and trial and error and stuff. But you know, maybe if you ask me this next year, maybe it would be a different answer. But right now the thing that is sustaining me is rest.
[00:55:44] Michaela: And that depression came after a year of promoting your record and performing, right?
[00:55:50] Melanie: It wore me out.
[00:55:51] Aaron: It's relentless.
[00:55:53] Melanie: It's relentless and nobody cares. Like nobody cares. The promoters don't care. The venues don't care. Your management don't care. I mean, sure you tell them, hey, management, I can't take on this stuff for a little while cause I'm tired, I'm burned out. They'll, do their best 'cause but at the, they got, they gotta get paid. you know what I mean? The world keeps going, so you really have to like, find moments for yourself. I found myself bringing my yoga mat on stage doing soundcheck 'cause they rush you to get to soundcheck, but you the vocalist, so they, they gotta, they gotta check every single drum.
Aaron, they gotta, they gotta check the base, the symbol, the high hat, and you just standing there tired. So now I, I bring my yoga mat on stage and I do my yoga flow while everyone else is checking, so that at least I have this like, moment for myself in the midst of me, like waiting. So little things like that is like where I find little windows of, of rest and, and clarity.
[00:56:49] Michaela: That's a new one.
[00:56:50] Melanie: Mm-hmm.
[00:56:51] Michaela: 'Cause I just stand up there holding my guitar while I'm like, okay, snare. Okay. Kick.
[00:56:56] Aaron: Nobody needs a snare drum in the monitors. We need it. Stop asking.
[00:57:00] Michaela: I'm like, no, I need nothing in the monitor besides myself, please.
[00:57:04] Melanie: That's it.
[00:57:05] Aaron: I say That at the drums. I'm like, I need acoustic guitar and voice.
They're like, no kick? I'm like, no. They're like, no bass? I'm like, no acoustic guitar and vocals. That's it. I know you got faders on all of those. Just pull 'em all down.
[00:57:17] Melanie: so.
[00:57:17] Michaela: My gosh.
[00:57:18] Aaron: no, This has been amazing.
[00:57:20] Michaela: It's been incredible to get to talk to you and hear about your journey.
Is there anything that you feel like we missed or that you wanna kind of leave as a departing thought?
[00:57:30] Melanie: I think you guys are really testament to the kinds of lives, truthful lives. Like one can live by being true to yourselves. You know, taking care of yourselves as individuals, taking care of each other. I admire any musician that can also birth life and like, sustain someone else's life. What? Sustaining our own life is enough. Damn it. I just wanna say, you know, congrats to you guys. Kudos to you guys. I wish this podcast all the best and I hope that people who need this kind of information will find it.
[00:57:57] Michaela: Thank you.
[00:57:58] Aaron: Thanks, Melanie.
[00:57:59] Michaela: We are so glad that you exist and that you're creating the art and sharing the messages that you do. And I am so grateful that we are still in touch after all these years. So thank you.
And I just also wanna shout out your mom because you mentioned her, but , she used to always, come to school with you. So I got to meet her many times and I have a very close relationship with my mom and always brought my mom on tour with me. And so showed Aaron a video of you celebrating your mom on your Instagram and recording with her.
[00:58:30] Melanie: yeah.
[00:58:31] Michaela: I just think it's really beautiful and I love mother daughter relationships.
[00:58:34] Melanie: Yeah. Shout out to mothers. Thank you, moms.
[00:58:36] Aaron: Well, Melanie, thank you so much. It was so great to talk and, see inside your brain for a little bit.
[00:58:41] Melanie: Thanks y'all.
[00:58:41] Michaela: Thank you.