Nicole Atkins has released 6 records on labels such as Columbia, Razor & Tie, and Thirty Tigers, toured with Stevie Nicks, David Byrne, Fatboy Slim, Nick Cave, and Spoon, and has side project with Jim Sclavunos of Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds. We talk to Nicole about remaining child-like in your creativity, understanding that there are a lot of chances in life, catching the wind when and where it blows, enjoyment vs achievement, stepping up in service to others when you're stuck in your own head, keeping creative friends, and a whole lot more.
Nicole Atkins has released 6 records on labels such as Columbia, Razor & Tie, and Thirty Tigers, toured with Stevie Nicks, David Byrne, Fatboy Slim, Nick Cave, and Spoon, and has side project with Jim Sclavunos of Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds. We talk to Nicole about remaining child-like in your creativity, understanding that there are a lot of chances in life, catching the wind when and where it blows, enjoyment vs achievement, stepping up in service to others when you're stuck in your own head, keeping creative friends, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of The Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:12] Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are almost to the end of our second year and so glad to still be here. Thankful you are here with us.
[00:00:21] Aaron: Yeah, because we wouldn't be able to have a show without you guys.
So with that, we have a few simple asks before we keep going. A lot of people don't know that streaming podcasts pays absolutely no money whatsoever. So the way to make money from a podcast is to sell commercials for a, maybe a morning sports powder drink or a mattress or some other thing like that. And we don't want to interrupt these conversations.
So instead we started a Patreon and over there we have all the normal Patreon things. We have advanced notice of our guests. We have one on one coaching with Michaela or I, if there are spots available. And it's growing and evolving all the time. If that interests you and you'd like to support our little fledgling show, there's a link below in the show notes.
Secondly would be to please subscribe or follow on whatever platform you use to listen or stream or watch on YouTube. And lastly you're a longtime listener, just pay your favorite episode forward. Chances are you found out about it through word of mouth.
So however you heard about the show. Just pass along your favorite episode that same way and it's a great way for us to get new listeners and more guests
[00:01:25] Michaela: Yeah, and one of the things that we really pride ourselves on for this podcast is that we're not music journalists We're musicians ourselves. So we don't even think of these really as interviews, but more as conversations Like we're sitting around the dinner table Just sharing the honest vulnerable realities of what it is to build a lifelong career around your art You
[00:01:44] Aaron: And what that reality is, is that it is completely insane and there's so much that is outside of our control.
And so with that, we focus our conversations on what is within our control, being our headspace some habits, some routines. And we've boiled that all down to the underlying question. What do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity? And today we got to ask that question of Nicole Atkins.
[00:02:09] Michaela: Nicole is a Nashville based singer songwriter performer. She's originally from New Jersey. She has a long and very interesting career, starting out signing with Columbia Records and having her release delayed because Rick Rubin wanted to change something. And we decided, Dive in super deep on all of this.
What are the ups and downs like of navigating the business side and the challenging moments where your phone's not ringing and just staying the course because this is what you want to do.
[00:02:41] Aaron: Yeah. Nicole is probably One of the few people we've had on this podcast that I've spent a significant amount of time in a van with, I toured with Nicole behind her record, Good Night Ronda Lee for most of 2017 It was a formative time in both of our lives. She mentioned it was one of her first sober tours. The back half of that touring, I became sober. It's a big monumental change for all of us. And so it was nice to have her on here to be able to go deep and She just brings such breadth of experience.
She studied visual art in college and that disappeared when she signed with Columbia and started to come back for her in her practice right around the time that we were touring together. And now is a big part of her life. And she talks about a creativity workshop that she's about to go teach in Mexico.
And she brings great experience from the road with people such as like Stevie next. David Byrne, Fatboy Slim, Nick Cave, and the Bad Seeds. She's worked with Spoon. It's a whole long career. This conversation is so grounded in yourself and persistence and just making art and creating because that's what you love to do.
So without further ado, here's our conversation with Nicole Atkins.
[00:03:49] Michaela: Thank you so much for agreeing to come on
[00:03:52] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:03:55] Michaela: a career in music essentially. Um, and how you,
[00:03:59] Aaron: yeah, uh,
[00:04:02] Michaela: figuring
it out and how you keep learning to, um, take care of yourself is one of the things we, we do.
[00:04:11] Aaron: Yeah. All of those Yeah. the other part is like how you stay creative when all of a sudden, like your livelihood is completely dependent on your creativity,
[00:04:20] Nicole: that's been a big thing coming up for me lately that I'm like You know, I want to make a record when I'm inspired not because like, okay, you got to make another record because your Tory markets are overdone, there are ways I'm finding to keep saying, and to keep profitable.
[00:04:37] Aaron: Do tell.
[00:04:38] Nicole: You can sign up for my course for a hundred dollars. No, I'm kidding.
[00:04:42] riverside_aaron_+ michaela_raw-synced-video-cfr_the_other 22 hours _0237: like, oh,
[00:04:43] Nicole: how everybody's doing that though now on like, Facebook or, Instagram. here's a way to stay sane or a way to make money, sign up for my course for 120. And I'm like,
[00:04:53] Aaron: become a profitable producer in four weeks. Just pay for my course and it's like
[00:04:57] Nicole: That's how you
become a profitable producer.
[00:04:59] Aaron: You have a
[00:05:00] Nicole: Have a course.
[00:05:01] Aaron: you to be exactly.
[00:05:02] Michaela: Yeah.
I mean I have a course
[00:05:04] Nicole: Do you?
[00:05:05] Aaron: Yeah, but you don't
[00:05:06] Nicole: Good.
[00:05:07] Aaron: you don't promise like get rich overnight.
You probably know creativity and like the art
[00:05:10] Michaela: No, I've been like music teacher for
[00:05:12] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:05:13] Michaela: years. I teach lessons, but then I started teaching like songwriting coaching.
[00:05:17] Nicole: Cool. I want to do it.
[00:05:19] Michaela: I tell everybody this is not to become a professional songwriter. If you think I'm going to get your song to anybody
[00:05:26] Nicole: yeah,
[00:05:26] Michaela: I'm not interested in the music industry business. So this isn't like an in or any like professional advice. This is strictly
[00:05:33] Nicole: how to get going.
[00:05:34] Michaela: creativity,
[00:05:35] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:05:36] Michaela: honestly like, spiritual therapeutic practices. They
[00:05:39] Nicole: I remember when my first record came out I was losing my voice on tour all the time and Because I never toured before and so I started taking voice lessons and my voice teacher. Her name's Wendy Parr Man, she was like my spiritual guru. was like fuck these voice lessons.
Just keep talking to me
[00:05:55] Michaela: I started taking voice lessons when I was 10 years old and
[00:05:58] Nicole: oh wow
[00:05:59] Michaela: and got my degree in voice and vocal performance and really studied and like became a vocal coach and I've written books for Mel Bay. around the time of 2019, I think when my, record Desert Dove came out, I started losing my voice all the time.
[00:06:14] Nicole: Wow.
[00:06:14] Michaela: and I was like, this doesn't make sense
[00:06:16] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:06:17] Michaela: I'm like a trained vocalist. I know how to take care of myself.
it
[00:06:21] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:06:22] Michaela: would just completely disappear. And I went and got scoped.
And they were like, your vocal cords are pristine. was a bunch of allergies. But what I ultimately figured out was like,
[00:06:32] Nicole: It's mental.
[00:06:33] Michaela: mental.
[00:06:33] Nicole: Yeah. I had a really difficult relationship my first tour. And then when we broke up, I never lost my voice again.
[00:06:41] Michaela: Whoa.
[00:06:42] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:06:43] Michaela: Yeah, it's interesting because it can be like some weird subconscious self sabotage or like self protection or feeling of unworthiness when there's big opportunities coming. It's just there's so many things that can be.
cause I was just flabbergasted. like, this isn't from damage. This is crazy. So yeah, everything's
[00:07:01] Nicole: it's almost like the less you think about it, the better off you'll be. when you lose your voice and people are like, just try to relax And I guess after you've done it enough, you realize, okay, I'm just going to not think about it and relax.
That's even like sometimes. I don't really warm up before shows, if I'm in a good headspace, I just want to remain there. I don't want to think about my voice and then start to nitpick it. So I'll just grab a pillow and scream into it and be like, rawr. Okay.
It works. Let's go.
Yeah. That's hilarious.
Yeah.
[00:07:33] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:07:34] Michaela: So you're at your parents house for a long period of time right now.
[00:07:37] Nicole: So yeah, five more days and then I go upstate for a gig and then I go back down to Nashville for a couple days and then a gig and then I go to Mexico to teach creativity.
Which is really cool. It's this place called Modern Elder Academy.
it's a midlife wisdom school. And it was started by this guy Chip Conley. he helped start uh, Airbnb in his mid fifties. So like they call them the modern elder and there's like a bunch of people that follow him called chipsters, for his entrepreneurial wisdom.
a friend of mine is managing the place and she worked at a different hotel in total Santos, Mexico. And so when she switched, I would always trade a gig to stay there. when you're a working class musician, making friends with people that do cool things. That's how you get to afford to do the fancy shit.
[00:08:25] Michaela: Yep.
[00:08:26] Nicole: And, uh,
[00:08:26] riverside_aaron_+ michaela_raw-synced-video-cfr_the_other 22 hours _0237: sure.
[00:08:27] Nicole: I'm an illustrator too. And when she was at the normal hotel, I would draw pictures of people by the pool just to pass time. And she was like, Oh, I
[00:08:35] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:08:35] Nicole: used to love painting. And then she started painting all the time. And when she moved over to MEA, she was like, how do I do this more at my job?
And I was like, make it part of the curriculum. So in the summer, every summer from like July to September we started the program last year, it's called refresh. So all year at this place, they have workshops where it's like, a week intensive workshop with the lady that started Spanx or some famous Yogi or all these different people.
And then in the summer, it's just calm, chill. Relax. And if you want to take a music class, you can. And if you want to take an art class, you can. And so we book all the artists and musicians. And last year it was me. I was doing art my friend Binky Griptite from the Dab Kings, he came and he did the music
we just made it up as we went. And it was really effective and fun. And the best part of it was like, when I went down, it's pretty remote down there. It's like the most Southern part of Mexico I brought. All of these guitars and a little Calibase, a ukulele and Acoustasonic, a Dobro, like all of these things didn't check any of them.
And my husband's a tour manager. And I was like, look at all this. I got this through with no baggage fees. And I left it all down there. there's like a staff of maybe. 12 people, and they would take the art and music classes. So now we went back in January and they're all playing music.
They're all taking guitar lessons. like music is a big part of the place now.
[00:09:59] riverside_aaron_+ michaela_raw-synced-video-cfr_the_other 22 hours _0237: That's so cool.
[00:10:01] Nicole: I'm excited. And so this year I'm going and my friend April Centrone, who's a, she's a drummer. She's a, Middle Eastern, expert drummer.
she teaches on her um, Instagram stuff.
at like Carnegie Hall and stuff too.
[00:10:15] Nicole: you guys should definitely check it out sometime when you
can.
[00:10:17] Aaron: for sure.
[00:10:18] Nicole: hmm.
[00:10:18] Aaron: Want to know how you got all that on a plane without paying baggage,
[00:10:22] Nicole: I don't, I checked the Dobro. So it was one. I checked the Dobro, carried the Acoustasonic, but put it in a big case with the ukulele and the little Calibase. you ever see the movie Labyrinth?
[00:10:34] Aaron: Yeah. It's
[00:10:35] Nicole: You've never seen Labyrinth, Mikayla? Oh my god, I'm excited for you.
It's so good. Remember when she's like, in her room, and the guy's trying to trick her? And that little muppet with all the shit on her back is Come on, I have stuff! That's me.
[00:10:49] Aaron: you. Yeah.
[00:10:50] Nicole: That was me in the airport.
[00:10:51] Michaela: Oh Yeah, it sucked, but I don't have to do it again.
Yeah.
[00:10:56] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:10:56] Aaron: That's a really cool thing though that you the seeds you planted there and now like
[00:11:00] Nicole: I love it
[00:11:01] Aaron: and all of a sudden everybody, you know, they have like a little hotel band happening.
[00:11:04] Nicole: I know when they're making dinner like two of the guys Lorenzo and Octavio, they're just like playing guitar while everybody's getting their food.
[00:11:11] Aaron: Yeah. I
[00:11:11] Nicole: It's cool
[00:11:12] Aaron: Cool. you're teaching art, art then again this time?
[00:11:16] Nicole: I'm teaching music this time and then they have this couple that does ceramics and clay So they're gonna be teaching people how to like flat build and stuff.
[00:11:24] Aaron: so correct me if I'm wrong, I know you studied visual art
Am I remembering correctly that like, part of your life kind of disappeared for a little bit when we were touring together I
[00:11:32] Nicole: hmm. Yeah, that's when it came back
[00:11:34] Aaron: in the van. It's like
[00:11:35] Nicole: yeah, I went to school for illustration because I knew I was bad at school I didn't know back then that I was ADD. I just thought I was dumb. So I didn't want to mess up music with school because I loved it too much and I knew if I was bad at it it might like do something bad I went to school for illustration and I became a muralist and like did faux finishing and stuff in people's houses.
And then when I got signed, I stopped doing that. And then, 15 years went by, never did art much really at all. And then I quit drinking and that's when you and I toured together. That was, I think one of my first sober tours. And when you quit drinking, there's so much time to fill up, you know, you're in the van, You know, you have hours before the show.
And so I just started drawing again. And then I remember posting a picture of a cat and somebody was like, can I buy that? And I was like, yeah, you can.
[00:12:24] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:12:24] Nicole: So
[00:12:25] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:12:26] Nicole: art every day. It's like part of just my day.
it's funny. Cause like songwriting is so much harder for me.
It's, catching that inspiration when it comes.
I'm not a person that sits down and it's like, now I'm going to write a song, you know? Yeah. But with art, I could just sit down and put some colors on a page and read the tea leaves. You know, Because It's more for me. It's not, you know, so much for, something that's a statement that's going to be put out to the world.
[00:12:51] Aaron: Yeah. Do you still feel that even though you've started to sell your art again, monetize your art? flow still happens
[00:12:58] Nicole: Yeah, that flow still happens because I paint whatever I want. And if somebody happens to like it, but as far as like music, you know, I've been working on this kind of style for a while and it's always evolving. Like all of my records always sound different because it's what I'm into at the time.
with art, it's whatever I want it to be. And with music, it's like an idea will come to me and then I have to pick that apart and then put it together, know,
[00:13:24] Michaela: like
with music, especially being this far into your music career, that there's still that how is this gonna be received and fit in my line of work that I've already done so that my fans will still be there? Like, part
[00:13:37] Nicole: sometimes,
you know,
I think that the thing with that, that I don't worry about too much is my fans. I think that they're there because of my voice, cause they like my voice and they're always excited about, what different kinds of style or this or that, but I have to do what I like first and foremost, or I can't do it.
That's why I was even saying like, I'm glad I never had a big hit, so I don't have to keep repeating it.
[00:14:01] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:14:02] Nicole: would just get so bored.
[00:14:03] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:14:04] Aaron: You're like, cool, I'm going to play this for the next 40 years.
[00:14:07] Nicole: Yeah, There's songs from my first record that I could sing them till the day I die. Like, They're just such a part of me, that I love them, but then there's some from the third record that I'm like, man, that was weird. Okay. You know?
[00:14:20] Aaron: That was a phase.
[00:14:21] Nicole: Yeah, it was like,
totally from yourself and sometimes it's a collaboration with either a producer or another songwriter or a bandmate that's like, this is us having fun.
[00:14:32] Michaela: Yeah, we had John Doe from the band X, an incredible solo career, but he was talking about different songs where he was like, I just started to try to do the things that I was listening to and I can't, was it like Al Green or something that he was being inspired by?
No, it
[00:14:45] Aaron: was some Marvin Gaye stuff. Okay. And
[00:14:47] Nicole: Interesting.
[00:14:48] Michaela: and he was like, and I listened back to it and I'm like, have tried that
[00:14:51] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:14:53] Aaron: didn't
[00:14:53] Nicole: that's like,
[00:14:54] Aaron: that the way we thought we did.
[00:14:55] Nicole: yeah, that's like my King Crimson Genesis phase. That was really weird, but it also kind of reflected the chaoticness of my life at that time,
Hurricane Sandy just happened I moved out of New York because I was moving to Memphis, my parents live on a river.
And then there's the ocean right behind it. So I moved all my stuff in the garage and it just got swallowed. And
then my producer that did my first record toward Johansson from Sweden, he called me and he was like, you should come out here and make another record. You'll have a place to live and something to do.
he made my record for free, which was really nice of him.
[00:15:30] Michaela: Wow. Amazing.
[00:15:31] Nicole: Yeah. He's like, Columbia paid me enough. You get two for one. I was like, Awesome.
[00:15:35] Michaela: Was that when you had parted ways with Columbia?
[00:15:37] Nicole: no, that was my third record.
[00:15:39] Michaela: Okay.
[00:15:40] Nicole: Yeah. So I think that was after um, my second album was on a label called Razor and Tie that ended up becoming a new metal label
[00:15:48] Aaron: How did that affect the release?
[00:15:50] Nicole: yeah, it was doing really well. And then all the staff was, let go. And we, it was replaced with a bunch of people that were really into butt rock. And they were like, I don't get this. I'm like, of course you don't,
[00:16:00] Aaron: And
[00:16:01] Nicole: no umlauts in my genre.
[00:16:04] Aaron: it's funny. I never knew that about the second record. I know
and maybe this story has been twisted in my head but with Neptune City, didn't that come out when Rick Rubin came in at Columbia and it got like shelves it came out the same day as Adele's record.
Am I
[00:16:17] Nicole: um, it wasn't the same, it was right before Adele's first record, but it was supposed to come out on a day that I did this Amex commercial that was going to be out during US Open.
a week before the record was coming out, it was like, Rick Rubin's taking a, thing off the schedule to fix something.
And the commercial came out and I had no music online because they took it all down
everybody was like, is that an actress? And I was just like no, it's not. It was horrible. the second record was getting written and that was all the same time that Adele was just blowing up.
So I just decided to leave.
[00:16:52] Aaron: Mm-Hmm?
[00:16:52] Nicole: Just wanted to work,
[00:16:53] Aaron: Mm-Hmm?
[00:16:54] Nicole: Was like, write me 40 songs. And I'm like, okay, here's 53. And it was like months until I heard why don't you still keep writing? But that was the only feedback. So I was just like, let's go.
I think that's what this podcast is about.
22 hours when you're just put on ice, the worst feeling in the world because you can't do what you do.
[00:17:13] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:17:14] Nicole: yeah, I didn't care where I was at for a label. I just wanted to work.
[00:17:17] Aaron: You have these people that are in a position. Whose job is to put you to work and to build your career and make it a thing and closing all the doors and being like, oh wait, just wait just wait
[00:17:28] Nicole: lot of people that go to major labels, I think, have that problem, you know. there was a lot of good things about it. Being on a platform that was to a broader audience was great, and I'm very grateful and thankful for that. But it's very frustrating when, you're writing songs and they're like, Maybe it could be like the new Alanis Morissette. What?
[00:17:49] Michaela: that's, one of the things that we like to share on this podcast. our target audience is just other musicians, but
[00:17:55] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:17:55] Michaela: lot of just music fans also listen to this. And it is like a pulling back of the curtain And for other artists of like people's career path is not dependent on just how good their music is.
There's
[00:18:07] Nicole: no.
[00:18:08] Michaela: many variables of what person got the job at the label or the booking agent or the management or what lucky thing happened or what unlucky thing happened. And it's maddening. You hear stories like all the time of artists getting big deals and thinking it's the moment.
And then. The person just loses interest or staff changeover or, booking agents who sign you and then won't book you shows.
[00:18:31] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:18:32] Michaela: the fuck did you sign me? Like,
we just want to work.
[00:18:35] Nicole: yeah,
[00:18:36] Michaela: Have other prerogatives.
I always think of it like, for us, our career path, our art, everything is we have this one chance, this one life, and
[00:18:45] Nicole: yeah,
[00:18:46] Michaela: That goes by that we're not getting to do it, we're like, we're losing time, but they are filled up with of artists
[00:18:53] Nicole: yeah,
they have. Tons of chances
[00:18:55] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:18:56] Nicole: bank, also though, I think that it's good for us to remember sure, we might only get one life, but there's so many chances, you know, and if you can block out all that other, this person screwed this up for me, or my booking agent's a dream killer, you know, like all these things, because they really are.
If you don't like being a booking agent, please quit, because
[00:19:16] Michaela: Yeah,
[00:19:16] Nicole: a dream killer. And if you're listening, this is about you.
[00:19:20] Michaela: yeah.
[00:19:20] Nicole: Um, so, that's the thing. Like if we can just tune out all that noise
making the work is the only thing that we can control,
just keep, surrounding yourself with not yes, people, but
people that inspire you to get excited, to be like, Ooh, I can't wait to get home and finish that,
you know?
[00:19:39] Michaela: And like you said, not thinking. That was my chance there is such a mentality of you only get one shot and like, I struggle with that of feeling like I dwell in the past. And I remember we had Sean Langhorne Slim on this podcast and this conversation comes up a lot of my horrid experience with a big time booking agent who, He did a 180 on me when I told him I was pregnant and basically was just like literally said there goes the whole summer before he said congratulations.
And then sat and told me how hard it was going to be for me. I talked to Sean on the phone after the podcast and he was like, you know, Michaela, it really sucks that happened to you. And he was like, but, there is that saying of don't let, or people live rent free in your mind like
[00:20:23] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:20:23] Michaela: point let it go he's
[00:20:25] Nicole: have to say
what's next,
[00:20:26] Michaela: Yeah, and I'm
[00:20:27] Nicole: and it's not that guy.
[00:20:29] Michaela: but sometimes I'm angry
[00:20:30] Nicole: Yeah, and that's the thing too, get angry, but don't live in it.
because it's not about talent. it's about which way the wind blows. And if you keep putting yourself out there, you're going to catch a wind, at some point. You just don't know with what, like my first mentor was when I was 34 and it was the drummer of Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, Jim Scalvunos. He was the first person to tell me that I wasn't old I remember when I signed to Columbia, Donnie Einer was like, you're 27, we signed you, you're fucking old. And then he spilled his drink down his shirt. And then I grabbed a straw and I was like, you want me to drink that off your shirt?
And he's like, fuck you! And then he got fired, thankfully, after like 20 years. So that was lucky. That was lucky for me,
That's another reason I don't drink anymore, because I have a lot more discretion in what I say. But looking back on that, that was a good drunk moment.
I'm proud of it. but Yeah. so this guy, Jim Sklavunos he was like, you're not old. He's like, I didn't get my first full time job in music till I was in my forties, Nick Cave wasn't able to like, make money from his music till he was in his fifties. and I listen to those stories and it makes me calmer like, what do I want out of all of this?
I want to have a good time. I want to learn things and I want to have a good time and I want to not be broke. I don't need a lot of stuff, just so long as I'm not living in this room for the rest of my life, I've done a lot of time here.
[00:21:53] Aaron: do, you know, Mary go Shay.
[00:21:54] Nicole: Yes. I love hearing her stories.
[00:21:56] Aaron: Amazing. So
she's the queen of saying like one sentence and just having it rock your world.
[00:22:00] Nicole: I know.
[00:22:01] Aaron: You need to have patience with your art and persistence with your business.
[00:22:05] Nicole: That's so true.
[00:22:06] Aaron: don't rush your art and just like, keep going.
[00:22:08] Nicole: That's so true. The persistence in the business though is very hard because when you do get to a point where you're like, I don't want to talk to a business person,
I hate them, cause I remember in the beginning I was like, these guys are my friends.
[00:22:21] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:22:22] Nicole: I'm like, I guess I have very, you know,
I'm tough, but like, I have an innocent mind, you know, when somebody tells me they're my friend, I believe them, and that was really hard.
To deal with in the beginning when I was younger. so that's the thing. Like with the business, there's so much more that we have to do now with social media, And like, I have to remind myself, okay, this selfie I'm taking of myself and I feel like a fucking asshole. It's part of my job and I don't have money to hire somebody to take my photo for
me, you know? And then I'm on the street and people are walking by like, God, no, trust me.
I know I'm an asshole,
[00:22:58] Michaela: but it's part of the job.
I think of like how many people I've seen post like a day in the life on tour or whatever and I enjoy those videos. I like seeing them, but they clearly have somebody to do it for them. And
[00:23:09] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:23:10] Michaela: I remember I,
went on tour with the Wood Brothers. And like, it was my first longer tour by myself without family,
[00:23:17] Michaela: I drove myself
no baby, no husband.
And I was playing solo and I was chasing their bus. I started out with so much energy and excitement. And I
[00:23:25] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:23:26] Michaela: to be playing shows again. And I was like, I'm going to do a day in the life video. this will be so comical. my Subaru, like pulled up against
[00:23:33] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:23:34] Michaela: bus and trailer and me like rolling my merch boxes in by myself.
And I tried to do it like. For a minute and I was like, I look so stupid.
[00:23:42] Nicole: Yeah. You're like doing like the hand on the suitcase and
[00:23:45] Michaela: a tripod. And if I did, I'd feel even dumber. And like, just like, nevermind.
[00:23:50] Nicole: the, yeah. It makes everything twice as long. Like I've tried to do those process videos of my drawings. then the camera falls down and then the painting gets messed up. And I'm just like, and then I'll just post that. they end in like, God damn it. And then I'm like, that's funny. I'll just post that.
[00:24:06] Aaron: Aaron Lee has when his, this most recent record came out and you could tell he's sets up his chair in front of the camera and he's like sitting down and he's like getting a settled and he's like, ah, fuck.
And he forgot something. He goes reach back. And like the chair just like
[00:24:19] Nicole: Everything falls.
[00:24:20] Aaron: Yeah. And he just posted that. And it was brilliant.
[00:24:23] Nicole: the other day we had to post something for my tour for September and I was in a pool. How does there just so happen to be a thing floating that looks like a microphone? And I was like, all right, I'm just going to do this right now and that's going to be it. And if it doesn't work, I'm not doing it.
And I'm like breaking news. And then there's a dog behind me and I'm like, yeah, everybody goes, and then. The dog walks away, but I'm just like, damn it. Here you go. Boom.
[00:24:48] Aaron: I think they work because you're just being real.
[00:24:50] Nicole: It's nice
too when I can get my parents involved in some of the videos if I'm visiting them. they don't even have to do anything and they're just funny.
[00:24:57] Michaela: But I wanted to go back to what you were saying of like your naive mind of the painful realization that some of the business people are not actually your friends.
I had coffee with a friend yesterday and we were swapping stories and she was sharing, similar stuff of like the talk of Oh my God, I love your music.
I want to support you. Like, What I heard from my booking agent, when I sign an artist, I sign them for life. We go through the ups and downs
[00:25:20] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:25:21] Michaela: all that stuff. I'm careful because I don't want to vilify industry people.
[00:25:25] Michaela: Some business people are incredibly wonderful
[00:25:28] Nicole: Yes.
[00:25:29] Michaela: I also worked at a record label. So
[00:25:32] Nicole: I did too.
[00:25:33] Michaela: Oh, nice.
I feel like you get a different perspective, but there is something very real. When you're an artist trying to build a career, having to try to remember that they are businesses,
they work, for businesses the profit, the money, the business dealings really run that.
And I think it can be emotionally painful when you do have moments where you're like, wait, but you told me,
even like with music journalists, I've felt that where I've, or like radio people who've Supported me, and then the next record won't even respond to an email. And I'm like, but I thought we were And I'm like, oh, that's not how this works.
[00:26:08] Nicole: It's business. I think I was more so talking like in the beginning, when I had that first wave of there was a certain business person that two of them actually that I was, you know, with her, Eight years. And like, that's a long time. I was like, you know, they were family.
[00:26:24] Michaela: Yeah,
[00:26:24] Nicole: then it's like, Oh, we can't do that. And I was just like devastated because I talked to them every day. I talked to them more than my partner or more than anybody. So
[00:26:33] Michaela: yeah.
[00:26:34] Nicole: that was a really hard thing. And I think that's why I think a lot of people quit if the first thing doesn't work out,
[00:26:40] Michaela: Mm-Hmm? . Mm-Hmm. And mine was really, Weird because in my mind, my first thing worked out, but to a big corporation, it was like, okay, 40 something thousand copies is not that great.
Yep.
[00:26:52] Nicole: You know, I was just like, that's 40, 000 people,
[00:26:55] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:26:57] Nicole: too, because when I was making that record in Sweden, my third record after Hurricane Sandy, I got the David Byrne book and I'm reading it And then I'm in it and I'm like, what the fuck?
And he put in about me and Teddy Thompson's records about how, if we had more ownership of our music, then 40, 000 copies would have been a great success. You know, But since a corporation owns almost all of it, it's considered a failure. It's not millions. That was a weird day.
I was like, cool, David Byrne mentioned me in a book, but then I was like, oh no, i'm a shitty example of things gone wrong. I think that's a lot of my life is just feeling very conflicted all the time and trying to find ways to get myself out of that mindset, I don't know if you were there, Aaron, when we did this, When I quit drinking, I went to Bonnaroo and I met Michael Kiwanuka, who like was my favorite record at the time.
he was like, Oh man, we're playing at 3rd and Lindsley tomorrow. I had a band practice and he was like, Oh, I wish we could all just get a drink sometime and, have a jam.
And I'm thinking like, I have never jammed. I mean, I used to jam when I was like in high school and college and stuff, but I'm not a jammer. I like parts,
I thought about it and I was like, Hey, if you want to stop at our rehearsal after. Your show, come on by. And they all did.
And I was like, I don't drink. I'm throwing a party with a bunch of strangers and it's a jam. Fuck. It was the most fun time ever.
[00:28:20] Michaela: Oh.
[00:28:20] Nicole: we had so much fun I just drank a bunch of Red Bulls and, everybody was drinking beers and we just played cover songs all night and just talked about music.
And it was like, I forgot about making music for music's sake, just for fun. And then I remembered it and that really helped me when people are like, I just think it's amazing that you're still doing it and it, right. that comment is just like, do you know what that sounds like?
That would be like me being like, Oh, you still work for life insurance. It's amazing. You're still doing that.
[00:28:49] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:50] Nicole: I make a living off of this.
[00:28:51] Michaela: There's also so many assumptions. write essays on Substack and I actually wrote one about this last week because it was like, those sayings of Oh, are you still doing it? Or that's so great you're still doing it. Or Man, great show, but I wish there were more people here for you.
[00:29:06] Nicole: oof.
[00:29:07] Michaela: know, like,
[00:29:07] Nicole: I got the good one, for that. a lot of my fans go to my shows alone and they're like, Can we just keep you as our little secret? I'm like, please stop doing
that.
[00:29:14] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:29:16] Nicole: and this guy and he's really nice but like very intense and I feel like a lot of people that say that you're so underrated, there should be more people here and I just looked at him and I might have offended him but I was like, Ricky, how long have you been coming to my shows?
And he's like, since Neptune City and I'm like, you're always by yourself. So I think this is more of a you problem than a me problem. Y'know, bring some friends! Or like, y'know like, go on Bumble! Find a friend!
[00:29:43] Michaela: But there's this like assumption that if you not super famous or not playing massive shows that somehow
you're not successful or you don't have a good life or
[00:29:56] Nicole: Yeah. I have an awesome life.
[00:29:57] Michaela: I struggle with that of like, wait, how much is like conditioning in my mind when I feel unsatisfied with things?
[00:30:04] Nicole: Mm.
[00:30:04] Michaela: Much is true dissatisfaction? Because I'm like, is it because everyone says you should have bigger and bigger? Because otherwise I'm like, we have a beautiful home that we own.
[00:30:13] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:30:14] Michaela: our studio. We have a family. I get to play music and shows
[00:30:19] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:30:20] Michaela: people how to do it.
Aaron makes records. Like That seems pretty fucking
[00:30:23] Nicole: pretty dope to me. Yeah, yeah
[00:30:27] Michaela: there's this like pity of I wish you were doing better. Wow. You're still doing that.
[00:30:30] Nicole: it's if I ever go on X. if I see my name I know what they're answering who's the most underrated singer and I'm like, that's gonna be my tombstone but the thing is to remember it's like all these little things add up, I was doing a tour with Guster and just my drummer and I love them and their fans are amazing but I just remember like being in the same, little hotels with me and Danny and Just being like, one of those is that all there is moments eating like a Subway sandwich, and then I get a call.
Do you want to open for Stevie Nicks? I'm 45 and I've never done an arena before and now it's happening that's not why I still do it to get the cooler thing that happens when you keep doing it I keep doing it because I love doing it.
I can't imagine doing anything else. that was the worst feeling I ever felt was when it was like, am I not supposed to be doing this? there was a period where no one was calling for the record you toured with me, Aaron for good night Ronda lady,
Was months where it was just like Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope. And it's one of my favorite records I've ever made. And like, Then finally, someone put it out and it was on all these best of end of year lists. for me, it doesn't feel like a determination.
[00:31:40] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:31:40] Nicole: Feels like I want to continue to live a life doing the things I love.
[00:31:44] Michaela: Mm-Hmm.
[00:31:45] Nicole: Sometimes I get really sad. And That's a bigger thing for me to get over, is depression stuff.
[00:31:51] riverside_aaron_+ michaela_raw-synced-video-cfr_the_other 22 hours _0237: Mm-Hmm.
[00:31:52] Nicole: well,
How do I get to the next level? The next level will just happen, if you keep working at it long enough. That's not really the goal for me. The goal is to like, enjoy what I'm doing.
If I didn't enjoy what I was doing, I wouldn't do it.
like any job, there's some days you're like, fuck this, what am I doing?
[00:32:07] Aaron: when you're, in those valleys where you're like, what am I doing, questioning things, you know, you're like, cool. Every decision I've made in my life has led to this moment right here.
[00:32:16] Nicole: yeah,
[00:32:17] Aaron: you do to, that you found
[00:32:18] Nicole: to counter it.
[00:32:19] Aaron: that?
[00:32:20] Nicole: I have to just call friends, I don't like to isolate because then my mind will spin out into a million things that are just so far from truth.
I'll just call a friend and be like, yo, I'm freaking out and I can't get out of bed. Can you please come over?
And within a few minutes, I feel better, and also like helping other people or younger artists, get going or get out of their shit or tell them how it is. That gives me a sense of purpose, to get out of my own head.
As life, like when you were feeling like you were gonna drink, you call somebody.
Like when I'm feeling like I want to give up, I call somebody, or I'll read a book, you know, I'll go for a walk. You just have to take an action. You have to just, physically do something and you'll get out of it.
[00:33:01] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:33:02] Nicole: you know, coming home from tour to an empty house, cause my husband is a tour manager for other bands.
that's been a hard thing for me is like, okay, we live in Nashville now. And I'm in this house alone. I've always had a tiny little apartment in a city. that's been a heavy adjustment cause in New Jersey, I could go for a walk on the boardwalk.
Or New York I just know so many friends there, no one ever wants to be in their house. In New York, but in Nashville like, it's awesome to be in your house. you just have to have friends come over or just, have some music for music's sake.
I hate calling them jams, but hangs!
You know,
Or
[00:33:35] Michaela: effort, I think, living here of like, how do I find connection? Okay, I have to like, take some more action to find where the people are
[00:33:44] Nicole: yeah,
[00:33:44] Michaela: somebody to do something.
[00:33:46] Nicole: yeah. Or invite people over. Like, I love like putting out all of my art supplies and when friends are like, Oh, can we catch up? Let's get coffee. And I'm like, I don't want to go somewhere and pay for coffee. Come to my house. Here's a canvas and we'll just draw while we talk. And then they're like, this is so pleasant.
And I'm like, isn't it,
Yeah.
you know, there's always a takeaway,
I have ADD and like, so when I'm doing something while I'm doing something else. That's my golden zone, that's what I like to do when I'm home.
[00:34:13] Michaela: Yeah,
[00:34:14] Aaron: I love that.
I don't know if I've ever really asked you about it, but you know, with Ryan being on tour all the time
[00:34:20] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:34:21] Aaron: he works with some pretty big bands. Is there ever any feeling there from
[00:34:26] Nicole: Oh God.
[00:34:26] Aaron: on a career and
[00:34:27] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:34:28] Aaron: Ryan's out with this massive band flying all
[00:34:30] Nicole: Yeah. Especially I feel like I've become a mental Buddha, because in the beginning especially when I couldn't find a label for Good Night, Rhonda Lee, I just quit drinking,
Moved to Nashville, just got married, and then I'm in a home alone with someone else's merch boxes stacked all over my house, and my phone isn't ringing.
And that was really, really hard.
[00:34:50] riverside_aaron_+ michaela_raw-synced-video-cfr_the_other 22 hours _0237: hmm.
[00:34:51] Nicole: I think it's just time and experience seeing that things go in waves and when you're trying to not get stuck in the past or stuck on a shitty situation that you're in currently, you just have to work on your stuff or amuse yourself, that's why I did that ultimate Zeppelin show I would dress like an alien and I would in drag and host bingo and sing Roy Orbison songs.
Weird shit like that keeps me out of my own head with him like, he was out with wise blood all last year and I love her music
[00:35:21] Michaela: Mm
[00:35:21] Nicole: And, just seeing it all happen for her. I was in this mindset. I was just really proud and like, just thought Hey, like if that success can happen for her, that's good for people like me that make the kind of music I do.
That's a win.
[00:35:35] Michaela: Mm hmm.
[00:35:36] Nicole: but, the big thing that does suck is like not seeing your husband for like eight months,
that's the thing that's really hard and I can't say anything truly positive about it other than it sucks,
[00:35:46] Nicole: he's lucky he's cute. He's like, he's cute and he likes to keep a clean house. So, I keep him around.
[00:35:52] Aaron: that was our situation when you and I were touring
[00:35:54] Nicole: I know, I remember that.
[00:35:56] Aaron: tours. And you'd said earlier in the conversation about a positive about being an artist is you can do all this fancy stuff if you tie your art
[00:36:02] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:36:03] Aaron: we used to joke that we were like writing a book on how to attach a vacation on the end of a tour.
[00:36:08] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:36:09] Aaron: whole
[00:36:09] Nicole: Oh my god, I'll help you with that book. Yeah.
[00:36:13] riverside_aaron_+ michaela_raw-synced-video-cfr_the_other 22 hours _0237: yeah,
[00:36:14] Nicole: Manager and convince them that they need a music program. But that, it is hard.
[00:36:18] Michaela: partnered with somebody who's in the same business cause we've 21 of like,
[00:36:24] Nicole: Wow. Yeah.
[00:36:26] Michaela: feeling like threatened or jealous of different bands or artists that Aaron was like giving his time to and it would be like how come he's not playing with me or I'm not doing as well and like from all of the time and experience I can't even remember half those people's names and that's not to be like everyone fades away like some of them could have gone on to do really well and
[00:36:48] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:36:48] Michaela: I just don't No, because it, I wasn't paying as much attention, but I wasn't secure in what I was doing.
I noticed now, even though I've gone through the last couple of years of like feeling of like having a harder time with things, but through time and experience, I don't feel as threatened
[00:37:08] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:37:09] Michaela: other people's success I still will get envious, but now I know what to do with it.
I've
[00:37:14] Nicole: yeah,
[00:37:15] Michaela: okay, this is how this goes. what you said, it's how the wind blows.
[00:37:19] Nicole: there's definitely times where I'll get jealous not that I begrudge good things happening for them. It's just that I wish I had it for myself too, when my husband and I got married, he was my tour manager, you know? and I was like, he's going to tour manage my life.
then I remember when he started working, I was like I'm not working right now. So at least we're a one income family,
[00:37:38] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:37:38] Nicole: And then when I am working, we're a two income family. So that's cool. So I just remember that. And then, you know, we always miss each other. So we keep it fresh,
[00:37:48] Aaron: exactly.
[00:37:52] Nicole: that came out a few years ago when she was thinking about Emmylou Harris and Dolly Parton, she's like, man, and these girls are way bigger than me, way more talented, but what am I going to do about that?
I'll be friends with them, you know? And that's, I just, since I was a baby, just wanted musician friends.
[00:38:08] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:38:09] Nicole: I saw the movie, Tommy, I was like, that's my scene
would go to shows and just obsessed with meeting musicians because how did you make that thing? You know? And then I can make those things.
And I have such a great network of musicians that are friends that is wealth to me.
That's my best currency friends that make and do beautiful things.
[00:38:30] Michaela: Mhm.
[00:38:31] Nicole: me out of the, jealous mind,
Or even thinking about people that are really wealthy or people that are really famous, like people that are super wealthy, most of them are miserable and people that are super famous have no privacy.
So to be on the peripheral of that, I can enjoy their swimming pool, but I don't have to deal with their bullshit.
[00:38:51] Michaela: No, I get that. And I feel like especially for, women, we can think that there's only so much room. So it's, so much more common to hear of like cattiness or jealousy amongst women.
[00:39:02] Nicole: Now, did you find that though when you lived in New York? Because I found that way more when I moved to Nashville and I
was like shocked at it.
[00:39:10] Michaela: I think I had the opposite experience. I feel like when I moved to Nashville, I was overwhelmed by how many, girlfriends I got. That were all singer songwriters.
[00:39:20] Nicole: Yeah. See, I have that now, but when I first moved there, it was just like, very competitive. And I'm older, I made my career in New York. my husband and I moved to Nashville, like we were like, let's move somewhere where we can make friends together, that's more affordable than New York. When I moved to Nashville and saw like, all these people that moved to Nashville to make it,
[00:39:40] Michaela: Right.
[00:39:40] Nicole: terrified me that made me very grateful for my like, Lower middle class, career that I have when I first started out I was just going to open mics and getting drunk with my friends like Langhorne slim or Regina Specter and then when like Regina was the first person to get signed It was like wow, maybe that could happen to us, too
[00:39:57] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:39:58] Nicole: like fuck her and there might have been but it wasn't in our friend group,
[00:40:01] Michaela: I remember it like in New York, not having a ton of female musician friends, we went to music school.
And one of my very, very close friends was a singer songwriter who had a band and she had a manager, she was touring and I wasn't doing any of that stuff yet.
I became aware of her. I was never jealous of her. I was like in love with her
[00:40:20] Nicole: yeah
[00:40:21] Michaela: friend, Annie. But I was just like, I just want to know her. Like
[00:40:25] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:40:26] Michaela: She's so funny. she's thankfully a wonderful person. And I friend crushed her Aaron and I have talked about this, how infatuation actually hasn't proven to be good for me in relationships that
[00:40:37] Michaela: people that I get like Infatuated with they typically turn out to not be good people in my life. And he was like except for Annie
she was like the first time I toured was because her band broke up and I had the audacity to be like, would you want to go on a tour together?
I've never done it and she taught me so much just by like self booking a tour on the West coast and renting a car and playing shows together. And anyways, there's just like an example of thankfully that kind of generosity jealousy is so interesting.
Cause sometimes it rears its head and other times it doesn't at all,
Yeah, as I can even if I have something cool going on I'll see a festival that's I never even thought about this festival, but I'm not on it So I'm like, Oh my God, what's wrong with me? It doesn't go to like, fuck them. It goes to like, what am I doing
[00:41:27] Nicole: wrong?
if I'm in that zone, I have to zag the other way and just shut it off and it's funny too. Cause it's like the only person that gets mad about me not liking their posts is my mom. Why did you like my post?
I'm like, just. Know that anything you post, I like.
[00:41:44] riverside_aaron_+ michaela_raw-synced-video-cfr_the_other 22 hours _0237: It's just a
[00:41:44] Nicole: And she's like, I was like, I gotta keep myself off there, and she goes, why? And I'm like, for my mental health,
[00:41:49] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:41:50] Nicole: like, anybody that's my friend in real life, just know, I love all your posts.
[00:41:54] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:41:54] Nicole: I love them.
[00:41:55] Aaron: Exactly. I've. Yeah. Cheers. I've come to that understanding too. It's just like.
We're all out there doing the thing because we have to, at this point it's a requirement of our business.
[00:42:04] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:42:05] Aaron: whatever my friends are doing out there. Great. it.
I'm psyched for you. We get coffee, probably the algorithm won't show me your
you send me memes every day, I'm not going to see your posts.
[00:42:16] Nicole: just stop.
[00:42:18] Aaron: Yeah, it's like
[00:42:18] Michaela: enough.
[00:42:19] Aaron: I
[00:42:19] Michaela: don't have time.
[00:42:20] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:42:21] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:42:21] Nicole: it's like, The compare and despair, jealousy, all of those things, or even, thinking too much about people's comments Oh, you're still doing it, or, Oh, there should be more people here. They probably mean it in a nice way. They just aren't aware, but making mental list of the things that keep you from enjoying yourself
[00:42:42] Michaela: yeah,
[00:42:42] Nicole: music and in your art, because, the whole reason why you started doing music or art was because you connected to something that helped you feel less alone.
[00:42:50] Michaela: yeah,
[00:42:51] Nicole: then when it twists and it starts to make you feel like left out, because everybody's on this festival and you're not, I have to fight against that because I don't want the thing that I love the most to break my heart,
[00:43:02] Michaela: yeah, I found teaching really helps me stay centered to that
[00:43:07] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:43:08] Michaela: I notice and a lot of the things that I try to, share with students especially now having a three year old getting to watch a toddler start to
[00:43:16] Nicole: Hiccup.
[00:43:17] Michaela: her creativity and
[00:43:18] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:43:18] Michaela: singing songs and making up songs and painting.
There's no outside
[00:43:23] Nicole: Pressure.
[00:43:24] Michaela: there's no pressure. There's no affirmation. There's no expectation. It's so pure.
[00:43:29] Nicole: Totally. That's what a lot of people lose. They write a song for a purpose or make a picture for a purpose, but what happened when you lose that shift from child to adult, that's one thing I can say, I've never lost that, and I think that drinking did take that away from me,
because when I was drinking, I was just talking.
Just talking shit. I wasn't making anything. I was just like, meh, fuck you. there was parts of it that were so fun, but that's what I do now is like when I go to Mexico, I'm not teaching, retired CEOs art or how to be a musician. I'm teaching them how to a kid again and have fun like a kid again.
[00:44:07] Michaela: Yeah. I always say that with songwriting students that I'm like, I'm not teaching anybody how to write a song. I'm honestly just giving them permission.
yeah, you can write that. Yeah. You can try that.
[00:44:17] Nicole: how old were you when you wrote your first song?
[00:44:19] Michaela: I wrote my first instrumental song when I was five.
[00:44:22] Nicole: Wow.
[00:44:23] Michaela: And I vividly remember it because it was when my dad was a submarine captain and he was out to sea we got a piano and experiencing what a minor sounded like. I just remember that A to C interval
[00:44:35] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:44:35] Michaela: just started playing those three notes ABC.
And I was like, that feels so sad. That's how I feel when I think about my daddy being gone and I
[00:44:44] Nicole: Oh,
[00:44:44] Michaela: called When Daddy Comes Home.
[00:44:46] Nicole: wow. That's a great title
for a five year old.
[00:44:49] riverside_aaron_+ michaela_raw-synced-video-cfr_the_other 22 hours _0237: yeah
[00:44:50] Nicole: Mine was like sixth grade and I had a band with all the neighbor kids and we were called Whiplash.
[00:44:55] Aaron: Amazing
[00:44:56] Nicole: was just walking around with my friends. Never, never, Never to be seen again.
[00:44:59] riverside_aaron_+ michaela_raw-synced-video-cfr_the_other 22 hours _0237: Nice
[00:45:01] Nicole: was in college I was in a lot of cover bands and like I played rhythm guitar in other people's bands and sang back up and When I moved home the club the Saint in Asbury Park, which I love Is still my favorite place ever, but it's not open anymore.
But anyway, I was like, I want a gig here. And they're like, Oh, we only do original music. Do you write your own songs? And I lied. And I said, yeah. And I had to write 45 minutes or the music in two weeks,
[00:45:27] Michaela: my god,
[00:45:28] Nicole: deadlines, 80 day. Perfect. It was the perfect storm because I just was thinking like, okay, how do you connect a poem to chords?
it seemed like a mountain. It seems so daunting. And then once I told a lie, I had to make good.
yeah, talking out of my ass has really helped a lot. Oh, I
[00:45:47] Aaron: show up for that
[00:45:49] Nicole: Yeah.
the last two years of my life, I've been writing a TV show and I never thought I would do that.
Like I just had these stories. And then my dad said something that was like, Oh my God, that's the thread. I don't know how to fucking write a TV show, but I told somebody that I did.
And now I do. sometimes just like telling on yourself to somebody and then having to prove it has always helped.
[00:46:11] Michaela: Instead of saying, telling a lie, it's like you're vouching for yourself then
[00:46:15] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:46:16] Michaela: to the occasion.
[00:46:17] Nicole: not so much a lie. It's just like, yeah, you're a futurist.
[00:46:20] Aaron: that's how I got into writing for sync and writing for
[00:46:22] Nicole: yeah,
[00:46:23] Aaron: like, met up with a friend, it was the first like month that we lived in Nashville.
And he had us over, we were eating dinner and we were talking, we were like a couple bottles of wine deep. he worked for like a, licensing library at that time. But he's like, they paid a guarantee, up front and then they had a quota and they paid at other half at the end.
And I was like, man, I can do that.
[00:46:40] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:46:41] Michaela: it to me. He offered it to Michaela. And I was like,
[00:46:43] Aaron: no, I was like, I could do that having no idea what I was doing,
[00:46:47] Nicole: You don't know if you could do stuff until you try it.
[00:46:49] Aaron: yeah. And, the next day his boss, the owner of the company.
He's like, I'm gonna put you in touch. I think it'll be great. And I was like, Oh, I'm going to do this. And it was like, I had to write 300 songs in a year. And I was
[00:46:58] Nicole: Whoa. About anything.
[00:47:00] Aaron: it was definitely quantity over quality. So they, could be like 62nd or like 92nd things and they could be instrumental,
[00:47:08] Nicole: Were you training AI?
[00:47:09] Aaron: I mean,
Probably this was 20, 2014.
[00:47:12] Nicole: Yeah. Wild. in Poland, in Taiwan, it was awful. I made it to 150 and I wrote them, I was like, I'm halfway there.
[00:47:21] Aaron: let's just call it good. Cause they paid Yeah. up front. So you paid me half up front. I did half let's just call it good.
[00:47:27] Nicole: It's a practice. 300 songs that's one way to get a new habit,
[00:47:32] Aaron: It definitely like, at least for me, when I start doing something else, I like that inner critic is super loud, when you have a mountain of things to get done, 45 minutes of songs, when you've never written a song before 300
[00:47:42] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:47:43] Aaron: it's like, you don't have time sit and
[00:47:44] Nicole: Yeah. You don't have time to judge yourself.
Yeah,
[00:47:47] Aaron: later, now I need to just get this done.
[00:47:49] Nicole: That's not the thing that I want to do for an album, but it is a great way to get started,
[00:47:54] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I, I've spent the last decade of my life trying to get past perfectionism.
the thing that somebody said is one sentence was just done is better than perfect.
[00:48:04] Nicole: that's why, as soon as I approve a mix of an album, I never listened to it ever again
because I'll find a million things that I want to fix
[00:48:11] Aaron: Yeah. Anything I'm mixing as soon as artist signs off on it, or if it's not something I produce, if the artist and the producer sign off, I'm like, I'll pick it apart forever.
[00:48:18] Nicole: Yeah.
I have to do that today. You just reminded me. I don't know if you ever met my friend Davey Davey Horn. I produced a, an EP for him
[00:48:26] Aaron: Cool.
[00:48:26] Nicole: the mixes are in my inbox right now with his notes and I'm just like,
[00:48:30] Aaron: Nice.
[00:48:31] Nicole: but I'm like holding it off. I'm going to do that after this.
[00:48:33] Aaron: with everything there's, foundational fundamental things that
Make a mix work or make a
[00:48:39] Nicole: hmm. Mm.
[00:48:39] Aaron: Work after those are checked off and it
[00:48:42] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:48:42] Aaron: works as whatever you're making everything above that is just aesthetic.
So there's no
[00:48:47] Nicole: Yeah,
totally.
[00:48:48] Aaron: might come back with 15 notes it might not be better But it'll definitely be different
[00:48:52] Nicole: I like to listen to other people's opinions, too it gives me something to think about that I wouldn't have thought about
I could take it or leave it I know a lot of people get really scared to you say like to your friend here's my new song.
What do you think? my friend Moose, I remember he played on Italian ice and the song mind eraser had this bridge that I was like committed to this bridge And then he's like, Oh, I hope you don't mind. I did a little edit, take it or leave it. Fuck yeah, you took the bridge out and made the song so much better and I never would have thought of that.
I'm definitely flexible with other people's ideas, but I don't need to take them.
[00:49:27] Michaela: especially if it's invited, it can
[00:49:28] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:49:29] Michaela: show you a new way that you're like, yeah, that's great. Or it can confirm your confidence in
[00:49:35] Nicole: Mm hmm.
[00:49:35] Michaela: idea. Mm hmm.
[00:49:36] Nicole: I had to tell my husband once on my last record. I was like, I don't want to know what you would do to this. I don't want to know how you would mix this. I just want to know if you think it sounds cool or not.
[00:49:45] Aaron: Totally.
[00:49:46] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:49:46] Nicole: that made our conversations way better.
[00:49:49] Michaela: Yes. Yeah. I feel that. helpful to like, I'm inviting your feedback, or I just want to share it. And just give me a, thanks for sharing.
[00:49:59] Nicole: Or like, just like, do you think I'm cool? That's all I want
to know.
[00:50:02] Aaron: it. Yeah. That's it. man. Well, I think that's a great spot to just put a bow on this conversation.
[00:50:08] Nicole: Do you think I'm cool?
[00:50:09] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:50:10] Nicole: Leave your comments in the, uh, in the box. Whatever they call it. Well,
It's good to see you
guys.
[00:50:17] Michaela: too. Yeah,
[00:50:17] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:50:18] Aaron: Hopefully we'll see you in person down
[00:50:19] Nicole: Yeah, I get back in a few days
if I survive.
[00:50:23] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:50:23] Nicole: Pray for me.
[00:50:24] Aaron: It's a beautiful spot to be in in summer
[00:50:25] Nicole: I'm very glad that I get along with my parents really well now, and they still have a house on the beach, one of these days you guys should come up.
[00:50:32] Aaron: Yeah, definitely. For sure.
[00:50:33] Nicole: Alright guys. Bye.
[00:50:35] Michaela: See ya.
[00:50:36] Nicole: Bye.