Ruby Amanfu is a singer, songwriter, activist, chef, and actress who has been nominated for Grammy's (song of the year) for her work with H.E.R as well as Brandi Carlile and Alicia Keys, she was a member of Jack White's band, is producer and songwriter for the ABC series "Queens", has placed songs on ABC, CBS, MTV, amongst others, worked with Patti Labelle, Norah Jones, John Prine, Sara Bareilles, and was part of Beyonce's 'Lemonade' album. We chat with her about owning your truth, prioritizing personal connection before professional, balancing the need to earn with your passion, showing up in integrity, the parallels between cooking and creating music, activism and using your voice and creativity, and a whole lot more.
Ruby Amanfu is a singer, songwriter, activist, chef, and actress who has been nominated for Grammy's (song of the year) for her work with H.E.R as well as Brandi Carlile and Alicia Keys, she was a member of Jack White's band, is producer and songwriter for the ABC series "Queens", has placed songs on ABC, CBS, MTV, amongst others, worked with Patti Labelle, Norah Jones, John Prine, Sara Bareilles, and was part of Beyonce's 'Lemonade' album. We chat with her about owning your truth, prioritizing personal connection before professional, balancing the need to earn with your passion, showing up in integrity, the parallels between cooking and creating music, activism and using your voice and creativity, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the other 22 hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss. And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And this is our second year of the podcast. We're so happy to still be here. And thankful you're here as well.
[00:00:19] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah, because we wouldn't have a show without you guys being here. And even a small show like ours takes a lot to produce. And so with that, we'd love to enlist your help to reach more listeners. The easiest thing you could do would be to follow or subscribe on your listening platform of choice.
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One of the things we pride ourselves on in this podcast is that we are not music journalists.
We are musicians ourselves. So we think of this more as a conversation and not an interview. We aren't asking about the latest record or the upcoming tour. We are having a conversation about the lifelong realities of what it is to build a career around your art. Which is an insane thing to try to do.
because most things in this industry are completely outside of our control. And so we focus these conversations on the things that are within our control, being our mindsets, our routines, our habits. Things we've found that help our creativity and we've, over time, over the last 60 plus episodes have boiled that down to the question, what do you do to create sustainability in your life so that you can sustain your creativity?
we got to sit around our proverbial dinner table and ask that question of Ruby Amanfou today.
Ruby Amonfu has a staggering resume. She's released seven studio albums, many singles. She's known for work in Jack White's all female band, The Peacocks. She was in a duo called sammy ruby She grew up here in nashville after moving from ghana at the age of three.
She has been nominated for multiple grammys for co writing hard place by the artist her and a beautiful noise by alicia keys and brandi carlisle Her songs have appeared on abc cbs fox cmt mtv netflix hulu the food network You On shows like Station 19, Little Fires Everywhere, Community, Nashville.
The list is just staggering. She also has worked with Patti LuBelle, Wanda Jackson, Jason Isbell, Nora Jones, Sarah Bareilles, John Prine. She was on Beyonce's Lemonade. She also is a chef. She's a fascinating woman and incredibly, I don't want to say generous, because I say generous every time, but she is generous.
She is. Of spirit. Feels very centered in herself, but as you hear in this conversation, that is through a lot of time and living. Yeah. Michaela hit the nail on the head. The resonating thing in this conversation to me is living in your purpose, living in your truth. We say the word truth a lot, and. You feel it and it feels hard one, I guess would be a a way to put it and a work in progress.
it's one of those conversations that is naturally just like we come to a point that puts a whole bow on everything and a great through line throughout as we talk about cooking and writing and session work and finding yourself and finding your truth and so much. So with that, without further ado, here's our conversation with Ruby Amanfu.
thank you so much for agreeing to sit for this conversation with us. I'm kind of shocked that we've never met in person because we have.
a lot of mutual friends.
[00:04:38] Ruby: I do a little bit of research before each conversation and you have a lot to share.
[00:04:43] Aaron & Michaela: going on.
[00:04:44] Ruby: I do
[00:04:45] Aaron & Michaela: like so many hats that you're wearing of artist, songwriter, producer, chef. I didn't know you were a chef as well.
[00:04:55] Ruby: weird and it took me a long time to even Allow that word to be used right because i'm not I mean, I'm trained and in life school, but it was hard thing for me to Own it and I definitely own it now. I mean it after you Cook multiple times for a hundred plus people and you're able to pull it off and somebody's paying you I think you can call yourself, you know that
[00:05:16] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah, sure. How did that come about? Is that something you've been doing for a while?
[00:05:20] Ruby: Yeah, so the first time I Cooked publicly was It was in 2011 and it was for um, a silent auction that this group Porter's Call was doing. And at the time I was, being seen, aided, helped, loved by Porter's Call. So they reached out to, the creators in the community who, Are benefited by that program and they're doing a silent auction during this money for porters call And I was in a duo at the time this guy sam brooker called sam and ruby and so we decided to come up with a concept where it was food and it was music and that was the first time I knew by that point I was pretty good at cooking but I You Had not before then put it out there like that.
Like That was like, you believe in yourself enough now, Ruby, that you're going to put this up for auction and it's going to go for a price that you're going to be super proud, to present food for it. So it was really great. A couple flew in from Wisconsin, the couple who won lived in Wisconsin, didn't know, you know, anythingabout Porter's call, but,they came to my house and well we did a four course dinner.
I made three of those courses and Sam was a chocolatier at the time. So he made some chocolates and then we did some music. And so that really began that journey and, I have a trademarked entity that was born out of that called Supper and Serenade.
been able to partner and then was able to, utilize that name again with Chef Andy Little at Josephine.
I can say former Josephine restaurant here in Nashville, which is such a bummer to say former but we partnered and did a dinner for Music Cares. Called supper and serenade at Josephine and just different things, you know, and just friends believing in me truly and, Leanne Womack at one point she was having Willie Nelson spanned over cause they were working on a holiday project and she didn't want to cook and so I did, you know, just, it's, it's so it just really kind of is,kind of natural how it happens.
[00:07:19] Aaron & Michaela: I mean, Just hearing you talk, I could substitute cooking with music, it seems, and there's a lot of parallels. Like you started off by saying I had a hard time calling myself a chef for a while. And I hear so many people would be like, I have a hard time calling myself a professional musician, but if you do it in public and you get paid for it, you must, you know, be talking about cooking or music. Yeah.
[00:07:37] Ruby: the worth of it and the weight of it, but I definitely don't want to tie it exclusively to payment, but that's what for me, I was like, Oh, I got to check, and the same applies to when I,
Yeah.college and my parents weren't freaked out anymore because it's like, here's a check, I've got a publishing deal now.
I'm, I am actually doing this. This is work, not just, fun. And I'm not saying work can't be fun. You know that, but it's different,
[00:08:01] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah, that tie, we talk about that a lot on this podcast the tie of money validating us in our role and not Wanting that because we all know also, even if you are getting paid, there might be a day that you don't get paid as often for your work. And then what does that do to your, identity?
you've been doing this a long time
[00:08:23] Ruby: hmm.
[00:08:24] Aaron & Michaela: Creative person, whether it's cooking or music. And can you talk about the ups and downs of that? And if you've had times where like it hasn't been flowing and what that's done to your mindset?
[00:08:36] Ruby: way that we create what we perceive as balance, where earning is here and passion is here. But sometimes I feel like the passion. deposits on this side too. Because we're in a really tricky career where it was a gifting.
It was a desire. It was a passion most of us from when we were little. to take something that is so precious and treasured basically have to put a suit and tie on it, that's tough. And what I have found is when I am only and exclusively pushing to financially earn from this treasure, then I get more depleted.
than the times when I am doing the work and not financially earning, right? And I find that the times that I allow and actually sometimes create opportunity to not have to think about money, that rebuilds me, that fortifies me and almost creates what feels like a natural pipeline of energy. For the money making work to come. Relationships are really important to me in that way. A lot of my business relationships came from seeing eye to eye in terms of just the personal relationship. First, I've never been somebody able to walk into a room and be aligned to, oh, that person's a list or that, or I need to rub shoulders with that person.
I've always despised that. I've never been able to do that. And because of my introversion, I'm, generally the one who will find some other quiet person or somebody standing by themselves and I'm just craving that one on one conversation, or I find people that, I feel a like energy for some reason.
And the beauty is throughout the course of history of my career, you just never know who those people are. But if you go with personal connection first, I find that it makes for incredibly surprising work investment, work relationships. Fruitful.
[00:10:53] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah, I've found that there's kind of like baseline trust there obviously but with that trust is Kind of like in a safety net sense you can reach a little bit more you can try some things you can Push yourself you can pull the other person a little bit more versus I do a lot of writing for sync and tv and stuff like that and it's like know, I'll get set up on rights and that's fun and it's its own thing, but rarely Is it ever as fulfilling it feels like kind of like a task whereas i'd much rather write with a friend that maybe doesn't write in that world much And like chase that down because it's fun and there's that trust there and we can try some cool stuff
[00:11:33] Ruby: Yeah, Friendship First is huge. I mean I was set up for co writes as young as 19 is when I got my first major publishing deal. And I did that thing of, you walk into a room, you've never met the person or the people before and You're laid bare and you're supposed to, pour out whatever you're supposed to pour out.
And I just got so exhausted by that to the point that before I said yes to any co write and I do this to this day before I say yes to any co write, I researched that person and not just their Wikipedia. I mean, I barely do Wikipedia to be honest, that's the stuff that, somebody has, , written all, all neat secretarily, but I will go to their socials and see what they're putting out into the world.
And if it resonates and if I feel that safety net. thing that you were talking about, Aaron, you know? so I do that to this day. And if it doesn't align with who I am, who I strive to be, then it doesn't happen. And it's kept me out of some rooms, I'm sure,
[00:12:36] Aaron & Michaela: hmm. Yeah.
[00:12:37] Ruby: but it's kept my energy force field, all ooey gooey, delicious.
[00:12:42] Aaron & Michaela: I love that. yeah, it's probably kept you out of rooms, but like, did you miss anything being out of those rooms? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, We've all been in that situation where you're just Three hours feels like you've been sitting in there for three days and
[00:12:56] Ruby: Oh, yes,
[00:12:57] Aaron & Michaela: I think it was a few years ago where you said your inner peace is your priority and you know, you reference that you got burned out.
What's been your process of learning how and what have you had to go through? To kind of maybe be forced to prioritize your inner peace, your energy over what we are, told all the time is like what you have to do to be successful.
[00:13:24] Ruby: Man, what's coming to mind right now is the concept of? collisions I hate that this is true, but sometimes it takes catastrophe or a collision to put you into rehab,
you're going one direction and you're like, I've got this, I've got this. And for me, that was allowing others to control me, to control my choices, you know, especially because I was so young when I got involved in this industry I knew this doesn't feel healthy.
I'm not sleeping great at night. I'm not eating, well or enough. there's just a lot of things about feeling inauthentic. But allowing people who I knew, not even about not having my best interest at heart. It's that I wasn't speaking what my best interests were, right?
I wasn't speaking my truth.
[00:14:17] Aaron & Michaela: hmm.
[00:14:19] Ruby: Who is constantly driving while holding a phone and texting, you can do that for awhile. But at a certain point, Collision or catastrophe. And when that happens, you are woken up, when you hopefully survive it. And I, I know not a lot of us in this career have survived those up and downs, but I was lucky that I did.
And I think it was that collision that shifted me and made me begin to share my truth and to own what I was sharing. Because there were times when I would say, this is my truth but I'm okay if it doesn't resonate with you, right? Or I'm okay if you want to do something different but this is my truth and I'm taking ownership if I own it, I'm going to care for it.
Just like this house I'm in, I own this house and I'm taking care of it. so much. And sometimes that means spraying for bugs. And so in this career as well, I am owning it and I am spraying for bugs, y'all.
[00:15:21] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah. . I love that analogy. So do I. Oh my gosh. . Uh, I had kind of a similar thing where it was like an inflection point and, you know, a catastrophe I like to say like I wish the circumstances were different, but I'm so grateful that that happened because of where I'm at
[00:15:40] Ruby: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:41] Aaron & Michaela: When it comes to, a collision, catastrophe, a hardship in this career path,
I know I'm spraying my judgment on this, but I, notice a lot of friends and a lot of people in our community stay in that discomfort and stay in that,
[00:15:54] Ruby: sure.
[00:15:55] Aaron & Michaela: Sell I guess because they're like no, this is what I have to do.
It's like blinded by ambition. It's like
[00:16:00] Ruby: Yes.
[00:16:00] Aaron & Michaela: If I just keep pushing i'll break through
There's like a blind eye to that
and you can like blow right past it is there something that you Were able to do to see that or did that make you see it
[00:16:12] Ruby: The collision made me see it. Because you don't know and then it hits you and that's the thing. I also think that the majority of us, I think I can say that, are taught that It has to be tough. I mean, I think we're taught that in every realm. The problem with that teaching, the problem with no pain, no gain is we have not been taught that there has to be a cutoff on the pain and pain has to be momentary.
It can't be the whole thing. No pain, no gain. Is about momentary drops of it and working through those. But I think what we do is we think, no, this is the way it is. You know what I mean? Like I've got to go through this and it's never supposed to have any levity.
[00:16:58] Aaron & Michaela: right?
[00:16:59] Ruby: we're miss Todd. Aren't we? That kind of was a light bulb moment. And just that, like that term growing pains. Yeah. Sometimes it hurts to grow, but it sure as heck shouldn't hurt all the time.
[00:17:11] Aaron & Michaela: Why can't we have that same understanding and grace for ourselves as creatives?
[00:17:16] Ruby: Yeah.
[00:17:20] Aaron & Michaela: in my head is there's this whole mentality and approach, essentially being all self employed people, at varying levels
the pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality. And there's such like hard work, get dirty, which it can be, but sometimes that pull yourself up by the bootstraps is like taking a pause.
And doing the hard work on yourself and doing what, you know, what you say you did where it's like really just set up that boundary and protect it and spray for bugs and it might not be the like, get sweaty, get dirty, grind it out kind of thing, but you're still pulling yourself up by the bootstraps though it might not be like a thousand pound barbell, it might only be a hundred pounds.
It's going to get you further and it's going to get you to the other side.
[00:17:59] Ruby: It may be a massage! I'm gonna
[00:18:02] Aaron & Michaela: you. Well, I think also reflecting on my own experience and all these conversations we've had and observing friends on this path. And really also, I feel like, you know, we're in our late thirties at the risk of sounding like old and jaded, I feel like you can really see 20 some year olds just starting out, like the shiny like, hunger that they have
[00:18:24] Ruby: I think that some of the stuff that can happen is that we can be so driven and blinded by wanting to succeed, wanting to have fulfilling creative experiences wanting, wanting, wanting.
[00:18:39] Aaron & Michaela: And then sacrificing little parts of ourselves, our belief systems, our integrity, our boundaries, whatever,
[00:18:47] Ruby: Um we're likethey know better and that might give me what I want or this situation doesn't feel totally right, but maybe that's what I have to do to get what I want.
[00:18:55] Aaron & Michaela: And then I'll have leverage and power to really be who I am. And before you know it, all of a sudden, like all these little pieces of yourself, have been given away or changed.
[00:19:05] Ruby: Yes truth
[00:19:07] Aaron & Michaela: and then I feel like there's also this like layer of shame in admitting the wanting.
Being able to see, like you saying like, I had to own my truth,
can mean so many different things for each of us, but I feel like sometimes that can mean
like,
[00:19:21] Aaron & Michaela: also how you are. behaved in a certain way or were implicit in certain things that then when you're in your healthiest place or in your rock bottom that you're like, Oh, wait,
how can I look at this really holistically and be like, man, all these different things happened in my life because I was, my driving force was trying to get something I wanted
[00:19:42] Ruby: Yes. Yes.
[00:19:44] Aaron & Michaela: and maybe that misguided me.
[00:19:46] Ruby: I think that is so important and in talking about owning your truth. sometimes the truth is you were on a wrong path or you were focused on the wrong things. that is exactly right. And I think at the core, Owning truth is who are we authentically? That is real work, isn't it? who are we authentically? and sometimes that is beneficial and sometimes it's hurtful and figuring out what that is period
[00:20:16] Aaron & Michaela: and how it fits when we're working in an industry where we are presenting ourselves and are receiving so many opinions on how we should present ourselves.
[00:20:27] Ruby: yes.
[00:20:28] Aaron & Michaela: like, Reconciling who we are authentically and then being like, but how do I present that authentically? And am I a brand and what is my brand and what should I be sharing on social media to align with my authentic self or to promote?
for some people it's not a conundrum for others. It's like a continual mindfuck.
[00:20:48] Ruby: for sure. it used to be a conundrum for me I think You're lying to yourself if you're saying it's never been a conundrum, even somebody who intentionally straight out the gate chooses, I am not going to care about social media, or I'm going to just post what I want from the start that in and of itself takes a different type of fortification that.
[00:21:11] Aaron & Michaela: trying really hard to go against the grain, Being authentically yourself.
[00:21:15] Ruby: Yeah. Yeah.
maybe there are some people out there who don't feel at odds with that. we were talking about what to share on social media. Are you a brand and if you are, what can you share and what can't you share and how do you promote? And I remember caring
[00:21:32] Aaron & Michaela: Mhm.
[00:21:33] Ruby: II'm not saying I don't care at all, but I remember having to put guardrails.
around what I put out there into the world about myself and what I didn't, I think a lot of artists, bands, whatever, but artists specifically, especially if you don't have a separate artist page, then your personal page um, you know, socials wise, I think you can look at it as a trajectory.
It's like a history book of seeing year by year, who a person is. Is and who they are becoming
I definitely had a becoming I think i've always had deposits Of moments of not Only posting about music and then because I have that second creative outlet with food all of that has woven its web Creatively for me so I never personally felt You Like I had to stick to one lane, over time I realized that sharing more parts of myself holistically gosh, it's easier for me. It may not be easier for everyone, but I'm definitely a believer in, If I am more vulnerable and more open, you are going to feel permission to be yourself. And then we can be in this boat together, both paddling in the same direction, towards the goal of enlightenment or whatever.
Yes.
[00:23:02] Aaron & Michaela: showing up in integrity gives people permission to show up in their own integrity.
that's been something that's been, ringing in the back of my head for the better part of a decade at this point. it's one of those concepts that just continues to.
Refine itself and get clear.
[00:23:17] Ruby: maybe as a feeling more than a thought like, however, it just resonates with me more and more. I like to relate it back to it gives somebody Something push off of, you know, like where like if you're not showing up in integrity, it's kind of like pushing against like a towel on the clothesline.
[00:23:31] Aaron & Michaela: It just kind of like disappears where if you show up and you're strong at where you are. It gives somebody like, something else to push off and like, ground themselves, too. And it's pretty amazing where that can end up.
[00:23:42] Ruby: It is amazing. Yeah, more of that, please.
[00:23:45] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah. And I think, like you said, it's what feels best for you that we all have to come to terms with. And I do think about this a lot because I am like a natural sharer. I want to share everything. I'm like that because I'm just wired that way, but I also have grown to love that part of me because I receive so much by doing that.
I receive so many people's stories,
[00:24:09] Ruby: Totally.
[00:24:10] Aaron & Michaela: but as someone building a music career, there's always been that conflict of like, keep it as a tool, only like post about shows and tours and music. And I'm increasingly the last few years of my life of becoming a mother of stuff with my mom's health happening.
I'm like, music has become, it's not my whole life anymore.
[00:24:30] Ruby: Right.
[00:24:31] Aaron & Michaela: And that's. In my mind, a good thing, it's not the only thing I want to share
and I come into a place of being like, okay, that might then not Gain me as much, I don't know, recognition in the industry or whatever,
[00:24:45] Ruby: it. Say it. Yeah.
[00:24:47] Aaron & Michaela: but it feels more honest to me and I'm in turn attracted to people who share their story on socials.
I'm not like judgment. I'm not like, Oh, somebody is only sharing their tour posters in there. That's what their comfort level is. But yeah, coming to terms with what feels right for you and how you share. in your creative work as well as on these platforms or in, social interactions that's the challenge and the helpful thing to go through to feel at peace with.
[00:25:18] Ruby: Yes. Being known is something that I strive for and it sounds like it's something that, you strive for and not everybody wants to be known. I want to be known. I want other people to be known, to feel seen and so I know that my work has been to make sure I'm putting myself out there so that others can feel seen too.
It's just, A desire of my heart. So,
[00:25:40] Aaron & Michaela: say my work is to put myself out there so that others can feel seen, is that something that you feel? Across your different endeavors like across your music across your activism across your cooking. Is
[00:25:54] Ruby: a commonality between that?
of my life comes from the beginning. It really does come from knowing what it feels like to not have belonging, coming as an immigrant to Nashville, Tennessee, here we are. And. It was really, really hard to have acceptance and belonging.
And so, I didn't like that feeling. really, really early on, I began to actively try to stop it when I saw it, cause I knew what that felt like and I didn't want anybody else to feel like I felt. So I'm really grateful for those hardships. They really did lead me towards this path of then being an advocate for belonging because of what I went through.
[00:26:43] Aaron & Michaela: I love that and i've shared this with micaela. I feel like in our lives You independently and together over the last six, seven years, something the horizon has broadened beyond music. And something that I've seen is, defining your truth, defining like purpose and your mission in life.
And if you can get clear at what, that point is, or that blob on the horizon is. There are so many different pathways of getting there, could be through writing songs. It could be through releasing music. It could be through cooking meals or painting or writing prose.
they all push in the same direction and I found it incredibly inspiring to broaden my horizon with that end point in mind.
[00:27:27] Ruby: Absolutely, hence why you have this incredible podcast we want? more people to feel seen and feel known And it really is cyclical and that's the gift.
[00:27:37] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah, I think it's, and obviously we talk about this a lot together in our life partnership cause I've gotten to observe Aaron actively broaden his horizon. And I think I'm in a process right now of trying to broaden my horizon and feel that like deep attachment to. But I saw this other thing and it's not happening exactly how I saw it happening and trying to like be open, be like, wait, what is my like
[00:28:07] Ruby: Yes.
[00:28:08] Aaron & Michaela: and be open to all that life, you know, and anybody mindfulness, spirituality, like so much is about openness to all that is an acceptance of life.
[00:28:19] Ruby: Oh my gosh. Yes.
[00:28:20] Aaron & Michaela: And I try all those practices, but I always go back to, but I thought this, and so it's like that releasing of the death grip that you, that you had on this vision really, I truly do believe though, if you do loosen that grip, like it could all be so much better than you ever imagined if you can like work through the grief of our attachment to the one idea.
[00:28:47] Ruby: Yes. Absolutely. You're making me think of a vision that came to me several years ago now that I, still use as a vision mantra but that death grip that you're talking about, I'm seeing in my mind now you're just holding on to something but you're not letting yourself just, say you're in the water You're holding on to something and you're not letting yourself go
whole concept is about holding on so tightly to something as opposed to letting yourself swim in the deep. I used to be so afraid. you know, Of swimming in the deep until I realized that the treasure really does lie in the bottom and in the search and in the seeking and in the exploration.
and leaning into what comes and what you discover and what you find and that release, right?
[00:29:43] Aaron & Michaela: Mm-Hmm. The term we all use riding the wave, you
[00:29:48] Ruby: Mm-Hmm.a phrase for a reason
[00:29:51] Aaron & Michaela: that idea of being in the water and like gripping something. is so apt because if you're holding onto a rope in the water you can predict what that journey is going to be. You know, That rope is going to feel like the whole way, you know, as you go down, it's going to get darker and whatever.
And the rope is going to be rough on your hands and all that. But if you let go, there are infinite possibilities for what that's going to be. And that's terrifying. I mean, It's just human nature for that to be terrifying. Well, And it's also, I can't help but think as I was saying it I just went and visited family this weekend for Mother's Day.
Erin stayed here and I took our almost three year old. And I have a very big family and, our daughter doesn't see them very often. We have like a big family brunch. She's very comfortable with like my parents and my brother. But all the extended family, she got really shy and she was like literally death gripping my hand the whole time.
And there's all these other little cousins running around like who are a little older and are like, Georgia, come play with us, come play with us. And like, I'm looking down from this bigger vantage point more life experience and I'm like, Gigi, if you would just let go of my hand, you're going to have so much fun.
They all want to like, love you and
[00:30:55] Ruby: Oh, that's
[00:30:56] Aaron & Michaela: you know? And she was just like, mommy, no.
[00:31:01] Ruby: Yep.
[00:31:03] Aaron & Michaela: And eventually she started like venturing out, but I just thought of that. I'm like, Oh wow.
[00:31:09] Ruby: that's so good.
[00:31:10] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah, I'm looking down being like, you're safe. Go out
[00:31:14] Ruby: we're like universe. No,
[00:31:17] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah,
[00:31:18] Ruby: no.
[00:31:19] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah. that little thing like it's something that has helped me really open up was literally identifying like that little boy, me and myself going like, no, and like the little boy fear and all of that. And being okay with it being like, I see that.
Like, I see you little Aaron. And they're like, it's cool. Let's just try it. Like, We know where this is. We can come back here. Like, let's, Let's just try it. And it's, to me addicting. Like Once you kind of let go and start swimming around, you're like, cool. What's behind this rock?
Oh, what's over here.
[00:31:48] Ruby: That's right. Oh, you are a writer. All these creative phrases. I love it.
[00:31:55] Aaron & Michaela: Can you talk a little bit about sharing your activism and what that's been like for you and growing up, you said you're an immigrant, you moved to Nashville at age three, right? From Ghana
[00:32:06] Ruby: Yeah. From Ghana.
[00:32:08] Aaron & Michaela: as an artist and a public person, and then progressively sharing your activism and being in Tennessee in the south in a pretty hostile environment.
What that's been like for you and that,work and sharing it from your, artist platform as well.
[00:32:23] Ruby: I've always seen and been disturbed by injustice. I think those are two different things. I think the first step is seeing it,
the second step is being disturbed by it. Those have always been hand in hand for me, and I, know it's not the case for everyone. That's just my story, my journey.
But because I see it, and I'm disturbed by it I'm programmed to be a see something, say something person.
I also think it has a lot to do with me recognizing my power as a citizen firstly, just a citizen and member of a community, but also to educate.
It really is about education for me. I think there's just a lot we don't know about, don't take time to learn about or to know about that's happening. I am grateful for social media. In the ways that it has helped open our eyes more
with all of that, there definitely has to be, balance and discerning what is truth and what is not truth.
Even in that realm, but I think because, yeah, I've always been somebody who is a, see something, say something. And if even one person is being unjustly treated, there's a problem for me. And in realizing that we as citizens really can make positive change.
I didn't really know that. But I think I knew that when I turned 18, I could legally vote here in Tennessee. I knew that. But I didn't know what I was voting on. I didn't even know a thing about a local election.
And as I dove deeper into that realm, I began to then discover how musicians played a huge part In educating people in the, sixties and seventies.
And you're Bob Dylan's and you're Jimi Hendrix and you're Joan Baez and you're Nina Simone. I mean, They were teachers of history. And that resonated with me. So once I deposited that into my spirit and said, yep, I'm similar to that. Then it just was fluid. It was very natural for me to recognize the responsibility that I had to share truth and to be able to, in my own way, my unique way as a creator share it with what I think is love,
Sometimes tough love, but for me I, I try to lead with love and I try to lead with understanding.
You can't always understand everything and you definitely can't understand hate. You're not supposed to be able to say, Oh, I understand why this person hates that person. But I think leading with love is how I choose. intention around why this is on my music page or what somebody wants to perceive my music page.
But it's always been a holistic view for me, which is why I've never shied away from posting about those things. Because it's not one thing or another, right? Like I can't say, yeah, I'll participate in love rising at Bridgestone arena. And I'll show up and I'll sing my songs and I'll leave without really caring about the source of this and educating people on what is happening here.
And so that's why I choose to share and to educate to bring more truth
[00:35:53] Aaron & Michaela: No I appreciate that. I appreciate the thoughtfulness that is behind there. Mm hmm. Because, again, in my judgment, I see that, the stereotypical response from an artist is, Oh, I need to appeal to as wide an audience as
[00:36:09] Ruby: Oh yeah.
[00:36:10] Aaron & Michaela: And I think to me, that's the same analogy as the integrity thing.
When you're trying to appeal to a wide audience, there's nothing for your audience to push back against. It's a towel blown in the breeze, you know? and it's like, when you really planify, yes, you're going to alienate people, but you're also going to equally attract people,
[00:36:27] Ruby: Who do you want surrounding you? do you want supporting you? Who do you want to support?
[00:36:32] Aaron & Michaela: exactly, Relating what we do to a service. It's like who needs to hear that who needs this permission to show up like this Well, And like you said of everything for you going back to being rooted in love and promoting belonging, trying to create belonging for people.
So you know, politics and activism can be so taboo, but I've never really understood that because I feel like when it's rooted in trying to advocate for something, To decrease harm that is being enacted on people. And increase inclusivity and belonging and just like human rights and that to me is like, this isn't politics.
those of us who don't speak about it is because we are in a privileged enough position that it doesn't feel like it impacts us.
[00:37:24] Ruby: Yeah.
[00:37:25] Aaron & Michaela: So that's what I try to go back to whenever I'm like, What? People think we shouldn't talk about this stuff? you know, , and then always go back to the saying of the personal is political, the political is personal,
it absolutely informs a lot of our lives.
[00:37:38] Ruby: That's good.
[00:37:39] Aaron & Michaela: I never heard that phrase before. You
I think it was used a lot in like the feminist movement ofthe sixties of I'll have to go back to my college days when studying social movements. political is personal. That's great.
Not to like shift gears so quickly, but I, I had a question I really wanted to talk to you about. One of the things, one of the things we talk about on this podcast is like the reality of financial wellness.
[00:38:05] Ruby: Sure.
[00:38:06] Aaron & Michaela: I was looking at your Instagram and I saw you posted about, going to see Beyonce in concert and it was a beautiful post about like hearing your voice. you didn't know that your vocals were going to be used on the tour. But then you added a little thing saying, I'm going to be watching this concert from the nosebleeds cause I got paid less than 200 for that session. And I, And I think I even was shocked by that.
[00:38:29] Ruby: this reminds me of that show on VH1, or whatever, that's like the phrase, you think you know, but you have no idea.
[00:38:36] Aaron & Michaela: This is really that, it's so many peopleeven within our own craft world. We think that somebody's journey is in a different place than it is.
[00:38:47] Ruby: I think we do it all the time, just naturally. And of course, especially with something or someone like, a true celebrity artist and, collaborating in any way in that space. Yeah. You think. Oh, I'm doing good. But that's one of those things too, where, what we were talking about, the earning versus the passion, and passion was far greater for me
[00:39:10] Aaron & Michaela: Mm space than what I was earning.
my question also is just even for those of us who work in the industry, there is always such shrouded secrecy around financials in the music business. And I'm. Slowly. realizing, there's a reason.
But I think we've all kept that up because we've personalized it. But I think learning something like, Oh, a background singer on even a Beyonce record, you'd think, Oh, you gotta be getting paid thousands of dollars for that.
[00:39:39] Ruby: the way that the system is set up, people can seem like they're doing so well, like you said, and financially, it doesn't add up.
[00:39:46] Aaron & Michaela: So
[00:39:47] Ruby: of course, who would turn down singing on a Beyonce record, but do you know why the pay was so low? Um, I guess my
I, I do. I feel like I must have signed an NDA that prohibits me from talking about it. But I can tell you next time we see each other
[00:40:03] Aaron & Michaela: hmm. Okay. Yeah. Heard. Heard. Yeah. I've heard similar stories in more Nashville basedmajor label country stuff where friends have been hired under the guise of playing on the demo
but then all that happens is that the lead vocal gets subbed out and all of a sudden the demo becomes the master and they just got paid a demo fee and it's, playing at Kroger.
It's insane.
[00:40:28] Ruby: This is why talking about like activism, advocacy. This is more advocacy but talking so much about best practices and like a year ago, I didn't even know what that phrase meant. Best practices. But it really means not just leveling the playing field but equalizing the playing field, but it's also making sure that, people are getting. compensated for what they're worth, if a celebrity successful on this and you have helped make that, we've got to begin to level that financial playing field. Right.
[00:41:00] Aaron & Michaela: Mhm.
[00:41:00] Ruby: that's a whole other thing.
[00:41:02] Aaron & Michaela: Well, I think the moral of the story is things are just not as, we think that they are. And I think in every industry, I'm sure this is a reality, but this is the only industry that I know. Um, The only industry I've ever worked in. And I think having these conversations is the first step to.
enacting change and we can accept that things are what they are because, you know, not having leverage or being driven by passion, all this stuff. But I'm particularly excited in this moment because it feels like the disparities are increasing, but there's so much organizing happening. So many groups popping up, unions popping up, trying to advocate saying, actually,
Collectively we have power..
Individually, We do not. I cannot go up against Spotify's royalty rates by myself. Taylor Swift could, but I
[00:41:57] Ruby: Right.
[00:41:57] Aaron & Michaela: And so that is encouraging. I just last night there's a new organization called moms and music. It was started by a record executive based out of Atlanta.
last night talking to her was like, so inspiring because it was all Women who are moms and like in all different aspects of the music industry so catalog acquisition and legal and artist management and everything and even on that side because I'm just solely on the self employed touring musician side, but they were just like we have to get together communally and we can make changes in this industry.
We can create new environments. And like, just listening to them talk, I was like, we can,
[00:42:34] Ruby: Yes, we can together.
[00:42:37] Aaron & Michaela: we don't just have to accept well, this is how things are. This is the pay. So you either do it or you don't,
conditions are not conducive to be a mother in this industry. So give it up. Blake. Things can change.
[00:42:49] Ruby: They can go far, go together.
[00:42:51] Aaron & Michaela: Yes.
see parallels between what we were talking about being open to different pathways and letting go of the rope and swinging it's we can do this in different ways there are different approaches to this and it harms us to think that this is the only way. To go about this, which again also ties into the activism and public speaking and all of that tennessee doesn't have to be the way that it has been our legislature does not have to be the way that it has been There are options
[00:43:16] Ruby: And a lot of people didn't know those, options before people that they followed started talking about it. You know? Yeah.
[00:43:24] Aaron & Michaela: Yeah on all levels. I think that's a place to kind of put a bow on this Wonderful conversation that we've had
[00:43:31] Ruby: Oh, man. It just felt so easy and so natural. Thank you for For wanting to know me better and, I feel like I know you a lot better
[00:43:40] Aaron & Michaela: Likewise. Thanks for carving out time to sit with us this morning. I hope we'll get to meet in person because I also feel like there's just so much more I want to talk about.
[00:43:49] Ruby: Yeah. Oh yeah. I know we will. I know we will. We'll make sure of it.
[00:43:54] Aaron & Michaela: It's one of those Nashville things now we'll realize that we're in the same room more often than we knew.
Yeah.
[00:43:59] Ruby: hope so.
[00:44:00] Aaron & Michaela: Thank you again. Have a great day.
[00:44:02] Ruby: Yeah, you too. All right. Bye.
[00:44:04] Aaron & Michaela: See ya.