Tammy Rogers is a founding member of Grammy-winning bluegrass band The SteelDrivers, a founding partner of Dead Reckoning (which is credited as being an early champion of 'americana' music), and is also a storied session musician, touring and recording with the likes of Reba McEntire, Patty Loveless, Trisha Yearwood, The Jayhawks, Buddy Miller, Matraca Berg, Eric Church, Jim Lauderdale, Todd Snider, amongst many others. We talk with Tammy about the importance of the musician's union and collective bargaining, flexibility and rolling with the ups and downs and changes, saying yes to as much as possible early in your career, road versus studio work, collaboration to cover weaknesses, and a whole lot more.
Tammy Rogers is a founding member of Grammy-winning bluegrass band The SteelDrivers, a founding partner of Dead Reckoning (which is credited as being an early champion of 'americana' music), and is also a storied session musician, touring and recording with the likes of Reba McEntire, Patty Loveless, Trisha Yearwood, The Jayhawks, Buddy Miller, Matraca Berg, Eric Church, Jim Lauderdale, Todd Snider, amongst many others. We talk with Tammy about the importance of the musician's union and collective bargaining, flexibility and rolling with the ups and downs and changes, saying yes to as much as possible early in your career, road versus studio work, collaboration to cover weaknesses, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours Podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And this is episode 115, and this week we're featuring our conversation with Tammy Rogers.
Aaron: Yeah, Tammy Rogers is a woman of many hats and many responsibilities not least of which is being one of the founding members of the Grammy winning.
Multiple time nominated Bluegrass band, the steel drivers. She also founded Dead Reckoning in the nineties. Which having like kind of an artist centric record label in the nineties was pretty groundbreaking. And on top of that, dead Reckoning was considered one of the labels here in Nashville that kind of really pushed the genre of Americana and started to define what that was.
Furthermore, she is a side [00:01:00] woman on tour. Having played with the likes of Patty Loveless, Reba McIntyre, Trisha Yearwood. Few kind of small name country artists. And on top of that, she's played on recordings by, and I need to read this off, buddy Miller, madrasa Berg. Jim Lauderdale, the Jay Hawks, Todd Snyder, BL Eric Church, and I'm sure so many more.
A
Michaela: lot more. She was fascinating to talk to, because she's been in Nashville specifically for a long time and really gotten to see. all the changes in the industry that we really dug into Big union advocate and talk, we talked about collective bargaining NS ai, the Nashville Songwriter Association advocating for compensation, all really important things when it comes to the other 22 hours, when also talked about her lifelong marriage partnership with her husband, Jeff King, who is a.
Reputable guitar player performing with people like Brooks and Dunn, Reba McIntyre, they even met on the road in Patty Loveless Band. As well as some of the more inspiration background of how to [00:02:00] navigate this career and saying yes to as many things as you can before you learn what to say no to.
Aaron: Yeah, just like a little nerd out session musician fact, she was talking about how in the nineties. Her and her husband were doing like three sessions a day. So for you that don't speak Nashville, speak, that's like three, four hour recording sessions for like major labels with a union card every day. She was saying that her husband would sometimes do 15 sessions in a week, which is, you can hear it's an astonishing amount of, But with that, as with all these conversations, there are topics that we touch on areas that we go to that come as direct suggestions from our Patreon. That's because they get advanced notice of our guests. They can submit questions, there are discussions. It's kind of ever breathing, ever evolving.
all over the place. So if that sounds intriguing to you or if you would like the moral satisfaction of financially supporting the production of this show in the only way that you can at the moment, we would love for you to check out our Patreon at the link below in the show notes.
Michaela: And if you are a visual person, this [00:03:00] conversation in all of our previous conversations is available to watch on YouTube. But without further ado, here is our conversation with Tammy Rogers.
Aaron: Well, thank you for, being on with us. we're both musicians, we're also married, we're also parents.
Michaela: full disclosure have a four month old baby and his bouncer right here that hopefully will fall asleep. Yeah. So if you
Aaron: see us kind of, if you see us here, we are present with you. We're just glancing making sure
that the,
Tammy: understand. Oh my gosh. You know, if I had known that backstory, I would've gotten my husband to sit in, because as well are a married musical couple. And of course our children are all grown now, but
Michaela: yeah,
Tammy: so
Michaela: that
Aaron: would've been fun.
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: it's pretty amazing. I'm one of the very uber positive ones because I, I have to say that I still think my husband is amazing.
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: gonna celebrate our 28th wedding anniversary this fall.
Michaela: my gosh, congratulations.
Tammy: and we've both been professional musicians the whole time,
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: [00:04:00] it can be done
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah. Uh,
Tammy: and our children are happy and healthy and great.
So yeah,
Aaron: amazing. And do you guys tour together often or is it mostly apart?
Tammy: mostly apart.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Yeah,
Tammy: there
Aaron: are times
Tammy: times that we do work
Aaron: together.
Tammy: And actually we met years ago, it would
Michaela: Mm,
Tammy: summer when he was playing electric guitar for Patty Loveless and I was hired to play fiddle, mandolin and sing, harmony vocals.
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: So that was fun. We got to tour together for a while and then I left that job first and went on to tour with Tricia Yearwood but we stayed friends and it wasn't until about, I guess four and a half years later that we started dating, but I.
Aaron: we
Tammy: paths that
Aaron: have
Tammy: We're actually in the middle of co-producing a record for a young artist. It's first thing that we've co-produced together,
Michaela: Oh, cool. Yeah.
Aaron: How's that going?
Tammy: fun. It's going really well. Yeah.
Aaron: we've
Tammy: different
Aaron: strengths
Tammy: and so I think we compliment each other well in that way.
Aaron: Oh, [00:05:00] that's great. so our backstory you know, Mikayla's a singer songwriter, and I've always been like a side man. drums are my first instrument, so I, would do the same thing, hop from tour to tour, play with whoever more or less. And that includes McKayla and, we met in music school and we set it up from the beginning.
I was like, Hey, you know, this is your band. You are the boss. if I'm not the right person for the job. I don't want you to call me. I also don't want you to get mad at me if I mess up the bridge because you're really mad at me that I didn't make the bed. You know,
like, let's, let's keep this separate. that has been our kind of, from the beginning, we've been together. 18 years this summer.
Tammy: Congrats.
Michaela: you. Thanks.
Aaron: now I don't really tour much. Starting around 2018, I started to pull back on the road and we're sitting in, you know, our studio here, we're in our backyard.
And I mostly stay here now. and so now that we move into you know, I'll produce Mikayla's records, which is, a different creative dynamic, you know, it's more of a collaboration. And then especially with this podcast, this is really like the first thing we've stepped into that is like equal, equal
Michaela: He does a lot more work than I do, but it's our, but it's our
Aaron: thing, you know? [00:06:00] Yeah. and it's just been amazing the, different levels of collaboration. With a creative partner. no matter how long we've been together, it's like, oh, this is new. Okay. Let's, let's feel this out for a second and
Michaela: yeah.
I'm so interested in general in human relationships. all the different ways that we have to learn how to communicate with each other. and I think when you are both musicians, and romantically together, life partners then collaborate creatively, also parents together.
There's so many different ways that you have to kind of compartmentalize and like, learn to communicate. I just saw a couple, I was returning a rental car and I saw a couple in their. Fifties or sixties riding a tandem bicycle. They were doing like a big 20 mile bike ride and I couldn't help myself.
I was like, where are you guys going? And they're like, we're doing the whole, you know, round of Manhattan. And, and I was like, oh my God, is this like, great for your marriage? This looks like therapy. And they were like, it is. But I'm wondering if you can speak to that a little bit of like what it's done for you individually [00:07:00] and as a couple when you're blending creative lives and to now be 20 some years in and you said this is the first project you guys are co-producing together.
Like if there's any thoughts that come to mind of how that's evolved over time.
Tammy: well, I guess I should clarify that,
it's the first project we've, officially co-produced
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: That wasn't something we were working on just for ourselves,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: it's for an outside artist. We've worked, you know, much like what you were describing in different capacities since the very beginning.
And I, kind of love that about the creative life, about the musical life that I. Every day is different. You know, some days, almost every hour is different.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: so I think the very nature of so many different combinations of working relationships and environments, you have to always be very, very flexible.
I think if there's anything that I would say about both of us, our [00:08:00] personalities, roll with it really, really well. and that's not to say that we're not both very disciplined very goal oriented. And also,
Aaron: you know,
Tammy: historically very ambitious. You kind of have to have those components, I think, as well to be successful, you know, that drive to succeed and that drive to do the best and do the best performance or, you know, get the best recording that you can.
But I think personally, we recognize that, hey, today I'm recording I'm be out of the house for 12 hours, so I may not be able to be here for dinner, and I may lean on you to, make sure that the dog is fed,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: you know, and, and these things like that. But the next day it's like, oh, you've gotta go do this thing, or you're leaving on tour.
be here and make sure the, bills are paid and problem. So to me that probably the, biggest. Thing is that [00:09:00] flexibility and recognizing that your life is as unpredictable as my life
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
each day
Tammy: can be vastly different from the next day. and complete transparency, we were both married prior, so
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: marriage for both of us.
I was just married for a very short time, no children. He actually was married for a bit longer and has two older Mm-hmm. then we have the one together. But his ex was not in the music business at all. So I think suddenly, you know, when we found ourselves together, and not only professionally involved, but romantically involved, there was just this great sense of. Recognition,
Aaron: Mm-hmm. of a better term, of many unspoken understandings
Mm-hmm.
Tammy: of you don't have to explain to me that you're doing three sessions today and you're probably gonna run late and see you when I, when you get
Michaela: Right. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: or you don't have to explain to me that you've gotta leave the day before to get to this gig.
which seem [00:10:00] like really small things, but in the fabric of your life of the day in, day out, they're not. Those are
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: that can just cause somebody to grind their teeth over
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. breeding ground for resentment.
Tammy: Oh, huge. and that's not to say that, I mean, we're not perfect. We're not. Perfect people. You know, and there've been times that I've looked at the calendar and not realized that, oh, you mean you are gonna be outta town that
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Tammy: Oh,
Aaron: okay. I got you.
Tammy: Okay. I, I see it now. Okay. I hadn't factored in your travel day or whatever.
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: we share an eye cal, which is amazing,
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: things don't get put in
Michaela: Yep.
Aaron: I joke around 'cause We have an older daughter who is now almost four, and it wasn't until she was born that we started sharing a calendar,
and that was like, You guys survived that
Michaela: woo. I know.
Aaron: Well, it was a big step for me at that point.
We'd been together for 14 years, you know, and, married for six or seven [00:11:00] of that, and lived together for most of that time. our lives had been, intermingled for a long time. Yeah. And that was a big step. really had to like, do some personal work and like, because I'm very organized and meticulous with like, how I keep my schedule.
Like,
Tammy: Your
Aaron: and I also understand that even prior to kids if it's not in my calendar, I'm not gonna remember it. and I know that, so like, I make sure, like things are neat in my calendar so I can see what's there and plan ahead. that's not Mikayla's strong suit,
Tammy: Yeah,
Aaron: I'll say.
And so I'm like, okay, we're gonna share Cal. Here we go. And it was a big set, but now it's, now it's essential. once I learned that I could change the color of her calendars in my calendar. So they look a little more transparent. Mine are nice and bold. Hers are a little more it's, it's. perfect.
Michaela: But there's also, still arguments you know, that where I'll be like, I don't think I need to communicate something. 'cause didn't you see it on the calendar? And like, oh, you don't have alerts when I add something I'm alerted. but these systems, I have a, good friend who just had a baby and we have these conversations of like the systems that we've learned now, adding children into the mix of being two working parents in relation with [00:12:00] each other, working together, all this stuff.
Like, that's the kind of nitty gritty that I used to think was so boring and now is so exciting because it makes life easier and learning how other people do it is so fun. Especially when your life is full of lots of different things. Which it sounds like your life has been, you
are
Tammy: very much. Yeah.
Michaela: have solo projects, you're a co-founder and active member of the steel drivers.
And. you founded a record label in the early
nineties.
Tammy: yeah, back in the nineties. Yeah. I'm not really involved with that anymore, but
at that time period. Yeah.
Michaela: Do you, do you mind sharing a little bit about that? Just because it feels like today it's very common artists to be independent and start their own label and it, seems less common to have happened back then. And I'm super curious about the mindset to do that and the business mind as well.
Tammy: Absolutely. and we were very early adapters into what now is a more common business model. But I was very, very fortunate [00:13:00] to be involved with this group of kind like-minded musicians, singer songwriters there in Nashville. I was the baby by most of the guys were 10 years older than me, 10 plus years.
So I greatly benefited from experience. They had already. Kind of been through the process of being on major labels. Kevin Welch was one of the original founders, and he had had two records out on Warner Brothers. Kane was another partner. He had been in the Ocas in the eighties, and I think they had been on, I think it was Columbia.
Sony, uh, had put three records out. He'd had a solo record on Atlantic. Harry Stinson was more behind the scenes producer, but had dealt with record labels for years. Mike Henderson who went on to be one of the co-founders of the steel drivers, that's where we
had
had a record out on RCA.
So all those guys, took me under their wing part of that, which was an unbelievable gift. So [00:14:00] was able to creatively be a part of this thing. And. Watch the business aspect of how all that, I can't take credit for the business side of
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: I knew nothing,
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: nothing. it was hard, you know, in those days, even with that background and with those guys that knew everybody in Nashville by that point and had these track records of working and having product out on major labels, it was still unbelievably hard to found an indie label set up those deals for distribution with, we worked with rounder at one point, to distribute the records and then worked with another company later, you know, all those things.
We never took outside funding, it was a great thing. To be party to and almost be a fly on the wall because I learned a tremendous amount. yeah,
Michaela: I'm,
Tammy: kind of how all that happened.
Michaela: I'm wondering how having that early on, informed your perception and relationship with the music [00:15:00] industry and as you continued on developing a band. Um, ' cause I feel like so many conversations with artists in the music industry is this kind of like separation of like the musicians and then the industry and this kind of challenging feeling of like, how do I get accepted in there?
Or get support or those that. We've talked to lots of people who've been completely independent for, the entirety of their career, and we're just like, I'm creating my own thing. So I'm curious what that relationship was like for you.
Tammy: you know, I think. I evolved into realizing, at least for myself, I don't like the business side. I can do it. one sense, my husband and I have been small business owners now for plus
Michaela: Right.
Tammy: know,
Being independent, self-employed
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: basically freelance, both
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: You know, all the bookkeeping and billing and invoicing and
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: the stuff, the nuts and bolts,
I don't love that. I would rather, pick [00:16:00] up a guitar and write a song. I would rather be in the studio. I'd rather be on stage. I would rather be doing all the creative side, unfortunately.
I came around more to the viewpoint of you can find the right partnership,
and I heard a, famous quote years ago. I was really great friends with Roger Miller, his son, Dean Miller back in the nineties. We wrote a bunch of stuff together, Dean and I
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: and he told me one time that somebody asked his dad, because his dad never left Sony Tree
He was there for 30 years and he could have totally left and kept his own publishing or whatever. but he recognized the value of having a partner and doing the parts that he didn't love doing. And he said, I'd rather have half of something than all of nothing.
Michaela: Yeah. kinda stuck with me, you know, because I do think, the dead reckoning thing, as cool as it was in the nineties, and everybody in town knew about it and thought it was the coolest thing ever.
Tammy: And we joke about being Americana before Americana was
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: part of the reason that it's [00:17:00] not still really a, happening vital label in my opinion, is that we didn't take outside funding.
And so there was only so far that it ever go,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: and that's okay.
Michaela: Right.
Tammy: It's a decision that you make.
And that was the decision that that group of people made. And this year is actually the 30th anniversary of the label. And, it's a great catalog that is still owned by these same people.
nobody anymore really has the wherewithal. Or the time or the energy to keep
Aaron: working Mm-hmm.
Tammy: know?
Aaron: So it kind of
Tammy: became almost a dormant situation. and of course the steel drivers, when we got together, we didn't put out a dead reckoning record, we signed with rounder.
Aaron: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: And that was a great working relationship for us. And I think, at least myself, by then, I recognized I would prefer to have a partnership with someone. And yeah, you give up something for that. I feel like in the long run for us, it got us further down the line where we wanted to [00:18:00] be doing the things that we didn't wanna do.
Michaela: Yeah,
Aaron: absolutely. that's so vital in a way. I've tricked myself into liking the business part of everything because I've been able to find the creativity in it in how I approach it, And
Tammy: do.
Aaron: yeah. And so what you were just saying, that sentiment of like finding the right partner and viewing it as a partnership and a collaboration, to me that relates to, you know, as a producer, like who I hire for a record, you know, it's like people's strengths, cover up somebody else's weakness or whatever.
Everything fits together like a puzzle. And that's so true. When you find that right synergy, you know, the sum is greater than the parts.
Tammy: I think everything works that way. Having a
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: I don't hardly know any artist that loves to do the booking,
Michaela: Yeah.
Right.
Tammy: loves to call up a club and go,
Michaela: you know, I'm really awesome.
Tammy: You should book me and
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: you
Michaela: know,
Tammy: I'm really worth $5,000,
Aaron: even though
Tammy: club only seats a hundred people.
Aaron: right. Exactly.
Tammy: You know what I mean?
Aaron: I mean, and then follow up 15 times.
Tammy: Yes, exactly. Oh [00:19:00] my God. I mean to me
Aaron: for it. like a burning hell.
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: I do not want to do that. I've never wanted to do that. I'm the worst self-promoter
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: on the planet.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: not wanna sit here and tell you how great I
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: whatever it
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: Uh, it makes my skin
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: Now, if you like doing that, awesome.
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: I admire that. I admire people that can do that. But
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: don't wanna do that.
Michaela: So I'm so happy
Tammy: we've had the best booking agent now for at least the last 10 years,
I love them. I'm happy to write that check
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: them take their commission please.
You deserve it. And they have been incredible partners with us, and that's how I Yeah. a partnership.
Michaela: what I'm hearing you say is also like knowing what you want and are able to do and what you're willing to give up to not do those things. 'cause there's so many of those things of like Okay. If I want a record deal, because I know that that's the way that, like gonna have distribution all these things, what, the label [00:20:00] offers and what I'm willing to give up for that, whether it's master ownership of my records or, you know, the money, whatever agent, all of that stuff.
And then going from there, we always reference like BJ Barham from American Aquarium, he's owned his own records and he does that. And he was telling us about how when he puts out a record and he does a presale, he and his wife do all the packaging and shipping of their records.
Aaron: there was one record, this was a few records ago for him now, but they sent out 20,000 vinyl records between the two of them.
Tammy: gosh.
Aaron: sleeves, address them, all them, stamped them and then brought them to the post office.
Michaela: he's like, I know, I know. And he's like, we're willing to do it. So that's a portion of our income that, we get to keep. But if that was torture for him, of course he would outsource it.
So it's like really getting to know yourself I think is the important process, which can also change. Like I talk all the time, I've had indie deals for the last 10 years, I've been in deals where they own my masters and I [00:21:00] just got to a place where. Started to not sit well with me I got out of my deal and now I'm in this in-between place, where every other day I'm like, no, I wanna do it all myself.
And then I'm like, no way. I do not, we need to find a new partnership that won't own my masters. We'll do a license. you know, and you have to kind of get to know, depending on what's going on in your life what you're excited by and what your time is, worth for you and finding those relationships.
And like you said, steel drivers have been around a lot longer than 10 years. But the past 10 years is, where you've had that great working relationship
with an agent.
Tammy: we are actually this summer celebrating our 20th anniversary,
Aaron: Congratulations.
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
Tammy: I think to speak to your comment just a moment ago, and again, that's one of the other things I love about the creative life is are allowed this almost river to travel on and it changes through time
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: you certainly learn if you are paying attention. [00:22:00] So, the record deal that we were offered 18 years ago, wouldn't accept today
Michaela: Exactly.
Tammy: that was the deal that we could strike then.
And that was also I mean, even then, it was a pretty great deal
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: for the times great royalty rate. gave us complete autonomy.
We've never had to send in demos, we turn in a completed record,
that was pretty unheard of
Michaela: at that
Tammy: But now since the business models have changed through time, you know what you said, the record that's coming out this Friday, I. record prior to that, that came out a year and a half ago.
It's a lease deal.
It's a three year lease. So finally after five records, these two will be the sixth and seventh records, and we finally will own the Masters.
Michaela: Yeah,
Tammy: And that's huge.
Aaron: I'm interested,
Tammy: a viable option. I guess going back to when we first started the, process, it hadn't become a common option for artists to really work that
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: evolve
that's [00:23:00] a beautiful thing too.
Aaron: Yeah. When you were first bringing the steel drivers to rounder, were you personally involved with structuring that deal? I'm just wondering if there was any kind of connection between your experience with Dead Reckoning and then carving
that deal, actually
Tammy: Ken approached us, Ken
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: and then really it was more Mike Henderson, who kind of the, the point person. And we've always kind of worked that way in the band. We've always had people kind of do different things kind of based on their
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: again, you know, Mike was 11 or 12 years older than
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: so he had already been through, record deals and kind of had more experience in that.
department of talking to people and working from the business side. so I was just more of a observer that.
Aaron: certainly
Tammy: were all on the same page. Like, yes, we wanna do this,
Michaela: Yeah. being involved in so many different projects that are your own hired for other people contributing to tons of people's records when you look [00:24:00] back on your many years of doing this, were there's ever any times where it didn't feel like, oh, the next job just came and that it was a constant flow?
Did you have any times, even if it was like a month where you had to like be like, wait, what do I do? those downtimes of like regenerating or panic, has that ever happened for you?
Tammy: you know, other than
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: I've been so fortunate that I have just always been once I got going,
I had a few years right after college that were a little like, woo,
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: on? How am I gonna do this? how am I gonna make money? All that of thing.
But once I got to Nashville, once I got that first job with Patty Loveless, I have been so incredibly blessed and fortunate that it's just
Michaela: Continued.
Tammy: pretty nonstop. That's the only audition I ever took.
Michaela: Wow. Wow. I mean, that's a great first, entry point.
Tammy: was amazing. a couple things about that.
[00:25:00] I think one, I. When that opportunity presented itself, I was ready for it. I had done the work. I had been, playing and playing very seriously since I was about 11 or 12. And I went to college played, played, played, played in so many different types of settings, got outta college, played play, played as much as I could for three years.
So I was 25 when I got that audition and I was ready. The skills, you know, the technical aspects of playing, singing, doing what job required I was ready for it. That was one component. The second thing is I got the job was in that
Michaela: Whoa.
Tammy: meeting this person who introduced me to that person, then oh, I'm gonna call you for
Michaela: that,
Tammy: and then I'm gonna go play this showcase at the Bluebird. And then three people that see me [00:26:00] there called me for, it, was just,
a really natural evolution of being present and people and saying, yes,
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: would be the third point.
I've done a fair amount of teaching through the years, and I always tell my students, say yes.
Just say yes.
After you've said yes and you've had that experience, then if you realize. Okay. I didn't like that kind of music that I was called for, I didn't like that experience. Then you can say no to the next time, but I said yes to everything.
If my calendar allowed it and I could physically show up and be there I said, yes.
There's a, a really well known producer in Nashville now that used to love to tell this story about me, that in the nineties, you know, I was so busy and it sounds like back in the nineties, I was so busy
Michaela: around Nashville
Tammy: that I ran into [00:27:00]
Michaela: Yep. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: night.
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: And, I guess my point was I love music. love all different types of music. So why not say yes
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: possibly do it and be there because you never
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: and
Aaron: You know?
Tammy: then the next step after that is then you start saying no to the things you don't like, or you get so busy that you can't do, and then those nos start being as important as your yeses
because that starts changing your direction towards the things you really love and the things you really want to do.
Aaron: I like that. Yeah. you're touching on something that's just been kind of, ruminating in the back of my mind for the last little bit last few months, and it's, the distinction between moving towards doors that are open or. Taking the effort and the confidence and the risk of creating doors.
And I feel like, I'll take a big swing. I think like entrepreneurship right now in the world is like a very hot thing. Create your own business, be an entrepreneur, start eight [00:28:00] businesses, like all of that. And so the mindset is very much like think of what you want, create the door, make it happen, don't stop, it sounds like your approach from like the saying yes, is really just like keeping your eyes open and, following those doors are open. but know, with things such as dead reckoning or the steel drivers, you're creating your own door.
And I'm wondering like if that was a, conscious switch that you made or if there has ever been a switch, if you find yourself just still saying yes.
Tammy: the first part of the question, I guess Creating our own door. that's kind of a 50 50 because I don't think I knew when I started playing music with that group of people, those guys, that it was gonna lead to those things.
So initially I got a cold call from Kieran Kane.
He had seen me on TV with Tricia Yearwood. So when his Atlantic record was, getting ready to come out, he needed to go do some radio shows and radio tours stuff. It's how they used to send artists out me down somehow. I don't even know how he did, I [00:29:00] don't remember that story.
But Cole called me and knew of his reputation. And I loved the cocaines and knew that. They did a lot with Emmylou Harris, who was my all time favorite. And you know, just the crowd that he was associated with was, in my opinion, super
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: that time in Nashville. So he called me up, Hey, you know, would you be interested in doing this?
Yes.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: I I didn't how much money it paid.
Aaron: didn't ask
Tammy: how long it was gonna last. I just knew
Aaron: I wanted to
Tammy: it that. I knew the music was gonna be stuff that I would love and the crowd of people would be the people that I would wanna meet.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: that was a just say yes.
That Yeah. and the next thing I know. Kevin's gonna come in and do this show with us at the Bluebird. Are you up for that? Yes.
Hey, we're gonna go out and some dates. You up for that? Yes.
on my next record, I'm thinking about leaving Atlantic Records. We're thinking about starting a record label.
Do you wanna be part of that? Yes.
That's how that
Michaela: Mm-hmm. I feel like I would be remiss to not ask I feel like so many of my female friends who are [00:30:00] musicians, not solo singer songwriters who are like me, where, I just go out and play shows and I like bring my baby with me.
How did motherhood impact that and did it? being able to say yes to everything still. And also in a lot of these circles, it sounds like you were the only woman.
Tammy: it was difficult, I'm not gonna Mm-hmm.
you know, there were some things I did have to say no to,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: but it was more me, not because my husband expected me to stay home.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: With our daughter, it was me wanting to stay
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tammy: miss
Aaron: Yeah.
Tammy: those experiences. So I didn't really go back out on the road much until she was about three and a half
or four.
So the only stuff that I missed was more kind of around town again, it was great that, that my husband was a musician because his schedule was pretty fluid. So if it was something really important, know, he would step up and be the one to [00:31:00] manage. we had great family help. You know, my mother-in-law would come down and stay three or four days if it was something, that I really felt like I need to do this.
but most of my work during those early years was in town, whether it was studio work or songwriting, that type of thing. once I did go back out on the road with Reba McIntyre, then it was kinda like, wow, this is interesting. And not being the artist,
Michaela: Right? Mm-hmm.
Tammy: take her with me, you
Michaela: Yeah.
Right.
Tammy: suddenly things got really all about scheduling.
Aaron: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: know,
at the time though, I was also, an adjunct at Belmont, so, believe it or not, I had a really great resource of college girls
would get to know a lot of them as my students. And then, you know, it was really easy to go, okay, I've gotten to know this person. Hey, would you be interested in doing some nannying?
And, most of 'em were like, yeah, that'd be great. You know, so we had a handful of girls that really would come and stay with our daughter for two or three days if we needed.
because at one point, starting in 2006, [00:32:00] my husband and I, we were both on tour with Reba,
so that got pretty nutty.
the, Reba Touring and kind of the, bigger pop country, those aren't super long stretches. Right. Those would be short,
yeah, those are always great for musicians in Nashville particularly to have, pretty stable home life because you usually are just gone on weekends and you're home most either Sundays or Mondays, don't leave until Wednesday or Thursday,
Michaela: That is such a big, I feel like, in the kind of Americana scene or even we know somebody who played with Bob Dylan and they'd be on tour for like 10 weeks
straight.
Tammy: Yeah,
Michaela: is so hard.
Tammy: yeah. I remember around a mall, I think it was probably in 2005 before my husband came on with Reba, and we just happened to be out enough west that they didn't fly us
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Hmm.
Tammy: And I think I was on day 10 or 11 and I was like, do this anymore, man.
Aaron: Yeah.
Tammy: else is raising my kid.
Michaela: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Tammy: And I was just, crying and he was [00:33:00] like, no, they're not. you'll be home soon. You don't have to do this every week. You know, he talked me down, talked me through it. It was really great. But we were pretty lucky that, we never went more than probably about that, about.
days, two weeks Mm-hmm. doing road work and studio work, was there ever internal conflict with you? Like, I know a lot of people, that big tours and for instance, you know, they'll, fly home and they, land at six in the morning and then go
Aaron: right to his, to the studio. know, they, the yeah, Been there, done
Yeah.
Just deathly afraid that as soon as they say no, their phone's gonna stop
ringing. Yeah.
Tammy: Oh, all of
Michaela: You and
Tammy: it just kills you because, historically the studio work was always the better paying
Aaron: mm-hmm.
Tammy: And for those of us that are real, you know, kind of muso heads, we grew up reading the album
Michaela: Yep. Yep. That's
Aaron: where I come from,
Tammy: kind of this hierarchy of you wanted to be one of those recording musicians, not just a touring guy.
Michaela: right?
Tammy: I first got to Nashville, it was a [00:34:00] huge divide
because hardly any artists used their road band on their
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Right.
Tammy: It was the session guys. So that was the goal,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: why I hopped off the road very early. I got off the road in January of 93 because I was starting to get calls for studio
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: which is what we all aspired to at that point.
that's all I did for about 11 years some free, you know, I would go out, the reckoning stuff was in there, but we would tour very sporadically and, you know, I might go out and sub for somebody and do a weekend here or there or just limited touring stuff. I mean, I always kept playing live, but during those years, it was the publishing deal I had.
And then the recording were my two main things that I was working really hard towards. But then somewhere in the early two thousands, suddenly you had artists that were hiring their studio guys
to go out, and that started becoming more a thing because I think the [00:35:00] session world labels had started folding 'cause in the early nineties when I first got to town, there were 20 major labels.
Michaela: Whoa. Wow.
Tammy: Now what are there, like Three.
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: So you can imagine every label had a roster of at least 10 to 12 artists,
most of those artists were putting out a record. Every year the cycle was, if not a record, a year, every year and a half to two
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: So think about 200 major label artists in town
Michaela: Oh my
gosh.
Tammy: recording sessions.
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: The amount of work was massive, which is why it supported so many musicians
Michaela: Oh my God. studios because then you had a hundred or 200 or 300 publishing companies, major down to small indies. That all had a, a roster of
Mm-hmm.
Tammy: There may have even been a thousand writers in town at that time that had publishing deals,
Michaela: Wow.
Tammy: and they were all doing demos.
I mean, sessions. It was like shooting fish in a [00:36:00] barrel. My husband routinely during those years, was doing 15 sessions a week,
Michaela: Wow. Oh my God.
Tammy: I mean, triples
Michaela: And the,
Tammy: every day of the week.
Michaela: and I'm assuming the, fees for each session were considerably better than they are today,
Tammy: Oh, well it was
Michaela: or,
Tammy: on the card
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: and
Michaela: Right.
Tammy: major label records were paying double scale, which is kind of unheard of
Michaela: Oh my God.
Tammy: So it was crazy. But that arc, suddenly, country kind of started rolling out a favor. Indie pop got hot
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: and some of those labels got folded back down into Sony instead of
Michaela: Right.
Tammy: Sony and Columbia and whatever their other, under that,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: it all just became one Sony.
Michaela: Right.
Tammy: then suddenly the publishing houses started selling to the bigger,
Aaron: Yeah.
Tammy: the business started getting smaller. Less opportunity for the studio guys. So when Reba our example, suddenly she went out [00:37:00] and she hadn't had a band for a number of years 'cause she'd been in LA doing her TV show. She hired a bunch of studio
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: And started paying comparable
to doing sessions for that
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: okay, we'll go out and do that.
Michaela: Yeah. the whole mindset of being out on the road
it's so interesting. I'm, always curious we've been in Nashville for 10 years. We're in our late thirties. We lived in New York City before that. but like I always want to hear from people that have been here, working since the nineties and eighties and, I think our oldest guest was
Aaron: 86.
Michaela: Is 86. Was that Alice? Alice. Gerard. Alice. Alice Gerard was our, yeah.
Tammy: Fantastic.
Michaela: And she, and she's still touring, still going strong. But, talking about how the possibility of income has just changed so much. And I've had this conversation. One of my really close friends is a session musician and.
In different moments when she's been like, why is it so hard to make a living? And we would talk about it and I'd be like, given your resume the caliber of artists you've played with, the things [00:38:00] that you've done, like if you were doing this in the nineties, I think you would probably be so much better off financially.
And then one of the things we do like to talk about is how we can put our sense of worth attach it to our finances. And in this ever-changing music industry, it's just so hard to do that today because I feel like so many people are like, wait, I'm not making much money, so I must just be like.
Sucking at this, and it's like, well, no. That's one of the kind of ethos behind this is to pull that curtain back and be like, this isn't a you problem, this is an industry problem. it's just financially really, really difficult.
Tammy: Yeah.
Michaela: hearing that is, helpful.
Tammy: yeah. And my heart hurts, hurts for young. musicians and artists that are in their twenties right
because of that very situation that you just described. And it's not their [00:39:00] fault. They couldn't control when they were bored and when they came of age. I, I feel like this, golden time and not that everything was perfect by any means, it never is, but the time that I made it to Nashville and got those first jobs, the fact that the cost of living in Nashville was
Michaela: Oh,
yeah.
Tammy: oh my gosh.
Aaron: It's pretty
ridiculous.
Tammy: it is ridiculous. and I hate to even tell you guys this. I bought my first house when I was 26
Michaela: Yeah. What I was like, what part of town and how much was it? Yeah.
Tammy: $76,000.
Aaron: you can't buy a closet in Sylvan Park for that
amount now.
Tammy: and it was a duplex.
Aaron: Yeah.
Tammy: own it,
Michaela: Oh my God, you're, yeah.
Tammy: I know you're laughing it just, it hurts my heart that young people aren't able to do that in Nashville right
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: The cost of estate and living there is so out of bounds, with [00:40:00] what it was relative
35 years ago when I got there.
I mean, I know everything has gone up. I'm not naive and I, I understand all that,
Michaela: But incomes haven't gone up that much. Like that's when, when you ask
Aaron: what, session fees were like in the nineties, I'm like, they're probably the exact same. Yeah. It's just with inflation and cost of living,
Tammy: I think a demo probably in the early nineties was paying about 150 bucks
Michaela: Okay.
Tammy: a master for a three hour session was about 300.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: Okay.
Tammy: so, you know, it's definitely
Aaron: It's increased. up
I've heard horror stories, but not a ton of people being
Tammy: Not a
Aaron: Yeah. With the way that, really pop country music is made these days, I've seen that move more towards. in my mind, I call it kind of like an LA model where the demo is the master, people are getting hired for the demo and getting paid the demo fee, and then all of a sudden, four months later they're at Kroger and it's playing on the radio and the voice is
different.
Tammy: and here I'm gonna give a pitch for the union.
Aaron: Yes. Mm-hmm. Please do.
Tammy: if that work was on a union card, they would get [00:41:00] repaid for that. and that has become a problem in Nashville with younger players not really understanding. what a union does
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: and that they protect your work
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: that they protect by numbers,
Aaron: by having a
Tammy: card and everything being a paper trail, then they're negotiating your wage and yeah, you gotta pay a 4% work due on that.
But they're also making sure that you're not just walking in, playing on something for somebody and they're handing you 200 bucks or ven mowing you 200
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: hear it four months later and you'll never get another dime out
Michaela: Yep.
Michaela: Yep.
Tammy: I played on some demos back in the day, but because I had signed a card, when it got bumped up to a master, I got paid again for a master
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: because there was a reuse fee.
Aaron: Yeah.
Michaela:
Aaron: we're so glad that you brought that up because there is, I feel like a block we're not the youngest generation in
Nashville, but, there is this block of, of.
Being part of a union and like that collective [00:42:00] bargaining we're fully pro worker for, for all of that here. and I almost feel, and a bit of a theory and an assumption on my, but it's almost like people are so worried about getting work. That they want to be able to say yes to everything.
And this, like, having a union card there's not a ton of union work anymore percentage wise.
Tammy: you know, and frankly, yes, if somebody sends me a track, and I don't think it's going anywhere, you know, if
Michaela: Right?
Tammy: a little whatever can pay me for it and I'll play on it.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: But if it's something that I, think somebody's really gonna do something with it.
Or if it's somebody that I know their history or
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: record or whatever, I'm sorry. I want a union card.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: I played on a demo from one of the guys from Imagine Dragons
couple years ago, and fortunately, I, signed a card and they were cool with it, you know, it wasn't like they were pushing back
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: because you never know when that little piece
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: and picked up on.
I mean, it might show up on a record in three years. You
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: know. it's about protecting yourself you have to have worth in what [00:43:00] you do.
Michaela: Yeah. Have you? recordings can last for 50 years or longer, whatever. Somebody may pick up something, how often do you watch a movie and hear music from the sixties All the
Aaron: Absolutely. So I feel like I would be remiss without asking, like, or playing devil's advocate here and somebody listening, somebody younger that doesn't have a track record like yours, that doesn't have a resume like yours. I was saying like. See, I can't say that because if I say, I'm not gonna record on this unless I sign a union card, then they're just gonna find somebody else.
Like, what would you say to somebody like that?
Tammy: again, I think you have to figure
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: so that you don't have to file a separate, you know, some of it's just about the paperwork and somebody, they just don't wanna mess with it.
And when you present it in such a way that it's easy, it's not gonna cost them any more
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: than, I've just gotten them to say [00:44:00] Sure. And filled out the card myself and taken it down to the union.
Michaela: I've had indie deals, I've never had any of my sessions at Union. This is so foreign to me as someone who's paid people for 10 years to play on my records. I feel like it's just like not as common, obviously in like the bigger funded studios with the majors, with majors and everything.
It's different. But so much of the industry is the indie level that you have no idea what gonna happen with a song. So, and.
Tammy: and I do think even from an artist's perspective, and I think what a lot of people don't understand on the, label side, because made a point to sign cards for our, still driver records. there's a paper
because we've had a few songs picked up and used in movies and TV shows.
not the label that has to repay us for that. If we sign a card as players on our own record, which we
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: we all play on, it's the production company.
Aaron: Oh,
Uhhuh.
Tammy: to [00:45:00] repay that. So if you get pushback from your label saying, we don't want this, it's not costing you anything,
we take it out of our recording budget
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: You know, it's not that much out of our budget to make sure that we are basically protected. there's a paper trail on where those recordings might go.
Michaela: it feels like the wild West in a lot of ways now with the music business of just like, I'm, you know, hopeful that with the writer strike in Hollywood, there's been conversation of like, can musicians ever have collective bargaining to try and like, make change with you know, how many thousands of listens you have to get on a song to make enough to, buy a fancy cup of coffee That is also like the equivalent to an hour's work on minimum wage.
Like obviously there's great, we're, I know we're at the end of our hour, so we can, don't have to try and like, figure out wealth disparity and
Tammy: if you're not familiar with the NSAI, Nashville Songwriters Association International, they are lobbying from the songwriters [00:46:00] perspective on all. What you just described. And then the musicians union, they're always trying to lobby for protections and for coverage the biggest thing right now in Nashville is these gaming companies come in and they hire string players
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: don't wanna pay them any residuals.
They just wanna do a flat fee buyout.
Michaela: Yep.
Tammy: and I get it, but these, gaming companies are making gazillions of
Michaela: Right? Yep. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: that's another ball of wax, but it definitely falls into that other 22 hours
Michaela: Hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron: I mean, my, my little anecdote on that is, on any given year, 40 to 80% of what I do is write and produce specifically for placements in sync and
all of that. And I recently just had a song placed in, it's called MLB, the show, I'm not a gamer, but a really popular video game.
And the fee to license my song is horrible. It's one of the lowest ever on anywhere I've ever placed. And there's no residuals [00:47:00] because it's a video game.
Tammy: it.
Aaron: it's not broadcast. And I was talking to my syn rep and he's like, this is what they offer the majors and all of that.
And you look at the soundtrack of the game is incredible. I mean, you have people from like Kendrick Lamar to all of this because it gets so much exposure. And I will say, you know, we've now released the song with the release of the game.
And it, and it's done well on streaming.
You know, I'll do, air quotes well in retrospect. But it's just like, same kind of thing on, you know, licensing prerecorded stuff. It's like they kind of have that upper hand, and I know there are millions of people there daily playing that game, I got just a, fraction
of it.
Tammy: there has been, we could talk for another hour about
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: There, there has, in my lifetime, just being in the business, an incredible devaluation
of music. hurts.
Michaela: Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Tammy: very sometimes. And again, that's another thing, again, for younger people that are just trying to get going.
It's so hard to go, yes, you've gotta do this, you're awesome. Keep at it,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: for you. Because I think we've gone backward to, kind of the, times before big labels [00:48:00] and music selling to touring
Aaron: Mm-hmm. when people, you know, back in the teens, twenties, thirties. Before the real commercialization of radio and record sales
Mm-hmm.
Tammy: out and played live,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: they made their living. And that's what's happening now.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Absolutely. trying to get out and tour because that's where you're making your money. I mean, And I'm talking about big artists too.
Michaela: Yeah.
Tammy: Huge artists and that's why ticket prices have gone up because, you know, they're trying to make up that shortfall from album sales and all these other components.
And that's, labels, which is why people are willing to do the work, to do their own label because they're trying to capture
Michaela: as much.
Tammy: streams as they can. And
Aaron: Yep.
Tammy: get that.
Michaela: I think also part of like my mission, like I share a lot and I share a lot on, like, on my social media of what it's like behind the scenes to be a working musician, a mother and people have asked me even like, could you break down finances? And I'm like, Ooh, that's scary.
I can't do that yet. But I [00:49:00] think sharing this type of information for other musicians to know you're not alone in feeling how much of a struggle this isn't a, personal failing, but also to fans because music fans and supporters, I don't think everyone knows what the breakdown really is because they see big, famous artists and think, well, they're rich,
Tammy: Right.
Michaela: don't understand.
And I feel like part of my mission is to try and share this information, not in a, like, you should pity and feel bad for all of us,
Tammy: No.
Michaela: but to motivate, like, Hey, if you care about. Music and art and books how you consume it and where you consume it has great impact and power. and same for us.
I, think about that all the time of where I buy my books and really making sure that I'm putting it where I can see that it will impact and help create the culture that I want to sustain in this world so that we're not only ordering everything from Amazon and staying in our home and not connecting with people.
cause even [00:50:00] people that are in our family will say to me like, oh, you're going on tour, and, okay, so they, buy your flight and this, and I'm like, no,
Tammy: No, they don't.
Michaela: I get a,
Tammy: out.
Michaela: I get a small fee to open for somebody and I spend more than that fee to. You know, rent a car or pay for gas, get a hotel.
And really the only way I ever take home money is selling merchandise. So buy those t-shirts, buy those records. sharing this information I think is helpful because it's just people don't know.
Tammy: it's vital, And it used to just cause me to grit my teeth when we used to go out every night to the record table, you know, and try to sell stuff and sign autographs. We don't do that so much anymore, but know, and people would come, oh, I listen to you on Spotify all the time.
I'm like,
Aaron: Yeah.
Tammy: thanks. thanks. but then I realized, okay, well they were actually listening to Sturgill Simpson Station, and we came up on it and they found out about
Michaela: Right.
Tammy: they came to our [00:51:00] concert and they bought a ticket, and now they're buying a t-shirt.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Right.
Tammy: it's again that, thing that you love to hate
Aaron: Yeah.
Tammy: to
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: it's an unfair, unjust system that we also need,
Tammy: Yeah.
Michaela: we just need it to be built more equitably for artists. So it just needs to change.
Tammy: Yeah. you're exactly right. I mean, we carry as much merchandise with us every show because it's the t-shirts and the LPs are suddenly hot again, which are so heavy and hard to carry.
Michaela: Yep. I literally, they really are. Yeah. I just flew home from a one, one-off show and like the way that I packed to be, like, anticipating having enough t-shirts in the right sizes, you know, and records, and my suitcase was over. it's wild. And then I'm also lugging a four month old baby with me.
Tammy: Yep.
Michaela: Yeah. So
Tammy: People see us on stage, like, oh, still drivers. You guys want Grammys and blah, blah, blah, and you're selling out all these shows and it's great.
It's like, if you, you happen to stay at our hotel the next morning, you're gonna see us stumble down, [00:52:00] grab a coffee,
Michaela: yep.
Tammy: get in our rental car, dragging all of our stuff
Michaela: Mm-hmm. I've,
Tammy: we have two guys that travel with
Michaela: yeah.
Tammy: We're a five piece band and we have two
Michaela: Yep. Mm-hmm. I've started doing this just in the last few weeks of doing behind the scenes what it is actually like on Instagram showing like what we do as a family on tour, because I'm just like, yeah I wanna know from other people. So I'm gonna start sharing too.
Tammy: Yeah.
Aaron: in the vein of sharing we have one final question we'd like to end these conversations with, and it's just to ask is there something that somebody has shared with you along your journey that still resonates with you today?
Or conversely, it could be something that you would tell yourself, your younger self, your younger self, you know, 25 and just getting to 10 before you had that audition with Patti Loveless,
Tammy: There's kind of a famous quote by Emmi Lou Harris it comes back around into my mind quite often and I've shared it with younger artists and singers. And it's just sometimes you just gotta open your mouth and believe,
Tammy: because there's times when you're at a show and [00:53:00] you know, it's just like, what's going on?
I can't hear, I can't, you know,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: feel like you're your best thing out there. And she's just like. just gotta open your mouth and believe,
Aaron: yeah. Here we go. to me, that lights up everything, even beyond being on stage, it's making records. It's just like, just doing this,
Tammy: believe.
Aaron: yeah, yeah.
Uh. the queen. So
She really, a hundred percent. Yeah. She really is. Well, Tammy, thank you so much for taking time this
morning to, to sit and share with us. yeah. Absolutely.
Tammy: Come see us Steel driver show sometime soon.
Michaela: definitely. Yeah, we would
Aaron: love to. Yeah.
Tammy: Good
Michaela: live in.
Tammy: children.
Michaela: you. You thank you.
Tammy: They're gonna grow up and they're gonna be just fine.
Michaela: Thank you.
Tammy: daughter, she'll be 24 in October, and
Michaela: I remember feeling guilt about missing things and, I always
Yeah.
Tammy: felt, especially during junior high and high school, 'cause we were touring a lot, if I was around there 50%, that was pretty good average.
And, I'm the one now that looks back and goes, God, I miss so much. And she's like, mom, you set the greatest example for me.
[00:54:00] You were out there doing what you love
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tammy: I knew that you loved me. And it's just like, oh my gosh. Woo. Tearing
Aaron: Yeah. That's so sweet.
Michaela: I heard the other day, because we had the whole family on tour with me a week ago, and I heard Aaron playing with our daughter playing pretend with characters, and he said something about like, oh, your mom, and like, something about me and Georgia said, yeah, my mom's a singer and she plays guitar.
And I was like, just hearing her talk about me. She didn't s you know, she didn't say any qualifiers. She just like said what I did, but I felt myself be like, oh, that's cool.
Tammy: that. Very, oh, you will be the cool mom. And, my daughter has certainly gotten a lot of mileage out of when her friends realize that her mom is in the, the one that's in the steel drivers. '
Michaela: yeah. Yeah.
Tammy: group, we've got a really young fan base. I
Michaela: That's great. Mm-hmm.
Tammy: college, post-college age.
And it's just like boyfriend will send me videos of him and his buddies singing along to still driver songs. It
Michaela: I love that.
Tammy: So it'll all work out. It'll [00:55:00] all work
Michaela: Thank you so much. Thank you for that. Well, thank you again and we'll hope to see you
soon. absolutely.
Tammy: You guys were delightful.
Michaela: All right, you too.
Aaron: See ya.