The Mammals (Ruth Ungar and Mike Merenda, who also have a project called Mike & Ruthy) are a band from the Woodstock area with deep roots in the folk scene and traditions of the area, have worked with Arlo Guthrie, and Pete Seeger (amongst others), are critically acclaimed by LA Times, No Depression, NPR, PopMatters, and run the roots music festival called The Hoot. We talk with them about gratitude for the ability to create art and music, having faith in the low moments, being links in the (musical) chain, square dancing, and a whole lot more.
The Mammals (Ruth Ungar and Mike Merenda, who also have a project called Mike & Ruthy) are a band from the Woodstock area with deep roots in the folk scene and traditions of the area, have worked with Arlo Guthrie, and Pete Seeger (amongst others), are critically acclaimed by LA Times, No Depression, NPR, PopMatters, and run the roots music festival called The Hoot. We talk with them about gratitude for the ability to create art and music, having faith in the low moments, being links in the (musical) chain, square dancing, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 120, and this week we're featuring our conversation with Mike Miranda and Ruthie Younger from the mammals and Mike and Ruthie.
Aaron: Mike and Ruthie, and the mammals are staples.
In the Hudson Valley songwriter folk scene, and as we talk about in this there a link in the chain of that long lineage. If you are anywhere related to the folk roots Americana world, you understand the deep history of music coming from that part of the country. In that they've worked with Pete Seeger, Arlo Guthrie Ruthie's dad is Jay Unger, which if you don't know that name, you know, probably his composition and his fiddle playing as being the theme [00:01:00] song to Ken Burns', PBS Special, the Civil War, the mammals. Mike and Ruthie are also critically acclaimed by New York Times, no depression.
NPR Pop Matters. And on top of being fiercely DIY, releasing their own stuff, booking their own stuff, being their own publicists, running all of that, they also, produce and put on a festival up in the Hudson Valley called the Hoot. That happens twice a year.
Michaela: Yeah, and we got to really talk in depth. This hour about being that link in the chain of the traditions of folk music and the inherent political nature of folk music and kind of the expectations that can come with that.
and using your voice for imagining a new future. we talked about the practical side of being musical creative business life partners and the roles and duties, the divisions of labor, especially when you're handling everything in-house and the pros and cons of that.
Aaron: Yeah. As always, there are topics that we touch on in this conversation that come as direct suggestions from our Patreon subscribers.
That is also the sole way that you can financially support the production of this show, which [00:02:00] is substantial, even for a small show like ours. If you would like early access to who our guests are, some behind the scenes conversations, going deeper on what we talk about or the moral and, sole filling satisfaction of helping produce this show.
There's a link to our Patreon below in the show notes,
Michaela: and if you're a visual person, this and all of our past conversations are available on YouTube.
Aaron: So without further ado, here is our conversation with Mike and Ruthie, better known as the mammals.
Mike: Thank you guys so much for being on.
Michaela: on. We're so happy to get to talk. I know we've been,
Mike: Mike and I, I feel like you've
Ruth: been talking about this.
Michaela: doing this with all of us for a while now, so happy to have you.
Ruth: Yeah. This is great. It's fun to be here with you.
Aaron: So we always kind of like to start with just how are you each doing today where are you?
Michaela: Physically and creatively.
Ruth: cool. Hey, how are you, Mike? I'm great, Ruth. How are you dear? I'm doing good. I feel really full. 'cause sometimes we don't communicate about food and we both cook like an hour apart, [00:03:00] and then we both eat what the other person cooked. So
sometimes I, I feel like
we need to figure that out. That's a flaw in our communication.
This week
I just ended up eating sort of a breakfasty thing that I made, and then a sort of lunchy thing that Mike made really right. In rapid succession. So I'm feeling a little full.
but yeah, I'm good. I think physically a little bit, figuring it out like energetically, like how to have enough energy to do all the things that have to happen.
And recently quit a full-time job at the Shoken Center.
Aaron: Oh.
Ruth: is a place that my family's been involved with for so long and we're still deeply involved. We, throw the hoot, which is a festival you should come play
sometime. it happens twice a year and we also are involved in some of the camps and events there.
But for the past, like seven years, I also kind of worked a job at first really remotely from my laptop in the van,
like helping with their mass email that went out once a month. And then it eventually built into more of a [00:04:00] real organizational job and like building an events team and doing a lot and being very responsible So right now I'm like decompressing, getting back into a purely self-employed relationship to that place and all the other places that we get to travel and do stuff. So it's really great, but it's also just different and new. So I feel that my body a little bit adapting to having my schedule be my own again, which,
is just more what I'm used to.
I was raised by musicians right here
in this house. I've always been a, self-employed, musician, touring recording person, and it just feels more normal to me than, than like hours
in a more scheduled type job. So, Yeah,
having that
Michaela: though, did that give you any sense of or security financially that you don't find in the self-employed realm?
Ruth: Yeah, it did. And that is like something that most people, I think, are raised to seek, [00:05:00] which
I was not. So I enjoyed it in one way, but in another way it always felt just really alien. I can't explain it,
but, um, there's something about kind of proving the concept time after time when you are an independent musician where it's like every time you're like, can we book this festival?
Can we book this show? Okay, we did it. Can we put on a great show? Will people love it? Will we sell merch? will people buy a ticket? Okay. They did. And it's like, it's a circle of confirming it over and over that it's. What you need to be doing, you know?
Whereas I think if you just lock in a job and you're making XA year and you're like, sweet, done.
I booked my one gig, and then you just like sit there and just have this kind of, it's almost feels like an entitled feeling. I don't mean to be cold to anyone
listening out there who has a normal job. That's awesome for you. Great. I just wasn't, my thing. [00:06:00] Like it
felt
like
once you get the thing then it's almost more like passive aggressive, the way people have to prove they deserve the thing.
It's not as just direct, Did they
buy the
will that venue have you back or not? And then if it's good or it's bad, it's not the end of the world. 'cause it's not your whole gig. It's not your whole value in life. It was one night, it was one weekend, and then you
can keep
finding the more positive things if there was a negative, So it's like a collage instead of one painting,
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.
Ruth: mosaic or something. I, it just
suits me. I like it so much better. So yeah, there was more security I guess, but it, led me to feel more nervous. I don't know why.
Aaron: I can understand that.
I wasn't raised by musicians, but my dad was self-employed. He was a carpenter and contractor. So like the paradigm of
Mike: being self
Aaron: and the unpredictability of
Mike: that
Aaron: you know, how that fluctuates that was the paradigm that I was raised in as
Ruth: And you know, I've definitely gone back
Aaron: forth and like, man, I should get a job. It'd be
Ruth: great [00:07:00] to know much
Aaron: gonna make on January 1st every year. Like, Amazing.
Ruth: But the other of that
Aaron: stability and predictability is like, that is all that you're gonna make
Ruth: financially and
Mike: experiences, the lives that you live, when your entire career is based on
Aaron: what you go
Mike: out create for
Ruth: yourself, be it art or events or whatever, potential
Aaron: there is limitless,
Ruth: And I suppose, if you're an entrepreneur, whether you're contractor or a musician, Plumber, whatever. Like There could be a moment where you're just like, I'm not going to that house anymore. I don't like that lady. I'm not gonna
fix her drain and I'm gonna go do something else today. Like
you're a little more in control. Maybe that's underlying why I like it also. ' 'cause don't know it.
Aaron: You have the power to say no.
Ruth: Yeah. And it's okay. And it's not the end of their world or your world. It's like find a
better fit.
Michaela: Yeah. I think it's
Ruth: Yeah.
Michaela: really good to know just like what
Mike: our personalities,
Michaela: is suited for
Mike: and
Michaela: then therefore, what the most helpful situation to [00:08:00] find ourself in, to be able to then do the thing we most love to do. Like we,
Mike: we talk about this on podcast having,
Michaela: diversification and financial wellbeing to be able to create, like some people are much more comfortable with, like you said, the collage and being open and not quite knowing what's gonna happen, but the excitement of that and like
Ruth: being Less nervous
Mike: Yeah.
Michaela: that versus knowing, okay, I have
Mike: to for
Michaela: hours next week and I know I'll get a paycheck, whatever.
Ruth: And that we're all different. It
Michaela: taken me a long time
Ruth: very comfortable with and down of
Michaela: self-employed life. I'm just like
Ruth: other
Michaela: panicked and then feeling great and then panicked, and then feeling great.
So it's
Ruth: Yeah. I think I just trust that it averages out. You know, you find like those incredibly great pain gigs that are sometimes like soulless and depressing, but they pay awesome. And then like those really wonderful soul feeding gigs that might pay next to nothing.
And you just like, find the balance and then those unicorn gigs that [00:09:00] are beautiful and pay and you hold those very dear and you just Keep working the averages.
Aaron: Yeah. Yeah,
Ruth: exactly. Yeah.
Aaron: one thing I try to remind myself is that's normal no matter what business. Like, That's normal for Amazon we think, oh, Amazon's a behemoth. Like Everything's steady. But like, they all have profits that go up and down and they make a lot here and not a lot there.
Ruth: dunno what
Aaron: Jeff Bezos virtuously wants to sell to fulfill his soul and creative being, but
Ruth: it's probably not plastic stuff You know what I mean? So,
Aaron: I mean, Who knows? We might be, we, it might, I don't, don't even, I don't even wanna go there. But it's, so much more tangible when it's, you and your partner or just you.
Ruth: Yeah.
Aaron: shock absorbers there for sure.
Ruth: Yeah. And like we have a van that we pay and we have a van that always feels like it makes more than any of us. And, you know, we have kids and, it's not always super easy to figure it out. And
putting out a record is huge investment and
who knows if people buy them. but it's just the norm for us at this [00:10:00] point.
Mike, you talk as well,
things that I'm wonderful. Thank you for asking. Yeah. Mike is doing great. Look at him.
Mike: I am. Great. especially these days, I feel like I live a very blessed existence as you mentioned as human beings. What makes us unique is our ability to create, and if you can make a career out of creativity.
for me, that's the whole game. That's winning. And we've been able to do this for quite a long time now I guess the older I get, the less I take it for granted. I realize how unique in existence it is. And just to circle back to when Ruthie was working her nine to five, I, it was really fascinating being on the outskirts of that and just dredging along in my self-employed existence while she was all of a sudden having to be at the Tuesday meeting every morning and whatever the Tuesday meeting every morning is actually what it felt like.
Ruth: Yes.
Aaron: Yeah.
Ruth: It's, it is perfect metaphor. Yeah. Yeah. and yeah, it was great 'cause I got to like show up and play the gig, but I wasn't as involved in like advancing the gig or, but what
was interesting is
Mike: Ruthie. [00:11:00] Brought the self-employed ethos to that job in that if there was work to be done and it wasn't done by the end of the day, she would just keep working.
Whereas a lot of her coworkers, five o'clock, they were out. And that's just not how musicians role. Like we just work till the job is done,
for better or for worse. That's not always the most healthy way to approach Yeah, the tasks at hand. But that is often what it takes to succeed, right?
You just keep grinding kind of 22 hours as your podcast would suggest.
I mean, you guys have the and then when you aren't doing the you guys have your duo project. Mike and Ruthie, you have two festivals, you have two kids you teach at camps, you do a
of different together.
Michaela: I'm not knowledgeable of the stuff that you guys do.
A part besides the asokan job. can you elaborate on, as life creative
Mike: Parent
Michaela: business
Mike: partners have, you had to have
Michaela: explicit conversations of like,
Mike: [00:12:00] okay, when do
Michaela: turn off, when do
Mike: we prioritize,
Michaela: this is family time and we don't talk about work, or we don't look at our phones,
Mike: or we check an email.
Have you guys had to have organizations? discussions or has it been pretty natural to find that?
Ruth: I think like the most important ones are when there's something that's like right in conflict, like a tour. At the same time it's like our kids' big recital or game or something like that. especially when you have kids that are doing things they're super proud of and they want you to be there.
Like I said, my parents are both musicians, so like weekends were not like other people's weekends.
I was always staying at a friend's house. My parents were never at the thing, you know,
I shouldn't say never. They were, you know, like if there was a play I was in, they would probably make an effort.
And I feel like that's the balance that we're doing too. We're not necessarily around every weekend to do everything, but the job that I quit, is to literally drive our daughter to ballet and pick up her and her friends and go and do just the [00:13:00] mundane, not even to be at the big shows, but to be transport and support, you know, to be
like, you need a snack. You know,
Just really
be mom.
So that was an explicit conversation around like. working that job was a lot of responsibility, a lot of stress for me, like on my mind and spirit because I really love that place. I care about it deeply and I'm really grateful to the people that, ended up forming an events team that can do all the stuff, so it's still going and it's amazing and I get to participate in somewhat more creative ways now.
But I think part of that decision that we talked about was to have more time for both the kids and the music just throughout the week and throughout the day less strain. I think, yeah. And you guys were just asking about like when to turn off, even just like at home or something.
There'll be moments where it's like, Mike, have you stared at your laptop for enough hours? And can you now like, go do something outside with kids, please. but it's not like a
big [00:14:00] conversation. It's just like,
no, I actually have to get this thing to upload, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Or like, okay, fine. Or like, yes, I'm putting it away. Let's go play Wiffle ball or something. We're, we are, right. we're
Mike: in an, we are in a quote album cycle right now. Yeah. So like the laptop work is especially intense these weeks. Right.
And basically for the rest of the year. But I've found a new rhythm In my day to day, like my mornings are kind of, sacred to me. when I can, easier when the weather's nice, when you can get up early with the sun go be outside and like, just have a couple hours to myself in the morning to ease into the day and not just jump right on the phone, jump right on the laptop which can happen very easily when there's things to do.
But I've tried to protect those morning hours and just have them be for me. And then similarly in the afternoon, like If I really am diligent, from 10 to three, I can get an awful lot done. And
then kids get home from school around three. And like Ruthie said, the kids are home and like, if the brunt of my tasks were accomplished can't wait to get off the computer and just like, have my [00:15:00] life and, and really enjoy it.
Where I think 10 years ago I would've felt more anxious about all the things I hadn't accomplished yet. I've been able to find a happy balance that is really working for not just keeping the train on the rails, but my wellbeing.
Ruth: couple. real though.
The anxiety about not crossing off. Your list
organize your and, and organize
Aaron: approach to your list in a
Ruth: a way that like, you're okay to put
Aaron: down whether it's incomplete
Ruth: incomplete, not.
you
Aaron: I've become much I've become myself at. able to leave my list behind, like especially this time of year when it's nice, and our daughter gets home. I'm like, I'd rather be outside in the sun with my kid doing whatever with the keyboard that I need to be
Ruth: Yeah. We just got back from a trip to Greece, which was,
Incredible. We got to play music and do a little teaching, but a lot of just enjoying being there. And we always launch summer hoop ticket sales on June 1st at 9:00 AM which happened to be 4:00
PM
in Greece.
Aaron: mm-hmm.
Ruth: So like, it was really funny. I was like sitting there doing what I normally do on my laptop to get it to [00:16:00] go. But like in Greece in our room and we had wifi and it was able to happen. But that was a really interesting day of balancing like all that, because we were technically on like a gig, but it was also kind of a vacation.
And
one of those crazy days and it all worked out there was only a couple typos in that first graphic and got those fixed in 24 hours before we printed anything and
Mike: we just had this West Coast tour that I've been working on for. bunch of months. kind of Fell through. ' the anchor festival gig that we needed they decided they want to have us next year and not this year.
So, which is, I mean, God bless 'em, they want to have us next year, but like,
you know, you know how it is all those
holds and all that routing that you had mapped out. when I got that email, this was just like a week ago, and I said to Ruth and again, album cycle, you're trying to like capitalize when the record's fresh and new and whatever
buzz you're able to generate and just hit, it'll
Ruth: be new for three years.
Mike: Well that's how album cycles work for us. We really rock them a long time. Gotta
Ruth: be. It's gotta us,
Mike: so, [00:17:00] but anyway the West Coast run in February and March seemed like it was gonna fall through. And I said, well, what do you think Ruth? can we actually cobble this together without the anchor?
Like, I know it's kind of crazy, but you know, there's a couple grand here and there's a couple grand here and like we might be able to thread the needle. And she's like, we could. Or you could just go to all of Opal's hockey games in February. and that actually
Aaron: Yeah.
Mike: made the difference. 'Cause I
was already feeling bad about missing them.
And, she just reminded me like, there's other wonderful things so we could be doing with winter,
Ruth: that she's being a hockey, weekends hockey because the weekends are
Mike: valuable. And, as Ruthie also reminded me the other day, it's like we've done, as you guys have like a lot of wonderful things for our kids.
but they're not gonna remember most of it that's already happened. They're gonna remember basically like from now forward. She's like, so
now is like the time to make it count.
Ruth: I maybe did say that. ' realize all the stuff we did, all the care that went into.
The years they do not remember. And it's kind of heartbreaking, isn't it? when I think about it, I'm like, we were building [00:18:00] the subconscious then and the work mattered, but now we're building the conscious memories,
Michaela: Yeah.
Ruth: oh, okay.
Michaela: Well,
Ruth: And it's not only out of concern for that, but it's like, you know, it's, a thing, man.
Yeah. We
Aaron: With our older daughter who's, four, she's not even that old. she'd spend time in the van with
Mike: yeah,
Aaron: like flew all over the country. We went to so many festivals. We went to Europe for like three weeks. We're like,
Ruth: that was awesome.
Aaron: No, she doesn't even No now. She doesn't even remember it now. She remembers like us telling the story Right. But
Ruth: I do think, and I know you're like,
Michaela: saying this with some joking, like it does like build their character
Mike: And the way that
Michaela: they perceive the world.
Like sometimes to a detriment. Like Georgia has grown up now these first
Mike: four years,
Michaela: feeling like
Mike: everyone in the world so
Michaela: and
Mike: welcoming '
Michaela: cause everywhere she's gone, that's how she's been treated. And I've lately been like, she
Ruth: off off.
Michaela: Like
Ruth: literal,
Michaela: [00:19:00] parties we've been at where I'm like, where did
Ruth: where? And she comes back oh, I just went outside down the street
Michaela: to the car. And I'm like, you are three's. You're not allowed to do that. And that's two
Ruth: blocks away. walked down the street two blocks away You're like, we're not, we're, we're not at a folk festival. Like,
like we're not like
Michaela: Like,
Aaron: yeah. Where like anybody would be like, Hey, let me help you some.
Yeah.
Michaela: I was like, random person pick outside not gonna like the sweet teenage daughter of the folk band, Right. other festival that we've, you know, and I was just like,
I didn't even know what to do. I just blurted out like, someone could take you,
Mike: right,
right, right. Right. car.
And she looked at me and was like, what?
Michaela: No like,
Mike: Yeah. It's to say, I
Michaela: the music business tells us
Mike: that every opportunity is possibly our last
Michaela: it gives us these messages of like
Mike: every gig,
Michaela: every tour you have to say yes because you never know when that opportunity's gonna come around again.
And also, time is always running out because youth [00:20:00] is much more valued
Mike: than middle aged and older. So it gives you this, this Idea
Michaela: that
Mike: has to
Michaela: priority if you
Mike: be
Michaela: to be successful and you have to sacrifice
Mike: everything
Michaela: And I think like we each lived our lives that way for our twenties. and then I got pregnant at 34 in the pandemic.
And life has continually changed in a way to show me that, if that's true or not, I don't
Ruth: actually
Michaela: wanna live that way.
Ruth: yeah,
the thing that I think beautiful about having kids where in the past if we'd be like, we need some boundaries to help our wellbeing of like, don't work on Saturdays or don't work on Tuesdays or whatever then something would come in and be like, well, but I can, it's okay.
Michaela: And it would just bleed over and we would just be working constantly. Where with kids, I find that it's much more like. No, this is not negotiable because it's not like we're gonna stretch ourselves thin. We're gonna disappoint our child that we love, who we want time with, and also wants time with [00:21:00] us.
And there's much more motivation to safeguard personal life and nurture personal life. At least in my experience, that has made music more enjoyable, although, the pie of my time less
Ruth: for me. Yeah. I remember when we first had Will and he was a baby all the way up to, Opal being two or three, but basically the whole nursing years, it was crazy. 'cause early on as a band, I did a lot of the businessy stuff. Like I did the merch, I counted all the money, I paid everybody.
I did a lot of the booking early on. And then slowly Mike took over those things when I was like super pregnant or nursing a baby until it was like he was really doing. all of that stuff. And I could just show up, be in a green room, nursing, not even sound check, and then just like hand off this full baby to someone and go out and sing into [00:22:00] a mic that was checked already by him.
Just fine. You know,
like all those things I thought were so important. you were talking about the pie
and like how many hours you have to do whatever. So, We just had to become a lot more efficient with who could do what when, because obviously like tiny babies, they completely need your time and your literal
physical body.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Ruth: Uh,
so that was a real big shift. yeah, and I think that is just, something you learn from and, breathe through and I did wanna say even like thinking about the kids and what they'll remember or not, it's also the memories that I'm almost losing like of when they were little and the stories that, like you said, like am I only remembering it?
'cause we tell the stories. will had this poem he did, I wanna say in like the fourth grade they had to write a poem and his was so evocative. And it was about like van life. It was about being in the green room or the sound check and like being carried home from the van or something.
I'm gonna like
cry. It was so cute.
Ruth: he was the fourth grader with the poem about that, but [00:23:00] besides that, I'm like, it's really hard to even close my eyes and remember them that small, like the pictures and the videos that we have are, gold. 'cause it's like, wow, you really even, we forget it.
So I really want the memories too. I really want the time to. Not just blur through it. 'cause I think when I was nursing and when I was like a newer mom and they were little and it was just like so much,
I think it's harder to remember, you know, your brain purposefully washes a lot of that.
There are a lot of things that people remind me of and I'm like, oh, was that around that time? Yeah. I'm not gonna remember that.
Aaron: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Ruth: So I'm like, maybe these years if I like take a breath and I'm present, I can actually lock in here a little bit and it's important times for us,
Aaron: yeah.
Aaron: I have a question going back to what you were saying about like when you were super pregnant and Mike took over these things. totally resonates with me of like. no, this my responsibilities. And being so into it and then realizing like, oh, I can just hand this off and it's just fine.
Ruth: tune a fiddle.
Aaron: as we all know, there are so many tasks [00:24:00] and responsibilities in keeping something running. how much is this delegation of responsibilities is intentional versus like just circumstantial?
Do you guys sit and actually like carve out like, Hey, this is my strength you guys have been at it for so long. Like, Have you guys done that over the years or has it just kind of been more by happenstance, what
Ruth: Well, I think Mike's been doing so much particularly 'cause I had that job too. So it was like the kids, the job. And now the past like few months, I've been like, I am here. Remember like I we're trying to figure that out again actually, all this shit.
Yeah.
Like, uh, Am I not doing this now for a reason or just 'cause you forgot that I know how to do it.
So like, we're having
to really
reassign me certain things now. And we did, we kind of were like just so it's not a mess? What would be a clean line? And I was like well, maybe I can be advancing shows 'cause you're so far into the future booking them. And I'll just be like the short range gal.
I'll be
like, hotels,
tour book, you
know, that kind of stuff. And like, is their back line and who's our, on our guest list and stuff. But he still doesn't send it to me and [00:25:00] does it.
Aaron: Yeah, because you guys are like completely independent, right? So you're handling your releases and booking yourself,
Mike: and managing yourself
and publicity and social
media and all all the stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
Ruth: We've never even really worked with a producer on a record. No. We are staunchly independent for better or for worse. I don't know. it. I mean, We have had agents before and we have one, a non-exclusive situation, which, gets us one really good gig a year,
usually
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Ruth: ish.
Mike: It's enough to not part ways. Yeah.
But it, um, it's my, it's my, attitude. It's like, okay, I'll, take that one great gig a year, but
we're gonna even, even though there's a fair amount of frustration in that relationship as well.
Ruth: But we definitely do a lot of things, so there's plenty of things to split up between us.
Mike: One thing that we never did though, and we made this conscious decision, was we never started a podcast together, which is something that you guys are doing, which is kind of amazing. And I remember,
this is the selfie. question for sure.
Yeah. Well, I, I, applaud you and [00:26:00] it's funny 'cause we actually had a publicist friend, out in LA years ago, she was like podcast, like 15, podcast 15 or 20 years ago.
She's like, you guys should start a podcast. And she was absolutely right. I mean, do have a podcast, not in music, but I think I told you, Mikayla, you know, it's it's like in the health and wellness space, which is kind of random, but, I love podcast life. I love the scene. I love the field.
It's like the wild West still. But I remember Ruthie saying when she suggested, when Allison suggested we do a podcast together, Ruth's like, no. Like we do everything else together. Like I'm drawing the line somewhere. Like you, I don't remember this conversation. If you even said like, you could do a podcast, I was probably nursing a
Ruth: baby.
I was like, go fuck yourself. Yeah. Kind of it like, I'm not, she's like, go nuts
Mike: and start a podcast. Or maybe you were gonna start like the mother parent podcast or something like that. But she's like, no more collaborative thing is like everything else in our life is collaborative.
Ruth: Yeah. Like let's do a new thing together.
that relationship with me just playing in her band, and
Mike: we were very deliber,
Aaron: the beginning of like. Or
Mike: I'm I
Aaron: want her to
Mike: feel
like
Aaron: she needed to hire me just 'cause I was her [00:27:00] boyfriend slash husband, you
Mike: Yep. And I also did mad
Aaron: cause I like messed
Mike: up the
Aaron: to her song when she's really mad at me. 'cause I,
Mike: bridge, right.
Aaron: you know, it's like, so we kept that very separate and then it evolved into
Ruth: Ing record.
Aaron: which is still like me in service to her and her songs and her art.
this is really the first thing that we've done
Michaela: that's like together,
Aaron: that are like equals
Ruth: like, if there's a disagreement, it's not very clear who's gets to say the answer. Yeah. Everything else
Aaron: I'm wrong. And this one it's like we could, maybe both of us are wrong.
Ruth: You know,
it's,
Michaela: will, I will say though that with this podcast,
Mike: it's very much like
Michaela: we separated. Tasks based on our strengths. Mm-hmm.
Ruth: mm-hmm.
Michaela: I am so not interested in anything tech or like production, production, anything.
So Aaron does all of it. So
Ruth: in some ways, like I would maybe a little more to
Michaela: in this situation
Ruth: Yeah. because
he
does a lot of
Michaela: the nitty gritty
Ruth: free work that
Mike: Mm.
Michaela: I [00:28:00] could never do if I wanted to do a podcast by myself.
Mike: So I feel like yeah, I get that lifting.
Michaela: I do like.
Mike: the
a and r, like I do,
outreach.
Michaela: the booking. Yeah. Yes.
Mike: but even this
Michaela: is like, we're three years in and I reflect back like the conversations we have and the mission of this podcast to like influence,
Mike: how we handle
Michaela: the work of this podcast. Because
Mike: literally
Michaela: two days ago we're like,
Mike: we handle this anymore?
right?
Michaela: a second kid, like this is
Mike: so much And
Michaela: just like any creative work endeavor, entrepreneurial, it costs money before it makes
Mike: mm-hmm.
Aaron: exposure is great.
Michaela: Yeah. But the exposure.
Mike: keep, definitely are like, should we stop at end this year?
Michaela: we manage this?
Mike: How are we doing that?
Michaela: Do we need to
Mike: We can figure our schedule? Like it's a whole
Ruth: other. Thing to have Mm-hmm. same discussion we have about music end of the day, it's kind of like,
Michaela: do we get out of this?
Ruth: what?
Michaela: we get to have conversations that are really [00:29:00] fulfilling for us.
Ruth: Yeah. anytime that we're we not this anymore? It's when we're in the brunt of like
Michaela: booking and emails and, the tedium and then we sit on a conversation and we're just like, oh yeah, this, this is great.
Ruth: I mean, and that's exactly like us throwing our festival, like at the festival every year. Like This is why we do all that stuff. And the rest of year we're like, why are we doing this? What are we
doing? Why is that Again, with this, you
know, then you're there and you're like, oh, the people, they're having a good time.
Michaela: yeah. You have to have faith in the low, moments.it think me come back like in music
Mike: these are the only
Michaela: that I know, I don't know what else is out there that, I'm sure there's plenty of other fields that people would this to, but always comes back to the people.
for me, like playing music is so enjoyable.
Mike: Yes, I love music, but I love playing
Michaela: for people and being
Ruth: with other musicians Mm.
Michaela: other music and
Mike: bunch of other
Michaela: we have to go through to get those [00:30:00] moments. same with
Mike: the
Michaela: my favorite part is like the actually connecting to people and having this structured
Mike: and that allows us to go
Ruth: that
Michaela: we wouldn't, if we were just sitting at catering at a festival.
Maybe we would, you don't know, but like, it's really just the avenues to have more and deeper human connection.
Ruth: That's true. And I remembered one thing which you were kind of just pointing out, like how we are in a way in service to the audience and to the, like a feedback loop of energy. And also you were talking about like being like, I'm in her band and I'm in service to her project.
But I was thinking about that with our band. We don't really have that, but we do with each song. Like it's my song or
his song. very rarely is it
really 50 50. Like and we're serving the song and the song is
somebody's
baby. But it's really like, we try to serve each song.
Mike: Yeah, like I'm the set list guy I actually spend a lot of time thinking about set lists and night to night.
I don't like to make a set [00:31:00] list to like, I arrive at the place and sort of get a gauge on what the feel is like and what's gonna be like, and I'll show it to Ruth right before we hit the stage. And I'll, she'll be like, it's like six Ruth songs in a row. I'm like, yeah, but it's a great show.
Ruth: it's, it's, he does tend to front load the set list with my songs these days. Like hardcore, I'm like, okay, I hope I'm warmed up to six in a row.
Mike: Yeah. But it's like I said,
it's about, it's about the song, it's about each individual song. I guess even though we write individually, they go into this pot called The Mammals, and
then
you just use like the strongest hand that you got in that moment.
I don't really think about it as my song. Your song, these are just mammals songs.
Ruth: Once they're in a set and you're making a set list, I guess I was more thinking like, I feel like the only time it matters, like who's serving who, it's like when there's a conflict, if it's like, I told you to cut that verse of a song and you, you're like, it's not happening ' cause it's your song.
I'm like,
okay, nevermind.
Aaron: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Ruth: You know, that's maybe a, very plain example, but also if you're like arranging something or whatever and you're just
like, I don't feel like,
this is the [00:32:00] right drum feel, or I don't, know should there be organ or not? sometimes you let a song go that you wrote because it's in good hands and you're not like
controlling it.
But if something pops up and it's your song band, you're gonna say, Yeah. Yeah. I
Aaron: Yeah. I
Ruth: I mean,
Aaron: important. Like I like to say like, there's too many sheep and not enough shepherds. Like there needs to be somebody that is the final say.
Ruth: no matter what, no matter
Aaron: collaborative it is, I think there needs to be somebody that like, it's understood, this is the final decision.
even if we were a duo.
Ruth: Yeah. So you guys are like, okay,
Michaela: it's a mike song, if we get into a disagreement, Mike gets final say.
Ruth: Yeah,
Michaela: song,
Ruth: yeah, and we don't even really get there because it's all already obvious, and I guess, you know, then there's the decisions around like, that tour that we almost kept even without The financial anchor, and it was just like if we do it the following year, we can really plan it great, and it'll be good.
But we, definitely took the 20 or 30 minutes to map it out, two or three ways of still doing it this year. Like, well, What if this was before that? And then we go around this like, we [00:33:00] just mapped it all out and just did this, all this thought, and then let it go. And I think there
wasn't a moment where I was gonna be like well, I'm putting my foot down. We're not doing it, I don't know, we are both really good at like pro and con, like A and B, sitting
within decision long enough to be like, okay, either one of these, we'll figure it out.
Like we could have done the tour, it would've been fine. But I think we're both happy that we. Are doing it another time,
Aaron: Yeah,
Ruth: and we do have a really, a bunch of gigs coming up in July. We have some stuff to look forward to in the fall, and you know, we have plenty going on, so,
yeah.
Aaron: We've kind of come to a place like that I like to say it's yes we, can do that, but like, should we, you know, it's like
Mike: capable
Aaron: people,
Mike: Yeah,
Aaron: for long enough. We've been in the grind for long enough.
It's like, yeah, we can grind this out and it'll be fine. And it's not gonna kill us, and it's not gonna make us crazy. Like we, but like,
Michaela: do we want to.
Mike: Yeah.
Michaela: Like, what if
Aaron: we didn't, you know, yeah, if, what if we just took the easy path? At which point we both sit there and go, what's that?
Michaela: That's, that's
Mike: Yeah. How [00:34:00] do you do that?
Aaron: Yeah.
Mike: Yeah.
Aaron: wanted to shift a little bit, and just talk about you guys are, the scene that you guys have literally grown up in, but then also are in like, and the music that you guys make and that we make, music, folk music, Americana, like the Hudson Valley is known you know, Ruth growing up in the family you grew up in having, you guys perform with PC or all of that.
Is there, does either like the family that you've grown up in or the scene that you are a part of is that intimidating ever? do you guys feel like
Ruth: Hmm.
Aaron: syndrome ever? Do you you feel the weight of having to carry this.
Tradition or this sound, you know, does that, weigh on your creativity or responsibility? Responsibility or is that like a sense of pride and inspiration?
Mike: It's a good question. there's this whole links in the chain element to folk music and like,
passing of the torch
and I honor that and welcome that and en enjoy that element of it. Honestly, with the world being so upside down, especially the last five years, this is gonna sound horrible, but I feel like much of the scene.
Has imposter syndrome, and I'm like, [00:35:00] where the f did everybody go? That's kind of how I feel has happened to the folk scene in terms of like really digging deep and creating truthful work that is non divisive. I see the scene really breaking into a left right dichotomy because, you know, folk music is synonymous with like, protest songs and
political elements and I've felt very abandoned by it, honestly.
And so it's
funny to use that term imposter syndrome because I, know exactly what you mean, but I've been kind of at a loss to try and figure out how we ended up where we are. And it seems like a lot of our compatriots aren't necessarily on the same road anymore. So that's something that I've been grappling with.
Michaela: can you elaborate a little bit? Do you mean. Like they've gone away from social commentary rhetoric within their music or,
Ruth: I think maybe what Mike's getting at is something that's even broader than music and more like how isolated and bubble [00:36:00] like we've become, you know,
people just on social media and in echo chambers where everybody thinks the same as them and anybody who doesn't is terrible.
I think there's a lot of that atmosphere and context to what you're talking about maybe. And then the feeling when we were in our early twenties was we were very supported. I don't remember ever feeling imposter syndrome except that I can't play the fiddle as good as my dad. And I
wish I could and I never will.
And I know it and every time I play it, if someone said that was good, I'm like, I know it was not compared to what I wish it sounded like, but that's okay. I've
grappled with that little specific imposter syndrome. but yeah, as far as like being a representative of the music and some of the parts of your original question, like I feel like that's the part that's really positive, that I feel really connected.
I feel really supported. I feel that at Ashoka we're trying to teach people how to like, pick up these instruments and play them and [00:37:00] telling people like, don't feel like an a er. Like Pick it up, do it. Somebody's gotta play that banjo. Might as well be you. Like everybody should be invited to do it.
Then I think where you're coming from is almost more like the topical part, like the songwriter part and like the message, right? Sure. Like not about the, whether you play claw hammer or three finger style banjo you're talking about when we started out, we were rabble-rousing and Mike had a song, you know, like an anti-war song in the George W.
Bush era that got us in a whole lot of trouble on tour because we came from the, bubble of the Northeast where it was folk festivals and everybody was singing anti-war songs, that it was
just like normal.
And then we like traveled with Arlo Guthrie and like opened for him in places like Louisiana and Northern Michigan.
And people walked right up in the front and gave us the finger.
Aaron: Oh, wow. Mm-hmm.
Ruth: they were, They were like, you can't sing against our commander in chief. that kind of stuff. And we were like, oh, like the country's big and we're young and naive. And so we learned a lot. And then we [00:38:00] started to try to sing about what we were for instead of what we're against and sing more to manifest good things and really put a lot of effort into that.
And I think that like some of the stuff that we have come to think about in the past, three or four or five years a little bit differently now, we haven't even fully put into song yet,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Ruth: but we just feel this like pressure almost to, fit in with a left right binary that we don't really agree with anymore.
And then
Ruth: we're very much into like, well, what song can we write that really is universal? That really still is true to us? What things can we say on stage that feel really true to us? That will still resonate with like the classic mammals fan perhaps,
or folky,
but that might also reach across some imagined fucking line that doesn't exist and remind other people out there that.
We're here for everybody. it's really hard. to say [00:39:00] it ' there was a time when nobody was on tour. We're just sitting around our house, not allowed to do anything we
ended up hanging out with our neighbors who we never would've thought we hung out with based on the political signs they put up.
And then that's who was kind to us.
Aaron: Yeah.
Ruth: So we won't forget that.
And you know, maybe that's just a, tiny sliver of maybe some of what you were talking about. I
Mike: think so. I mean, just to hit the nail on the head. People will come up to me and be like, you know, where's your anti-Trump song?
And I'm like, I will never write that song ' I wouldn't say this to them, but internally I'm thinking that's not a productive use of my time. That's
just creating more division. I would like to write the song that creates more unity and community building and ideas about decentralization and thriving in small groups, but healing, frankly, energy.
Like I'm so. Over the mainstream culture that it's just this energy suck. And so I've stopped giving my energy to it. I
basically,
ignore it. It takes work to ignore it, honestly. I find that that's a big part of why I'm much happier these days [00:40:00] is because
I stopped trying to like bang my head against that brick wall that for a lot of my career, I did bang my head against it kind of willingly.
Like, I felt it was my obligation not only is it not productive, but I don't see it actually making a difference. And
so it's like Ruth said, I think we're still trying to figure out how to thread that needle and be true to ourselves and our muse and our creativity and kind of take our audience along with us, because I don't wanna alienate anybody either.
So as I generally say, when this conversation of. Politics comes up, and of course political is the personal. My politics have gone full. Utah Phillips, if you know who Utah Phillips is, he is
a,
an old bearded folk singer storyteller who passed away maybe 10 or 15 years ago. Anita DeFranco made a record with him called the, past didn't go anywhere, he basically was a card carrying, quote unquote anarchist voluntary, who believed that all interactions between men and women should be voluntary and without threat of violence or coercion.
And I didn't really know what that meant when I was young. [00:41:00] It just kind of sounded cool, but as an adult, I know exactly what that means and I've really embraced that. And frankly, the biggest culprit against those principles. Is organized government, they have a monopoly on violence, they have a monopoly on coercion.
And as I become, in my middle age here, I realized I don't want anything to do with that. So I'm trying to build a world outside of that box, but we're all brought up in a paradigm where we don't realize there even is an outside to that box. So it's a really interesting challenge and journey,
intellectually and creatively to figure out how to present these ideas in a way that makes sense to people.
because when I say what I just said to you, that line, I'll use that as an intro to a song. I'll get like a. A round of applause and sometimes a standing ovation just for presenting that idea. But then when you take it the next step, that means that the biggest culprit is the US government.
Then people sit down, they go, oh wait, I didn't realize that. That's what you're insinuating.
It's really interesting terrain to be exploring, but that's what I mean. It's like, I feel like that is my job as a folk singer. That [00:42:00] line of Woody Guthrie to a folk song should disturb the comfortable and comfort the disturbed.
And we live in such unprecedented times right now that it's no small thing to disturb the
comfortable. It's a really big deal. And so I'm not trying to disturb anybody necessarily, but I am trying to keep it real and I'm finding that it's a really narrow pathway to walk
in the times of cancel culture in the times of like real knee jerk reactions to, any, that someone dares to sort of go out and say that's outside of the standard talking points.
So I guess that's what I mean is that I'm feeling a little bit marooned these days. As an artist, but uh, it's actually a really wonderful challenge to forge my path in this scene that we've been in for so long with a lot of like, cherished friends and, community and to be myself. that's a struggle
that I'm, I'm navigating
Ruth: maybe to try and bring it around to like the Hudson Valley and the history of, this place that [00:43:00] you asked
about a little bit.
that question could have been about like, playing music, or about like political songwriting, which, this area is known for all of it. All of
it.
Aaron: Yeah.
Ruth: I will say there was a time when we're far away, we say we're from Woodstock, of course we live in West Hurley, which is near there and it's.
Place that's very storied and legendary and people think of it in different ways when you go out in the world. And you know, I think we're proud to somewhat, you know, represent whatever the face of that is. My dad being a fiddle player who grew up in the Bronx and, traveled
around, learned a lot of different styles and learn from a lot of older fiddlers in the Hudson Valley.
And square dancing was a thing here, and Pete and Toshi met at a square dance. you know, And I think there's a certain amount just to the, tunes and the, the merging of like kind of northern New England and Southern Appalachian and like that. It's a nice place in between all of them really.
So I really treasure that. I'm trying to play more tunes with my dad. That's another thing. I have a little more time to do these days. And he lives right next door. And our [00:44:00] son, who's 17, came home from music camp. last
week saying he's a bass player and he is like, I have to be an old time fiddler by the next time I go back there.
Because like when, when you show up at the jam and there's already a bass, what else
can I do? You know? So, and he's been playing. if you're trying to carry it up there,
Aaron: an upright base across that island in the dark, it's gonna be a
Ruth: hell that too. So he is, uh, he is, stoked. He is been playing every day. And we played with my dad the other day on Father's Day you know, learning these tunes and keeping that chain going of just like getting people on their feet, easy square dances.
Like my childhood, my dad was calling dances at weddings and he's not a dance caller, but he's good enough to do that at a wedding. And
then I learned those same like three or four dances and I'll do that at a wedding or at a gathering. people go home with these memories.
'cause they
were at this wedding and they dance with old, you know, uncle Jack and Aunt Clara and they, oh, you'll never believe what happened at this wedding. You know, And just [00:45:00] like when you're really talented dance caller, you can call for. Experienced dancers. And when you're me or my dad, you can call for kids drunks and beginners, which is, you know, that's where the fun is,
and this music is meant to be cathartic and fun and easy entry point for all humans of all ages and
any kind of background. And so to me that's where, you know, the real pride is that I think you asked about
earlier. I do feel proud to know that and to pass that on and to have kids who will get up and square dance or make their friends do it with
them, or, you know, yeah, I think it was fifth grade, I can remember doing square dancing in gym.
And it was so embarrassing. So embarrassing. Oh, Yeah. And it was,
it was to a record I had to pretend I didn't know. Because it was so uncool. It was so uncool that I went to square dances on the weekends and no one knew that, and I wasn't gonna let them know that. And the teacher was teaching the shit wrong.
I was such a kid who would've wanted [00:46:00] to, and the music was
Mike: probably some bizarre character,
Ruth: but I didn't correct. 'cause then they'd know that I knew what a DOI dough was supposed to really
look like.
And uh, but like, my kids aren't like that. Like they wanna do it. They're
into it.
Like, to
me that's a huge point of pride to just feel like we're keeping something going for another generation. There's a square dance that's a kind of late night at the Hoot for just like anyone to try. It's not about being
amazing at it
Michaela: I
Ruth: I mean.
Michaela: love that, that kind of like continuous lineage and tying back to what I was hearing Mike say
Mike: I think like we went a particular time where yes,
Michaela: there's so much.
Mike: Going on so much like bombarding us all
Michaela: So much unprecedented
Mike: times over and over and over again. And as artists, we have to grapple what are the messages that we share? What do we think our responsibility
Michaela: What do we feel
Mike: aligns with like
Michaela: soulfully, [00:47:00]
Mike: spiritually?
And then what things that we're told we have to do to be able to make this a career and to survive in this way?
And if that's part of it,
Michaela: you know, you don't wanna alienate people and you gotta be on social media and you gotta participate in all these things
Mike: mm-hmm.
Michaela: maybe
Mike: doesn't align with you.
then what you really want is to have person to person nuanced conversations where you're not just a box of,
oh, we think of Michael
Michaela: Ruthie and the mammals as. Lefty folkies. So they should write an anti-Trump song where you're
Mike: like well, actually
Michaela: life
Mike: is so much more nuanced than that, but we don't operate right now
Michaela: in
Mike: Victims
Michaela: that allow for that depth And I think, and I hope that
Mike: that's why
Ruth: shows
Michaela: where you can be in conversation with an audience camps and festivals where you're in small community is actually where
Mike: that can happen.
Michaela: And not on social media and [00:48:00] not in, massive
Mike: Mm-hmm. because such a window in
Ruth: everything happening all the time
Michaela: our phones that it can take work to
Ruth: be like, I wanna focus on this Yeah. have this conversation a lot this year
Mike: of so
Michaela: with
Mike: what's
Michaela: in the world, what's happening in
Mike: in the, in the government, how it impact us,
Michaela: it impacts our neighbors, and okay, what can we control, we can impact our children's lives, our neighbor's lives, our friend circle.
Mike: that is kind of going against,
Michaela: the grain these
Mike: against,
Michaela: to really focus on that and be like, this is okay. I don't have to be so
Mike: broad all the time.
Yeah. this is the micro versus the macro. And I think you hit the nail on the head. hyper localism and the scale and the scale where
Ruth: you can actually make a connection. And one
Mike: of the beautiful silver linings of, the
lockdown era was
before that I found that we were traveling around the world speaking about localism, but we weren't actually doing a lot of it.
And then when we were actually sort of stuck at home, we had [00:49:00] no choice but to go deep, local and like, meet the neighbors, share vegetables, start a
garden, grow some mushrooms. And
that's, been the best years of my life so far,
Ruth: yeah.
Mike likes to say he never had put a seed in the dirt until 2020.
Mike: It was 2021, or,
Ruth: wow. We waited,
we waited way long. we kept thinking any minute, we're back
on tour. Like any minute.
Aaron: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, Here we go.
Mike: I grew up hearing
Aaron: the saying,
Mike: being globally, act locally, and it never clicked
Aaron: recent years. I'm like, oh, this is
Ruth: what it means. Yeah. it's like,
Aaron: you
Ruth: you get into the whole, like butterfly
Aaron: its wings, and it resonates.
And it ripples out. You know, it's, It's that, you know, you work in your circle of influence, which has like a
Ruth: Venn diagram neighbor circle influence,
Aaron: which has, you know, talk about the links in a
Ruth: chain
Aaron: folk music. I mean,
Ruth: yeah.
Aaron: is a representation of folk life
Ruth: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: life.
Mike: Yes. We're into actual analog chains and not the digital ones.
Michaela: Yeah, exactly.
Ruth: I know we're. time, [00:50:00] we have to wrap one thing that I think of often is Eric Ward is a really great he's a southern poverty law fellow and a kind of leading voice on like, expert of white nationalism. And I got to do some work with him when he was the director of Western State Center, a organization in Oregon that promotes inclusive democracy and, fights anti-black racism and antisemitism.
Michaela: And, And he had all these cohorts with folk musicians and he talked about The gift of the artist is that artists have the ability to imagine a new future. So communicating that through songs is the role that we can play. Not every artist wants to, not every musician wants to, but for those who are called to it, that a great possibility.
And he talked a lot about how impacting social change that they would find in their studies. That the kind of regional, local, smaller artists they believed, had more cultural impact than a massively huge audience, sharing something on their [00:51:00] platform. But those
Ruth: artists that
Michaela: have person to person relationships with the people who enjoy their music can actually impact great change.
And I, think of that often when I can get pulled into. The career and business messages of am I successful enough? Am I doing enough because I have a small fan base. And go back to that of rooting in your value system versus the value system that's imposed on us from capitalism.
Ruth: Yeah. I always have said because my parents are musicians that a niche group of people know. Until Ken Burns civil War series where my dad's tune was the main theme of that PBS documentary, they weren't really a household name. And even now, I wouldn't say, you know,
certain PBS household name, but the where I'm going with this is just like people growing up I don't think understood just the life of a working musician, what that is.
people think if you're a musician, either you make it or you fail. [00:52:00] Like those are the
only two options that people have ever heard of.
For some reason, I'm like, okay, what if you were a florist? Like you
might do well, you're not gonna be like, oh, I've never heard of you. I'm sorry.
Like, no. It's like,
okay, great. Here's my card. I do flowers. Now you've heard of me. Like, why do you have to feel shitty that this is the first time you're meeting or hearing?
I've
had this conversation so many times. I'm like, it's cool. Yeah, you can do well, you can do terribly. There's like a whole spectrum in there, it's not just, making it or failing. There's a lot in between. and in any other line of work you wouldn't expect. Such wild, huge successes just to feel good about yourself. Like
Michaela: Yeah,
Ruth: can like support yourself and your small family and do well and like pay your band or your couple employees in your flower shop or whatever it is, and like do a thing
that is appreciated by the community and get good reviews on Yelp and [00:53:00] people tell their friends about you, like that's great.
That should be
enough.
Yeah. And then you have really good years and you have sort of down years and then you have everything else, Yeah. It's
real.
Aaron: it is. Yeah.
Ruth: We're out here. We still exist. Oh my God.
Michaela: yeah, yeah,
Ruth: yeah.
Michaela: why we like to have these conversations to show that there's not one way, and a lot of times that idea. Can impact our emotional and
Ruth: More
Michaela: health way more
Ruth: than
Michaela: be.
Ruth: Yeah. Wasn't it Daniel Quinn who said There's more than one way to live? That's right. That's one of Mike's favorite authors in a
quote that hits my head every once in a while. Again,
more than one way to live.
Aaron: Absolutely. Is
Ruth: on on ways
Aaron: to Live, it kind of ties into
Ruth: into how we like to
wrap up all these conversations,
Aaron: and that's by asking for you guys to
Ruth: share something that
Aaron: somebody has told you along the way that
Ruth: resonates
Aaron: inspiration, a North Star or
Ruth: or,
Aaron: conversely, if you want, you can [00:54:00] share something that maybe you would tell, like younger you that was first hopping in the van and trying to make this work.
Mike: I think about that once in a while. Like What I would impart to. You know, A group of high school kids if I was asked to speak in front of them or something. And I think it's really important as cliche as it might sound, to follow your dreams and to follow your bliss because the road does rise up to meet you in very unexpected ways.
I think it's
also important to remember that the thing that you imagine yourself doing, it might not actually be that way in reality, but as long as you're on the road to what makes you happy to spend as much of your time pursuing that ideal as possible, only good things can come in its wake.
Ruth: absolutely.
I like that. I think another thing that Mike has said a lot in response to this kind of a thing that just pops into my head is that your friends. Are the key too.
Mike: Oh, that's another Utah Phillips line.
Ruth: Well, when you go and play some house concerts or stay at your friend's house or whatever, like, especially as a [00:55:00] musician getting started, you go to the town where you have friends, you play the towns where you know people just build off of that.
There are towns where the friends no longer live there, but now we have fans there. But
it was originally, cause my friend lived in that town that we played there the first time and then, you know. it's a reciprocal thing. You know, when you go on tour and you stay with friends or you, thrive off them spreading the word in towns and then you do that when they come to your town, they stay in your house and you get to feed them and you get to tell everybody to go to their show and, it feels great.
Mike: Build your tour around your friends Yeah,
Michaela: Yeah, for sure. Oh, I
Mike: Or your podcast,
Michaela: Yeah.
Ruth: where can we stay Yeah,
Michaela: those places. Yeah.
Ruth: I'm just sitting You put the two together and it's like
nail
Aaron: head in the most simple way. Do what you know. Go where you know
Mike: do what you love. with the people you like.
Aaron: with the people you like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mike: Woo.
Michaela: For sure. Yeah.
Aaron: man. Well guys, thank you for taking this [00:56:00] afternoon
sit with us and chat with us. Yeah.
Michaela: That flew by.
Ruth: really does. Yeah. It's an honor you guys. Thank you
Mike: for including us on your show.
Alright guys take care. Bye-Bye.