The War and Treaty are a Grammy nominated duo who have released 6 records and EPs, starting out with independent releases before moving on to Rounder and now Mercury/Universal Nashville. They are the first black duo to be nominated for duo of the year at both the CMA's and the ACM's, where they've also performed, as well as performing and/or collaborating with the likes of Zach Bryan, Dierks Bentley, Brothers Osborne, Jason Isbell, John Legend, and Chris Stapleton. We talk with them about the importance of letting your own art move you, knowing your place in the history that you are making currently, being intentional in all things art and life, giving yourself the grace permission to come undone, and a whole lot more.
The War and Treaty are a Grammy nominated duo who have released 6 records and EPs, starting out with independent releases before moving on to Rounder and now Mercury/Universal Nashville. They are the first black duo to be nominated for duo of the year at both the CMA's and the ACM's, where they've also performed, as well as performing and/or collaborating with the likes of Zach Bryan, Dierks Bentley, Brothers Osborne, Jason Isbell, John Legend, and Chris Stapleton.
We talk with them about the importance of letting your own art move you, knowing your place in the history that you are making currently, starting their own management company - and even signing other artists, giving yourself the grace permission to come undone, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Michaela: And I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we're on episode 94. It is the first new conversation of 2025 and this week we're featuring our time with The War and Treaty.
Aaron: The War and Treaty are Michael and Tanya. They are a marriedcouple.
They were nominated for the Grammy for Best New Artist.
It was self produced, self released their debut record after that before signing with Rounder Records and now Universal Nashville.
Michaela: They've also been nominated for CMA Awards, ACM Awards, they're the first black duo to be nominated for Duo of the Year for ACMs and CMAs. They have performed Or collaborated with people like Zach Bryan, [00:01:00] Dierks Bentley, Brothers Osborne, Jason Isbell, John Legend, Chris Stapleton, just to name a few.
Aaron: Yeah, it's quite the roster in, what, eight short years here? of releasing music. But on that, we come out swinging on this one. And One thing that really resonated with me personally was like being intentional in everything that you do in both your art in your business in your life and in that being grounded in your why?
Michaela: Yeah, as well as owning and honoring your place in the history you are creating rather than Thinking that you are stuck on this path from the history that has come before you which also leads to a big conversation about When you don't see yourself fitting in somewhere instead of trying to continually You Fit a square peg in a round hole, creating your own business, creating your own management company as they have recognizing that maybe they don't fit in.
This harkens back to our conversation with Brandy Clark from last season about it's okay to not fit in because you stand out and really emphasizing that.
Aaron: As always, there are topics in this conversation [00:02:00] that have come from suggestions or direct questions from our Patreons. That's because they get advanced notice of who our guests are going to be, and they can submit questions comments, anything like that.
As well as there's a kind of varying, rotating, growing, evolving list of other things we offer over there, all under the guise of kind of going deeper into what we talk about on this show. So if that intrigues you, there is a link below to our Patreon in the show notes.
Michaela: And if you are a visual person, this conversation, as well as all of our past conversations are on our YouTube page. So go and check that out.
Aaron: without further ado, here's our conversation with Michael in Tanya, better known as the Warren Treaty.
Michael: How are y'all?
Michaela: we're,
good. Are you guys here in Nashville?
Tanya: right outside Nashville in
Michaela: Oh, great. Oh,
cool. Okay.
thank you guys so much for, spending this hour with us and being willing to chat. I always like to reiterate when we're meeting somebody for the first time and when we're going through publicists, what the premise of this podcast is just to make sure that it was fully explained to you. That we're not trying to like [00:03:00] promote anything that we're really trying to talk to artists about what life really is like to build a lifelong career all the time and the work that you do offstage to take care of yourselves, take care of your creativity, stay inspired
Aaron: stay sane when we navigate like the highs and the lows I spent years on the road, As a side man, and I'm a producer.
We're in my studio in our backyard, and Mikayla's a singer songwriter. So, probably 80% of our audience are also musicians, musicians. Musicians and artists.
So we like to say, it's like from our
community, for our community, we're kind of like, we have a strong ethos of as the tide
rises, so do all the ships.
So we're just trying to like, you know, things that you guys have found that have allowed you guys to stay creative when your entire livelihood is based on
your art, all of a sudden,
And just
Things that work for you, maybe they'll resonate with other people too.
Tanya: Awesome. Well, Michael's doing the rock eyebrows.
Michaela: I
Michael: I'm trying to get my left, right coordination better for my piano playing. So
Aaron: Oh yeah, I can't, I can't,
I [00:04:00] can't,
do that. left doesn't
work for me very well.
Michael: either. That's why doing the switchy roots, just to start retraining my brain.
Michaela: Wait,
Aaron: is there a correlation between your,
hand agility
and your eyebrows?
Michael: on your body that goes left, right, they're all connected. left hand doesn't work as great as your right. It's not just cause you're not ambidextrous or anything. It's just. the things, so they all work together. it's
Aaron: That makes total sense. Yeah. I never thought of
it for eyebrows. I think
limbs for sure, but
Michael: the eyebrows, they're closest to the brain. Right.
Aaron: No wrong
Michael: you
Aaron: Mm hmm. Mm
Michael: faster.
Michaela: hmm.
Well,
I can't do either
Michael: takes, if you can and get all your focus and attention on these things here, loosening up, then everything else with the body flows. And that's how singing works. Like a lot of people don't understand breathing controls everything. And you start by [00:05:00] inhaling, getting all that air all the way from the head to the feet and all that stuff and going through your body and in your body works together.
Michaela: I feel like I should know about the eyebrow stuff. My mom had a stroke a few years ago and lost her right side and it's been fascinating to watch her recovery and doing all sorts of things that. the, Western medical recovery stuff does not really include so a lot of breathing.
I recommended she do
voice lessons, which was really helping for a while. But
I'm going to tell her about the eyebrows. I think she'll have
fun with that one. She'll be into that.
Michael: to try. Tell her to try because there's something strange about left, right. You know, and it's taking a different energy and a different Then just doing this
Michaela: Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you for that.
Tanya: Thank you for sharing about your mom as well.
Michaela: I
share non stop, so
Michael: you all been speaking to alexa on our publicist team?
Michaela: yes.
Michael: just make sure that I get alexa to send y'all the bill for this advice. Um
Aaron: Okay,
[00:06:00] perfect. We appreciate that.
Tanya: do to stay saying he's a doctor part time
Aaron: a great side hustle.
Tanya: it
Michael: will be a hustle because I'll be in jail pretty soon.
Michaela: Well,
Where are you guys today in life? it seems like you guys are perpetually always working and the last several years have been explosive from the outside looking in so can you share a little bit about where life is right now for you and where it feels creatively and career
wise?
Tanya: really, I think right now we are, kind of just settled. this will be our fourth record. we've, you know, put out the first EP that we did in, We lived in michigan and that kind of was just like we're throwing it out It's something we want to do.
recorded it in our bass player's basement And it was just organic and it felt really really good. And so, put it out was received Really well, you know, with the fan base that we were growing in Michigan. And [00:07:00] then we moved to Nashville and of course, Nashville has its own world of creatives and how they do things and everything.
So we linked up with Buddy Miller and an incredible one of our dearest friends And through the, the help of Don was, who is
famous producer, everything ranger and put out label president, label president. And no
Michaela: Mhm. Mhm.
Tanya: And we put out, Healing Tide. Then from there, I'm giving you all this because it, it's gonna, it's gonna go somewhere. I promise you.
Michaela: Yeah
yeah.
Aaron: We're with you.
Tanya: we did, uh, Heartstown, which Michael produced and we kind of worked out the kinks with, him as a producer which in fact, I don't think we really looked at it when we did the first EP as him producing the record, but he did produce the first EP. we just didn't look at it that way because coming into it with industry labels.
We just did a great record with some musicians in, Michigan and we loved it. And so we got into, Nashville. We did, Hillentide and then Hearthstown, which Michael produced. And Hearthstown was a great effort. I think it was, [00:08:00] us stepping out and trying different things and just seeing, you know, where it would kind of land.
Michael: Effort.
Tanya: Yeah, it was great. Yeah.
Aaron: Uh
huh. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Mm.
Tanya: you did amazing. Let me just say that. He was great.
Michael: It's
a great album. not our fault that the label decided to release it during a pandemic when no one wanted to be happy. Yeah,
Tanya: yeah, yeah. And so
Aaron: Ha ha ha
ha. Heard.
Tanya: the pandemic, which was Hearthstone. as fate would have it in the war and treaty way, we ended up, at universal,
Michaela: Mm hmm.
Tanya: And, this is where we are now. And we have our, second project. the first project we did was lover's game, which was, I believe it was 2023. And now another one that we're putting out called plus one. And I say all that to say is because I think that as you journey through as an artist you don't really realize that you're, Finding your way through all of this. And so you try different things and you try different ways of doing things, and then you just wake up one morning and you say, this is what we do this is who we are and this is how we do it.
where we are as a couple is that we, [00:09:00] bring our gospel side, we bring our soul side, we bring the country influences that we have. We bring our Baptist roots, Michael Seven Day Adventist roots to everything that we do. we're unapologetic about it, you know?
Michaela: Mm hmm.
Tanya: that where we are as a couple, in our music, in our business is we're unapologetic about who we are and what we do and how we do it.
And it's very intentional, know, where we are in our lives. So everything we do is intentional, whether it's our disagreements. if we have an argument, we shake hands and we say, we're going to argue. This is intentional. It's not going to be good,
Michaela: Yeah.
Tanya: it's intentional. And I think that
Michael: not going to be good.
It's going to be great. It's going
Tanya: to be great because.
Michael: Because we're not fighting, we're arguing.
Tanya: Yeah.
Michaela: Mm hmm. ha ha
ha.
ha.
Michael: bucks there. Um, just
Tanya: he charges for all advice. So ask me if you want to know, you know, I'm
Aaron: All right,
Tanya: of charge.
Aaron: heard,
heard love the intentionality of that. as I work with a lot of artists and work a lot of [00:10:00] records, the one thing that really carries weight through all the changes in the industry and all of that is,
integrity
in your art and in your recording and shelf life.
You know, When something is true to yourself and your unique voice. It's gonna last. You can listen to it 30 years from now and it'll sound fresh and it'll sound real because you weren't trying to put on a costume and be something that was right then. You're just, being your true sense of yourself.
I definitely hear that. And not only in, the records that you guys make under your own name, but when you are guests with other people, I can hear it in your voices and
in how you guys show up there as well.
Tanya: Thank you. and, and I don't owe you anything for
Aaron: No, no, no, no, no,
No.
Tanya: but
Aaron: I'm trying
to start a barter system here with Michael. I'll give a little bit, he'll give a little bit back.
Michaela: Deal.
Tanya: get free studio time. Part of that
Michaela: Deal.
Michael: I appreciate you saying all that though. It, means a lot for us to hear that.
Aaron: Yeah, of course. Thank you.
Michaela: on your journey like of all the different records, were there any times that you guys maybe interpersonally or even individually feel like, pulled to try and [00:11:00] adapt or change to like on the path to like achieving, especially as the stakes get higher as you've gotten bigger deals and more eyes on you.
Has there been an effort to be like, wait, we need to stay rooted in what we know? Or is that kind of just always been in you guys? Hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm
Michael: I've been frustrated and I've, decided to no longer be frustrated in trying to be what I think they want versus being what I love to be, which is us. because people say things like,
Tanya: that's cool. That's good.
Michael: That's awesome. But this is a business. And in the business, you got to sell records, but I'm learning record sales. It's got nothing to do with the art nowadays, ticket sales to a show. I mean, we live in a time where, and I'm going to say this, racism, division, divisive behaviors, it's [00:12:00] finding its way in everyday living It's not as blatant as you would think. It has found its way to uniquely and creatively impact or influence what you do. That's for all of us. it's found its way. And, when you see it, it can cause you to, alter you you let it. just as this morning, I'm just like, you know what? I'm removing all of the tape. I'm removing all the chains, all the boundaries, all the borders. I'm removing, all the definitions and just going back to it's me and Tanya.
Tanya: I would have to agree. I think that you know, you're always tempted and that's with anything That's with being a woman that's with being short being tall being black being white being hispanic being mixed Whatever your Thing is, you know, whatever it is, I think that, you know, society has found a way, as Michael says, to uniquely try to make us at one time and during the campaign, it was women against [00:13:00] men, you know, this person against that person or black against white, or, capitalist just right in the middle. Like, look, I don't care. I just want. To make money. So I think that is always going to be something,
Michaela: Mm hmm.
Tanya: said, and I totally agree with him, the frustration comes you don't just put your foot down, you're just rooted. And that's with anything. I'm a woman, I'm in country music, I'm black.
This is who I am. This is how I show up. That's it. and you show up that way and whatever you're going to attract, You'll attract and whatever you don't attract, you're going to get frustrated because you're not attracting it. And you have to ask yourself why, so as you said, know, you sign a deal with a major, then you do come up with what Michael said. know, is this going to be playing on radio? Is it going to be received by a broader audience? I all those things, every artist, indie artists are going through it right now, you know, I'm reading
Michaela: Mm hmm.
Tanya: Oh my God, I just need an indie distribution system. That's going to love what I do.
And how do I get my music out now that Universal's bought CD baby, you know,
Michaela: Mm
Tanya: many different things that all of [00:14:00] us are stressing about in different ways and It's so hard sometimes to put your eye on racism when you're trying to figure out as an indie artist How you're going to get your stuff heard or to put your eyes on being a woman politics when you're trying to figure out how you're going to feed your family, you know So I think we're in an era and a time more than ever where we have to be empathetic And our attention span has to be on so many things at the same time that Life can bog you down and it can cause you to be, depressed and to feel what you're doing isn't working if you're not in tune with your why and why you do it you know, Aaron Michaela, why you have a studio in your home and what do you make music for and how are you making music. And then there are, Other areas we like to call it mailbox money, where you are writing a song because it's going to go to some pop act and it's going to run up the charts, but that's intentional too,
again, it goes back to that word being intentional and knowing that if you sign to a [00:15:00] major, what's your, why,
Aaron: absolutely. I try to do that with myself all the time. Especially now, not be on the road. I started playing gigs and traveling when I was
13 years old, you know, having my dad drive me to gigs and stuff. So that was like what I wanted to do. I wanted to play drums with everybody and travel.
And then I realized as time went on that liked being in the studio and you know, exercising my creativity in that way. And so sticking to my why as it has changed has really kept me going, but I noticed it. almost like, my why is the water at the bottom of a well. And if I'm constantly tapping that Y, eventually it's going to start to run dry a little bit.
Are there tools or things that you guys do to keep that well
full?
Michael: Stop.
sometimes like in this, you'll see me close my eyes like this, learn how to shut everything off and focus in on what a person is saying and take it in and absorbing it. Then to get in you and valuing it. That's the only way you can value it. being touched by your own art, letting your art refill you. I think that we, [00:16:00] tend to not want to do that because might feel self centered or something like that, but it doesn't touch you, You can't expect for it to fill up somebody else, and i've learned also to give my empty well to tanya and let her
Michaela: Hmm. Hmm. Mm hmm. Hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Yeah. Mm hmm.
hmm. Mm
Tanya: agree
with michael for me. It's I pray, you know I'll go for a walk. I'll work out I do different things. I'll call. One of my girlfriends or my sister and complain,
Michaela: hmm.
Tanya: for not about me, not about my, but you know, I'll
Michaela: Never.
Tanya: it. And I think again, it's about having space where you can release,
Michaela: Uh
huh. Uh huh. Uh huh.
Tanya: and then you take that top off, everything's going to spew out at the wrong time. It could be an interview, you know, and you're just like, you want to put it back in your mouth, but you can't. So you have to know yourself and learning. How much you can take and how much you can't, when you have to stop, when you have to just pause, when it's time to go work out, when it's not, you know, it's, all a [00:17:00] balancing act of the mental and the physical and the spiritual all the time. You know, it's a constant juggling act.
Michael: you something else. I have developed this, FTS moment, and I've given myself fully over to those moments where it's like I'll wake up and I'll realize man, I got to do the dishes. I got to do the fold. I got to do the laundry. I had to clean the bathroom. I got to fix my bed.
I got to do all these things. then I look and I have my F T S moment Aaron and Michaela, because y'all asked, I want to tell you what it means. Fuck that shit
Michaela: I love it. That's what I was thinking. That's what I was
thinking. Uh huh. Uh huh.
Aaron: Uh Uh huh. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Michael: like, I'm about to go hard and sing this song that's difficult. And then I go, fuck that shit. Hey bro, turn that microphone up as loud as you can. Cause I'm about to whisper this motherfucker. They don't even know. I have had to give [00:18:00] myself grace to become undone. Grace to say I'm over this, moment. And then when it's all over, when I've had my FTS wake up again, I'm ready.
Tanya: Yeah,
Michaela: You said, I have to give myself grace to
come undone. I like that a lot.
I mean, we, talk a lot. So we've had 90 some, we've
done this for two years. And
thank you. And we did it because going through the pandemic, we just started noticing this disconnect of like a lot of our musician community, everybody struggling and feeling unfulfilled, even if they're seemingly doing well the anxiety, all of that stuff.
But in the 90 some conversations we've had, a lot of what we talk about is, how so much is out of our control. And so how do we focus as artists and people and what is within our control? And after 90 some conversations of a very diverse range of people, I can't help but [00:19:00] notice the different demographics of artists of, how many other things are out of our control and the topics that come up in these conversations.
and I'm very careful. Aaron's a very self aware, conscious. white man but, it is like every conversation we have with, an artist who is an artist of color or just not white that race always is a topic that comes up. Absolutely. Women always is a topic of conversation.
Non binary, queer, always is a topic of conversation. Mothers, even versus fathers in a lot of ways. It's way more of a conversation. if you guys feel comfortable, I'd love to hear because Especially being a black couple that is operating in the country music realm, what you have found helpful to stay grounded in who you guys are, and combating that kind of stuff.
If you're even remotely aware of the country music scene, I think you know there's a lot [00:20:00] hateful rhetoric out there and exclusive behavior and gatekeeping. So I'm, curious, like how
you guys kind of ground each other
Michael: in that.
you know, McKayla, it goes back to the top of that conversation, like the things that we are aware of, the stuff that we know, It's racist, like the rhetoric and all that, the things that we know we know it because we've been dealing with it for of years.
Michael: So, it's just like, okay, moving on. that is not the thing. The thing that eats a person up is when they aren't truthful with how they really want to respond.
I said something maybe three years ago and one of the audience members jumped up guy and got angry at me, you know, and he's like, I'm upset with that. was pissed. when we see these situations, white people have to stop hearing the, issues of the black race or any race through ears and eyes of guilt.
Michaela: Mm hmm.
Michael: when you do it through ears [00:21:00] and eyes of guilt, you become defensive. tend to want to find the loopholes. You're actively listening to find out what doesn't apply to you. instead of listening to wait for the moment where you can put your arms around someone that's different, not even say I'm sorry, but just to say, I hear you. Right now, can we hug what can I do for you? now you have suspended the guilt and you've put the responsibility on taking care of each other in your court. Now I said, black people, what we have to do is stop asking for justice when the truth is we want revenge. Because if you are honest with the revenge part and you can really start dealing with Because the truth is we don't ever feel that, America could understand until their Children are swinging from the trees. and that's, Like, justice, justice, justice. But in our hearts, it's like revenge, [00:22:00] revenge, revenge, because we lump everyone up. And so. what I would say to all of this that me and Tonya are actively doing is this actively we're interested in history and it's not the history that has taken place. It's the history we're going to create,
Michaela: Hmm.
Michael: look at us, pick this picture of this vision up right now and carry it all the way back to 1940. 1930, 1900s, if you want to, and then you'll see how we are making our own history because
Michaela: hmm.
Michael: our children's children can go and look back at this we don't go and study the 1600s to get some information on today. Like we go back as about 19, we might go a little bit into the 18, but. You know what I'm saying? So I think that we have an opportunity to make our own stories, make our own history. It's not white people. It's not black people.
It's, Aaron and Michaela and Michael and Tanya. And now you start naming people because [00:23:00] when you name them now, you feel responsible. You feel a sense of in the way of those are my people.
Michaela: Mm
Michael: We belong to one another and I will protect and defend them and their honor at all costs. That's the cure And this also helps you sift through. Not everybody is for everybody.
Michaela: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm
Michael: who are not for me, I have no conversation for meaning. don't put my negativity on them. don't down them. I don't talk about them. I don't dismiss, I don't do anything. I choose to spend my energy and my time and uplifting and edify and reaffirming and confirming my love for Aaron and Michaela.
Tanya: That's how we navigate, you know, Michael just explained it. very eloquently you know, everybody has their thing, but our thing is love. and, you know, someone said to us the interview, we just felt like you guys were kind of uppity, you know, kind of, very poised. I don't see [00:24:00] anything wrong with that.
I mean, you have artists that feel great being called rule being feel great being called redneck feel great being called ghetto. We feel great being called people who want to unite and lovers, you know? And I think that, um, Once you define again, you're intentional about your why, you know, that history of our country is what this country is, it's all about history.
So none of us can run away from the fact that I'm sure if we look down the lines, somebody was a slave and somebody was a slave owner. If we, you know, are very truthful, but you can't change that. you know, like what Michael said, We're looking at 40 years from now, us being on your show probably would have never happened in this way,
Michaela: hmm.
Tanya: look at us now, at us, look at all
Michaela: Yeah.
Michael: and I don't like to say, the history of the past is all of our history. don't like to say that because, it is not. My great grandfather has a history of raping people in his family. That ain't my history.
Michaela: Mhm.
Michaela: Mhm.
Michael: that curse. I reject that [00:25:00] mantle. That ain't got nothing to do with Michael Trotter Jr. In fact, I come against that.
Michaela: Mhm.
Michael: out and I say that was wrong. And I move on. again, the thing about what we're doing is are writing our own stories,
Michaela: Mhm.
Michael: and just making sure that we're telling the story from our angles we don't feel the weight and the responsibility to have to uphold something that even born,
Michaela: Mhm. Yeah, that, yeah, that goes back to what you said of, you know, white people not listening through eyes and ears of guilt, that you feel this just And instead of really trying to listen to someone's experience, you go to a place of wait, wait, wait, no, how do I separate myself? And that example is, impactful for everyone that we aren't who Came before us, that we have the ability to change patterns, to change, ancestral tendencies, all of that stuff.
that's a seed [00:26:00] of
hope for our futures.
Michael: is. And just to clarify the revenge part, we tend to fool ourselves if we think it isn't in there somewhere. And
Michaela: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm
Michael: To do is you want to identify it remember uh, my cousin Antoine being killed early in his And I wanted to find them and Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. And I remember telling my mom, I want to
Tanya: kill him.
Michael: And my mother, she was crying. She said, I understand. I know what you're saying. She said, but then what the person who they love is going to want to come and do that to you. And then now I got to go do that to them. And then it just keeps ping ponging. And we're creating a very difficult world to thrive in.
And she said, but rather this. Prayful, and make sure that your disagreements lead to resolution. She gave me some things that caused me to pause and to go, okay, let me breathe a little bit and let go of that pain
I don't know what to do with it. So I [00:27:00] want revenge because I think that that's going to do it, but it won't.
And so for our people, you know, you, You look at it like, Revenge on the person that did it, and then they say, you know, you want revenge on all white people because you can't get to that person. And you look at white people and you're looking at them different and you don't trust them anymore and you finally realize, man that's, not person.
That's Aaron and Michaela. You know them.
that's not y'all's story. That's not even y'all's history.
Michaela: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm White people did this and black people did that and Jamaicans and Asians. we've got to get out of, Clustering things.
Michael: And
The greatest thing created was a cluster. Fuck. We got to stop that. We got to start and remain personable with one another, get into
Michaela: Mm-hmm
Michael: intentionally meet somebody who doesn't talk like you don't look like you didn't act like you don't walk like you. They didn't come up in the same neighborhood as you and investigate. And see whether or not y'all can walk together. You ain't gotta walk like me. You might, Aaron [00:28:00] might be skipping when we walk. I'm looking like he crazy, but hey, if we go in the same direction, you can skip, crawl, whatever he's gonna do. But I think those are, key moments for our humanity and the human experience.
Aaron: There's just so much gold and what both of you have shared. Things that resonate with me are, you know, really seeing other people and honoring their experience and their paradigm, no matter if it's for you or not. And, relinquishing this maybe it's out of fear or discomfort or whatever it is that this desire, whether it's conscious or subconscious to change them and change their approach, change what they're doing, change how they're doing that, and just accept it and be okay with letting it go.
If it's not for you, if it's not in your circle, and then being able to sit and hold your own experience, your own actions, and see that in the light of every second we are creating history. Every choice I make is going to ripple forwards and backwards, and holding that paradigm is a really powerful [00:29:00] outlook, I think.
Michaela: It's a lot of work, though. It's a lot of like emotional conscious work because it's such typical human behavior to classify and then like, try and navigate the world in this more simplified version of like, okay well, That person hurt me Okay, the markers of that person are their skin color this thing.
Okay, so then I'm gonna I'm gonnaprotect myself So when I see another person that reminds me of that person, I remember What happened? And that's, how so many like stereotypes and divisions based on all these different things develop and I think in some ways it is like evolutionary self protection and That's why it is so much work to do what Michael was saying and be like wait
Tanya: And the muscle memory is something else too. The mind is a very tricky thing it's like working out, you're eventually going to become defined and chiseled because you're working that muscle. So you have a choice. You need to [00:30:00] work that muscle negatively or positively and whatever you get up every day working towards is what
Michaela: Mm
Tanya: You know what I mean? And said this before the new year I have my friends and my husband and my sister all holding me accountable for judgment, not being a living in a judgment zone because we have a tendency to judge.
You see something in your first response, especially as women and Michaela, you could probably attest to this. You look at something like, Oh, her hair looks great. Or, Oh, I don't like those earrings. Oh, that dress is terrible. Instead of taking it in, looking at this person and your first thought being What you find attractive about that person, working that muscle first before you go into the, and we don't look at it as negative.
We look at it as opinion. We give it little names that make us feel good about the things about ourselves that we really do need to change, you
Michaela: hmm Mm hmm Mm hmm Mm hmm Mm hmm
Tanya: racism. Someone's larger, someone's fat or skinny, whatever. We don't, Allow ourselves to take in their beauty or the beauty of a [00:31:00] situation first Before we judge it, you know our little puppy We had people a bunch of people in here yesterday his first reaction to that. He's going crazy So I take him out of his cage. I walk him around so he can get his sense of Who everybody is and he sifts them all out that lasts for about three minutes And then I take him back downstairs and this dog is like going crazy for 10 minutes straight and he's fine now because he was able to take in environment Make sure
Michaela: No, he's safe.
Tanya: You know make sure it was okay but I have to train him to do that and michael said, you know when you get him just touch his neck So that he's not barking like that because he's barking because he doesn't know,
Michael: let me give another perspective because there's a whole person there. It's not so much just by him protecting and coming in there and getting to know who they are. Hey, if they're talking to you, they should be talking to me too. Cause we're one, we're family. I want them to know I'm in here.
I want them to know that I'm a part of this, and that kind of thing. Which leads me to this. You said something, Michaela that, that I hear often. I've said it often. Tonya said it. [00:32:00] Aaron said it. It's hard work. It's hard work. It is. But have you ever noticed something right? you ever watched the civil rights movement, right? And notice when all of the people who are on the same team, when they get together, what happens? It don't look so hard. They get together. They sing and they're laughing. Sometimes they're joking. right before they're getting their heads bashed in. We haven't examined that part because John Lewis said, I was willing to take whatever pain I needed to take as long as I could look over and see my brother, see my sister, as long as we're together. Mass torture is hard to do. You got to isolate. The reason why you can't torture people in a mass way is because won't kill their hope. You won't kill their spirit. You won't break it. I'd be honest. I say, you won't break my soul. You won't break.There's a reason for that. It's because it's not just me you're talking about. So I think what we should practice more of is not trying to do it by ourselves, not [00:33:00] trying to do it from a. That's his point of being an individual, making sure that we are being inclusive in every step of the way. So before I even make a move, I'm like, Aaron, bro, I'm thinking like this today, what do you think? And Aaron's like, I don't think that's healthy for the movement. I don't think it's healthy for us. I don't think it's healthy for you. And now I'm feeling more like. I've got a friend. I've got a partner in this. I'm
Michaela: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Michael: To do this hard work by myself. And now the hard work starts. It's hard, but it's joyful. It's hard, but it's fulfilling, it's fulfilling first. Hard is the footnote and afterthought,
Michaela: yeah, a hundred percent. is that part of the motivation of centering music and creativity in your life as that's a vehicle?
Aaron: exactly what I was thinking, you know, especially with, the viewpoints that you guys have shared of. Mm hmm.Seeing your place in the broader fabric of time and culture and all of that.
Michael: Yeah. [00:34:00] Creativity and, and all those things work hand in hand with spirituality, but I think that what I've come to learn is that the guy wrapping the cables, the guy doing the lights, the guy there to get the water bottle or to pick up the towel or the usher to stand there to direct somebody where to sit or the guy in the studio who just hitting record, the guy behind the symbol behind the guitar. Everybody's one. Everybody is creating one thing purpose. Like people think, gotta find out what my purpose is. People don't understand that you're creating purpose. the thing we're finding out is we exist to create purpose. People don't get that. They're like, Oh, what the hell is he talking about?
I'm like, listen, a baby is existing, but. that baby grows, it creates its own purpose in every scenario. So I really feel that our art, and what we write about, what we sing about, what we choose to do and who we choose to do it with, is intentional. Intentionality is, important. We tend to be intentionally inclusive.
Tanya: And the baby is [00:35:00] Michael saying the baby actually gives, you know, Michaela, is this your first baby?
Michaela: Second, we have a three and a half year old.
Tanya: So you remember like, I remember having my son, my oldest son, he gave me another purpose. Even though I was in music, there was a different purpose that this child gave me so much so that I was like, I love music and music is great, but it's not the first thing I wake up. wanting to do all the time,
Michaela: Yep. this baby came. I'm like, wow, that's my purpose is different. I'm not waking up trying to figure out. How to make it. I'm waking up figuring out how to breastfeed this baby. You know,
Yeah.
Tanya: You know, That's your first thought is the safety of the baby.
And what daycare are you going to put him in? Are you going to, I mean,there's so many different things that happen when, like Michael said, when you see the person I remember we did New Orleans jazz festival one year and people we were with, they were giving out tickets to all these people and I was walking around and I said to myself, man, I wanted to.
If any of these workers have ever come to the New Orleans Jazz Fest, because it's so expensive, like these tickets [00:36:00] are money. so I went around the people who were picking up trash and different things like that. And I asked, one lady was like, I've worked here six years. I've never been able to afford have my family come. And for that day, The purpose was, wow, we are able to give these families an opportunity to do something they probably never would have been able to afford. So I believe again, in opening up yourself and being vulnerable and being self aware and being conscious of your purpose and being intentional of your purpose is understanding that we're all connected. And as Michael said, gave me a greater purpose. My purpose was there to perform, but the greater purpose is to know that long after we left this festival, the next day, this family would be able to experience something that they may have never been able to do.
Michaela: Yeah, that's beautiful.
Aaron: Yeah, that reminds me of this story of, I think it was like a journalist or something like that. It was in the sixties when NASA was trying to launch a rocket and put a man on the moon this journalist was, was on the NASA campus and he, [00:37:00] stops a janitor and he's talking to him and he's like, well, what do you do here? You know, You clean the halls. He no, sir. I helped put a man on the moon.
Tanya: Wow.
Michaela: You know, and it's
Aaron: like everybody's working together. Everybody's part of the fabric to reach this end point.
Tanya: that.
Michaela: That, and also to connect it we have a Patreon and we ask,we let our patrons know beforehand who is going to be our guest, and then they can submit questions.
And one of them asked specifically for you guys, which, that kind of purposeful intention with your art.
Aaron: And inclusivity.
Michaela: And inclusivity, How balancing that with also being business minded knowing you guys have to survive and build a business how from the outside looking and creating your own management company How that has Informed your ability to really lead your business and how that then has impacted your ability to really Be creative in the way that you want
Tanya: I think it's for me, I go into. I try to, I'm not going to say always do, but when you go into a situation and you look at the scope of what [00:38:00] it is, you look around and you read the room and you're doing business and you look at how other people do business and then you say to yourself, there's nothing that looks like us. in a way, in a mainstream way. I'm not saying that there have never been other country music duos that are black because we were finding out that there has been, but in us making the decision to open up the management company, it was, do you spend the next five years fussing and fighting and trying to figure out how to, a square into a whole or do you just create your own thing and If the mistakes that happen if things are happening, it's on your shoulders because again you're being intentional.
You're doing the music. You're doing the videos. You have the concept You're the creator behind all of it you can now these things within your own team and you put people around you that think Like you that will understand where you're trying to go grow into you want to see for your own career.
Because again, as artists, we are. I own CEOs, if the owner of McDonald's was [00:39:00] just into French fries, then they wouldn't be as large as they are. They're into real estate. And
Michaela: Mm hmm.
Tanya: understood that from the beginning that I am a real estate developer. This is what I do and fries and burgers are the second part of what I do.
That's it. That's probably why we see McDonald's everywhere. So I think that, with the war treaty, it's, how do you, yeah, the war treaty.I know talking about burgers and fries, it's realizing that, we're different and not to say we're better or we're worse or we're not mainstream or we aren't, we're different. And when you're different, you have to do things different. so starting a management company for us was. We have to do it in a different way. And we also wanted to leave a legacy, you know, not just of money, but a legacy of love. If there are other people that don't necessarily have to look like us, but there are other couples that want to do music, country music a different way, they can look
Michaela: Yeah.
Tanya: and say, okay,
or music
Michael: period. Yeah. You know, we, we're [00:40:00] finding that, we have an opportunity
Tanya: and the opportunity is to show that you don't have to be pigeon hailed to one thing. And, our management company has been very successful. We're actually looking at our first artists. And we're very excited about that. and it's been successful because we've taken tidbits from the past,
Michaela: Mm hmm. who have managed us, we've had some beautiful, wonderful, brilliant managers, and we've implemented that plus what we've seen the lack was, and
Mm hmm. able to fill in those spaces. So, that becomes easy because. You're not just leaning to your own brain, but you build a team of people who are brilliant, who have things to say about it. So thanks for asking us about that.
We also always like to talk about financial diversity and entrepreneurial skills because a lot of times we feel like younger artists and we dealt with this was like, no, you have to only be focused on the art. And in this continually changing landscape it's really smart to diversify and help [00:41:00] others, but also build your portfolio and your business opportunities.
Michael: And you have to um, definitely do both. you want to make sure that, whatever you're building is reflective of the audience and the audience isn't one way. So you want to make sure that you have all kinds of people.
with you.
Aaron: Build a bigger tent.
Tanya: Yeah. It's very important for artists to see themselves consistently as CEOs, and be very mindful of where you're going to put your money.
I mean, Spending, 000 to make a record might not be the thing to do in this climate. You may
Michaela: Mm hmm.
Tanya: record for maybe three, maybe. Yeah.
Michaela: Ha ha ha ha ha! taking 70, 000 of it and putting it into marketing, which is The difference maker right now, you know, I had
Mm hmm.
Tanya: their label to tell
Michaela: Ha ha ha ha ha! episode.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. we have dreams of like doing serious, deep dive, spreadsheet budget or I have dreams of that. Yeah.
Tanya: you got a dream of doing that. [00:42:00] Michael's like, no way.
Michaela: Aaron's actually way more like he's way better at all of that, type a he's a Virgo.
Aaron: Well, for me, for me, it's that I need to have itorganized. I need to have it spelled out so that I have the room to be creative when I need to be.
If it's all floating around, it's like a bullet ricocheting around an empty room and it's just going to come out somewhere that isn't going to be great. So if I can just pen it in and be like, it's here. I can actually forget about it and turn that off for a little bit.
Tanya: the way I have to, function, I have to see it. I have to be able to know at the end of the month, okay, this is what it was. And this is where we can play around a little bit in this area. and that allows me to be creative. I realized when I don't have in front of me or understanding what that's going to be, then I can't be creative.
It's it's, hard.
Aaron: Yeah. And even a step further for myself is especially this time of year. End of year, beginning of the year, I'll look back on the past year and I take like meticulous things Because I work in the studio and I also still play on record So, you know, i'm a session musician and a producer [00:43:00] and I write for tv and I do all these different things and I You know, I have that all tracked on how much time I spent every minute
Michaela: that he works down
Aaron: trackedBecause for me, especially having a family and trying to support a family I can see what works and what doesn't and in knowing that and seeing the data and the history it allowsme to actually have more freedom to take chances and to take risks.
In a calculated way.
Michael: is very, very true.
Yeah. If we could real quick, we'd like to end with just a question. either something that somebody told you along the way that is like really resonated with you and really helped you in this journey, or something that now that you would have told,your younger self when you're first getting into like this business, either one.
I would've told myself to have fun.
Tanya: Mm. love that.
Yeah.
Michaela: Tanya.
Tanya: I would've told myself to trust myself. Trust
Aaron: Yeah.
Tanya: Love both of those. Run with it. Amazing. Yeah. Well, Thank you guys so much.
Aaron: Thank
you so much. guys so much. so
Michaela: Take care. [00:44:00]