Valerie June is a Grammy-nominated singer/songwriter whose music has been praised by Pitchfork, Rolling Stone, The New Yorker, NPR, and Bob Dylan himself (who is a self-proclaimed fan). She has performed with John Prine, Norah Jones, Booker T. Jones, Robert Plant, Meshell Ndegeocello, Dave Matthews, Angelique Kidjo, Willie Nelson, Brandi Carlile, and Elvis Costello, written books of poetry and on art, and is a certified yoga and mindfulness instructor. We talk to Valerie about intention setting and the law of attraction, learning to live with chronic illness, testing different approaches and your creative limits, manifesting, rituals and routines to get ready to be present for people, and a whole lot more.
Valerie June is a Grammy-nominated singer/songwriter whose music has been praised by Pitchfork, Rolling Stone, The New Yorker, NPR, and Bob Dylan himself (who is a self-proclaimed fan). She has performed with John Prine, Norah Jones, Booker T. Jones, Robert Plant, Meshell Ndegeocello, Dave Matthews, Angelique Kidjo, Willie Nelson, Brandi Carlile, and Elvis Costello, written books of poetry and on art, and is a certified yoga and mindfulness instructor. We talk to Valerie about intention setting and the law of attraction, learning to live with chronic illness, testing different approaches and your creative limits, manifesting, rituals and routines to get ready to be present for people, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. We are on episode 102, which feels crazy, and this week we're featuring our conversation with Valerie June.
Aaron: Yeah, Valerie June is a singer, songwriter, author, poet, mindfulness teacher.
she says she has no qualms in just calling herself a creative, which. As you'll see, she is all of that fully. She is Grammy nominated Americana Awards, nominated and even Bob Dylan is a proclaimed fan of hers.
Michaela: She is a published author of three books. She's written songs from Mavis Staples, blind Boys of Alabama. She's shared the stage with John Prine, Nora Jones, Booker T, angel [00:01:00] Kidjo, Willie Nelson, Elvis Costello, and many, many other legends.
Aaron: Yeah, it goes deep and like I said, she's very quick to say I am a creative in general, and she just kind of embodies that energy and that openness and that abundance of being in joy, being in color, her creativity lead the way.
Michaela: Yeah, and we talk about how to stay grounded in that and having to continually and intentionally connect with your why, why I am writing songs, why I am sharing those songs, why I'm wanting to pursue this career. And the purity of intention behind that, of wanting to leave something behind and being well aware of the possibility of failure and trusting in the outcome even when failure may not be the thing to be avoided.
Aaron: It's one of those great conversations where we kind of tread between the very tangible practical speak and like the more ethereal energetic talk pretty fluidly back and forth. It's really enjoyable as [00:02:00] you hear me gush at the end. It's very inspiring to me and very motivating. But as with all of these conversations, there are topics here that we touch on that come from questions.
Directly from our Patreon subscribers it's because they get advanced notice of our guests and they can submit questions beforehand on top of a bunch of other ever evolving ever developing offerings over there. So if that sounds intriguing to you, there's a link below in the show notes.
Michaela: And if you are a visual person, this and all of our past conversations are also available on YouTube.
Aaron: Yeah. So without further ado, here is our conversation with Valerie June.
Michaela: since the origination of this podcast, you've kind of been a dream guest and I've been waiting for you to have a publicist on duty so I could reach out and try and get you, because all of your work centers, not just your music, but your many channels of creativity and not just your own, but communicating to others the importance that you feel creativity plays in our humanity and our life. is that a [00:03:00] correct portrayal as someone who's just viewing you from the outside?
Valerie: Yeah, don't make me cry. Sensitive today. So yeah, that's where it is.
Michaela: That's beautiful. you know, and just for our listeners background, you are a. Singer and songwriter and banjo player, but you're also an educator, an arts education advocate. You've published books about creativity. You're a poet. You've published children's books, like Your Resume is Immense. Was that always your.
goal or ethos from the beginning not to mention you're a mindfulness teacher and a yoga teacher, or has that progressed and evolved for you in recent years or in later years? Or is that kind of where you were at from the very beginning?
Valerie: It's evolved over time for sure. I was just going through a box of things, memories, and had a bunch of old journals and on top was it was from 2007. [00:04:00] And on top was just kinda like this lit like plan. And it was like things I wanted to do creatively from festivals.
I wanted to play to making soap, to making hear gels and things and tees and touring in what cities do I want to tour? What things like that. What will my home look like? All of these things. And I was just looking at it and I was like, oh my God. I've done so much of this stuff and I was thinking about how, as a creative. I'm in this place where I want my life to be my greatest project,
Michaela: Mm.
Valerie: my life to be my greatest work of art, and how can I sculpt this gorgeous painting with this time that I have, so that. If all my lives were put on a shelf and it was just like book after book, this life, that life, then you'd open this one and it'd just be like so colorful with so
Aaron: So. [00:05:00]
Valerie: adventures and so many different mediums used to paint this life.
And so I don't feel like there's a limit to the creative. Energy that if you allow it to flow, it just, it's there and what we're supposed to do. It might not always be for the world, but that's what we're supposed to be doing, whether it's cooking or decorating the house or making the bed.
All of that is our creative act.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. it reminds me of a pair of guests we have. One being Joe Henry the producer and songwriter. And he said something similar and he attributed it to Tom Waits, but I've heard it from a lot of people, is, you know, how you do one thing is how you do everything. Um. And the other one being Elizabeth Cook who said the same thing.
She's like, my life is art. Art is, life is art. How I get dressed
Michaela: to go to the post office, like just embodying it. Which I think is really a beautiful way, and you, said something about like maybe it's not always for the world and sometimes it's just for yourself. Are you ever like conscious about that?
I'm always [00:06:00] curious about the relationship that creative people have. between what we make. Then what we wanna share and the act of sharing and what is kept for ourselves or maybe that we want to share, but it doesn't find a way to share it. Do you have any feelings about that? The kind of like separation of which creative works are meant to be shared with, others, and what are kind of kept for yourself?
Valerie: Like you just said, you know, some things you create just don't make it in the world. So they kind of are the guides, A lot of the things that I saw in the box today, I was like, woo. I'm glad nobody ever saw this, that painting I made, you
Michaela: You. Mm-hmm.
Valerie: Bad. A series of them,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: you know, like To get through those. I'm not gonna throw 'em away. I'm gonna put some white cans yet just so over and start over and, it's like the art tells me what to do. It's my guide and I'm just [00:07:00] here saying, okay, if that's what you want, I'll give it a try. I can't promise you success,
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: Has that always been motivator for you? Like in the sense of just letting your creativity guide you? Or is that something that has developed as, creativity has become more of part of your livelihood.
Valerie: I've always let it guide me.
Aaron: Hmm.
Valerie: That's the way I create and that's where the magic is for me. That's what I like thrive on and it's what feels my heart and I just can't do it any other way because when I feel that connection with the other world.
Through art. I don't think I could live on earth without that connection. I think that's what keeps me like able to be here
Michaela: Hmm. be alive, especially at this time, is that I have those other worlds that I can visit, that restore me, that heal me, that keep me like feeling. Okay. You can make it [00:08:00] through another moment.
Valerie: You can do another day. You
Aaron: Mm.
Valerie: A year. You could do it 80 years. Come on, you got this.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: Give We're gonna give you poems. We're gonna give you art. We're gonna give you all kinds of cool people to share and create with the color. palette is never gonna be longing for. Anything, it's all available.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: Possible in that world, and I wanna have a world like that.
Aaron: I do too. Can I join you there?
Valerie: well That little one is definitely going to show
Aaron: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Valerie: they already know we're being reminded.
Michaela: Absolutely that, that's a hundred percent true. I was as you were talking, I was thinking about like the spiritual aspect of creativity of, you know, whatever you wanna call it for each of us. If you feel connected to it, like the faith and I read with your record pushing against a stone that.
You talked about, the kind of connection with your. Ancestors and the people that came before you of like working a hard day and then like sitting on [00:09:00] the porch and playing music and that kind of spiritual grounding. And we, we also have a three and a half year old child and watching her.
Continually, the older she gets. Also, it's like this really beautiful like, okay, we wanna preserve this. As she's closest to the womb, she's so pure and she's so artistic and it reminds us oh, we're all artistic and it's something that as we grow up and navigate this society, we're told no.
That's like for kids, or That's a
Aaron: hobby.
Michaela: Yeah, it's a hobby or only for the super talented, and it's amazing to watch a child just so freely, like she paints nonstop and there's never any inhibition. And so I, think about it in this kind of like connection to our inner spiritual selves and also to others and our, our lineage.
absolutely. That is what it is for me. And I get so excited to think about it [00:10:00] because like, I don't think it's just connecting with our ancestors and, the inner child and, magic. I think it's connecting to even other realms of existence.
Mm-hmm.
Valerie: so vast where it connects to, it's just like it keeps unfolding.
and sometimes I think about it in other ways like, okay, when I get old and I'm like sitting in the nursing home, am I gonna be like bored outta my mind? But then I'm like, not if I could be creative. So there, so it can expand within a life, but then it also expands Just kinda like as you're moving through.
The people that come in, they also bring their ancestors and their stories. So it expands that way. Like it doesn't just expand in the ether and in the invisible. It expands here. And, I like having all of those different connections and how creativity is like the pathway that opened that door for me to the spiritual realms that connect all of us with [00:11:00] each other, but also with nature and with everything, you know,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: keeps going.
Aaron: I love your viewpoint as like. as you pick at it more, as you take further steps, more and more becomes illuminated and it becomes this kind of like feedback of like opening up and welcoming in and providing more and revealing more as you go.
Valerie: Yeah, I also think sometimes, okay. AI is like doing so much for us and it's totally taken over all of our jobs, what are we gonna do? We're gonna be like your 3-year-old, ah, every day painting, drawing, what y'all doing over there? Okay, let's go throw some paint on the wall. Do this list we're gonna be playing,
Aaron: Yeah.
Valerie: the world we can create and inspire others to create because we're creatives.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: Can remind them that they're creatives too,
Michaela: Yeah,
Valerie: We could just be playing all the time. All of us,
Aaron: absolutely. There's such a stark contrast that I've seen between this kind of worldview [00:12:00] approach, life philosophy, whatever you want to say about it of being a creative and existing in a, state of being in play versus like this various stereotypical American dream viewpoint on life, where it's go to school, get a job, get a promotion.
Get another promotion. Get a promotion. Save, save, Save. Retire you know, and have four to 10 years to live at the end. Yeah. Right. and go on a cruise. Yeah. Which like, yeah. So, You know what I see in that is two things. I see, a lot of, People that have had financial and capitalistic success inevitably turn to art. Whether they're in their fifties and they start taking a painting class or their sixties and they, start painting or take guitar lessons or, want to start a band or people whose ancestors have had capitalistic success that then have to worry about that day-to-day thing.
They always turn to making art
Michaela: trust fund kits.
Aaron: Yeah. Whether it's making, music or making films or whatever it is, they always turn to art, and I'm just wondering how are [00:13:00] you able to exist? Like Hold this trust in living in this perpetual life of play and creativity and just trust that it'll all work out.
Michaela: That your needs will be met through it.
Aaron: Yeah.
you
know.
Valerie: Don't take it for granted for sure. Like This is a lucky life to be able to be,
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Wake up and work on songs all day or. What are you gonna do today? I'm just gonna write some poems,
Valerie: or I'm gonna read some poems taken years to get to this place, first off, and it took. Having part of the brain that you just described of being a capitalist and planning and taking care of whatever, might come up. And boy, do I wish that in my journals, I didn't have numbers written alongside the dreams,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: I do.
It's been a balance and it's been a juggle and I had to say to myself, okay. Well, I'm not going to spend anything. This gonna be a can of beans [00:14:00] tonight. Tomorrow night. Tomorrow night. Tomorrow night. Tomorrow night. Because I want longevity as a creative, I have to make a choice. And that's gonna be me choosing to okay, I made a hundred dollars on a gig. I can't spend it because something might happen.
And my body taught me that.
When I got sick, I was 27 and I got so sick that I couldn't work, and I worked as a cleaning lady and I also did gigs and I worked at a cafe and herb shop. I had a lot of jobs.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: but that's what it took to eat.
To bills,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: Then from each little bit I would save a little bit so I could make a record one day when I got sick. I was glad that I saved that little bit to make a record because I needed the money to live I couldn't work. I physically. Could not do anything my body just told me and hitting a point in my life where I had years like that, where [00:15:00] all I could do was go sit in a corner somewhere at some restaurant and play for 30 minutes or an hour.
I couldn't stand, I couldn't go to the bathroom. I had to crawl to the bathroom. Because I was that weak and sick, and once I got my strength, then I said, okay, well I can't go back to doing all those jobs. I don't have that much strength. I got a little strength. I could hardly, I was walking upstairs, hardly get up the stairs.
So my first days in New York, I was like going up the subway steps slower than old folks. They was like passing me.
And there was years like that, and so what that told me was like, okay, I have spent seven years saving to make this record, putting a little bit of each a hundred dollars here, $50 there back, and I don't know if I'm ever gonna be healthy. So if I ever get my hands on anything else, then I'm gonna have to do the same thing. Every single time I get something, I'm gonna have to like be thinking about what if it goes, you know, what if I'm not able to take care [00:16:00] of myself? Because as a creative, I have no backup plan.
Michaela: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Valerie: my whole family was like, look at her.
She clean and toilet. She's just this, that to go to college. She needs to give up them dreams, you know? and I'm like, okay, well I'm not asking you for anything, so yeah, I'm gonna work my 15 jobs. But then when I worked so hard that I broke my body, I still didn't really ask for anything, but I did move back in with my mom and dad for a little bit, and I was grateful that they let me do that because I've experienced homeless periods in my life I just.
Knew that I couldn't do that and be sick I learned that, is not like just be a creative and don't have a job or whatever. It's, yeah. Have that job and be creative to me.
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: like, Okay, and you're a human being and you have needs, and your body might not always be able, so you need to be able to take care of yourself when you're old.
So think about [00:17:00] that too.
Aaron: Know? Mm-hmm.
Valerie: Like all of this is real. and you can do it, it can be done, there are artists who have families and lives and health issues and all kinds of things, and they're still making their art,
Can be done now, will it be easy?
Hell no. It ain't gonna be easy.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. You can do it. Yep.
Valerie: you do, that's what you can do.
Michaela: I really appreciate you sharing all that stuff I think I spent years as a young person thinking, oh, artists are just like naturally called to make art and just trust that everything's gonna be okay and somehow they're taken care of. And my brain didn't work like that. So I always for a long time questioned well, maybe I'm not a true artist because I'm really stressed about also making enough money to pay rent and make sure I can eat food and whatever.
And I think these conversations are important because. like you said, balancing in your brain like, okay, I need to make sure I'm taken care of and healthy and [00:18:00] my needs are met. I also have to like, organize and plan and budget, and then I also have to have the space to let myself play and make things.
So that we don't all think, why am I the only one struggling with bouncing all this stuff? Why am I not waking up just being like, oh, I'm gonna paint all day, and that's all I'm gonna think about when the reality is most artists are thinking, all right, I'm gonna paint for a couple of hours and then I need to like look at my accounting for this tour that's coming up.
And like today, artists are also business people, so it's, Really helpful, I think, to hear your journey and especially when you have something like illness that prohibits you from just having the absolute freedom to work your hardest. And I think the lessons that those times can give us probably feed our art even more.
Valerie: Can you speak on that at all about how that kind of fed any of your inspiration in [00:19:00] your work with your songs, with your painting, with your urge to share with others to motivate and educate and advocate for others. When I was sitting in the emergency room. I was like feeling so bad that I was like, I might be dying. when I saw the nurse, she said, if you didn't get here, you would be dead because you're about to slip into a diabetic coma. You are like leaving. And I could feel myself leaving. Like I could see myself on the other side of the room, like there were a lot of mes and.
Seeing double and all this stuff. And as I sat there, I was like, but I didn't make a record yet.
Michaela: Mm.
Valerie: I didn't learn how to play this, that, or the other. I didn't share my music, I didn't share anything of my art. All I did was work in hopes of one day do it.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: And you know, I played some shows and stuff, but like to do like actually have [00:20:00] something to leave.
I listen to stuff like today. I found Hobart Smith. I found, Ella Fitzgerald, I found like Robert Belfor, all of these older musicians that have gone and I'm so glad they left there for me. I was sitting there and I was like, I'm not leaving nothing. Because I have not done anything.
All I've done is work and I, you know, am not going to die right now because I know exactly what I'm gonna do if you give me this life. And so at 27. they say is a set of return. I got that diagnosis and I just said, okay, if I get my strength back, then I'm gonna not be stopped. I'm gonna travel the world.
I'm gonna see what I wanna see. I'm gonna eat what I wanna eat. I mean, I gotta be healthy and conscious, but going to. Paint. If I wanna paint, I'm gonna draw. If I wanna draw. And I just knew that this time that I have is totally a gift, [00:21:00]
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: it was like I was given a choice, do you wanna stay or do you wanna go? And if you're gonna stay, then what are you gonna do? And I was like, okay, well I know what to do. All those doubts that I had before about like, can I do this? Is this really something I can do? Is this a job for real? Getting sick, cleared that up because if my body would've just given me a slap on the hand, I probably would've gone back to work.
But my body didn't do that. My body totally shut down. Couldn't I get up? Could not do this. I
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: Like. No, this wasn't happening. And so because that happened, it made me stop everything. And in that sense it forced me to value my creativity, to be like, you mean I could been making money doing this and doing my living through this way all these years, but I didn't trust it.
I didn't believe it was
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: I just was like so doubtful and scared,
Aaron: Mm.
Valerie: You forced me to [00:22:00] have this time of three years where I have to trust it because I don't have anything else and nothing else is coming, but I can't do anything.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: And so I love having this. of like A sad thing turned to something that was a direction of strong and good and, give me this vision of, it's okay to believe in your craft and to trust your craft you'll make what you need to make The doors will open.
And I read all of those hippie books every single new age when leap in the net will appear and all of that. And I was like, y'all sure. I'm not sure about that, but I got to try it out. And yes, it will
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: it'll appear,
Aaron: Yeah.
Valerie: you gotta do the work, but it will appear, you know, as long as you're moving toward it, it is going to kind of move toward you.
Michaela: do you have to work to maintain that belief? Like does the doubt ever creep back in at different times of like maybe a [00:23:00] disappointment or a time of, quiet with not a lot going on? Like, has that really like stayed with you as a core belief since then?
Valerie: The core belief is that the doubt doesn't go away.
Valerie: You're learning how to like navigate what is just okay, this is real. Yeah, I could fall, but I am so not afraid because I've fallen before and it's okay. So even that's not a fall. understanding failure and being okay with the fact that, what does it mean to you defining that and being like, okay.
Because I failed so much, I failed all the time. And then in this life of comparison,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: on and on, the failures
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Oh yeah.
Valerie: doubt and the what ifs. And you can try to be ready and you should, but at the end of the day, it is just like the leap and the trust is Mixed in with the doubt and the failure, and it's just kinda like, okay, but you know [00:24:00] what? I did it.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. just did it
Mm-hmm.
Valerie: and it's so fun. And that's
Aaron: That's it. Right? Like Yeah, You're saying that, you know, the failures are part of it. just reminds me of you saying you were going through that box earlier and you found some of these paintings that you're glad nobody saw. And the thing that I, that was going through my mind, as you were saying is that, is you wouldn't be painting the paintings that you paint now, if you didn't paint those paintings then,
Valerie: Exactly.
Aaron: you know, we're sitting in my studio right now, I have made some clunky sounds in here. they're like Looney tunes, you know, like, and not in the cool way, I found some really cool sounds in doing that, you know what I mean?
Giving myself the room and the leeway to be like, this could suck And it might, and that's okay. You know, Gives me the freedom to find things that don't suck and that do feel like me and do open up to all of these new. Areas and avenues and inspirations that I probably wouldn't have seen if I just was like, oh no, stay on the path that I know.
There's a rock there and there's a rock there. I'm gonna stay on that path. You miss out [00:25:00] on, so much. And as you were saying, like coming from your sickness and having really no other options be like, no, I have to do this. I have to create this breadth of work that I can leave behind.
I need to do this. It's almost like this, purity of intention kind of thing, you know, which isn't being ignorant of the pitfalls or the difficulty, but like staring at that and still, going anyway and being like, no, I am doing this. I can do it. I'm not going to do anything else.
I can't do anything else. I think, to talk about those kind of like hippie books, new age, whatever woo, woo way of approaching it. I think like there really is something to that. I think it's a flow of energy, whether it's universal energy or energy within yourself. Whether it's getting into like cognitive behavioral therapy and in, having that intention, that purity of intention or that purity of vision of like, no, this is what I'm doing.
Then your brain is trained to. See the doors that are open and those options that are along the way. you know, at the end of last year, my car finally died I was looking for new cars and the more I, you know, I looked at a car and I realized whatever car I was like, [00:26:00] interested in that hour or that day, I'd see it all over the place.
I'm like, everybody has that car. And I'd be looking at another car. I'm like, wait, everybody has that car? And so my brain was showing me all of the places that that car exists. And that can apply to our drive and our desires and our, intents too, too.
If we're like, I want to make this record. I'm going to make my creativity my life. If you believe that. With your intention and your whole in this pure way, your brain is gonna find all of the doors that lead to that.
Valerie: Absolutely it will and. They call it the law of attraction, I guess,
Aaron: Yeah, exactly.
Michaela: go ahead, sorry.
Mm-hmm.
Valerie: That's real. you know, it seems to be as real as anything else.
Aaron: Yeah, if you lived it, if you experienced it, if it happened, I mean it that's as real as it can be.
Michaela: Yeah. And I love the idea of like. using your life to understand way to create things. just using your life as kind of like this test or experiment where it's like, what [00:27:00] is possible? If it came into my mind, what is possible to create? What limits are real, what boundaries are real, and what is.
Valerie: Not, just like using your life as a testing, like, how far can I expand and grow and play and experiment. And then you look at your life and your life you all of that. The things that it took and the strength and the virtues that it took to create certain moments co-create 'em with friends and family or weather, whatever it might be. I like to, think of my life that way versus think of my life as so solid.
Michaela: Yeah. can you talk about identity as an artist? especially as an artist who has a lot of different mediums, like how they inform. Each other or, you know, we use like words to kind of identify ourselves of I'm a musician or I'm a, professional musician or whatever it is. Do you have that concept for [00:28:00] yourself or do you feel very fluid?
And are just called to, you know, if one day you feel like writing songs, you feel like writing songs, or do you feel like writing poetry or painting is there any sense of like how you attach what you do to your sense of self,
Valerie: I claim all of them, and I've had to work to get there in my own mind like, in my lifetime. I have terrible rhythm, and I can tell you yes, I'm a songwriter because I am a songwriter. I've been writing songs since I was a kid,
but they were just voices and I didn't know how to play anything.
I was on the chilling squad lot, falling all over myself, and they were like, you are a white girl. You, You cannot, you got no rhythm. The white girls have no rhythm than I did. And they will tell you that if you find any of them. And I kind of think that I started playing an instrument. Because I [00:29:00] wanted to get some rhythm.
I wanted to understand like, what I clip my hands on the beat? So, I just, now since the pandemic, we've called myself a musician. So all of the,
Michaela: Oh,
Valerie: things that you can be. Are things that I had to work mentally to say to myself, yes, I am now worthy to be whatever that is.
Michaela: interesting.
I have to earn that
Valerie: day in my mind because I'm like, yeah, it is. Like he was saying about those Looney tins.
Notes
Aaron: Yeah.
Valerie: tones, it was like, oh man, I might have had a full on Looney Tunes 3, 4, 5 years on the banjo or on the guitar. And I'm like, no, I'm not there. I'm not there. I'm not a musician. I'm gonna let somebody else do that. Now I'm banging around on it and I can sing, write songs, but so now the pandemic, I spent a lot of times with the instruments.
I never had that time, [00:30:00] you know? so I think about it sometimes I'm like, people that I knew growing up who played instruments, their parents either got 'em in. or they were in the band or they didn't have parents that made 'em work all day.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: able to like get in the garage or in their room and play their instrument.
We worked, my parents kept us pretty much busy all the time and I didn't have the time to sit and learn anything. And
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: started playing, I had to. Figure out how I was eating. So I had to develop this thing I call 10 Minute Rule, which is in one of my books where it's like, okay, goal is that by the time I'm 80 that I can play like Elizabeth Cotton and Mississippi John Hurt and Skip James by the time I'm 80.
Because when I see pictures of them, they're old.
Michaela: Yeah.
Mm-hmm. me a long time, I'm not on that 27 bus that Jimi Hendrix and Janice and all them were on, I'm on that 80 bus. So [00:31:00] like, if it takes me a long time to earn that, then fine. You know, and that's part of it for me as a creative now, what I will call myself as a creative, because that's what I am,
Yeah.
Valerie: with cooking, with dancing, with poems, with songs, with
Aaron: hearing that you're on the ad bus just felt like a breath of fresh air to me. I could use that in my life. I'm like, if I can't do this in a month, like I don't have time. It's like this constant rush of like, I need to be able to do this. I need to be able to do like, it's just a breath of fresh air to hear like, no, by the time I'm 80 I'm gonna get there.
'cause like. mississippi John, her is a big influence on me too. And you're right, like every picture of him, he is old. Like he's about to fall out of his chair. He needs to be drinking That Maxwell Hell's Coffee. and it's just like, oh man. It just like it gives me this, feeling being like gentle with yourself. Like, I'll get there. And that life is just a constant process. It's one foot after the other. And keep learning, keep growing, keep expanding.
Michaela: It's also so interesting to hear you say that you didn't feel like you earned the right to really call yourself or feel like a musician until the pandemic, when at [00:32:00] that point you had already.
And correct me if I'm wrong, Ben, a Grammy nominated Americana award-winning musician. Right? And like by the outside world, you are deemed a successful musician. And I point that out only in like, it's so interesting to, kind of observe How we identify and our feelings towards ourself and like whether we let that prohibit us from doing the things we want of that kind of like do it anyway.
Even if you feel like maybe I'm not worthy yet, I'm gonna do it anyway and guess what? You doing it anyway was a really big gift to a lot of people in the world who love, the art that you gave them. If you had let your sense of well, I'm not worthy yet to do that, so maybe I shouldn't put it out in the world, a lot of people would be missing out on your incredible work.
Valerie: It was during the pandemic. I was in my room and I got a text I was nominated for a Grammy, and I was like, wow, like. and I've been nominated for Americana Awards, [00:33:00] but I've never won anything. You know, I'm
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: a little bit of a weirdo, so I don't know if I'm in those categories so much but to be nominated is to me such a treasure and I feel grateful for it and It's kind of like, I didn't go to college, and so when Bob Dylan said he was listening to my music, I just was like, dang, I feel like I got my doctorate's degree today.
Aaron: For real.
Mm-hmm.
Valerie: outside things of success well, you didn't win. Well, you didn't, go to college. Well, You didn't do this. Okay.
I'm gonna let you sit couch telling me that
Michaela: Yeah.
here,
Aaron: Yeah.
Valerie: do. not care. You
Michaela: Yeah.
Valerie: I love having that little voice 'cause it motivates me.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do it anyways. I'm particularly inspired by that because I'm someone who has always thought, oh, you have to do the steps. I grew up a military kid, so like, just very much you're supposed to do these things. I can't do that until I do this other [00:34:00] things.
And it's like, well, why, Just do it.
Valerie: Yeah, then why are you doing it? I thought about that today too, or this weekend I was just like, okay. I just wanna sit here for the next 30 minutes to an hour and just meditate on why I create
Michaela: Hmm.
Valerie: art and what is my why. I just always come back to like that connection with the inner realm and the way it takes me to these other portals and places, but also the way it lets me show up and be a joyful human.
In this dark
Michaela: Hmm. Hmm.
Valerie: if the world is about to fall apart and everything's going terrible and climate change and we're all gonna be up and dead and wars everywhere, then I. I wanna be The person who's creating this world for people and myself that is full of color, that's full of laughter, that's full of joy, that's full of believing that our last days are gonna be our [00:35:00] best days.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. I wanna be. And so that's what I wanna do with my art and that's my why really. At least it was this weekend. We'll see what my why is beyond. What's your why?
Aaron: my why is actually very similar. When I am able to distill it down to a sentence, it kind of aligns with I'm not a front person. I was on the road as a side man, as a drummer for people for. 15 years and now I work in my studio and I produce records and all that.
So I'm always kind of support staff, I make art in collaboration with other people. And so, I kind of always view my why as, helping people. Put art out in the world that helps people feel welcome and feel open.
wanna make the world a joyful, colorful, open vulnerable place, accepting place and help artists feel comfortable and open and free to make the art that is purely them. So that's my why. It brings me to, other realms. You know, gives me a sense of control in a sense, when there's not a lot of control [00:36:00] in the world being able to either by myself in here or in collaboration with other people, like pull these sounds in these songs out of the ether and make them something tangible that can be shared with people you know, was incredible.
Michaela: Yeah. my why I like Valerie that you said also. That's what your why was like right now and we'll see what it is tomorrow. 'cause I feel like that's such a true statement of like. it evolves and I think always checking in with ourselves is so helpful of what is my why right now and what is my why next week?
And I think my why has definitely evolved, especially in the past five years as my personal life has changed so much and I've become a mother and, I think my why used to be honestly trying to like give, but also I think seeking something if I'm like brutally honest with myself. I think it was trying to seek some validation in some ways.
And I've worked really hard in the last several years to center in the why being to make meaning of our [00:37:00] lives to provide, connection to others and an invitation to others to be vulnerable and try and make meaning and, see the worthiness of that. Something I always do before I go out to perform to make sure that I'm really centered in my why is I always say I'm going out to offer love to anyone who is willing and open to accepting it.
And that really shifted my mindset rather than getting nervous of, am I going to perform well? Are people going to like me? And I could do that, writing a song, if I have the intention of like, well, I'm writing a song, are people gonna like it? Do I release it? Instead being like, I'm writing this song to make meaning for myself and offer love and connection to anybody willing and open to it, has really shifted my brain and helped me.
Of quiet, that external anxiety that can come with, like you said, the age of comparison that just infiltrates all of us by social media and having so much access to what everyone's doing. [00:38:00] So that's kind of like a mantra that I have to go back to a lot
Valerie: Mm. I love that. I love that you do that before you go on stage, like as a regular setting of the intention and the tone for the performance, you know?
Michaela: I notice especially if I'm doing opening spots because you're going out there in front of an audience that might not know who you are at all. So there can be this layer of like, I hope I convince them. To buy my merch after, like I hope, they like what they're witnessing right now.
And I started to notice it was really distracting me from enjoying my time on stage. And I was like, if I'm gonna keep doing this, I need to enjoy this 'cause this is more nerve wracking. And I was like, why am I doing this? I feel sick to my stomach every time. And I was like, oh, if I shift this intention, it really helped that I wasn't.
Scanning the audience, being like, oh no, that person's looking at their phone. I guess they don't like me. which is such a real thing that can happen on stage. And to just be like, no, this is for [00:39:00] anybody who is open to it. I'm sending love. I'm not out here trying to impress, essentially.
Valerie: I am and I ain't.
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah, absolutely.
Michaela: Yeah. I'm curious 'cause you're now in like album promo time. Does that ever. Draw up any necessity to sit with your why even more you know, we talk to people all the time on this podcast of like the different phases of art, artistry of like the creation part of really writing and then the studio time and then the promotion time and like how much being in promotion can change how we feel about things.
If we're getting the press that we want, if we're getting, you know, all of that stuff. Do you find. If any of that come up for you, or has that changed over the years being several cycles in or?
Valerie: It hadn't much changed for me. There's still like a lot of need to sit every day and come back to center with myself because [00:40:00] everything that you just said as part of our job, balancing budgets of tours and planning. And what kind of press do we want? Calling that in from the universe, communicating what kind of people do we want to attract?
And, just, I'm happy that it connects with anyone, but I can also find people who it's a reciprocal connection with, and that's a really cool experience. Like I was. Going through things. I found some art and paintings that I have from fans. They're not of me, but they're of their work.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. just like, oh, I remember this person gave me this tiny home homemade pottery candle holder or whatever it might be that I get to learn about what they do.
Valerie: so getting into a record cycle opens up all of these other energies and. Other people in your world. And to me as a hermit, that's how I have community
I really don't [00:41:00] anywhere or do anything unless I'm doing a show or at a festival or something.
my friends are like turtles muskrats and blue, hers and people wearing. Funny, strange outfits when I'm in New York, or watching the world. So I really feel like when I have a record cycle, or if it's a book that I'm putting out that's like opening to the world and saying, okay, what kind of interesting people, what kind of cool adventures can we go on ready.
I'm ready to come out of my fairy closet
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Michaela: I love that. Yeah.
Aaron: Do you find that, uh. part of your career the, the being out, the people, being in community, all of that. Is that energizing or is that draining?
Valerie: it is a mixture. I have to prepare myself. be around people. And I do it by basically making the day kind of like a practice. It'll be a walk or doing yoga or mindfulness [00:42:00] meditation, and. Having my green teeth, then having my black teeth, then having my herbal teeth, then having my waters.
Then balancing, you know, the time of everything so that I can be ready to be present for people. otherwise I'm like, whoa, that was a lot of energy. I'm glad to see, but I'm anymore for tomorrow. So I have to
Aaron: Yeah.
Valerie: it and be like, okay, and what time of the day can I be the most present for the world and for others?
Is it gonna be 6:00 AM Probably not. So let me mind that and not be communicating before body is physically ready.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Valerie: You learning all of it these record cycles, you know, even if you're gonna do an interview with press, it's like, okay, when can I be Best self because I'm mean, in the morning
I wake up [00:43:00] like
Michaela: Not like, oh my God,
Aaron: Yeah.
Yeah. Well, we're, we're getting up the end of time here, but we like to kind of wrap up these conversations by asking either uh, that you would tell your younger self, you know, before you got into like the career, something you would tell yourself then, or something that somebody has told you along the way that has really kind of resonated and sticks with you.
Valerie: Hmm. Well, I've had so much good advice. Most recent one I had was from Carla Thomas. I was talking to her and somehow she said something about. Yeah, I noticed that you sing with your eyes closed a lot, and I was like, yeah, I find it very difficult sometimes to get notes my eyes are open.
And she was like well, that's a sign that you're a soul singer. I. She was like, you're connecting with the soul, and that that is a sign of it. And I was like well, if I got the fairy [00:44:00] godmother um, Carla Thomas telling me that, then I'm gonna listen. I'm gonna
Aaron: Yeah.
Michaela: Yeah.
Valerie: because I, even with genres, I have a hard time being like. Okay. Yeah. I'm a country singer. Yeah. I'm a bullies singer. Yeah. I'm a folk singer. Yeah. I'm a rock singer. But if Carla Thomas told me I'm a soul singer, then I can wear it. 'cause I would not wear it with Her out there, Mavis and Aretha doing so the Soul way. I would not wear that. Are you kidding? Shoot.
Aaron: yeah, And so then you can tell any, any performance out there who tells people like, open your eyes when you're on stage. Uhuh, I'm connecting to the soul. Mm-hmm. I like that.
Valerie: I do think I would love to go to a performance coach and, learn how to perform though.
Like you're playing the song, you're. Pride in the song. You're on the stage, you're like all the hats, the different things you have to master in order to just do one note
Michaela: Oh, yeah,
Aaron: yeah, yeah.
Michaela: [00:45:00] Yeah.
phases you like. so many different parts of yourself, and so, so extreme introversion of writing songs and like, you know, from your insides and then like recording and then extreme extroversion of like being on stage in front of lots of people and being on tour with people and it's wild what.
we wanted to have these conversations because we feel like it's such an interesting way to choose to live and that there's not one way to do it, and we other the more that we share.
Valerie: That's
Aaron: Yeah.
Valerie: I'm glad y'all are doing It
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. the time to, to sit with us afternoon and have this conversation.
Aaron: It's. Definitely inspired me. Yeah. And kind really energizing for me. So thank you for that.
Michaela: During a time. So this is on in the So this was really uh, Thank you.
Valerie: Thank you too. Thanks for making time.
Aaron: Thank you. See ya. [00:46:00]