Wilder Woods is the solo project of Bear Rinehart, the lead singer of multi-plantinum, Grammy-nominated, Billboard award winning, multiple Dove award-winning mega rock band NEEDTOBREATHE. We chat with Bear about how his prolific creative output forced his hand on starting Wilder Woods, juggling not only creating but performing with 2 drastically different projects, setting goals and intentions, knowing the path to those goals, internal perception of success and not only allowing things to unfold in their own time but enjoying them for what they are, and a whole lot more.
Wilder Woods is the solo project of Bear Rinehart, the lead singer of multi-plantinum, Grammy-nominated, Billboard award winning, multiple Dove award-winning mega rock band NEEDTOBREATHE. We chat with Bear about how his prolific creative output forced his hand on starting Wilder Woods, juggling not only creating but performing with 2 drastically different projects, setting goals and intentions, knowing the path to those goals, internal perception of success and not only allowing things to unfold in their own time but enjoying them for what they are, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 106, and this week we're featuring our conversation with Wilder Woods.
Aaron: Yeah, Wilder Woods. AKA Bear, Reinhardt. He is best known you could say as the lead singer for arena rock Band.
Need to breathe. They are Grammy nominated billboard, award-winning, multi-platinum selling Massive three e bus rock band. That bear started with his brother and started releasing records in 2001, and then he kind of realized that he was writing songs that he loved that didn't fit, need to breathe.
And so he started his solo project, Wilder Woods in 2019 releasing the first record on Atlantic, and now he's on record number three.
Michaela: [00:01:00] Yeah, and it was really interesting to talk to him. He is a prolific writer, prolific, so it makes sense that he needed to have a second outlet. He said he sometimes writes upwards of 150 songs per year.
So his frustration is sometimes, how do I get all of these songs out and share? So even two projects probably isn't enough, but there's not enough time in the day or year.
Aaron: Yeah, wild. on top of talking about his Abundance of output. We talked a lot about enjoying the process and the journey in your career, in your trajectory as an artist and enjoying that for what it is and for what is happening, not what you want it to be and what your expectations were.
'cause you might be missing out on some pretty amazing stuff.
Michaela: Yeah. We covered, being intentional about where you want your music to be presented. Especially coming from his perspective, having this arena rock band and more of a kind of singer songwriter project and how the setting, the stage, the venue all of those things are really thought through on his end as far as [00:02:00] like. what color the walls are of the venue and if there's parking for his audience. Amazing things to think about that I wish a lot more people thought about.
Aaron: Uh, As always, some of the topics that we touch on in this conversation come from suggestions from our Patreons. That's because they get advanced notice of our guests and they can submit questions we have, discussions on topics that we touch on in these conversations. We have an ever evolving, expanding, contracting, shifting, changing landscape over there, all with the idea of getting deeper into what we talk about here and furthering a community and hoping that a rising tide raises all ships.
If that sounds intriguing to you, there is a link below in our show notes.
Michaela: And if you are a visual person, this conversation and all previous conversations are also on our YouTube page. You can go visit that
Aaron: and I am definitely in newborn life and in need of a haircuts. If you need a good laugh, check out the YouTube.
Yeah, don't
Michaela: judge the bags under our eyes when we have a one month old baby.
Aaron: We're [00:03:00] doing our best here. So with that here's our conversation with Weiler Woods.
Nice to meet you. We're I'm McKayla and this is Erin.
Wilder: Nice to meet y'all.
Aaron: just to start off, I know you're in the midst of promoting a new record, but where are you today? Physically and also like creatively.
Wilder: Yeah. we're two weeks, I guess, into the Tour Wildwood tour. I've got three kids. So the, days off we're trying to do like every other weekend warrior kind of thing. So
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: you know, a 10 day split and then home for three. So I'm in the middle of home thing.
it's probably less creative in these gaps. I always feel like I've gotta catch up with the boys. They're all the oldest are playing baseball and all that stuff. So
Michaela: Mm.
Wilder: Have, I think, three practices to go to.
Michaela: Oh my gosh.
Wilder: so feel a little, this is the second day at home.
The first day
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: a, you know, like you're, trying to make it work and be dad and everything, but it's, you're kind of a wreck.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Wilder: but no good. I feel good. my wife [00:04:00] came out to the last three, which is always a huge thing for me.
Michaela: Nice.
Wilder: it's easy. She works full-time. She's a, nurse practitioner and does mental health
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Works with artists, actually a lot.
Michaela: Amazing.
Wilder: so it makes it tough for her to come out when I'm on these, so I feel like I mean, it's a total game changer for me to have her out, you know, every couple of weeks at least.
Michaela: yeah.
Wilder: yeah.
Aaron: A little point of grounding, a little point of home in like
real life
Michaela: that, that in between time too. Like when you're like, oh, it's a day off. But when you have kids, it's not a day off. Like you're, you're probably getting less rest than when you're on tour
like,
Wilder: Yeah, it's different. I mean, It's certainly different. I think my wife has, you know, we've been together over 20 years,
Aaron: mm-hmm.
Wilder: kind of
been through the whole,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: gamut of the thing. And I think our sort of on ramp, off ramp understanding and sort of expectations and all that are, just light years ahead of where they used to be.
Wilder: you're always sort of checking in, like how much, what kind of percentage are you at,
coming in, which is very helpful to me. 'cause I think both of us feel, it's, this is not an [00:05:00] overwhelming time for sure. But we have 'em all the time.
Michaela: Yeah.
Wilder: I think coming in off a tour like that, it's just like the expectations are high for you to kind of jump right in.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Got a 4-year-old so that they're up at whatever, five 30 ready to like
Michaela: Yep. Oh yeah.
Wilder: Um, so
Wilder: that's just, you know, the schedule flip and the whole thing. But no, we're feeling good right now.
Aaron: Nice.
Michaela: That's really helpful language of like checking in. What percentage are you at to kind of like, really negotiate and communicate, for both people, like the person who's been home as well as the person. Coming home for that reentry and like how much you can manage. I just remember in September I was on tour I had like a three week stretch and I had one day off and I was six months pregnant.
it was really important to me that I spend the day with our 3-year-old because I was feeling so guilty about being away.
I just remember being so exhausted and like taking her on a walk in the neighborhood with her tricycle, which of course she stopped wanting to ride. And then a well-intended neighbor gave us like a crate of cupcakes [00:06:00] and I'm just like, end up walking through the neighborhood with my daughter on my back, a tricycle in my arm and a cupcake in my other hand.
And I'm six months pregnant and I was like, this is not,
Wilder: It's too this is not restful.
Yeah.
Aaron: Gimme a load in. I'd rather
do that.
Wilder: Totally.
Aaron: Yeah. and also just, what percentage you're at, like setting the expectations,
you know what I mean? Because like, we're always, trying our best and sometimes, you
can be given it a hundred percent, but if you're only at 70% to begin with,
Wilder: I feel as we're talking about this, it's like I sound like we have these plans and things put together, which obviously you do, but just, things happen and it just gets outta whack and then, you know, it's overwhelming. But I think that of expectations is like a huge deal with us in terms of I mean we've, started probably four or five years ago doing goals together
Michaela: Mm. and so kind of talk out the year and the schedule and, spend a day going like, okay, what are we gonna do and what are we not gonna do?
Wilder: What's not on the priority list this year?
and I, I think that's helpful obviously to kind of have at least an [00:07:00] overview at the top to go back to and be like we said that this was gonna be tough, and so like, let's ease up on that. and she's great with. Being from the mental health side, I think she can check in with me and know where I'm at, what I'm capable of.
So that's super helpful. But it sounds like, you know, it's easy, but obviously isn't. last year was a too much year.
You know how it goes. Like you schedule these things like six months, eight months out, or whatever it is, and the manager catches you on a good day.
You know, It's like, what about, what do you think about this? You know, What do you think? And it's like, it's such a, minuscule detail to you at the time.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Don't realize you're actually physically gonna be there for those days or whatever it
Michaela: Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: just, it was one of those that caught me.
I think we did over a hundred shows and we did Europe in Canada and all that, and she was finishing school. She'd gone back to school for something. And it was just, chaos, you know, it
Michaela: Yeah.
Wilder: Not falling apart. Like we kinda all knew the chaos was coming, but just like, once you're in it, it's hard to manage.
Aaron: when we hit those situations, it's like, you know, we're in it and it's like, oh, this is real. And it's a struggle. And the only [00:08:00] way through it is just to keep going. You know, You can't backpedal 'cause then you're just gonna have to start again. So it's like, all right, here we are,
Grit your teeth and have at it.
We had Lori McKenna on
here and how she approaches those, you know, when her manager, whoever throws out something that's six or eight months away, she tries to envision okay, what if this is three days from now? Could I do this if it was three days from now?
And it's like,
Wilder: Smart.
Aaron: makes a lot of sense.
Wilder: Yeah.
Aaron: I don't, but.
Wilder: I know. It's so, it really is based on my mood when they call, you know, it's like,
Michaela: Yeah.
Wilder: which is so crazy to think it's like that, but I just, you catch yourself many times, be like, I cannot believe I said yes to this. Like,
Michaela: Yeah.
Wilder: one day off, you think you could fly to there?
And it's all that kind of stuff. The stuff that adds up.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: So, But I'm working on it. I'm working on it.
Michaela: Well, And especially when like even the things that would be like a good opportunity or a good experience that you're like, oh yeah, that sounds great. And then the reality sets in of like, that is great, but I also have to take a flight at this schedule I'm gonna be without sleep and I'm gonna be schlepping this.
And, you know, all of that [00:09:00] stuff that's hard to uh, process, especially when so many things in this business feel like well just hurry up and make a decision. Or like, you have to say yes or no soon. You can't like mul this over. But obviously having a family there's so much more to consider and then a partner to talk things through with.
But I also think even like creatively knowing that, okay, this is crazy right now and we don't have time for these things in life, but like maintaining our sanity by reminding ourselves and each other, like that will come back there will be times where, I'll be like itching to go on tour and nothing will be happening. Or there will be times where like, I have lots of time to write. I think of that, a lot in creativity of like, and I'm curious how that works for you of like seasons of writing or if you're always writing or you know, especially when you're just maxed out and there's no time, how that feels emotionally for you.
Wilder: I would like to think that I can write all the time. But the truth [00:10:00] is I don't and I think mainly on the road, like this first couple of weeks, getting a tour going, that's always, it takes up too much of the mind space to like really settle.
I like to sort of wander as a writer.
So I need a couple of hours to sort of dream and I kind of get lost in it. I know when I go into write I'm at my studio now and it's like,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: I work best in the morning, so I come out here 7, 7 30. Sometimes I'll take the kids to school and then come here, you
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: but I know that like I'm not gonna answer my phone for four or five, like at least that amount of time to kind of like actually have anything that I know if I like or to develop it enough to where you could finish it at some point.
I think I go in phases of that. I mean, It's not like when I'm tired from the road. That doesn't happen though. I would say like there's a restful thing about me being out here by myself, so I kind of use that in a way, it's like at the end of last year when we got done, I took a day or two off, but then I just started coming in here and I feel like there's something about me being in the process there's a joy to it to me that maybe some people like to work out or [00:11:00] whatever.
It's like to me there's like, if I just get in here and, and it's frustrating some days, but a lot of days I'm just like laughing out loud and like, you know, I'm being a kid in here.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Be a better. Parent in the afternoon, you know, husband, all that stuff. I can answer the management call much nicer, you know, all that stuff.
It's like, writing does feed it in a way for me, or at least it's, gotten to be like that. So yeah, I try not to just like anything, with writing, you're just trying to put pressure on it. I used to be much more like that. I played football in college.
I was very like type A driven sort of like, and some of that stuff would apply to this and it would always mess it up. So I feel like I have to get in that more childish thing, to like be in a good spot to do it. I don't know if that answers the question.
Aaron: Yeah. Fully.
Wilder: Of it kind of works like that.
And I write too much. That's more of the problem than the opposite. You know, I know
Michaela: Hmm.
Wilder: with some people and I've been around people that's, the way their process is. you know, it'll be 150 songs a year, probably, even if I'm just
writing by
Michaela: Wow.
Wilder: My frustration with art is [00:12:00] more that you can't get it all out
I don't have a place to put it. I'm enjoying it so much. Like, I wish there were avenues to do all those things. So, you know, I've already got two projects, so it's not like I can just be well, I think I'm gonna make a record just like, you know, whatever.
so that's more of my I don't know, constant frustration with the art part of it.
Aaron: having two projects, what comes first? Are you thinking of the project before you write, or does the song come and then you kind of
Wilder: I
Aaron: parse out where it, fits?
Wilder: I kind of do it in periods. Probably in cycles
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: not intentionally, but just naturally. you know, You turn a record in whatever it is now with vinyl and everything, four or five months before it comes out. And I feel like, okay, all these things, I've been funneling into this project and, you know, in the need to breathe thing, I'm always, it's a band that I'm sort of playing the songs to.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Almost like they're a and Mm-hmm.
yeah. Fully. know what I mean?
Wilder: So it's like, I'm, playing them stuff like, you know, we're having demo days where I just like, lock 'em in here and make 'em listen. we kind of go through that whole process once it gets picked, oh, these songs are, even if the record's not finished tracking wise, my mind just Switches to the other one.
[00:13:00] and I start thinking about it in terms of, and I've always written better when I think about albums instead of songs.
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Wilder: I think it just started that way where it's oh, it's a certain number of ballads and these kind, so
Michaela: Yep.
Wilder: a place to explore.
Like, I need more uptempo what could that look like? You
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Of helps me have a jumping off point. And occasionally, I mean, I think in both sides of the project, I'll write a song that at the end of the day I'll go, whoa, that turned into something that is probably for the other project.
but I don't really, I'm not driving it that way, but for some reason, if I'm in that mindset, it kinda lends itself to that project a little bit more.
Aaron: Yeah. hearing what you were saying there about having like the structure of an album in mind while you're writing or a project. And then also what you mentioned about coming from playing football, that being more alpha and trying to like force things. Like I grew up playing soccer and did all that, but I've always been like really structurally minded as well. And I've found that if I'm like really alpha and intentional about a framework, I can then let go be more [00:14:00] fluid and kind of playful in the creativity, you know what I mean? so it's be like, be tangible on like the schedule on the facts, on the, put an ink to paper on a, calendar kind of thing.
Really opens up the rest of the things, you know, because being a parent, it's like you have this time to be creative and you kind of gotta show up and, play and, you know, as You can.
Wilder: COVID was the craziest I. Time to. Learned like when I was creative
I just never had, paid attention to it even. we had been going for, I don't know, 15 years at that point, something like that, more.
It was just
Michaela: Mm
Wilder: I never had a time like, okay, I'm sitting down in the studio to write and I have nothing to write for. and honestly it turned into like my favorite. I loved that whole process.
I've gone back to the band, just put a song out that I wrote during that time that like was just sitting there.
Those kind of things I was sometimes days would be like, I'm just gonna write, you know, a dumb country song today
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilder: i, 'cause I hate those would it be cool if you
Michaela: you know what I mean? Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Wilder: it was such a great process, like what you learn about what you like don't all the, different kind of [00:15:00] musical things.
but I learned a little bit of that early morning thing was a real deal changer for me. when I go into writes, now I'm after two or three o'clock in the afternoon, like lyrics are not a thing. There might be an idea, but in terms of like actually, getting under the hood with a lyric, like, it would take me 10 times as long as opposed to that first like, spurt of caffeine and whatever it is, like in
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: for me, is like the moment.
And, And it is funny 'cause you, y'all know, in Nashville everybody starts to arrive at 11, you know,
with kids. Like a whole day has happened by the, that
Michaela: Yeah.
Wilder: you know,
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: like, I'm either gonna write this before I get there. Or we're gonna have to start a little earlier or
Michaela: Yep.
Wilder: really need that, prime window. So I feel like I learned that during the Covid thing has been super helpful to me.
and it frees me from that. There's like this nagging thing, like when I'm going to bed at night, you know, if I get the kids down or whatever. I used to have this thing of like, have I done enough today?
maybe I should go out there and write till three,
like
Michaela: Yep.
Wilder: you know, or whatever. You know what I mean? maybe LA really [00:16:00] knows what they're talking about. I don't know.
and I would do that some and just realize like, that's not effective at all.
I just didn't
Michaela: Yeah.
Wilder: sleep and now I'm a wreck.
I feel like I learned some of that during that time. Was forced to learn it.
Michaela: we've lived in Nashville for 10 years. We moved here from New York City and we both went to a jazz school and we weren't in the co-writing world. And so it was new to me when I first moved here. And I remember like going to a write and like spending all day, like hanging out writing and we'd go to lunch and then like in the afternoon we went to like a publisher party at Music Row.
And then we were like, let's grab some dinner and let's go write some more and like finally finish the song at like midnight. And I'm just like, that life is so far gone. Like
Wilder: totally.
Michaela: I'm like, we got like three hours until I have to go pick up my kid from school. And in a way I'm so glad that I had that experience and then, that experience will come back again when I'm older if I want it to.
these conversations and a lot of things I think about is always kind of like. How we create. in a way, I feel like having the structure is [00:17:00] helpful to be like, let's get down to business. But also knowing maybe it won't get finished and we do need to go home and have our dinner with our family and put the kids to bed, and then all of a sudden, like that line that you couldn't think of today comes to you while you're like brushing your teeth.
it's so, ethereal and mis mysterious. There's no formula. So it's interesting to just think about I think we can romanticize the like artist's way of just going with the flow and writing all day and whatever. And, I think structure is actually really helpful too. And honoring that is okay.
Wilder: I totally agree. always feel like you said, there is a mysticism that goes into the writing for me, but I think some of the stuff that you're talking about, like we think of the artist way of the all day, whatever, it's like somewhere that got written in a book or something like somewhere,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: it's not really, like when I go back to like a Dylan, you know, he's like, well, I got into a hotel room for three days and just finished a record, you know, or
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: like,
it doesn't matter how you do it, it
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: you're at. And [00:18:00] so I think there's a thing certainly when I moved to Nashville, I wasn't used to the co-write thing either, looking at it. It just felt like, everybody writes the best from 11 to four.
Like, I don't think that's true. You
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: like,
Aaron: Yeah,
Wilder: Can somebody not speak up and say like, this sucks, you know,
Aaron: Wait a minute here. Yeah,
maybe. Maybe we should turn the fluorescent lights
off. I don't know.
Wilder: I don't know what just so crazy to me and I know that systems get made and, there's writers in town. That's all they do.
And I get that, but sort of, I feel like some of my best relationships with writers has turned into that thing where like, I might call 'em at one or two in the afternoon and be like, Hey, I got this thing started. What are you doing?
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: know? And it's like, come over for an hour or two. Let's just like knock this out.
That works better for me in a way. And even if I'm writing a couple a, week maybe, ' that's more my schedule of like with other writers,
I'm
Michaela: I'm taking
Wilder: ton of material. Whether that's good or bad. That's just like what has made the percentages different to me and also made it feel like these are songs that I could cut, like they came from
me.
the first ride I ever went to in Nashville we go in there and this lady goes, you know, [00:19:00] we're like introducing ourselves, whatever. She's like, I do titles. And I was like, I'm looking around like, what? You know? And, And she's like, yeah, I do. I just do titles. I'm like, how does that work? You know?
Aaron: Yeah. Tell me more.
Wilder: yeah, so she reads down this notepad of titles and like pauses after waiting for, I guess connection but it sounded like she's reading like movie titles
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: or something,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: you know,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Superpower.
Michaela: Yep.
Wilder: paused for a while.
Anyway, I just, just, was like, And now, you know, honestly, if somebody brings that in, like I had a song on a Boish record. Y'all know Natalie Mby you know, we're messing with a song for a couple hours and she goes, I have this title forever that I've like, thought it should be in a song.
it was supply and demand is what it was.
Aaron: Oh, cool.
Wilder: it became a water wood song.
You know,
It's
Maybe it can
work.
I think the stranger it is the more you're like open to it. I just think at the time I just was like, this is crazy. I think somebody's gonna have a third of this song.
'cause they wrote a, you know, whatever it is.
Michaela: Yeah. Oh, and that's all she did. She was like, I just provide the [00:20:00] title.
Wilder: I Whoa.
you know. Yeah. If you guys pick and then, you know, I'll see ya at the Grammys or whatever. I don't like, I don't,
Michaela: Wild. I do feel like thinking about genres it's such a country thing to be, like, the title is the hook is the, the catch, you know? Mm-hmm. where also like, we went to a jazz school, so it was like everything was the weirder you could get and the title that like makes no sense.
And then coming to Nashville being like, why would you do that? if somebody hears the song, you want them to know what the title is just from their intuition. Like there's so many different ways to do this. So,
Wilder: Yeah.
Michaela: are.
Wilder: up in that like nineties alternative, it was really alternative,
you know,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Stuff was just weird. and so that's always mean, for a long time I approached it that way, and it was like, oh, the title didn't have to be in the song even, like, why would we have
that?
Aaron: Yes.
Yeah, yeah,
Wilder: you know, it's like,
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: want people to think you're an artist, you know?
Aaron: yes. Yeah.
Wilder: I did like a little bit like of a look back of like songs that [00:21:00] had been successful over the last 15 years or whatever,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Like, oh I think maybe the title does sometimes matter, you know, it's it's interesting that I like went in there.
I didn't think of it as a title at the time, but I had an idea for the song. Like, I always say a window into the house,
Can I describe this somehow? And, anyway, so I've like, been taught a lesson there.
Aaron: man, I guess I've never really thought of it that way. It is like, especially now with streaming. You know, When you look at somebody's. Artist page on whatever it is, title or Apple or Spotify, like you just see, you know, top songs. You're basically just window shopping, so you're like,
Wilder: Yeah,
Aaron: what's that that's a cool name. Like,
Wilder: Cool. and probably the lesson of writing with other people has been the thing that opens you up to that more is
Michaela: mm-hmm.
Wilder: You see other people's process and how they approach it. And I did a thing with Anderson East a couple years ago where me and him were just writing and he wanted me to sing and play the, demo, after the thing or whatever.
But I'm not great on piano, so it's like, I can only play this in like two keys,
and I'm like all nervous and I was just doing that without even knowing I was doing it.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: This crazy pressure on the demo now. And I just was [00:22:00] approaching it so aggressively
And he is like, dude, it's just music.
What are you talk like, stop. He's like, just sing it and play it.
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: literally I think that comes into my mind like, all the time now when I'm in there, I feel my whole body tensing up. Like, I'm really gotta get this, you
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
yeah.
Wilder: Uh, Yeah, I know Daniel Tian probably I remember he has this gag where like, you know, all the writers have a gag that they do.
It gets tense or whatever, but his is like, screams out in the middle of nothing in silence. He's like, God, never gonna get this, you know, everybody kind of melts, you know?
Aaron: yeah.
Wilder: so those kind of lessons I felt like from other writers has really helped me a ton of like, you don't even realize your body is so driven by
Michaela: Yeah.
Wilder: you need to like, do a thing.
The less I'm like that, the better probably,
you Yeah.
come to me.
So.
Michaela: with co-writing, especially if you're in a room with, writers that you really admire, and I notice if my brain isn't focused on the song, it's more focused on, oh my God, I have to think of something really quick.
And Oh, I wonder if they [00:23:00] think I'm not contributing enough, or I'm too slow, and then it's like, well, now I'm never gonna think of anything because I'm so consumed with how I'm performing and how they're judging me. and I don't really think that way about the writers when I'm writing with people, but it, immediately blocks your ability to flow as soon as you start getting self-conscious and trying to like, push it for
Aaron: You know, you put editor in the front of the class and it's like, no, no, no. That needs to move to the back. love people that come in and they have those little things, like you were saying that Daniel has about like kind of just blowing off steam or something that like whether it's actually being explicit about like, we're all feeling the same thing or just some little joke thing.
It's like, we're all in this, together like we're all like excavating our brains and our hearts at the same time and being really vulnerable and like, kind of a weird process.
Here we are in this room doing this.
Wilder: thing to be doing with adults.
Aaron: Yep.
Wilder: Um,
Yeah. I noticed too, like I would sit going to these rights and I would sit in the same chair for seven hours or whatever it was, you know,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: they're like, lunch. I'm like, I'm good.
You know? I just would like, I was so driven towards that
Aaron: [00:24:00] Mm-hmm.
Wilder: like,
just walking around makes you better, you know,
Aaron: Yep.
Wilder: the old Paul Simon thing about the tennis ball or whatever. I just think all of that plays such a, bigger role. I mean, I'm, big on the sort of, Y'all know, war of Art, that book
Was a big change for me.
Just 'cause I'm not, I just am such in a hurry and I would get in here in the morning and just kind of like start going before I looked at anything around the room or any of that. you know, I have a candle burning now. Those kind of things. Like, I come in and just
Michaela: Yeah.
Wilder: prepare the space a little bit and it's crazy, like the difference it makes to me now, all those kind of things.
So like the more I can lean into the weirdness in terms of that,
The more I get in that space faster I guess, and just feel like, oh this, this is the right mindset for this.
Michaela: of the reasons, I also love getting to have these conversations. 'cause we had Mary Gaer on, whotalked about how she has to create the space for her to write. She's like, my writing days, I don't answer emails. And also talked about how slow her process was that she was like, I'm not gonna write a song in three hours.
Like the way that, music Row dictates it. She's like, I need to go to a co-write. We can talk, [00:25:00] have some ideas, then I need to come back a different day. You know where Rodney Crow we saw him at a, dinner and I was talking to him about coming on this podcast and he was like, Yes, after next week, because I'm gonna go somewhere for a little bit. And I was like, where are you going? And he was like, I need like a retreat. then when he came on the podcast, he shared like he wasn't physically going somewhere. He was like mentally retreating meaning like he was just gonna like turn off and be in his own house walking, walking his land.
Like, Yeah. And he was like, those things are really important to me. And I was like, so when you were going somewhere, you were like going somewhere.
Wilder: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. Totally.
Totally. so hearing from people like them who are like, oh yeah, I have to do all of this stuff to create, I'm not just like churning out songs nonstop.
Michaela: I have to create the emotional and even physical space and mental space to create. And then also. Hearing from them, like they don't love everything that they write. They're like, my success rate is [00:26:00] maybe like 30, 40%. Or, you know, our favorite story is that Rodney Crow had a huge hit with shame on the Moon, Bob Seeger.
30 years later, Rodney's like, I'm still not sure about that Third verse is that that third verse is still not there.
Aaron: It's
Wilder: Totally.
Aaron: he's like, I, think I might have it now. I don't know. We'll see in a couple years, you know? yeah. Yeah.
Michaela: So hearing from people who, obviously create a lot of quality work and then have outside success hearing from others, just what everyone's process is and how much it does take is, reaffirming.
Every time I hear it, even when you are a writer of just like, oh right, These expectations we have on ourself, people who are producing at a high level, like they also have those expectations and have continually learned ways to care for themselves and their work.
Wilder: For sure. And that's hard. I mean, I think I've just been doing it long enough, which is nice to kind of learn some of those things I just didn't have at all at the beginning.
you talk about like the producer and [00:27:00] studio stuff the band is in this situation all the time where it's like, oh, we've got seven days in the studio, so let's work from, 10 to whatever.
you realize like how ineffective that is. If you don't cut out for dinner, I work with this guy, Jim Scott. He's an engineer.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Guy for a long time. He did that. Wild Flowers, Tom Petty record, which always has been like my
Aaron: Yeah,
Wilder: for the way a record should sound.
It's
Aaron: for sure.
Wilder: we went out to, outside of la he had a studio we did a record there. And he was like the most like the dude from the Grabowski, he was just like, we got a hot band. You know, We got a hot studio. He'd say stuff like, he's like, so let's get in there, you know, let's just, you know, make some, magic.
And then, and we'd like play a track three times,
Take it three times. He's like, alright, you guys take a break. Lemme put a hot mix together. And he had this whole setup where you listen to records and eat peanuts and whatever, and we're just hanging out, you know, we
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: And it sounds great.
We're like, oh, I think maybe. And he is like, we're gonna have lunch and dinner. Everybody's gonna sit down.
He had another room you went to. Everybody sits around the table. We just talk. And it, I [00:28:00] always felt like this sort of antsiness a little bit
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: uh, We're spending a lot of money out here.
You
Michaela: Yeah.
Wilder: I think, I think this two hour lunch could uh, let's go. You know? Um, But looking back on that, you're like, man, it was just insane the work we got done in a short period of time, because people's like real focused and just you know, taking yourself. Seriously in the process. Like, You're not this machine, I think that's a hard thing even for me to do. Just kind of like remind, you hear actors talk about it being connected to humanity in a way,
That becomes harder and harder as you kind of understand what the process looks like. I'm working on a record that's gonna be a single, I'm gonna have to shoot a video and I'm gonna have to promote that for two years, and I'm gonna have to, he's like,
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: ahead of yourself.
Whereas in the early days, you're just like, maybe somebody will listen to this.
Michaela: Right.
Mm-hmm.
Wilder: I think, which is a, freeing thing.
Aaron: For sure. On that, I kind of wanna talk about you starting Wilder Woods and having an actual project, you know, skin in the game. Side project from need to breathe. I know the pandemic kind of shifted your, [00:29:00] creativity process. Does having this, touring record, releasing side project, solo project, how has that shifted your creativity?
Wilder: still figuring it out.
As the cycle of when to do it and how to do it I would say that like, I was starting to write songs that were not need to breathe in the sense like,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: some out I was like, this is the best material I've written.
Like I loved it the most. who cares about success and all that, but
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: if I met somebody and they said, play your best song, I'd play this one. we would put it out, under the need to breathe thing. And it's like nobody liked it
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: because, you know, it's like you think you're getting ice cream, you get something else, you know, it's
Michaela: Yep.
Wilder: what basically that was.
And
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: that is what really started me thinking like, I really need a place to put this stuff if I love it.
Michaela: [00:30:00] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilder: you know, Break the rules here, do this, you know, like get the whole band working in, so I like directing that whole process and that, had gotten, not stale, but just like, it kind of gotten used to what we were doing in the band.
So
Ronald Woods thing is totally different in that way. but in terms of like the cycles of touring and all that, it's kind of crazy
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Honest with you. I don't have that sort of diva ish thing. It's not like going down to we're on three buses on the need debris thing.
It's one bus on the Wilder Woods, and there's way less people to take care of you and all those,
you know,
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: good or whatever. It's like
I can kind of put up with that stuff. For the most part, but I do think it's tough when the audiences are smaller.
You kind of, find like, man, this is, you know, we're on the third record now,
You're going out and playing clubs that are like, gosh, I mean this is like, I feel like this stuff's great and it's just, which I know everybody feels at the beginning of projects
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: The whole time.
But, there's been more of that feeling of man, this is really hard to get people to listen to this stuff. Like, It's not the guy from need to breathe.
Aaron: Yeah. Had it stand on its own feet.
Wilder: Yeah. And it's like
I called it water woods because of that,
Michaela: [00:31:00] Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Don't call it your name or whatever.
And that's also like backfired. 'cause people come up all the time, it's like, oh, I love waters. I just didn't know it was you. I'm like well, I really marketed this horribly, obviously. Um, you know, the hardest thing has been, like festivals and stuff will be like can need debris play on Friday and Water Woods play on Saturday.
I'm like it's, it's completely different band and different song. Like the idea that, I can play a two hour set two days in a row. They're completely different. I'm not that good. I'm not, like, I'm not getting my head turned into the other thing.
and
Michaela: Also the logistics of
like,
Wilder: it's insane.
one guitar player plays in both things everything else is different. it's kind of chaos. so switching over the Wildwood thing the, first couple weeks of a tour are the, toughest in terms of it's hard to explain.
Like you physically feel a certain thing, like need to breathe is sort of a tasteless rock and roll band. That's the way I would describe it. Like everything's on 10 all the time.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: You play as hard as you can, that's just what we did when we came up and that's what we still
do.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: And Louder Woods is like the opposite of that. Like how [00:32:00] back can the pocket be and how subtle can a thing be
and
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: about the groove and everything. when you get on stage, Wilder Woods things just feels slow to me.
Like
Michaela: Right.
Wilder: To coming out, like raging
Michaela: Yeah.
Wilder: I get into the 80 BPM thing and I'm like, I.
What is happening? Like this first song took an hour, you know, it, so it takes me a week or so to get settled into like, oh, this is a different thing, but for me the expectation like sinking into it.
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Wilder: So I'm probably in that now that we've got a couple weeks in, I'm like totally switched over.
But if I had to go the do the needed breathing tomorrow, like it would be a wreck too,
you know?
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: probably, I'm talking to management and all those things, they're like, could you do this? I'm like, maybe, but you know, it's like a one-offs and stuff like that, I think keeping it, at least in its own windows is probably the better,
Aaron: I can imagine, health. And I hate the idea too of like cheapening the water wood thing, just 'cause we need to breathe, has got this big offer somewhere or whatever it is.
Michaela: right?
Wilder: we're, kind of, you know, figuring that out.
Aaron: Yeah. I hear you saying like, [00:33:00] basically you started the Wilder Woods to have an outlet for these songs that you had, and you're like, what is this? I was kind of interpreting what you're saying, so it was like a little bit of a playground project where it's like, I have these songs that I love.
Does it still feel that way
Wilder: It does
Aaron: Cool.
Wilder: does. It feels less, you know,
the first record everything just had to be different.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Like maybe a, an obstacle that I put in there that I shouldn't have. But it was just always at the top of mind was like, if it's anything like need to breathe, then I don't want it, I feel like song wise, that's not the best process, obviously. now feels more me.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: record just feels like this is what I like. And it's different than the band. Sure. But it's still something I would write again.
you know, if this was the only project I was doing right now, I think this is what it would sound
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Um, So I kind of let that be, like, the water woods thing is less of a collective.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilder: More like, okay, this is what I love and really I'm just gonna, live and die by
that.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: The band thing is more democracy.
yes, I'm gonna bring something. That's my thing that I love, But I'm gonna let y'all, we've always said like, Zeppelin didn't have one of the members. Are they Led Zeppelin?
so you try to treat the band thing [00:34:00] with that sort of respect of like, everybody's gotta have an opinion, even if you think their opinion
sucks,
You have to figure out how to get it.
everybody on the same page, Wildwood s thing is, more free like that. But it's nice now. At least there's songs on there that, probably could go through the filter of need to breathe and make it on those records. And I don't feel like that's a bad thing.
Like they're just, if I wanna make the songs, I should make the songs.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Is there any crossover live or you keep need to breathe? Songs need to breathe.
Wilder: there's a song or two of Wilder Woods that I'm always like, man, we play like
an
Aaron: Hey guys, check this out.
Wilder: set. I'm
we, should play this song. It would be perfect.
But we haven't done that. And I think that's a, tricky road to go down.
I we did a tour with one Republic a couple years ago, and Tedder did like a whole thing in the middle of him playing his other. that he had
written,
And it's very entertaining, but I kind of hated it too.
Yeah.
You know, I liked te so, but I, but just, I, could feel like this thing of like, the audience being like well, I thought I came to see
Michaela: Yeah.
Wilder: that's impressive.
I didn't know that. But it's also like, [00:35:00] wait, show were we at? I just felt like the flow of, what that album is trying to say in that night is supposed to be about.
so I think I'll keep it like that, at least for a while. I, you know, I
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Dream that like when I turn, 60 I'll be able to go out and do my own thing, like in theaters.
I would love to do that
whatever songs I've written my whole life, no matter where they go. Just play the stuff I wanna play that night. But we're not there yet,
so,
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: someday.
Michaela: it's so interesting of again, like the relationship of the business aspect of like, okay, these are the, songs we gotta play 'cause this is the audience. And then also like the artistic creative fulfillment which I think is hard for some people to understand of like, okay, I've been doing these songs though for 15 years and I'm like not feeling fulfilled by it anymore.
And I think your nervous system, everything becomes relative, right? So
like playing, arenas. I have never done that, but I would imagine you get used to it, like you said, like that once you like get off of the need to breathe stuff everything feels like slower and calmer doing Wilder Woods and [00:36:00] your nervous system is probably trying to acclimate.
I'm curious how. when you say, you know, you're playing smaller rooms, are you having kind of those same expectations for Wilder Woods of okay, how do I get this to the level of
Wilder: They're not the same, like, I've always been, I think, 'cause when the band started, I was like the one guy, into the business side of
Michaela: mm-hmm.
Wilder: of the,
the leadership side of it. And every band has to have that. I don't care how artistic you are,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: unless you can bring the five guys together, or four or 10 or whatever.
It's, so I've always had that in the Wilder Woods, but it's, very different in terms of the goals.
Part of the reason to do it, you know, need Tore doesn't normally tour with the bands. Maybe we have openers that are like this, but we're not gonna get an opening slot on a band that I listen to.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: You know, Just the way it is. Like,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: it would be really fun. Wouldn't it be cool if like, when I went out and collaborated, the bands that I actually love and listened to and respect were kind of the circle that we were in. so there's an element of [00:37:00] that goal of
Michaela: Okay.
Wilder: What kind of size do you have to be to, get invited to do that and whatever.
And then the other thing is, I think it just needs to be viable. and that's gotten harder and harder. That's a longer conversation on the business side of
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
for sure.
Wilder: And like, it's just, it's pure insanity to me that people can start out, especially in bands that like, know, you can go out with a bus and sell out every room and not make any money.
It So I think there's a level of that I never thought about, like Wildwood, I just can't imagine in arenas or
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: but I think that sort of. You know, Like the Tabernacle on Atlanta, that 2,500 kind of club slash theater sort of thing.
It is like the magic.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Love that. I'm playing the Ryman on this tour with Wilder Woods for the first time. So like,
Michaela: Amazing.
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: that,
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah.
Wilder: you know, what I mean? So Mm-hmm. is different. It's not as much world domination, think with the Walter Woods thing.
but I do think it keeps you kind of driven and into it and disciplined in a certain way.
just seen with kids now, it's like they're so TikTok dependent They have no control of their live thing.
[00:38:00] They have no sense of like what we used to have, like. I was always like, look, if you play in front of 200 people in a club, if you want it to be 300 next time, you better be amazing.
If anybody leaves there and says that was pretty good, they're not coming back
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: like, Mm-hmm.
the what it takes to get actual people to be like, I'm going next year to that.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilder: A crazy high bar. so I think having, that's always helped me kind of, when you're on the third night in a row it's like half full you know, the crew's kind of feeling it too and everybody, I really enjoy to like challenge the people that are around us to be like, dude. These couple hundred people, whoever it is, like it's the first time they're seeing this. And hopefully there's a kid out there who's 16 like I was when I saw Ben Harper and the Innocent Criminals. And I thought that my world could never be like that. You know, This
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Wonderment
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Want to create that and you gotta do it night and night out. So I think part of that, you know, drive of getting there. The, The other thing is my success. Gage has always been about artistic freedom.
the truth is, it's just really hard to decide like, I wanna work with this producer.
If you [00:39:00] haven't done enough or you don't have the budget to make that record, you don't get to. so it's always been that thing to me of like, yeah, I would love to have, these musicians play with me. That means you're taking a bus because these guys
are not going in a band.
There's like some reality that has to set in.
Aaron: I love that you brought up for success. ' know, that's something we say you know, this industry they're in, we all know really well like, 90% of this industry is completely out of our control. what is within our control is our creativity, our artistic integrity and like what we.
Put out. love to ask that of, guesses like, how do you gauge success from know, year over year? Because
Wilder: Yeah,
Aaron: sure, you can look at ticket sales, you can look at album sales and all that, but like, at the end of the day it's, not in your control no matter how much you think, it's, no matter how many thousands of dollars you play at publicist every month,
Wilder: Right? Yeah,
Aaron: They'll be the first ones to tell you like, we'll
pitch these people, but who knows?
Wilder: Yeah,
Aaron: Yeah.
Michaela: Yeah.
And I think, and one of the things we talk a lot about is also knowing where you want to be. knowing, if my goal is to be able to play arenas, what does that path look [00:40:00] like? And what do I need to be willing to do to try to get there? Or. Do I think that that's my goal because we just think that that's the utmost level of success or is my real goal to be able to play small clubs or
to be able to play the Ryman sized room around the country and what does that look like?
I think that's really helpful to be able to know like also, oh, my music fits better in this space. That's been a process for me of thinking like, oh, I should just try to be bigger and bigger. I'm like, oh no, actually, I'm like a folky storyteller doesn't really come across in
a rowdy room of thousands of people.
When you're an opener, like I actually do a lot better in like a room of two to 500 people,
And recognizing that, and also recognizing on the financial side, oh, you make a living doing that, but then maybe you aren't gonna be on a bus and you're not gonna have,
like this whole crew, you're gonna have a slimmer team.
And like, just being able to navigate all of that stuff, like matching your artistic vision with [00:41:00] financial and business realities I think is like really helpful and something you just learn along the way. And I think conversations like this help you understand that of, oh, okay, that's what that's like
Wilder: Yeah. trying to think through the, drew Holcomb is a buddy. It's like a
Michaela: mm-hmm.
Wilder: of somebody who, like when I met him, was just begging to get on a tour kind of thing. Didn't have a lot going on, you know, but he always had a very clear idea. Of what he wanted to do and how he wanted to do it.
it's taken longer than he wanted probably, but it's started to happen. You know? It's I don't think I know anybody that's been doing it for, call it over 15 years, 10, 15 years, that hasn't had to have that conversation with themselves very seriously.
It's different, you know, I think younger, newer artists like can get this like overnight thing and then it's just now the, journey's like pulling them, they're not like dictating it at
But I think most people that have been around enough, at some point forces like, okay I've got a buddy rider he is always talking about. He's like, I try to think about what I want to be like in 10 [00:42:00] years and not what I wanna be like next year.
Aaron: Yeah.
Mm-hmm. That's like a great, it's a hard thing for a young person to do, I would imagine.
Wilder: But like for me that's such a great, okay, what does this look like in 10 years? And am I gonna be okay with that in the trajectory? I'm going,
Wilder: this is actually gonna look like that? is this livable? do I want to do that?
Do I wanna be gone this much? Or all those kind of
things.
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: Good questions to ask.
Aaron: were saying, you don't think Wilder Woods would ever be an arena band, and just got me thinking about like, venues and like where you present your music, you know what I mean? it's like were talking to Tyler Ramsey, who
Wilder: Yeah.
Aaron: is a great writer, used to be in band of horses, and
Wilder: Yeah.
Aaron: was saying, you know, he knows that his soul music not meant to be, big festival stages, all of that. this was months ago, they talked to him, but like thinking about like. really the venue is like the frame around the piece of art. You know, It's like
Wilder: no
Aaron: can have a great piece of art and you put a horrible frame on there and it kind of ruins both, you know what I mean? And it's like, one day Wilder Woods is big enough to sell out Bridgestone, but you could just choose to do five nights at the Ryman or like Isbell or, or do [00:43:00] what j Jason Isbell does, and you know,
Pretty soon it's gonna be Jason Isabel presents February at the
Ryman, you know?
Wilder: right.
yeah, totally. I've always been the biggest
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: booking agent, and it's because of that, I've always just like God, I wanna play the place in town. People want to go see a show. but also my fans wanna see it.
I mean, It's like you have to consider all that kind of thing. It's like our, the need to read things been going so long. It's like nobody wants to, me personally, I don't wanna go stand up at a show for four hours.
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Not, 'cause I don't love music. I'm inspired by it more than ever. and I go see a ton of shows,
If I gotta stand there for four hours, it's once a year I'm doing that,
Michaela: Yep.
Wilder: when you book a venue, you know, it's the same thing. It's are the people like you who love this music? 'cause you made it, 'cause you love it. They want to come and go through that. Or would they rather have a place to park, you know,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: It's
Wilder: so I would get on 'em about theaters that had white walls.
It's like, we can't play in any theaters that have white walls. We're bringing all this production,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: From the stage now make this whole room bright. Now everybody's insecure about being in there. They feel uncomfortable. We're uncomfortable. I was like.
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: They're out, you know, so
Aaron: [00:44:00] Yeah.
Wilder: our agent is just, probably hates us.
I don't know, but I do think that it's like you can bring all this stuff onto a stage, but a venue, I mean, we all know. It's like you go to these, what feels like a magical place, and if the music fits that room, there's nothing better than that. And you also have seen, acts that like don't belong in a place.
And you're like, this is totally wrong. So I
Aaron: Yeah,
Wilder: you.
Aaron: you're,
giving your audience, you're giving these people an experience. The whole night is an experience for
them, you know, walking into the venue, like all of that.
Michaela: Yeah. And I think for some, do you know Aaron Lee Tasn? He's Years ago when we first moved to town, Aaron had like a, album release show and this Aaron played drums with him.
And Aaron Lee Tasn is a good friend. But I remember going to the show and it was at the original basement, the very small little basement is a small venue, like maybe a hundred cap.
Aaron: Yeah. 1, 1 20 maybe.
Michaela: And it was packed. And I remember like feeling like it was just one of those shows that was so magical and fun.
And part of it was the fact that we were like so squished together in this communal [00:45:00] experience. And I remember thinking, and this is like no dis on the basement east like, but that's a much bigger room. And I've seen so many shows there and I've played shows there it's just like a. Bigger space.
So it always is inevitably like, back people are like talking or like going to the bar and I remember very vividly being like, oh, this show would feel different if it was in a big venue, even if that big venue was sold out. Just like the chatter that happens, the bar happening.
are so many elements to consider when putting on a show, when presenting your music that I think we can overlook and just constantly think bigger is better. And I think that's why the Ryman is such a special place not because it's
huge, it's because of way the room is set up, how it looks.
Everybody's right there. The wood.
Yeah.
don't play nearly as many shows as I used to, but like, I grew up playing, you DIY shows and playing little tiny things where it's like there is no stage and like the audience is right there and you're all in it together and the band's energy goes up and the audience's energy and it like, you feed off each [00:46:00] other and it creates this thing and it's like, still think that's super fun.
Aaron: So like, bringing up the OG basement or a place like that or even like what Jack White was doing with his band like last year, where they, they get in a van and they drive themselves and they play like a tiny rock club. Like
Wilder: Yeah.
Aaron: I'm sure that was a bunch of fun for them. what I mean?
Wilder: I don't think there's anything better than that small club feel if it's more rock or more intimate or whatever it is, when the energy starts going back and forth like that,
my feet are not on the ground
anymore.
Aaron: Yeah, exactly.
Wilder: planet, that, and that is, so hard to do. That's why I have respect for those people that, you watch the Springsteen do it in an arena, you're like.
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: level to do that and how you've done that over the years. I, it's incredible.
it's a different art form, Pearl Jam was a great example. I went and saw, Pearl Jam in the Killers two nights in a row at Bridgestone
Aaron: Okay. Yeah.
Wilder: just randomly. 'cause I was like, it'd be interesting to see like the two different approaches.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: No click, you know, just wedges. They're playing looses. I mean, Everything's too fast.
You know, it's like, it's, and they're calling the set, you know what I mean? stuff that you would know as a musician,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: The people are so into it. they had the lights on for like the last four or five songs in the arena
and [00:47:00] felt so communal. all of a sudden I was like, I feel like I'm in a bar
Michaela: Whoa.
Wilder: it's 15,000 people.
I'm
like,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Insane. The le like, how they figured out how to do
And then the Killers, you know, just is a totally opposite theatrical kind of vegasy thing, It's refreshing, I guess to me to like I walked away from those two shows going like, oh, I saw Tame Impala in that same
Aaron: Mm.
Wilder: there, you know,
it's like, and I can't see the band the entire time.
Aaron: Yep.
Wilder: was like, I, it felt like I was on a drug trip for two hours. It was like this, the fact that music can be experienced in so many different ways, but in all great
you know,
It does say that. I think it's knowing what you're trying to do in that night and,
Aaron: exactly that.
Wilder: an intimate band trying to be like know, arena
Aaron: Yeah, for sure. Yeah,
Wilder: You
Aaron: knowing your thing and leaning into it like
fully, you know? that's that subconscious thing about music and about shows that like. you just feel whether, you know anything technical about music or putting on a show it's, it's, you know, what makes the stew happen.
Wilder: doubt.
Aaron: Yeah.
Michaela: [00:48:00] And the relationship between the audience and the performer. Yeah. That it's not just one sided. Again, like we talk about all the different things that are out of our control and can control how you perform, but you can't control how the audience is gonna receive you or what energy they're gonna give back to you.
And so, like navigating that is a whole other art form as well.
Wilder: no doubt that's, well said. It's a major challenge. You start putting pressure on the, audience. That's probably where I get in the most trouble because it's night to night. You sort of have this expectation for the energy level and those kind of things.
And when I don't have that I'll have this huge feeling like I failed,
Michaela: Yeah.
Wilder: I'll walk off and then my wife will be like, that was the best show on the tour.
Michaela: Yeah.
Wilder: I didn't, I was, I was just looking for this other relationship to happen, and I didn't know that it was happening, I was giving it everything.
But like, that's a challenge for me. Like to just really lower it. Like, I tell the band all the time, I'm let it go where it wants to go.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: Not have an anticipation before like, don't be thinking about Song eight at Song One. Like
Michaela: Mm-hmm. [00:49:00]
Wilder: The moment in that song and then like, let it play.
And maybe I'm getting better at it, but it's still very difficult,
Aaron: It really is. reminds me of a, that, guess it's kind of a Buddhist story or something like that. I can't remember where exactly where I heard it, but let's just say like this, emperor takes two of his, philosophers, his thinkers, and sends them away islands for a couple months has them think and study and do all that, and then calls them back and asks about their experience.
And everyone was like, it was amazing. Everybody was like, so open and welcoming. We had a great community and like, you know, we, all these ideas came. one was just like, I didn't, yeah, I didn't meet anybody. It was cold. I you know, the whole process was very arduous, very telling.
And then come to find out they were sent to the same island and it was
just their head space, you know?
Wilder: yeah,
yeah. No question.
Aaron: we like to be wary of our, our time and grateful that you've taken so much time. We end these hours
Michaela: flew by. It did
Aaron: it, did we like to end these conversations kind of the same question of of choose your own adventure, either something that you would tell.
Younger you that's just getting into this business or something that [00:50:00] somebody has told you along the way that has just kind of resonated with you and carried you through.
Wilder: I mean, there's so many that come to mind. I'm just so old. So I, a lot of things I felt about teaching it, you know, it's like, it's such a, and I'd love the experience of meeting young artists. I love talking to 'em backstage about what they're going through. Like not to worry about those things and this thing.
it's very simple. I think for me though having trust, that you wouldn't have it any other way. I got too just worried about results,
I didn't trust that this was gonna go where it was supposed to go,
I think I could boil it pretty much down every time to like, do I trust this or not trust this?
And I have no say in whether it works out or not or where it goes. Mm-hmm.
I have all the say in just like what's the experience is like. and so I think that to me is probably I'll learn forever,
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Wilder: in this business. I think that expectation and real disappointment and so much of it was internal.
Aaron: Yeah.
Wilder: we were at was internal and not actually with the [00:51:00] results. It was actually going way better than I was letting it.
Michaela: I love that.
Aaron: Yeah, that's, me that's right in line with what we were just saying like, experience it for what it is and, enjoy it Yeah. Well Bear, thank you for taking time with us this to, to sit and chat.
Michaela: So nice to meet you.
Yeah,
thank you so much. right.
Aaron: Alright, man, take Bye. Bye.
Wilder: See ya.