Lera Lynn has released 8+ records, written and recorded songs for True Detective (HBO) with T-Bone Burnett and Rosanne Cash (as well as being cast as a character), played Late Night with David Letterman, toured extensively nationally and internationally, and has been praised by NPR, Rolling Stone, Nylon, and other outlets. We go deep with Lera on learning and setting your own boundaries with yourself and with the industry, lived experiences with the impact and bias against women and mothers by the music industry, losing your sense of purpose and finding it again, enjoying yourself, and more.
Lera Lynn has released 8+ records, written and recorded songs for True Detective (HBO) with T-Bone Burnett and Rosanne Cash (as well as being cast as a character), played Late Night with David Letterman, toured extensively nationally and internationally, and has been praised by NPR, Rolling Stone, Nylon, and other outlets. We go deep with Lera on learning and setting your own boundaries with yourself and with the industry, lived experiences with the impact and bias against women and mothers by the music industry, losing your sense of purpose and finding it again, enjoying yourself, and more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,
[00:00:20] Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 127, and this week we're featuring our conversation with Lera Lynn.
[00:00:28] Aaron: Lira is a singer songwriter originally from Texas that now lives here in Nashville whose husband is also a, musician of really in demand session guitar player and producer, songwriter Lira has been releasing her own record since around 2014. She's played. The Late Show with David Letterman. A uh, missed bucket list opportunity for myself. Not with her, just I missed David Letterman. she's been praised by Rolling Stone, nylon NPR, American Songwriter Tour all over the world. And also wrote songs along with Roseanne Cash and t-Bone Burnett for the show. True detective on HBO.
[00:01:04] Michaela: Yeah. And she was also cast as a character And one of the things of many things we talked about in this conversation was kind of the challenge of gaining fans in that specific way and learning how to navigate creating art.
Not to satisfy a certain fan base, but to satisfy oneself and treading that water. we talk about hitting rock bottom and quitting.
[00:01:28] Aaron: Straight up, like she says, straight up quitting, cleared her house of guitars, put all her stage clothes in storage.
[00:01:34] Michaela: Yeah. And the process, the therapy, the work that was done to mm-hmm.
Release the shame and fear around failure.
[00:01:42] Aaron: got a note that
she has since quit quitting as of this episode has a new record out is on tour. So yes. Stay with us for that.
[00:01:49] Michaela: Yeah. The re-ignition of motivation and excitement around not only creating art. Sharing it with the world.
Mm-hmm. And engaging once again in the business of it all. we also go really deep on the reality of becoming a mother in this industry. Specifically advice for young women who might be thinking about motherhood in this business. What we wish we had known, setting specific boundaries and being proactively blunt with the people in our team.
[00:02:18] Aaron: If you've listened to a past episode of the show, you know that our Patreons get advanced notice. So there are topics in this conversation that we touch on that come as direct suggestions from them.
on top of getting advanced notice You also get the moral satisfaction of knowing that you directly financially support the production of this show, which is no. Small feat even for a smaller show like ours. So if you'd like to go deeper or if you'd like to just simply help us pay for the production of this show, we would really appreciate that.
There's a link to our Patreon below in the show notes.
[00:02:47] Michaela: Yeah, we love our Patreon community. And speaking of community, we also love our fellow podcast. One of which is a brand new one over on the Bluegrass Situation Podcast Network, who are good friends of ours. Mm-hmm. Finding Lucinda is a new podcast following singer songwriter Isme while they trace the roots of their musical hero, Lucinda Williams.
All of our musical hero, Lucin Williams Mine for sure. Definitely iSay Road trips to Texas, Louisiana, and Tennessee to meet Lucinda's early collaborators digs through family archives and visits the places where Lucinda got her start. It features conversations with Charlie Sexton, buddy Miller, and one of our own favorite guests.
Mary Gaucher Finding Lucinda is available on the bluegrass situation or wherever you listen,
[00:03:33] Aaron: which is probably where you're listening to this one right now.
[00:03:35] Michaela: Exactly. And look out for the Finding Lucinda film, which is coming out this season, fall of 2025.
[00:03:41] Aaron: And if that film excited you, you also be excited to know that our show is also on YouTube, if you'd like to sit and watch us have this conversation. So without further ado, here is our talk with our friend Lira Lynn,
[00:03:52] Lera: you are someone who you can self record, right? Like you can engineer, you've put out records where you've played everything and recorded yourself. Correct.
In my very limited way. I
[00:04:04] Michaela: Yeah. But what can you talk about? I'm trying to like rack my brain of my own information.
Was that pandemic or was that an intentional like, I want to prove to myself or show that I can do this?
[00:04:16] Lera: yeah, it was before the pandemic.
[00:04:18] Michaela: Oh, okay.
[00:04:19] Lera: because of the timing of the release. Everyone assumes that was, the direction I went because. I had to, but no, that was self-inflicted isolation before I knew what was coming. I wanted to see if I could do that on my own. I was also curious to know what it would sound like without someone else's influence.
[00:04:39] Michaela: What did that process feel like?
[00:04:41] Lera: It was, liberating. at times I felt emboldened and really proud and confident and also incredibly insecure and frustrating. You know, it was kind of a roller coaster making all of the decisions by yourself is hard.
[00:04:58] Aaron: ton of decisions to be made.
[00:04:59] Lera: every single thing that goes on the record is a decision.
Yeah. Is this the right part? Is this the right instrument? Is it good enough? Is it recorded well enough? You know,
[00:05:10] Aaron: how did that experience influence the way you made records when you went back to working with other people?
[00:05:15] Lera: I guess I rejoiced in collaboration. I mean, I, was never opposed to collaboration. it was, you know, kind of a, giant experiment just to see what would happen
[00:05:26] Lera: and to see that I could actually follow through and complete something a project of that size and scope on my own.
[00:05:32] Aaron: Yeah. Absolutely. One thing, you know, back on the, decision making, one thing that I like. About working with other people, is that keeps the decisions in perspective. Somebody can be like, this isn't really like a big decision. We don't really need to make this decision.
We can just let it happen. You're like, oh,
[00:05:46] Lera: Yeah, that's a really good point.
[00:05:48] Michaela: But so much of like every step of creativity decision making, which I think sometimes we underestimate, when we can have like emotional turmoil that can make us feel like we're stuck or it's not flowing or whatever.
Like so much is just like indecision
for fear of what the consequence of that decision is gonna be and like. When it comes to songwriting, when it comes to recording, when it comes to how you share the music with the world on the business side, what pictures do you use?
Like it's just a million decisions that can be so empowering and exciting or crippling if consciously or subconsciously we're worried about what the result is gonna be.
how many records have you made at this point?
[00:06:33] Lera: Nine or 10.
[00:06:34] Michaela: that gotten. Easier for you or harder, and I'm really specifically interested in the place that you're at now in your creative path well as your career path, we always try and separate the two. So where, in your life process of creating records and music and art and you're also a painter, but then also your relationship to how you make decisions of how you engage with the commerce of it.
[00:07:02] Lera: it's been a long journey and, I think in the very beginning I was completely naive of the business aspects and sort of the permanence of, releasing music. You know, I was just like, we got a song, cool. we made a record. You know, I was just more excited that I had enough material and was less, you know, uh, pressuring myself less about making it as good as it could be or, potentially have commercial appeal or any of those things.
And then as the career progressed, yes, I became more aware of, the bottom line and things that move the needle. And, I think that it, could have been a hindrance. I'm not sure if it was a positive or negative thing because I think sometimes having certain parameters can actually help you because otherwise you're just like trying to pull something out of thin, Eric, that can be crippling.
Where do you begin? How do you decide what's worthy of creating or putting into existence? but then it definitely, I think, went too far for me. I don't know that it is necessarily exemplified in my music because I have always heard that voice and done my best to keep it at bay and, keep it out of the room.
I have failed at that too, but
[00:08:18] Michaela: Hmm.
[00:08:19] Lera: at this point, I don't care anymore about commercial appeal. I just want to make music that is fun to make, that I would enjoy listening to, and it's taken me a long time to get there. I remember after doing, the True Detective soundtrack, it was time for me to, to make a new record, but I was, in a predicament, which was that I had gained all of these new fans through writing very dark, sad, slow songs for this character in a TV show.
and I think that the, fans that, found me through that music had an expectation that that was who I was as an artist, and I felt pressure to satisfy them in that way, but also satisfy myself and make a record that felt true. To me,
And that was resistor. So I think had that pressure and awareness not been there, resistor would've been an entirely different record.
I kind of like split it. I was like, I'm gonna do half the record that I think will appeal to those fans and half the record that I want to make.
[00:09:24] Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm. how did you measure that as results? Did you feel like you successfully did that?
[00:09:30] Lera: Oh God, I have no idea.
[00:09:32] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:09:34] Lera: I can't m measure any success you guys. Yeah.
[00:09:40] Michaela: Well, that's why I asked that. 'cause I'm like, as this becomes our career path and whatever little like moments we get in the career or recognition or in certain, we can get so caught up in, okay, well how do I do that again?
Or how do I the people that. I have been my fans but I'm always like, but how do we measure? Whenever I try to measure my fan relationship, I'm like, do I have any grip on reality in this situation? I don't think so.
[00:10:11] Lera: How could you possibly know?
[00:10:13] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:10:13] Lera: I mean, I guess the only real kind of measurement you could take, if you can use Real, is going and playing shows and seeing people's faces and how they connect to the music and.
[00:10:26] Michaela: Mm-hmm. You saw that that was there. That's not just a number floating on a screen, you know?
and I think the other hard thing to remember is that. as artists, even as much as we try to like stay grounded in that, the world does not revolve around us, can think like, oh my God, I had this fan who was like a super fan last time I was putting out music. They were always commenting or they were always at every show. But I haven't seen them this time around and where are they? I guess they don't like my stuff. And what can be really happening is people are living their lives. It might not be a direct reflection on their relationship to your art. They might not even be aware of your art the next time around
[00:11:05] Lera: Yeah.
[00:11:06] Michaela: stuff is going on or they've gotten off the internet or they, had a life change.
Like There's all this context that I think we can sometimes forget because we care so much about the work that we're making. But then, because also our ability to survive financially is so dependent on that relationship that we can kind of put a hyper focus on it.
[00:11:30] Aaron: I think we also have to note that like, yeah, they might be living their life or off the internet, or they might not like it.
Yeah. And that's okay. Like There are very few bands that I love, like every single record that they put out. Yeah. And even so if it is, I love every record they put out. Like a lot of times they put out a new record and I'm like, me. And then like a year later I'm like, oh, I get it. Oh, this is cool.
no matter how much I, I think I'm open minded it's kind of like, in a way, like that true detective thing where it's like, oh, I love this record and it like resonates with me for a certain thing. And so I think just subliminally as a human being and like monkey brain, I'm like, oh, I want that feeling again.
[00:12:03] Lera: I get people saying that sort of thing all the time like, what are you gonna do more music like that? And I'm like, there is more music like that. You just gotta dig a little bit, you know? that's part of me. Sure it wasn't in a TV show and it's not gonna be exactly like that, but also, I have all this other stuff and like I appreciate that people come to me wanting more of a thing that I have done, but hopefully by now it's become pretty clear to any fans who've been following my music for any length of time that I rarely.
Repeat, I believe in reinventing, moving forward, progressing, looking for new ideas, new approaches, new feelings to express new stories. know some artists like they find their thing that works and they just do that, and that good for them. That just doesn't satisfy me creatively.
And that's my main goal. And I think that in the past I've also been more concerned with what people thought with their reactions to new music. And am I gonna keep the fans that I got? But I just can't live that way. I can't care. it totally destroys the art, it ruins it, it ruins your ability to be free within your art form
[00:13:16] Aaron: Yeah, exactly. I think art and creativity is a living, breathing thing unto itself. if you're trying to keep doing the same thing, it's like Frank Zappa called it Death by Nostalgia.
[00:13:26] Lera: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:26] Aaron: pretty much that. Like if you keep brewing the same teabag over and over, eventually it's just gonna be like bitter
[00:13:30] Lera: Flavorless. Yeah.
[00:13:32] Aaron: exactly.
[00:13:32] Michaela: I'm curious, can you talk, I mean, we jumped right into this we usually will kind of like start with a, a question. I love it, but we jumped right in. So I kind of wanna back up because we always kind of, start the episode just asking a, how are you?
And where are you creatively? within that. I know you're putting out a record and touring again, after a couple of years of not touring. So let's just start with how are you?
[00:13:58] Lera: I think the general answer is, I am well, I am happy. I am feeling fulfilled and satisfied. but I'm also fucking mess. Because, Because yes. I have a record coming out in two weeks. We're going on tour, we're doing international tour, domestic tour. I'm doing everything. I'm fulfilling all the pre-orders.
I am planning the whole tour, all of the travel, the hotel rooms, advancing all the shows, doing the promo, the social media. It just goes and goes and goes. And I feel like I have 400 irons and a fire that's like, kind of outta control, you know?
[00:14:39] Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:14:40] Lera: It's funny that way. It's like when nothing's happening, you dream of the days where you, couldn't get your head straight.
There's so much going on. But then when you're in the thick of this, you dream of oh, it'd be so nice if I could just tend to my garden. You know,
[00:14:54] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:14:55] Lera: like, I don't know, paint that patch of the wall that been needing paint for three months.
[00:15:00] Aaron: Yeah. And it's like, it is the trappings of releasing a record where you can't, like even the two out,
[00:15:05] Lera: You can't. No. It's all or nothing.
[00:15:07] Aaron: exactly, it's
[00:15:08] Lera: Yeah.
[00:15:08] Michaela: and there's a lot of tedium. Even like you have other people to share in the work, you're still having to like double check and be on top
[00:15:18] Lera: Yeah.
[00:15:18] Michaela: everything. And so it's just sometimes I think it's hard to recognize how far away you get from the art itself when you're in this mode. and having to remember like, there's a reason I'm doing all this.
[00:15:32] Lera: modes is, I, I really think about it that way too. I've done songwriting camps, as an instructor before and they're, they're like, are you just always writing? Constantly writing? And no,
[00:15:42] Michaela: No.
[00:15:43] Lera: I'm either in business mode or I'm in creative mode. And unfortunately, creative mode is only like five to 10% of the you know? But yes. someone was like, what do you wish you had more time for? I was like, making music. I wish I had more time to write music in your record music.
when I got into this business, I did not. Expect that I would spend eight hours a day on a laptop
[00:16:05] Michaela: I know.
[00:16:06] Lera: typing shit and looking at ads and all the things that we have to do.
But,
[00:16:10] Michaela: And editing
[00:16:11] Lera: um, yeah, I'm glad that I still, have the opportunity to make music if this has become a necessary part of it
For this record cycle. for the first time in my life, I'm trying to embrace social media promotion and have a presence there.
And, it is not easy to keep up the pace and keep the content coming and while also juggling all of the other shit that's going on behind the scenes.
And also, oh, I have a family. You know, I know you guys can relate.
[00:16:41] Michaela: Yeah, if our eyes look tired,
[00:16:44] Lera: Yeah.
[00:16:45] Michaela: it's been a lot. That's because
[00:16:46] Lera: I can't finish a sentence, uh, no.
[00:16:49] Aaron: yeah.
[00:16:50] Lera: I feel like the, the conversation started that way. I was like, my brain just fritzed Oh gosh. I'm sorry. That's so hard. I,
[00:16:56] Aaron: entire approach to the first five minutes of this conversation was like, okay, Mikala, you talk, follow you, but this, uh, this is, we're coming, we're coming back
[00:17:04] Michaela: online.
[00:17:05] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:17:05] Aaron: you said stepping back into like being on social media and having a presence there like that is its own full-time job
to like do it.
[00:17:13] Lera: yeah,
[00:17:13] Aaron: Like it is
[00:17:14] Lera: yeah.
[00:17:14] Aaron: career that you can have
[00:17:16] Lera: the thing that's held me back from pushing into that territory more in the past and continues to hold me back in some ways is that I just have a higher standard. For quality. I think, I don't enjoy doing selfie videos with my phone and putting it on the internet.
Like, it sounds bad, it looks bad. It can be so much better. And I think that people enjoy that because they feel like it's more authentic
[00:17:42] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:43] Lera: I'm willing to engage in that way and, demonstrate for people in the simplest way. Like, here's me singing and playing my guitar. Okay,
[00:17:52] Michaela: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:17:53] Lera: happy.
But I would definitely prefer to go into the studio and do a proper audio recording and a proper video and have it edited beautifully, you know, because I think we have a responsibility to put good quality art into the world.
Not garbage. the internet is just bogged down by like pollution, do we need to have as much content as we have? Could we pull back and do less, but do better?
[00:18:19] Aaron: exactly. I feel the same way because it's like the way that I'm able to and I admittedly like really don't, but the way that I'm able to engage with social media in a way that makes me feel good is to lean into like, the creativity of creating things to put on social media.
You know? Which to me there's a quality to that. And especially, I don't release my own records, but like, you're talking about putting out a record and a body of art like that, like you're talking about, like. Two years plus of work that went into this thing that like, you're supposed to like, talk into your phone, like you're on FaceTime and like put it on the internet to like
[00:18:53] Lera: Yeah.
[00:18:53] Aaron: It, it's, doesn't equate,
[00:18:55] Michaela: my challenge with social media is that I ping pong all the time where I'm like, this is such an incredible tool that we get to connect with people all over the world and have community and, communicate and it drives business. And then the next day I'm like, I have a deep soul conflict that I'm just like, what are we doing living in this space and making stupid videos?
it's not a place that creativity or innovation like influencers. everybody hops on trends. So it's like very much in conflict with wanting, yeah, with wanting to be creative. It doesn't reward that.
[00:19:37] Lera: I find it repulsive. the online trends. I'm just like, oh, here we go again.
[00:19:42] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:19:43] Lera: And the idea of participating in that,
[00:19:46] Michaela: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:19:47] Lera: But I'll say, my around has been music videos,
Them as cheaply as I can. and that is a creative endeavor, like you were saying.
and I do derive some satisfaction and inspiration from that process,
[00:20:03] Aaron: are you talking like full length music videos?
[00:20:06] Lera: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:06] Michaela: Nice. Yeah.
[00:20:07] Lera: I mean, the sitting in the, living room with your iPhone playing a song I don't really enjoy that. I mean.
[00:20:14] Michaela: I get it. I hate it.
[00:20:16] Lera: funny enough, it's like the only time I sit and play guitar and sing, when I feel like I have to do it for the internet, because otherwise I'm like on my laptop doing all this other work. Corby Lanker said recently, and I really like this, he was like, and I'm not quoting him verbatim, but he was like, I spend so much time talking about the thing that I do, that I don't get to do the thing that I do.
I was like, ah, it's so true. I saw an interview magazine, post recently with a porn star, I can't remember her name. She was complaining about how all she ever does is like social media and she just wants to have sex. And I was like,
[00:20:49] Michaela: Oh my God.
[00:20:51] Lera: I, I know. I feel the same way. I just wanna do music. Sex is cool, but
[00:20:56] Michaela: Amazing. Wow. How far
[00:20:59] Lera: can we just get back to fucking, I mean, sorry, is this for kids?
[00:21:05] Aaron: no. Not in the slightest.
[00:21:08] Michaela: Oh my God, that's amazing. I just wanna share some background comfortable as you are to talk about this. We connected because a few years ago we were on the same festival in Sweden, Canceled and bankrupt via,
[00:21:21] Aaron: via social media. Yeah. Speaking of it just posted on
[00:21:23] Michaela: social media and a bunch of us were all going over to tour and that was our anchor. And then we were all left with no compensation and scrambling to figure out how to financially survive and put these tours together.
And I DMed you on Instagram because I was like, oh, she's in the same boat also because I knew you had a young child, which we had a young child and we had some crossover with some business people that we had been working with that I was struggling with and was super curious if you were too. And I bring that to light just because we connected in Commiseration and then got together and talked about what the fuck of being. A touring musician, but also add in motherhood and just the shittiness that we both experienced and from afar to me it looks like you've gone through a process of being like, yeah, that shit is fucked up. I'm gonna keep going no matter what, and now it feels like I'm witnessing, like a re-energizing of your passion for making music and doing it your own way. Is that a true outside assessment?
[00:22:32] Lera: Nailed it. You nailed it. Yes.
[00:22:36] Michaela: elabor elaborate? what have you done to help yourself through that process to get to this place?
[00:22:42] Lera: Well, I quit first. That's where I started. I hit rock bottom and felt like, what am I doing out here? Wasting time, not making any money, spending time away from my family, asking my in-laws to come and help take care of my child while I'm just gallivanting around spinning my wheels. You know, it just felt so irresponsible and selfish.
and also I just feel so disheartened, you know, I've been. And working in this industry for 20 years, And, just to think that you could work and work and work and put everything into something and still not be able to survive. It's just like, this doesn't add up, you know, it's time for me to step away and figure out something else.
So I did that and I, worked with, therapist to separate myself from my career and grieve essentially the, the loss of a career you know, a life that was like what I'd always pictured, what I've always wanted. it wasn't that I was stepping away 'cause I no longer felt inspiration or motivation.
I felt like the circumstances. Were forcing me to do. So I felt like the industry was forcing me to do so. People within the industry, not willing to work to support a mother, a middle aged woman, et cetera. and so I spent, I don't know, a year just searching for my new meaning and like where I would fit, what I would do with my life.
And, I mean, I got ZipRecruiter, shit like that. I was like, alright, look for a job. and that was a massive failure. It was like, okay, I could go work in retail for $15 an hour. I, you know, will have to spend nine hours away from home and after taxes, I'll make like $45.
Like, no, that's not gonna work.
[00:24:41] Aaron: Mm-hmm. Yep.
[00:24:42] Lera: consideration was, real estate, like most, retired musicians. but what happened was I went from rock bottom to rockier bottom I lost my sense of purpose. And, it became difficult for me to even be in the same room with an instrument with a guitar.
Like I got all the guitars out of the house. I moved all of my stage clothes out of my closet and into storage. Like, I couldn't look at any of it. It was very strange. you know, my husband is a session guitarist, producer, songwriter, he's in high demand. And that was also a really tough dynamic to navigate.
Seeing him go off to work every day. Oh, I'm working with Post Malone a day, or Gwen Stefani, or, you know, you name it. or even just people that are not on that level of super stardom but are doing it, I felt jealousy and insecurity, not of his success, but of just like, why can't I still do this thing that I love so much?
I want to do it.
And I remember talking to my friend Daniel Tash, and youhe came to my birthday dinner and afterwards. Everybody was a little toasty. We came back to our house and we started playing some songs, and that was like the first musical experience I had had in a while, and it was so fun.
And I said, Daniel, how do you keep, going? I mean, obviously success begets success. The more success you have, the more confidence you have, the more you're able to continue on. But I'd also come up against this sort of existential crisis within creating music, which was why do I deserve the platform?
What do I have to say that's so important that it needs to be recorded with multiple instruments, mixed, mastered, packaged, and put out into the world. that really shut me down. And I remember talking to Daniel about that that night and he was like, well, doesn't stop anybody else, so you might as well.
I was like, it's so simple.
[00:26:46] Aaron: Yeah,
[00:26:47] Lera: It's so true. He's like, look at all the garbage people put out in the world. You might as well put something good out.
And that unlocked it for me. And the next day I wrote Cherry Tree, which would become the first single of the upcoming record.
and I decided, you know what?
I'm just gonna make this record because I want to, I had fired my whole team, you know, I really quit. shut it all down. and luckily, Todd, my husband. Being the producer, engineer, multi-instrumentalist. He is. We have a studio, we have that resource. We could go and make the record ourselves.
And I didn't need any kind of investment or approval or anything like that from the business side. and so that's what we did. And it took a long time to make the record because we would work on it maybe one day a month, you know, when he wasn't booked on a session or something. When he, when he wasn't booked on a pain gig, then we would work together in making this record.
I don't know if I answered any questions or just made new ones, but,
[00:27:47] Michaela: Yes.
Both.
[00:27:48] Aaron: Yeah. I was flipping through the Rolodex of like, well, which, question do I wanna ask? So I guess just like for context, like. long did you quit for? the timeframe
[00:27:56] Lera: my last tour was in Europe. In 2023, my last record came out in 2022. So after doing that tour in Europe, the one where we connected about the canceled festivals, I think I had lost like $13,000 or something in that tour,
Which is like small potatoes. Apparently when you don't have much to lose, you know, that's a big deal.
And yeah,
[00:28:21] Aaron: then when, when you kind of that spark again? After talking with Daniel?
[00:28:25] Lera: Yeah. And just after slowly realizing that gives you satisfaction in life, not necessarily happiness, it's make, I think happiness is an overused word, but
we all need to have a sense of purpose and.
I wish it were the case for me that being a stay at home mom and a wife would give me that sense of purpose.
'cause I have that opportunity. But it gives me some purpose, but it's not entirely fulfilling. 'cause I'm a creative person and I need, I need that outlet.
[00:28:52] Aaron: what I'm hearing, and I'm wondering if it's accurate, is that like you're, almost like internal point of view kind of shifted a little bit from being like, this is what I do to, I need to do this to be human.
[00:29:03] Lera: it absolutely did shift and I mean, becoming a mother. and I'm sure that you can both relate as parents going through that with your first child. It was such a monumental paradigm shift, with who you are and, what you are meant to do, what you get to do or who's in charge, so I went through that and I mean, that was, that was very difficult. But then there was the next layer, ' cause I did continue on in my broken way through the pandemic and through new motherhood. I did continue touring and, and releasing records, but yes, yet another layer that I needed to peel back, which was really removing my essential self from myself as an artist,
which is a paradigm in itself because I feel like I'm in touch.
Most with my essential self, when I'm on stage performing or when I'm in the studio recording,
That is the life giving thing That is what fills me, and yet that's not who I am, Doing that is not what gives me value as a person.
[00:30:07] Michaela: Mm-hmm. And these things seem so obvious when they're stated out loud, but it takes repeated failure in a lot of work to truly grasp that and see where the line is.
[00:30:18] Lera: And be able to create that boundary for yourself.
[00:30:21] Aaron: Absolutely. From what I've experienced with myself and from what I've gathered in all these conversations we've had here, is that like, it is like a simple concept in your mind, but it's a pretty complex concept in your heart to
[00:30:32] Lera: Yeah.
[00:30:32] Aaron: feel that and live that. And in my external judgment or observation, like really see that with people like yourself or like Mikayla, where like. you perform under your name, become like this business, this public entity that is your name, and separating those two things, you be fully aware that like, maybe this is a bias, but like people that perform under a band name or even just like a, moniker, just that simple thing of a, of a name to
[00:30:57] Lera: One layer of protection.
[00:30:58] Aaron: Yeah, exactly.
You know, it's like this is this thing and then I step back and I'm this person,
[00:31:02] Lera: Those people are smarter than me.
[00:31:05] Michaela: it feels so personal. Even like the few times in my life that I've, I've never been in a band, but when I've different projects I've been a part of, it felt so much easier to. talk about it or promote it or share excitement about it or let it roll off my shoulders if somebody who wasn't interested or didn't like it versus writing and recording and performing songs that make that are under my name.
It's my voice, nobody else. It's so challenging to not take everything so personally, like somebody not wanting to play my record will immediately feel like a very, not so much anymore now that I'm like so many years into this, but it's been a process to try and help detangle that where it's like they're not telling me that I'm bad, feels so deeply personal.
Like it, such a deep reflection. Of who I am and are therefore a rejection. And I've, had to learn to separate that. And listening to you talk about your experience the last few years was really comforting to me because it feels so similar to what has happened in my life. And it's like equally comforting as it is infuriating because as I've talked about my experience more out to you and us, like getting together and sharing our experiences.
So many other women in this business that I've, that reached out to. Because when I get hurt or upset by something, I start like obsessing and I can't stop talking about it. And then I also start to see the injustice. And then I'm like who else has experienced this? And then I start wanting to like uncover. so the infuriating part is that. I just feel like I look out and see, the music industry is not fair. Of course, everybody has their challenges and hardship, but I personally see over and over and over again now as I've had done so much digging and conversing so many women who are insanely talented, just like being brutalized in this career.
Mm-hmm. when I talk about motherhood, I've had different people be like, I had someone on Facebook, some old guy reach out to me and be like, I really struggled when I became a dad with like wanting to do what I wanted to do, but fatherhood keeping me.
And I was like, no, I'm not struggling with what motherhood requires from me. I'm struggling with, to be honest, the assholes in my industry who make it harder for me to continue to do my job because they've changed. The way that they treat me.
[00:33:43] Lera: They decide that you are less available than he wants work,
[00:33:47] Michaela: Yes. Mm-hmm. Exactly.
[00:33:48] Lera: not you.
[00:33:49] Michaela: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:33:50] Lera: Yes, was a moment I think Leo was about.
just over a year old. we struggled with, with breastfeeding because he had lip and tongue ties. And for anyone listening who doesn't understand or hasn't had that experience, when the baby has the lip and tongue ties that they have a, a really tough time latching. It can be really painful.
I mean, that's a whole other rabbit hole. Like the fact that nobody tells you about that and that you just assume going into it as a woman, that it's gonna be painful because being a woman is painful and, you know, women are neglected in medicine. But, We finally figured out that he had those ties and I mean, I had so like mastitis and when he would latch, I would just cry.
it was so painful and I thought, this is just the way it's, but he got that surgery and immediately, it was like the best thing. I was finally able to have those. Beautiful moments that you hear about with breastfeeding that you're really connecting to the baby. The oxytocin is, the flow is open and it's, such a nice experience and then you need to do this opening tour.
It's 30 shows and the money's low but you have to do it. And I remember saying, I don't want to do that tour. I don't think that's good for my career. I've done plenty of opening slots. It doesn't help. I mean, if you are just starting, it's helpful. But point that I was at in my career at that time, that doesn't help.
You have to do your own shows. You have to build your own followings, you need your own fans. It doesn't convert. and I insisted on that and I remember one of them said. Well, you have to do it because we all want you to do it, if you feel what I mean. you know, read between the lines, like, we're not gonna work with you anymore if you don't do this.
Right. So I did it, so ended breastfeeding with my baby right? When it was like, fulfilling I could cry thinking about that,
and I cannot believe I allowed them to take that from me.
And I went and did that tour and, you know, lost money and anyway, I'm down a rabbit hole now. But, you know, I think going through all of that stuff, what another major takeaway for me is really looking at shame and what does it come from and why are we.
Afraid of it.
I have always had this deep fear of failure. I think, you know, just seeing like my parents' path and how much they struggled to survive. And my father died when I was young, but he struggled a lot with addiction and with all kinds of things. And I just always felt like I gotta make something of myself.
I have to succeed. I can't go the direction that he did. I, I think that was tied to like this very strong drive and motivation to be successful in music, to make money, to make it a sustainable career. So it was difficult for me to admit to myself and admit, especially to my fans, that I was failing.
and I finally have been able to sit with that. And again, because I'm able to separate myself from what I do, I don't feel shame in saying that. I think so many people fake it till they make it, you know? And maybe that works, but also it's at the detriment of other people. I feel a responsibility now to tell the truth about the industry and what's happening and what's not happening, so that other people who are in the same boat have some connection to reality.
it's really fucking hard. It's hard at, all levels, but especially the mid level and like getting to the mid level and breaking through that. Like I feel like, you know, one in a hundred chances, maybe less
[00:37:35] Aaron: I have to say like, a thank you for being so vulnerable and so open with that first and foremost. And you know, that idea of like, I'm failing because x, y, Z isn't happening is, so pervasive with all of us and everything that we do. just on this last episode we, had this guy Yancy Strickler on, he's, helped found Kickstarter and he basically has all of these other
[00:37:57] Michaela: creative independent,
[00:37:58] Aaron: the creative independent. And he's, started all these other companies that are essentially like to help artists make this sustainable.
And his whole thing is like, don't have the tools that are available to any other small business be able to access capitalism, to be able to grow, to be able to like monetize what we do. And so in processing our conversation with him like, you didn't fail because of you, you failed because there's no tools available to us. at the same level there is for like the florist down the street or like any other business, you know, there's no support, there's no infrastructure and it's almost, you know, I admittedly have a lot of anger about it. It's just like, you know, the whole industry seems to be set up that like all failure is on us and all success is the 65-year-old white dude in the office that owns your masters, that like, is doing the same thing with different artists that they've done for 20 years and it just happens to work, but they don't care 'cause like, whatever.
[00:38:50] Michaela: I wanted to cry listening to you talk about that experience 'cause it's like cool, easy for you to say you're sitting in your office, in your home, sending emails and you're not putting your body on the line. And you all get to have families
all get to be home with your kids. And I think it we're so deeply cro Oh my God. Programmed to think that the response then is, well then you're not deserving of this career. This is the career. Like Go out there and suffer until. You're not suffering, otherwise, you're not cut out for this. So that we are coming from a place of, we also talked to Yancy about this, this like the powerlessness that we feel mm-hmm. of how powerless you felt in that moment, which
[00:39:38] Lera: And then
[00:39:38] Michaela: decision.
[00:39:39] Lera: couple that with being a woman,
[00:39:41] Michaela: Uhhuh,
[00:39:42] Lera: an aging woman, and a mother. And when you have men in the industry saying, you don't do what we want you to do, then we're fucking done with you.
[00:39:52] Michaela: Yep.
[00:39:52] Lera: You can't help but think I won't find another manager if they drop me, no one's gonna wanna work with me.
I, an old lady, now look at me, I'm worthless. that was the message that was received.
[00:40:04] Michaela: I relate to all of this because in my experience with my booking agent, I remember like when the pandemic hit and like shows were coming back, he was like kind and like, so when things start opening up, I will present you with opportunities.
It's totally on you to decide whether or not you feel comfortable taking them. This is pre-pregnancy, very much like your safety. there's no pressure for you to take shows, anything. I was like, wow, okay, great. He's like, this is your career path. We're in this together for the long haul. When I sign an artist, I sign them for life.
Few months later, I tell him I'm pregnant. the response is, Ugh. There goes the summer and like so much shaming and like 20 minutes being talked down to by this man. me how hard it would be and how much he would worry about me and my baby out there. And I've gone through a rollercoaster of rehashing that experience and feeling like I got punched in the gut in that moment and being like, fear immediately.
Like, Oh my God, I'm gonna lose this relationship. I'm not gonna be able to play shows anymore. And then after thoughts of like, I don't feel shame anymore to admit that. Like I had moments where I was like, if only I had waited to have a baby, should have waited longer till my, career was at a better place to then anger of fuck that guy. I wish in the moment I had said, this is none of your business besides booking me shows and me letting you know if I can be there or not. And I've struggled with that aspect more of I wish I had been stronger. And I talked to Mary Gaer about this, and Mary Gaer was like, listen, no that's like a David and Goliath story, like when you are a woman, we feel old because we're in our late thirties, early forties, but she's like, you're, a young woman going up against these men who have so much more power and access and experience.
you cannot feel bad about yourself. That you weren't able to stand up in that moment and make a different decision or a different response. And that helped me. But what I came away from that conversation with is, okay, but what can we do with this information share it with others, the hope is that other people, especially women, can hear it and be like, okay, maybe I do have a different choice.
Maybe this stuff is coming to light. Maybe also men in those positions of power will hear it enough hopefully not do it anymore. But I don't know if that will ever happen,
[00:42:29] Lera: Well, I think that will happen. I mean, they're aging out too, and the men that are moving up in the world are younger and their wives are more outspoken and they're more aware. And I think the world is changing for the better in that way. Unless the powers that be in America remain,
[00:42:46] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:42:47] Lera: who knows what's gonna happen.
But, um, I, I feel the same as you. Like I feel regret that I didn't stand up to them more in those moments. And again, it was just me thinking that. That would be the end of my career. And I've worked so hard and like you shouldn't have to make that kind of choice. That's just not fair.
It's just wrong. And I felt this need to like prove myself to them. Like I can still work, I'm still good, I'm still viable, I've never been stronger, smarter, more confident, better at writing songs and performing than I am now.
So it's their loss. And actually it's been my game because getting rid of all of those people, I call all the shots now and I don't feel like I have to do anything that I don't want to do to appease other people.
[00:43:39] Aaron: Yeah. I mean, Just as like as the observer here, if there was a self-employed mother that was coming up to me being like, I wanna work, let's do this. mean, I would not only get the fuck outta the way, but like get behind her and be like, cool, where are we going?
[00:43:51] Lera: right? Because moms know what the fuck is up.
[00:43:53] Aaron: dude, for real?
[00:43:54] Lera: Moms are bad AEs.
[00:43:56] Aaron: And they're fucking tough and
[00:43:57] Lera: When I think about myself before becoming a mom, I'm like, oh, she didn't know very much. You know, poor girl. You know, not that I look at women who aren't mothers that way, but just the amount that I've learned and grown through that process is so immense.
I feel bad for my friends that did have kids, you know, that would just, stomach me, previously,
[00:44:20] Michaela: I talk about that all the time. I've literally apologized to my friends who became mothers before me of like things that I said to them, and
[00:44:28] Lera: I didn't know. I'm
[00:44:30] Michaela: yeah. But also, moms are so well equipped now at like multitasking, at time management of doing things while completely overstimulated and distracted, and also enduring great physical pain and distress,
[00:44:48] Lera: yes, yes. And sleep deprivation.
[00:44:50] Michaela: yeah, it doesn't end with childbirth. Like my body is wrecked from these children on me all the time.
[00:44:56] Lera: yes. I know. So true.
[00:44:58] Aaron: I mean, what goes through my head and having these conversations and hearing and experiencing by proximity, like these responses of these men in the industry. It's you, like you said, Larry, it goes into like, what is America right now?
Because what I see is like this almost curl back where you have these men that like begin to have this inkling of an understanding of like, this is hard. they have a lot on their plate. I want to help. So you almost get this self self-sabotaging helpfulness. Like, Oh, I wanna help them.
Like, no, no, No, it's okay. Like you don't tour, you don't have to work. Rather than like trusting the woman and believing the woman and backing the woman, it's the weird like kind of brackish water of like really toxic masculinity and being evolved where like feel like you're being helpful, but you're still not listening
[00:45:42] Lera: Right.
[00:45:42] Michaela: oh, don't worry about working.
'cause I think somehow you don't need to work and you could, don't have to tour. No, but
[00:45:48] Aaron: but I'm being open and
[00:45:50] Lera: Yeah.
[00:45:50] Aaron: you, you poor thing. And it's like, no,
[00:45:52] Lera: No, the conversation should be, what do you want to do? What do you feel like you can handle? How can I help you get there?
For both people in a marriage?
[00:46:03] Michaela: yeah.
[00:46:03] Lera: but women need that more. time. Yeah.
[00:46:06] Michaela: I will shout out my manager because he is a man and he's been with me for a long time and his response was the response that you want when you share in business that you were having a baby. He said, that is amazing. The right time for you to have a baby is whenever you and your partner think that you wanna have a baby and I will support and have you working as much or as little as you want to be. I was like, thank you dude. I also wanna say I am so excited and emboldened to see so many female musicians becoming mothers these days and very outwardly sharing it because that's a whole other thing of let's keep it hidden, but with the mother show that you were a part of with Jillian Jacqueline and Kaitlyn Smith.
And it just feels like there's a growing number of really incredible women becoming mothers and still showing that fully and being like, But I also am continuing on my career path and trying to build the network and support for each other to move outside of the, confines of feeling like the gatekeepers that haven't historically supported, that are not the end all, be all for opportunity.
[00:47:14] Lera: I remember when I found out I was pregnant, it was a total surprise and I won't go down the rabbit hole. But, long story short, I have been post menopause since I was like 37 or something.
when I got pregnant, I was like, what? I had a record done and a record slated for release and a tour and.
And I had just signed with new management and I was so afraid to tell them two men, both nice guys, but you know, I was like they're gonna be devastated by this news. But why did I already have that notion and why that it was just like the worst thing the worst news I could deliver.
And they, you know, were supportive. And then the pandemic happened like two months after I found out I was pregnant. So it didn't matter anyway. But I don't know if I was nauseous because of pregnancy or just because of the anxiety of having to tell music business people that I was pregnant, you I think it was the latter, honestly.
[00:48:09] Michaela: Yeah. Which again, my anger is like, it robs us of what is already a super vulnerable joyful, but also scary experience, like the mix of emotions that, in my experience was finding out I was pregnant even when it was planned was elation and also extreme fear. I think I cried the whole first weekend because I was convinced that my, the
[00:48:33] Aaron: first words you, said when the stick showed the thing.
Literally the first words. Oh, fuck.
[00:48:37] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:48:39] Lera: I think those, I think those might have been my words too.
[00:48:41] Aaron: Yeah,
[00:48:42] Michaela: yeah.
[00:48:43] Lera: Oh, no.
[00:48:45] Michaela: a lot of my worst fears honestly came true and Now I'm more mad and that's why I wanna talk about this stuff, to help others. Don't let these fuckers take away our experience as mothers. Like, I cannot believe that. I felt like I should have changed my family's timeline because some man told me it would be too hard for me.
[00:49:12] Lera: Because it would be inconvenient for him. Yeah.
it's a complex conversation talking to young women in the music industry who are considering becoming a mother. I think that it's also dangerous to say you can do it. It's no big deal. Don't let anybody stop you. young women.
Meet an accurate depiction of the situation. Yes, you were gonna face challenges with music business people. You're also gonna face challenges with just being physically, absent from your family. You know, if you find a way, like I'm fortunate to have help from my mom and from Todd's mom, you know, take looking after our son while we, tour together.
even if you're fortunate to have that, it comes at a cost, know?
[00:49:57] Michaela: percent.
[00:49:58] Lera: I can't tour the way that I used to or the way that I want to all the time because, It's not good for any of us. and I do also think that there are some biological obligations, that mothers have.
When babies are young that fathers don't have, obviously there's breastfeeding, but when kids are young, I, think that they just really need to be close to mom regularly, you know? So I'm not saying that it's not possible, and I'm not saying that your child can't, grow up to be a healthy individual.
Having had some time away but on the flip side of that is if I'm always with my child and I never get to find my, satisfaction and fulfillment, I'm not gonna be a good mother. I might be there all the time, but I'm gonna be empty inside.
And that's not good either. So, it's different situation for everyone and it takes work and trial and error and a little bit of pain to find the right balance, and like you were saying, like we've been saying, becoming a mother does not disable you. If anything, it enables you in spades
to be better at your job.
[00:51:03] Michaela: Yeah. And no shit. It's gonna be harder to be self-employed and have a career and have children. That was my feeling when I was told that but key is one, why is hard, bad anything worth creating, doing has an element of challenge and hardship. Being a parent, like a mother or a father, having a career, it's gonna cost more.
It's gonna be harder to schedule things. You have so many other commitments. It's a hundred percent harder for us to do the jobs that we've had with children, but. It's also to me, incredibly more fulfilling, richer, more inspiring at times. Interesting. Like There's so many other things. And so yeah, my message to younger women considering it is like, have your eyes wide open.
Know that it will not look the same as pre-children because you are now living with this child outside of you that you love immensely, that you wanna be away from to do the thing you love, but you wanna be with you, feel guilty, all of those different things. And also make sure you're surrounded by people who wanna do what they can to help you
[00:52:14] Lera: if I had heard this conversation before I become a mother, hopefully my takeaways would've been okay. When the time comes for me, I'm gonna have a direct and clear conversation with the people that I work with. I'm going to explain that I want to continue working, I wanna work in this way.
I'm gonna tour, you know, two weekends out of the month. We're gonna do these short runs and we're gonna spread it out over the course of a year, whatever, you know, your plan may be.
But I was just in the dark and so naive and so scared because I hadn't heard people talk about this before yet. I just sort of got steamrolled, So, I think these conversations are so important for ourselves. And for people that are following the same path.
[00:52:58] Aaron: Yeah, a hundred percent. Which, thank you for. on the other end of this conversation with us and sharing your experience with it and what you've learned, and also incredibly rich and valuable.
We do have to wrap up with final question, which is choose your own adventure.
It can be either something that you would tell you that was just getting started like, that you wish you knew then or something that somebody has told you along the way that continues to reverberate and your tank,
[00:53:28] Lera: Well, I guess I would tell younger me sort of what I just said, have boundaries and set them clearly and don't let people push you around. something that someone has told me. I mean, I just keep going back to, to that conversation with Daniel Tash and him just saying everybody else is doing it.
[00:53:44] Aaron: Yeah,
[00:53:45] Lera: know, like,
[00:53:46] Aaron: for sure.
[00:53:46] Lera: don't let it stop you.
[00:53:48] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:53:49] Lera: It really removes the pressure, you know,
[00:53:51] Aaron: That's exactly what I was thinking. It's
[00:53:53] Lera: for me the most important thing at this point is to enjoy myself. ' for all we know, we just have this one chance this experience. So we might as well make it fun.
so, like everything that we are planning for touring and making the record and, you know, if I'm not enjoying it, I gotta cut it out. It's gotta go.
[00:54:11] Michaela: I love that.
[00:54:12] Aaron: Well, Lara, thank you again for
[00:54:14] Lera: Thank you guys.
[00:54:15] Aaron: sit and chat with us.
[00:54:17] Lera: It's really fun.
[00:54:18] Michaela: Thank you. Thank you.
Bye Lyra. Yeah.
[00:54:20] Lera: Bye.