Tami Neilson is a New Zealand-based artist who grew up in a family band, before releasing her own music independently - which has garnered acclaimed by Rolling Stone, No Depression, Mojo, and the Guardian, featured duets with Willie Nelson (and tours with him and Dylan), as well as a New Zealand Music Award for Producer of the Year (one of just 3 women to ever win the award, in any category). We have a wide-ranging, and deeply vulnerable conversation about brain injuries and health scares, the astounding resilience of artists, finding your champions, gate keepers, bucking stereotypes, and a whole lot more.
Tami Neilson is a New Zealand-based artist who grew up in a family band, before releasing her own music independently - which has garnered acclaimed by Rolling Stone, No Depression, Mojo, and the Guardian, featured duets with Willie Nelson (and tours with him and Dylan), as well as a New Zealand Music Award for Producer of the Year (one of just 3 women to ever win the award, in any category). We have a wide-ranging, and deeply vulnerable conversation about brain injuries and health scares, the astounding resilience of artists, finding your champions, gate keepers, bucking stereotypes, and a whole lot more.
Get more access and support this show by subscribing to our Patreon, right here.
Links:
Click here to watch this conversation on YouTube.
Social Media:
All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
121 Tami Nielson
[00:00:00] Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 121, and this week we're featuring our conversation with Tammy Nielsen.
Aaron: Yeah, Tammy Nielsen. Has released multiple records all on her own. some of them including the 2022 release features duets with Willie Nelson of whom she toured with earlier this year as part of his outlaw tour, which as she said also included a little known artist named Bob Dylan.
she's been acclaimed by Rolling Stone Mojo, no Depression Guardian. She's one of three women only to win Producer of the year in, New Zealand, where she Has called home for the last many years. And as she says many times throughout this episode, she is a [00:01:00] 48-year-old plus size woman, mother of two living at the bottom of the world, which is not the really stereotypical definition of a rising star in the country slash Americano scene, but nonetheless, that she is.
Michaela: Yeah, and we always enter these conversations with a kind of general outline or plan of how we think it's going to go, and then it goes where it goes, depending on each guest's willingness and openness to share. And Tammy was very open, so as you'll hear this. opens and starts in a very emotional place.
I think this is probably the third or fourth episode that I've just completely cried, not just misty eyed. And in that topic we talk about surrender holding immense joy and grief. And she talks about how every big moment we underestimate, depth of what's happening behind the scenes for people.
And we really get to dive deep into industry stereotypes and how limiting they can be and really expanding our own definition of success that might not align with what the industry tells us as [00:02:00] successful.
Aaron: And as always, there are topics in our conversation that we touch on or had planned to touch on that come as direct suggestions from and as always our shows are supported by our let's see.
And there's one thing that we touch on in our conversations about industry is there's a difference between industry and community, and really making a differentiation between those two things. And that's because us as artists are supported by our community and us as a show are also supported by our community.
And that is located over on Patreon. There are. Lots of things coming and going over there all the time. But the root of all of it is that you get the immense moral satisfaction of financially supporting the production of our show in the only way we make available. it gives you insider access to our future guests.
It gives you insider access to us to ask questions to a community of other creatives and musicians. And if any of that sounds intriguing to you, there is a link below in our show notes.
Michaela: And if you're a visual person, this conversation as well as all of our past ones are available up on YouTube. And without further ado, here is our conversation with Tammy Nielsen.
I. are you in Europe right now?
Tami: No, at the moment I'm in Toronto.
Michaela: Oh, okay. Okay. Okay.
Tami: Yeah. Heading to New Zealand day after tomorrow.
Michaela: Oh my gosh. And were you just in Europe? I feel like when I was talking to Angie, we were like going through all this different scheduling stuff.
Tami: I've been in all different continents since then. So I was in Europe, I think, when you guys were figuring things out and then came straight to the states and just finished day before yesterday touring. Uh, the states with Willie. And, um, some unknown guy named Bob Dylan, and
Michaela: See, is he
Aaron: a new guy? Spotify hasn't pushed his music
Tami: not really, I, I was just trying to give him a platform, you know, I,
Aaron: Yeah, that's nice of you.
Tami: give him a shot,
Aaron: Maybe you guys can collab on a song and it'll, you know, really open him up to new listeners.
Michaela: Yeah. Oh, sorry.
Aaron: did I see correctly that Cy, when Stanley was playing with you?
Tami: Do you know Cy?
Aaron: Yeah, he's an old buddy of ours.
Tami: cool.
Aaron: Do you know him From the States or from New Zealand.
Tami: New Zealand?
Aaron: Oh, cool. So he is an old buddy of
Tami: Yeah. Well, we did some shows together. Like when I first moved to New Zealand, there was kind of an, an overlap of an, a couple years, that he was there before he went to the States with Vanessa. yeah, so we did a, I did a tour opening for Tattletale Saints.
Michaela: Oh my gosh.
Tami: Yeah, back in the day.
Michaela: Amazing.
Tami: And now he's my guitar player, which is kind of crazy.
Aaron: They've both played with Mikayla, um, in Mikayla's Band. And, I've played, when I do play shows, drums are my first instrument. So I've played drums with Tattletale Saint a few times and
Tami: Oh, cool.
Aaron: yeah. Great people.
Michaela: Yeah, Vanessa met her partner on a weekend of shows with me, um, and yeah, it's
Tami: Well done.
Aaron: It's, yeah, It's, yeah, it's your fault. She's not here anymore. No.
Michaela: Yeah, we were playing
like, and it was like so funny because it was like not it was like not, it's so funny because that great of a run of shows. some bar gigs brewery gigs. and, and I was like, brewery gigs. Brewery gigs up in Wisconsin, and, and it was not much money. And Vanessa was like, like, hemming and hawing, and she was like, well.
like being very honest, you know? And she was like, but I love you and I love the guys in your band. Like, let's do it. Like I can make it work. And then she like met a guy like and she went on a morning date with him and I was like, give me your location. Like I.
Tami: yeah, like who's this ax murderer from Wisconsin?
Michaela: and you're going on a hike? Like, okay. I'm like, I'm like, I
I
Tami: Whoa. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Michaela: And now, oh my God, 6, 7, 8 years later time. time. Yeah. They're together and yeah.
Tami: That is wild. I bet she's glad she did that to her.
Michaela: Uh, she is, yes. Anyways. Okay, so I am guessing 'cause you read the instructions. We always just, and either way, like to reiterate that the premise of this podcast is we try not to make it just a regular interview format, like promoting your newest album, even though we know you have an album that.
By the time this episode airs has just come out or come out a month or two before, um, yeah.
Aaron: So on that we'll use, you'll hear us like, we'll, we'll talk about the album coming out like in the past. 'cause it's gonna, it'll be a few weeks till this comes out. So,
Michaela: but really what this podcast is about is because we're musicians, we are not journalists we've just wanting, been wanting to bring to light conversations with other musicians.
And artists of what the realities are of building a lifelong career on your art. What is behind the scenes? What is the emotional, physical personal stakes and, um, requirements to not only build a career, but try and stay healthy and sane and stay creative through all of it.
Aaron: Yeah. And just kind of the idea of like, sharing ideas with our community.
The vast majority of our listeners are. Musicians or songwriters or you know, so just like, Hey, this has worked for me. 'Cause like, I dunno for you, but for us, the longer we do this, the more we realize we don't really know anything and there is no necessarily correct answer.
Tami: No cheat code. Damnit.
Aaron: man. When I was, torn the east coast in a, station wagon playing like pizza places, I'm like, I got this figured out. This is, I'll just keep doing this. We're gonna move up to like Chuck E. Cheese and then we're just gonna keep
Tami: pizza I could dream of.
Aaron: That's all you need. Unlimited PVR and so much pepperoni pizza.
Let's go.
Michaela: and also dispelling, trying to dispel myths of that there's this one way to do it in a certain timeframe and a certain age bracket. And we have two young children. We have a five month old and a 4-year-old. And so especially, talking about. As a woman, I know you're a mother, so there's so much we're gonna dig in with you of just like, your story from, from what I've gathered from the internet is not your typical run of the mill how you build a, a music career,
Tami: on paper. I'm so appealing. Yeah. Let's sign up a 48-year-old plus size mother of two who lives at the bottom of the world. That's what we all want.
Michaela: Oh my God. I honestly just got chills when you said that. 'cause I'm like, and meanwhile you're, this, your story is like, and also we'll dig into, you know, the fact that you had some health issues that forced you to slow down and took you on a different path when you thought you were on the upward path of career trajectory.
So yeah, let's, we, we like to start with how are you today? where, And where are you physically and creatively?
Tami: today I am [00:03:00] in Toronto visiting my brother, which is me taking a moment in that crazy world between touring and being home and actually taking a few days of personal time, which is rare.
which you kind of wake up every morning feeling guilty about. But my brother, who is like my closest collaborator, musically just my best friend in life, my oldest friend, you know, can't remember a time without him in my life. We write together, we normally tour together. And Jay suffered one year ago now.
Jay suffered a brain injury and a stroke, and he's been on a very long and arduous road to recovery, which is not a linear road when it comes to brain, uh, injuries. So it's like snakes and ladders. We were just talking about it last night, how he, like, oh, I finally got to this point. Boom, right back to square one.
he's doing really well and we've all kind of had a really great recent injection of hope and joy as he's had a surgery [00:04:00] that has restored movement in his hand and he's getting better at reading and writing again. But these are all very baseline basic things that you normally take for granted.
So it has become a priority. That every time I leave New Zealand to tour, that I add a trip no matter where I am, add a trip to come up and see Jay, for a few days or as long as I can spare. And I kind of look forward to that. it's usually at the end of a tour so that it kind of helps to get me through that tour knowing that he's gonna be on the other end of it.
And for a long time, being a mother of two based in New Zealand, every tour is a long way away. There's no such thing as a weekend away when you're touring outside of. That little strip of bacon in the ocean, you know, everything is far away. And it's a sacrifice that I think in my head, I always kind of balance with the fact that, okay, I'm gonna be away from my, my, my boys [00:05:00] for a few weeks or a couple weeks, but I'm going to be with family.
So I'm still, So I'm still, Jay was always on the other end, and when we toured together, that was our family time together. And now that that's been. Taken away, hopefully temporarily, but nobody knows. that's been a very hard thing to, navigate emotionally and, you know, at my first tour away from him, like while he was still recovering in hospital, that was my Grand Ole Opry debut,
Michaela: Oh man.
Tami: should have been like the most glorious, moment, in a country music artist's career.
And it was supposed to be doing a duet with him it became this very bittersweet moment. I kind of feel like this whole journey. You know when you look at my social media and you see all the things happening and people go, wow, you're killing it. Oh, you're finally getting your flowers.
All these wonderful things are happening, [00:06:00] and not realizing that there's always a backend to the blessing. You know, there's always a backend and a backside that people don't see. They see the Instagram shots, they don't see the lows that you're navigating usually simultaneously. You know, joy and pain in most of our lives exist.
They're bedfellows.
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tami: Yeah. So that's a very, a very long answer of, how I'm doing and where I am
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron: Thank, thank you for being so open about that. And, thank you. Also, thank you for taking time outta your visit with your brother to, to sit with us today. We
Tami: Oh, do you?
Michaela: yeah. My, my mother, sorry, but I wanna, you said he, you were starting to say
Tami: oh, I was just saying he's doing, he's got, um, an online re rehab session, so this is kind of my time. I'm like, well, he's doing that. So this is when I'll chat with you guys.
Michaela: We are very intimate with this experience. My mother had a brain hemorrhage hemorrhagic stroke four and a half years ago when I was five months pregnant with our first child.
Tami: Oh my
Michaela: And was in a coma for a month and in the hospital for three months and lost her whole right side and her ability to speak and eat and all those things.
So we are very, yeah, we can relate So we are very yeah, we can relate to
to [00:07:00] Oh
what you guys are going through.
Tami: And while pregnant when that's when you're like, this is when I need my mama the most.
Yeah.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I, similarly, it's she. Brain injuries are so challenging because they don't really know. They don't know much. Nobody knows anything. Yeah. Um,
Tami: Guesswork, isn't it?
Michaela: yeah. And that's My mom's path has been, doctors were telling us she was just gonna be a vegetable and needed to like go live in a nursing home.
And my dad and I were like. No.
Tami: Yeah.
Michaela: And my dad thank God uh, has just been pursuing every possible, traditional as well as alternative, therapy, rehabilitation everything. So she's still
Are you hearing our echo? Is that what you're
Aaron: I'm gonna, I have to pause it for a second. Okay. I'll just do that real quick.
Michaela: physically disabled but making much more progress than anyone would've ever predicted, because of, you know. sure you guys are learning the person's perseverance and determination, as well as family support is just massive.
But that feeling of [00:08:00] having these big life experiences without the person that you thought would be there for those experiences, I feel like I'm gonna get emotional.
Tami: no, I feel you. It's not fair.
and especially when those people have been. I remember having this moment saying to my husband, like, all these wonderful things were happening and I was angry,
and I'm like it's so weird that my first reaction is I'm angry because Jay's been by my side tilling this dry ass soil for 30 years, you know,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tami: tending this, plant and these roots that were from the seeds that my parents planted.
and now when finally a little blossom is popping. He's not next to me to enjoy it and reap those same experiences, and it just feels so unfair. I totally how you feel and I appreciate the solidarity.
Yeah.
Michaela: And the, double grief, I would imagine for you, the grief for [00:09:00] yourself and the loss of not having your brother with you in these moments, and then the grief for his grief of what he's missing out on and what he's losing and what he's struggling with.
Tami: Yeah.
Michaela: it's really heavy.
Tami: It's a lot to carry and people don't see that. It's an invisible burden that you are carrying
Michaela: Always.
Tami: on stage. time I look over and see, you know, my lovely guitarist, Cy, win
Aaron: Yeah.
Tami: who we Yeah.
about before, I look over and see him and I'm grateful for him, it's almost jarring.
Michaela: Mm-hmm. Yeah. he takes a solo and I go to turn toward him, and it's not Jay. even in those split seconds of pure joy and
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tami: on tour with Willie Nelson and Bob Dylan and, you're like, this is in incredible. And then for that
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tami: second, I turned and I'm like, it's not Jay.
Michaela: Yeah.
Tami: So it's something that you're always carrying that, people just don't realize. And I think when it comes to brain injury, it's a different kind [00:10:00] of grief. you're grieving a loss of a person who's still there because they're not fully who they were, but
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tami: will return.
But that person isn't there and it's a different version of them, and then you're so grateful they're even there at all. It's a lot of swirling emotions to be holding all the time.
Michaela: Yeah. And I think it's one of those life things that you can't imagine it until you live it. you know, I remember having a hard time with friends as I would try and explain it, and I would say like, I miss my old mom. And be like, no, it's not an old mom and a new mom. It's one mom.
I'm like, no, actually it's, it's a different mom.
Tami: Yeah.
Michaela: Um,
and you see the, miracle of, healing happening. And Aaron and I will have moments where we're like, oh my God, that's Jenny, she's there.
Tami: Yeah.
Michaela: that holding in such high moments on your Opry debut these experiences that.
Also when you are a dreamer and have this dream of a career path, and you [00:11:00] think those are the moments I aspire to have, and then living them, one of the things we talk a lot about is how different things feel when they happen versus what we imagine that they're going to be like.
Tami: Yeah.
Michaela: have this even more specific grief attached to it.
just like the space between such wild extremes that you're experiencing at the same time. That for me has really informed and completely changed my creativity and the type of music that I'm writing and my approach to my career. It's, just. Changed, talking about how with a brain injury you're grieving the person that's right in front of you.
That has changed. But I feel like in my experience, I've changed There's times that I'm like, I miss old McKayla
Tami: Yeah,
Michaela: was like, didn't know anything about this heavy stuff.
Tami: that's so true.
Michaela: can you talk about have you [00:12:00] experienced that and how it's informed. Your songwriting, your creativity, as well as your approach to how you are pursuing your career.
Tami: Wow. Yeah, I hadn't really thought about how I am a different version of me now as well. I think that it has. made my perspective laser focused,
of what's important and what's not, and what I have time for and what I don't. And it makes it much easier to say no to things that are not going to serve family and me.
And the crazy thing was when this all happened one year ago, and I had just finished writing my new album, all the songs were ready to go, and I was going into the studio the week following his surgery and then of course everything went wrong.
he was in a coma when I was in the studio everything was being navigated in real time. And normally when you go into a studio to record an album, it's all this excitement and hope and wondering [00:13:00] if it's gonna be successful, is it gonna connect with people?
what's it gonna do for your career? All those things were gone. And my number one priority. The only thought I had about the music being successful was tied to Jay Co-wrote these songs with me. I need this album to do well so that it will help him and hopefully provide some passive income for him when he can't work.
It became just this practical, like this is a vehicle to help Jay. That was my only thought. And so going in, it was like, this needs to be as good as possible so it'll connect with people so that it'll help Jay.
And it kind of blew away all of the things we normally maybe think about or ponder or daydream about.
You know,
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tami: just fully became practical tool of survival. And it wasn't even about all those kind of pie in the sky stars in your eyes, daydreams.
it really changed the way I [00:14:00] made the album. my last album I produced and I was like one of the very few, I think out of three women.
In the history of the New Zealand Music Awards, I was one of the three women who won Best Producer for an album. And so that was
Michaela: Wow.
Tami: important to me because not a lot of women. Are acknowledged in that role. And so going into this album, I'm like, I need to do the same thing. It's important for other people to see that a woman can produce and bring more work for women.
And so that was very much my focus. And then of this happened and Steven Schram, who I had brought on board to engineer the album, was also a brilliant producer. From Australia. it was no longer co-production. it just completely handed the reins to him and I was so grateful in that moment.
You know, When you finish a take and like pairs of eyes look at you for an answer, they're kind of like. waiting for decision and instead having all those eyes look at him [00:15:00] a relief.
you know, Even little things like that, it was complete surrender
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tami: To be.
Aaron: how did that feel to you afterwards? was it tangible Did it blow by? I'm just wondering what your experience, ' you know, Mikayla's mom was integral in our plans for touring and continuing her career after we had kids. So I can only imagine what it's like to have it be your brother.
It was part of the, band and having this, art form and this music that has been an escape now has this whole other. Set of baggage with it. I just wonder what, you know, after you had this experience of being able to let go of the reins and kind of like lose yourself in making this record how did you feel after that?
Tami: for me more than anything, like You know, You feel so helpless in those situations. And for me it was like, okay, here's a tangible way I feel like I can do something for future Jay. It's, I'm gonna create something that when he wakes up, he's gonna hear it, he's gonna hear his [00:16:00] songs, he's gonna have something to get better for.
know, It's gonna be a motivation for him. It will hopefully, hopefully also be a help financially. But I definitely felt at the time are in like the midst of this storm. it was like a whirlwind. I can barely remember.
A lot of that time, the things that kind of sit with me are, not music centric.
They're Jay centric. Between Takes. My other brother Todd and my sister-in-law, Lindsay Jay's wife ringing me and we're like having a lunch break and they're like, we need to talk to you. We have to make a decision. The doctors wanna do a tracheotomy, which
Michaela: Oh my God. Yeah.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tami: Your voice if they nick your windpipe or you know, um. so making these really decisions,
in the midst of some of these really joyful sounding songs. I think it was a lot of compartmentalizing to get through. The songs and get through the takes because they were all [00:17:00] live takes.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tami: Option these were full performance takes and that's how we wanted to record this album.
And so there wasn't really the option of like, you know, if I break down in the middle of a song, everyone has to start over again.
There was a lot of and being like, okay, focus on helping Jay. That kind of was my, guiding Northern star that kind of grounded me and got me through.
Michaela: I wanna talk a little bit about the idea of surrender and. How, building music careers, we can kind of in the early days think okay, if I'm just good enough and I work hard enough, I'll be able to do it. I'll be able to make a successful career. But there's so many other factors, luck circumstances funding all these things.
And then when you add in aspects of life that. Prohibit you from being able to do the things that you think you, you know, should be able to do, stop you from getting [00:18:00] opportunities. It can be really hard to accept. And depending on how your brain is, my brain can obsess and obsess and obsess
Tami: Yeah.
Michaela: thinking about this experience with your brother and then, if I'm correct, you were about to go on a big trip tour and then you ended up in the hospital. There have been so many things that have kind of like stopped you from the momentum you've thought you were supposed to have, and I'm curious if you've found any practices or any tangible things that have helped you accept and keep going because.
At the same time, if you had, gone on that trip or all these other things had gone differently, who knows if you'd be on tour with Willie Nelson and Bob Dylan and experiencing the things that you experience now what have you found helpful in that practice?
Tami: Yeah. Like the very things that should have stopped me are the things that opened. It's like the more I surrendered the less [00:19:00] those things mattered, suddenly they just unfolded without me pushing without me. Hustling. You know, The things that I would normally do I couldn't do, was forced to surrender accepting. That's really, really hard. But I had this moment when I was, lying in ICU with sepsis and a collapsed lung I couldn't even imagine the version of me that stood on a stage and performed being that person again and questioning if I ever would be that person again.
Would my lung allow me to, would my body allow me to? after being in hospital for a month, Lying there in ICU obviously drugged to the eyeballs. Was this moment and I don't know if it was like a drug induced vision or if it was something like a spiritual thing, you know, you could argue both, the pain was overwhelming and all I could think of was like, I can't continue to [00:20:00] live with this pain and I thought I have to leave. And I saw this beach in New Zealand where I live and the big long grasses. And there was this path through the grass. one path I knew would be to leave this world and then this other path, and it had the silhouettes of my children and my husband standing on it. And I was battling trying to fight to see their faces. 'cause I could just see the silhouette and I'm like, if I can just see their faces, I can hold on. I'm like, no, but I have to go. It's I can't live like this. It's too painful. And the thing that struck me was wasn't a guitar on that path.
There was nothing musical on that path. The things that it all boiled down to. Was the people I love. That was it. And I think since then it has been quite easy to make decisions on, the priority and the importance. And I had ever questioned like, oh, I hope I don't put my career before my children, [00:21:00] or, oh, is this sacrifice of time away from them is that worthwhile?
And, I think that moment showed me it's always been. first, whether it's my children and my husband or my parents and my brothers, you know, always that's the foundation that's zero and everything else is, the icing or the gravy
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tami: the thing
and. I think that's put everything into perspective and it's made me go, you know what, like that connection isn't made, if I lose that opportunity, oh well, it's very much made me realize that if something doesn't happen that I was hoping would happen or a connection made or an opportunity I feel was lost, I've definitely. Come to the acceptance and the surrender of like, well, it wasn't for me, and what is for me will, come to fruition? I've been so struck over and over again on this tour with Willie and Bob. We were going to some places that I grew up singing [00:22:00] in my family band that I grew up with, and. Over and over again struck by like ghosts of myself, my past self, the 16-year-old me sitting in the audience at the Opry and thinking of her and seeing her while I'm standing on the stage of the Opry singing and. There was a moment when we played Branson. I grew up in a family band and we used to play on the Branson Bell showboat back in the heyday of Branson. And we were like the breakfast and lunch shows. And we used to end every set with a gospel medley. I'll fly away. Me and my brothers singing three part harmony we are rolling into Branson and I'm seeing all the billboards that we used to be on for the Branson Bell and it just hit me so hard, And that night I would be standing on a stage a, a few miles away singing the exact same song. I'll fly away singing the exact same harmony part to Willie Nelson,
Michaela: [00:23:00] Oh my God. Yeah.
Tami: Realizing in real time, like those roots that have been growing, they stretch 30 years deep. from the seeds that my parents planted and that me and my brothers have been tending our whole lives.
when those roots go deep, it's dark, filthy, it's. Lonely. you can't even imagine seeing the light of day sometimes when you're in this business, you're like, it's such a, solitary pursuit. A lot of the time you're digging and digging deeper and deeper, and the deeper you go, you're like, I'm going the wrong direction. And then to see 30 years later, that root 30 years deep finally. Pop a, blossom for something to bloom from it. And like for that fruit to actually spring to life. It's such a testament to business being about resilience more than anything else. It's not giving up, it's continuing to just stay the course.
Stay the course. [00:24:00] There's, um. a song on my new album called Keep On, it's a song that is about my dad he wrote me this letter when I first moved to New Zealand. And it starts with the words Keep on, and then it finishes with him saying, keep on emailing, keep on knocking, keep on phoning. Just keep on, keep on, keep on.
And that has been. A guiding phrase, my whole, career, even in his absence. Of course you have to have talent and of course you have to have skill and all those things in this business. But more than all of that, I would say you have to have resilience because you can have all the talent in the world.
And if you stop and if you give up, then it doesn't matter how talented you are.
Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tami: having that resilience to stay the course through all the valleys and all the, the peaks, is the stuff that we're made of. If you wanna find resilience in a person, look at musicians,
Aaron: Yeah,
Tami: the
Aaron: a hundred percent.
Tami: Yeah.
Aaron: That reminds, we had [00:25:00] the duo Johnny Swim on here and Abner was talking about how. The work is in the building. That's all you can do. And the growth happens on its own. And I love relating what we do to farming, like you were saying, like with roots and growing things.
And my cousin who's the closest thing that I have to a brother is a farmer. And like through talking to him and just being interested in what he does. I think us as humans, we focus on the plant and it's like, oh, they're taking care of these plants. And like they're actually not, they're taking care of the dirt and they're feeding the dirt and they're making sure that the dirt is good and the plant grows on its own and it's and it's ugly.
What's beautiful is the plant that grows and the beautiful fruit that it puts out. But to get that, you need to focus on the dirt. But nobody wants to talk about like the muddy hands and like the worms and the whatever, and it's the same with us. You know, it's, the ugly work. It's like the unglamorous stuff, that's what we have control on.
It's like we can control the dirt, we can control the nutrients that are in there, what we put in, and like you said, resilience, just weight and water and hopefully there'll be enough sun and
Michaela: Well, and also with that, you know, you talked about. The whole [00:26:00] groundedness in that what matters is your family and your relationships and the music and the careers, all the, icing on the cake.
But that's so contrary to what we are told we need to do and focus on to be successful. We're told, that musicians. Go on the road all year and don't have personal lives and rock and roll and everybody has addictions. And you know, this stuff has been glorified over and over again.
And also I think reinforced from business relationships in the music industry if you're, not willing to just say yes to everything and be on tour and do everything nonstop, then you're not a worthy investment and you're not gonna be successful. So, Of course family life is not conducive to doing what you need to do.
I love finding examples of people who have prioritized family and personal life and have built a good life while waiting for those [00:27:00] blossoms to happen, while continually working. Because there also is the element of The lifestyle of not giving up and pursuing a music career and being perpetually unhappy the entire time because your career is not what you hoped it would be.
Michaela: There's beauty in living with that and knowing, okay maybe, I'm not gonna get. My flowers until I am 50, but I'm not gonna suffer that whole time. I wanna build a good, beautiful life outside of that. And I think that can be hard for a lot of us when we're so focused on, but this is what I was supposed to do and I was supposed to be successful in this one way. I personally have, struggled with that.
Mm-hmm.
Tami: I think it's something that you learn though your definition of success changes it starts to very strongly away from what the industry's definition of success is.
And you start to realize success is enjoying the whole journey and getting to. Still [00:28:00] have a life with my children in New Zealand.
You know, I remember my, son saying to me, 'cause obviously they've had a front row seat since they were born. And, he was talking about a friend of mine who was, taking off like a rocket and we used to do shows together and things like that. And he'd go, how come they're like.
Really, Really famous now. And you used to do the same things like, should be famous too, mom. I don't, I don't understand. And I said well, buddy, she's like, 20 years younger than me. but also, doesn't have a family. She doesn't have children, and this is the time that she wants to just be touring every day, all day.
Around the world, like she does endless shows. And so that is her journey and her version of success. I said, but I don't want to pay that invoice I'm 48 years old and I can't pay the invoice of my 18-year-old dreams so I said, I.
Feel have great success because I get to do these things I [00:29:00] love. I get to duet with Willie Nelson or play the Grand Ole Opry, or go on tours that I choose, that I feel are gonna be the most impactful in the shortest amount of time. And I still get to go to your rugby games and be home when you're sick from school and be with you and have a life here in New Zealand at the bottom of the world.
it's a trade off of what you think success is and kind of, surrendering to those moments and realizing. when people are like, oh, you're killing it. Your career is taking up. And it's like, not, many people know who I am. I'm still very niche. I'm still in my lane. Feel the same.
I'm doing the same things. Nothing has changed. I'm getting some amazing opportunities, but. I'll never be a household name and I actually, that's not the kind of fame I want.
Michaela: Mm-hmm.
Tami: The kind of success I want. When I was standing stage, two weeks ago, and Patsy Klein's daughter, Julie was sitting in the audience and.[00:30:00]
singing a Patsy song for her, and before I walked on stage, she came back to the change room and she handed me one of Patsy's rings and said, I want you to wear this while you're performing. And it was like a ring that Patsy was wearing on the cover of the Patsy Kline story, the Gold Album. And I'm standing on the stage of the Ry singing a Patsy song.
You know when I sat there as a 16-year-old. I dreamt of standing in the place where Patsy stood, and I'm like, if that 16-year-old could see me, like with her daughter sitting and beaming from the front row and singing her song and wearing her ring like, you can keep your billions of streams and you can keep your record deals.
I'll take this, this is success. This is fulfillment. This is joy on the journey.
Michaela: you said in that you said, you know, defining your own success and also understanding that it might veer away from what the industry says is successful. I think is [00:31:00] something like we constantly need to hear Just because they might not deem it successful or worthy or whatever, does not change what it is for you.
it's really important to stand strong in that of like, okay, the head of Warner might be like, oh, that's nothing to sneeze at, but like. It's your life and your career, and these experiences are what make a life and what make it feel worthy. And just finding your. Partners and champions.
I remember when I got pregnant and I told my booking agent, he, had a really negative response and then basically didn't, answer an email or a phone call for two years.
And then was like, look, see you're failing. This isn't working. I'm like, well, yeah, 'cause
you. booking
You
Aaron: don't because you are failing. Yeah.
Michaela: but I'll never forget one of the last times I saw him. It was backstage at hardly strictly Bluegrass Festival and another band fronted by women who I've known for a really long time, who also, one of 'em was a, a mother at the time [00:32:00] stopped to say hello, and he was like, oh, wow, you guys know each other?
And I was like, yeah, I've told you that. You know, we were talking about career stuff and they like, came and said hello. And then they, walked on stage. And I'll never forget was like looking after them and he was like, the thing is it just gets so much harder to build a performance career.
The later you get in life and the more established and you know, families. And he paused and looked at me and he goes, you're younger than them, right? and I just remember sitting there and being like, oh. and I, like all of a sudden felt very self-conscious of like, the little gray hair sprouting around my, my hairline.
And I was like, oh, he thought I was younger than I am. I was 33 or 34 at the time, and I think I was just like, it clicked that I was like. Oh, he thought I was like 25, I think.
Aaron: But what we need to consider is the plight of the really rich old white man that sits in his beautiful house in California and just has to send emails to people that he's known for 30 years to book these people.
That's, hard for him. Yeah.
Michaela: and looking at a woman saying, this is gonna be too hard for you, the person who's going to be out there. But was such a light bulb moment of like, he has his ideas. And he clearly thought I was a different place in life. but it was like the [00:33:00] ageism and the like, okay.
The industry ideas are different
Tami: Oh and mm-hmm.
they have their little fake rules.
Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. The fake rules. Exactly.
Tami: Yeah. said.
Yeah.
I think it really pisses people off in the industry. I know a lot of men who are really angry. And, I get angry comments on social platforms a lot of the time, and I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, It really makes you angry that a 48-year-old plus sized mother of two who lives at the bottom of the world.
Is up here, taking up space, but not just taking up space. She's doing it in rhinestones and strutting and being bold and confident and taking up that space.
Aaron: Hmm.
Tami: Hide away haggard old face
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tami: And on paper, those are not the things [00:34:00] that the industry goes, oh tick.
Yes, sign her
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tami: There's never been a time in music where you can reach your audience without a gatekeeper more than there is now, and
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tami: The women who make up a majority of our population who are mothers, who are over 40, who are plus sized. They buy music too,
and their butts fill the seats and buy albums and they feel seen and heard in an industry that values youth thinness and beauty over almost everything else.
so I'm quite happy to. Be the personification of that rebellion
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Tami: subversion. I had a friend say to me, because I, introduced one of my songs on the stage on the Opry and said, you know, I'm a 48-year-old woman, and, i'm standing in the circle singing on the stage of the Opry, something I've dreamt [00:35:00] of for 30 years.
Dreams, don't have an expiry date. keep going. And she's like, that was so brave to say your age on, on the stage of the Grand Opry or In this town?
Aaron: How dare you be you.
Tami: yeah. ' 'cause she's like, It is something that most women in that town fear
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Tami: their age getting out or to look a lot younger than they are because the people that are gatekeeping their career, that's what they value
Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Tami: Know that the industry values.
it's very freeing to say well, that's okay. I've got an audience and I can bypass that. And value different things than your fake checklist.
Michaela: Yeah, and even if you don't yet have an audience, like. I like, am so fired up about this stuff because I fight these fearful thoughts for myself all the time. so I always wanna gather [00:36:00] stories of, you're not written off even if those guys write you off. There's also incredible male fans out there who love to see women looking their age.
Talking about real life things. there's men and women who do value that even though the industry and gatekeepers don't think there are.
So I think everything that I fear of, oh, okay, you're not supposed to tell your age. You're not supposed to be a woman over 30 and you're not supposed to be a mother.
And I've personally felt the repercussions of this in my career. Even though it makes me uncomfortable, anytime I'm like, oh, I'm afraid, then that makes me feel like, oh, I'm gonna lean into this. This is what I have to share more of. Because if I'm afraid, there's probably tons of people out there who are afraid to share I know there are women who are like, I wanna have a career, but I also wanna be a mother, but I can't do both 'cause it's impossible. So then I lean into the other side of like, well, I probably annoy people with how much I post about being a mother, because I'm like, or write songs about it. Or talk about it.
Aaron: [00:37:00] Yeah. I It's important to note that like our use of the word industry here is really just like the business people that are the gatekeepers. this is not the public, this is not the audience, this is not the consumers. It's like this antiquated scarcity mindset that there is only one way to success.
You know? And it's like if you don't fit that archetype, they're like, oh, this doesn't even register. And that's what, to me, in my perception, like where the anger comes from. Because you look at
like,
Michaela: yeah,
Tami: are community.
Aaron: exactly.
Tami: between industry and community. Yeah.
Aaron: the first person that comes to mind for me is Sharon Jones, and like the Daptone label.
It's like Sharon Jones, Charles Bradley, Lee Fields. These are all people that started their careers in their eighties. But then my cynicism comes in, it's like, well, they're very strong-willed, powerful voiced, old black artists. they should be making throwback soul music. So if like that also fits its archetype, but to me what that proves is like. there's an audience. I just played the American Music Festival at Fitzgerald's in Chicago last week, and Lee Fields was a headliner and it was packed. There was a thousand people there to see him, you know, and he [00:38:00] comes off stage and he's an older man and he's sweaty and tired but like people love his music and he puts on a show and it's like the audience is there my perception, my armchair analysis of everything is that's why people are questioning labels these days. That's why people are questioning all these things because you're not creative. You're trying to monetize creativity by being antiquated and regressive. It's like there is an audience. put this in front of an audience.
It is there.
Tami: Yeah.
Michaela: And speaking of that am I correct that you've released all of your records on your own label?
Tami: Yes, I record and pay for, own all of my records and my masters. And then I. License it to, I have a lovely, label here in Toronto in Canada called Outside Music. so they license it for outside of New Zealand, Australia. But yeah I own all my catalog. And that's a really freeing thing as well is to have that control of where your music goes, how you make it when you make it.
It
Michaela: [00:39:00] Mm-hmm.
Tami: make it, and again, to me that's a definition of success. and of course it, would be wonderful to have a big machine, take it on and, get it out to more people than I can reach. But not at the expense of sacrificing my, creativity and integrity as an artist.
so that's, a decision that I haven't had to face yet.
that I know many artists have navigated you know, I've always been a firm believer in like, if you don't get offered a seat at the table, you build your own table then they look over and go, oh, that table looks really great and solid and successful. We'll take that on. all labels are doing that now. Anyone they sign has to already have something they've built and that you've built on your own. people might criticize TikTok influencers who are getting signed, but. They have built something, it might be different than the traditional getting on the road doing shows.
have still spent years building a fan base. [00:40:00] and that's what the label's value is like, oh, we can take this on and not do
Aaron: The work.
Yeah, exactly.
Tami: appealing.
Aaron: Yeah, I get it. my favorite little. Motivational internet meme that circles the music community. Seemingly like every two months or so I see a pop up again. It's like some variation of like, you're always one song away from everybody claiming that they believed in you all along
Tami: Yes.
Aaron: because it's so true.
You know what I mean? Like as soon as one song hits everybody's like, she's great. We go so far back and it's like. Really? 'cause I played 15 shows in your town that you just didn't
respond to any emails to so Well,
Michaela: and, and we also have lived in Nashville for 10 years, so we like have seen it very up close and personal of just the same person you've seen at the bar.
And we've
Aaron: experienced it for ourselves too. Yeah. Yeah. not my friend. Like, you know, The last seven times I saw you, you didn't see me. So don't come up here and be like, man, how's it been? Long time.
Tami: Yeah. What's Yeah. dude? Yeah, Name? yeah, [00:41:00] Or my first.
Aaron: yeah,
Michaela: exactly. But like the extremely empathetic part of me wants to take the approach though of just like, man, that is just like all of us.
really just searching for belonging of like, oh, oh, they're doing well. Oh, yeah. I love them too. rather than being like, eh, assholes, like, the like deeply empathetic part is just like, that's just driven by all of us endlessly
wanting to feel like We belong. Yeah.
Tami: is.
Michaela: Yeah. I know we're at the end of our hour. We love to close with. One last question. A choose your own adventure that I'm gonna let you say because I love this. You said it up. I, every time I'm like, you say it because my brain doesn't function. ' cause our baby is still keeping me awake all the time.
Yeah. Five months. Yeah.
Aaron: So it's, like McKayla said, choose your own adventure. One is either, something that somebody's told you along the way that resonates in your head and helps keep you going, keeps fueling you. Or conversely, something you would tell 18-year-old you that was really kind of starting.
I know you, grew up [00:42:00] family band thing, so you were already playing, but like, you know, when you were setting off on your own something you would tell younger you.
Tami: Oh Wynonna, Judd's always been a massive hero. Of mine growing up. Like you can hear her in my voice, like when
Aaron: Mm.
Tami: she taught me to sing. I can remember I was sitting on the couch crying, trying to figure out if I need to, cancel Opry debut because if Jay wasn't gonna be there, then I didn't wanna do this without him.
And my phone rang a FaceTime and it was Cactus Moser
husband who had MD a special that we had both been on. And like, is this a butt dial? But I let it ring and it kept going. So I answered and it was Wynona and was lovely. And we had, you know, I was freaking out and.
we were laughing and talking and I was inviting them to the Opry and, she was said, oh, I'm on tour, or I wish we could be there, but congratulations. Just wanted to you to encourage you. And, within like two minutes she had me sobbing. She looked at me [00:43:00] and she said how's your mental health right now?
And I. out crying 'cause I had just been sitting there sobbing on the couch and I told her I was walking through something that was really difficult and she said well, tell me. And so I told her what was happening and I said, I'm actually considering right now sitting here whether I should cancel the debut.
said, how can I stand on stage and perform? It's like the other half of me is gone. I've performed with him my whole life and as these words are coming outta my mouth, I'm like, who else on this earth would understand this better than Winona, Jed? she talked to me about how she had to accept their legacy award the next morning after her mom passed away.
And she said. You will be given the strength to walk through as everything swirls around you, because this is your purpose and this is what you're on earth to do. And whatever swirls around you can't change it. So you will have the strength to walk through this and that's something I, Carry with me and have carried with me [00:44:00] through this, whole past year with the situation with Jay.
Michaela: That's beautiful.
Aaron: I got goosebumps listening to that.
Michaela: Wow. Well, thank you so much Tammy. It was so nice to have you on here and I was not anticipating to be fully crying. There's multiple episodes that I'm fully crying on, but
Tami: You guys are like the Barbara
Michaela: yeah.
Tami: of Country Music.
Aaron: Well, we're only, we're only able to go to places that our guests are open to going. So thank you for being so open to just be real with us and, share your experience and your wisdom and what you're working through. It. it's inspiring to us, and I'm sure it's really gonna resonate with our listeners.
Tami: thank you guys for the solidarity.
Aaron: Yep.
Tami: that fills our tanks in this
Michaela: Yeah. Definitely.
Aaron: Yeah. And I've been meaning to say obviously I don't have quite the same experience as the two of you being. At a family member. But as observation, you know, like at least here in the states, the common accepted practice, whether it's from insurance or whatever, is that like where somebody is after a year of stroke recovery is like [00:45:00] pretty much where they're gonna be.
And like, it is, it's not true. A hundred percent not that,
Tami: No.
Aaron: know, we're,
We're and a half years out and there's still like, just the other day we were watching her mom tread water in the pool just keep going Like you've said, don't let people. Same always.
That's all insurance.
Tami: it's Yeah. up. It's Yeah. Yep. up.
Aaron: It made up made up rules,
Michaela: which hopefully is different since you guys are in Canada for, for his care, but yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much and we hope to, uh, connect in, person whenever we might be in the same place in Nashville or elsewhere.
Aaron: Yeah. Please reach out next time you're in Nashville for any bit of time.
Yeah. We'd have to grab a coffee or something like that. Yeah.
Tami: Awesome.
Aaron: So.
Tami: To meet you guys.
Aaron: Bye. Take care.