UMAW (the United Musicians and Allied Workers) is a labor organization that 'Aims to organize music workers to fight for a more just music industry and to join with other workers in the struggle for a better society.' Their campaigns include Fair Pay at SXSW, #MyMerch (raising awareness of venues taking an unfair cut), Justice at Spotify, and probably most prominently, The Living Wage For Musicians Act sponsored by Rep Rashida Tlaib in the US Congress currently. We talk with a representative from UMAW - Damon Krukowski (a working musician, and a founder of late 80's indie rocker band Galaxie 500) about who UMAW is, what they are fighting for, and how we can all join the fight.
UMAW (the United Musicians and Allied Workers) is a labor organization that 'Aims to organize music workers to fight for a more just music industry and to join with other workers in the struggle for a better society.' Their campaigns include Fair Pay at SXSW, #MyMerch (raising awareness of venues taking an unfair cut), Justice at Spotify, and probably most prominently, The Living Wage For Musicians Act sponsored by Rep Rashida Tlaib in the US Congress currently. We talk with a representative from UMAW - Damon Krukowski (a working musician, and a founder of late 80's indie rocker band Galaxie 500) about who UMAW is, what they are fighting for, and how we can all join the fight.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
137 UMAW
[00:00:00] Michaela: Hey, and welcome to a special bonus outside of our normal cycle episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And today's special bonus episode features UMAW. The United Musicians and Allied Workers Organization, or rather, a representative from this incredible organization of independent, self-employed musicians advocating for our rights, fair pay and fair treatment under the law.
[00:00:27] Aaron: It's important to note that UMAW is not the musician's union. it is not the A FM or SAG aftra, the two main labor. Relations organizations that have existed for over a century.
This is an organization of people much like us, much like you, that banded together during the pandemic to start advocating for our rights. the person that we met with today is Damon Krakowski, who himself was a founder of the Seminole eighties psychedelic post-punk band, galaxy 500. He is a independent musician himself.
He also has aa book that just came out called Why Sound Matters, which is an incredible read out on Yale Press. But if Yuma or UMAW, perhaps if you've never heard somebody say it out loud, you have probably heard of them from their campaign, Spotify to pay. Artists 1 cent per stream, which really, galvanized that whole conversation.
And in a way triggered the whole Spotify wrapped campaign that we've been inundated with lately. But also
They are the organization behind the Living Wage for Musicians Act, which is sponsored by Rashida lib in Congress at the moment that's made a big splash. These are the people behind that. They are, doing the hard work. They are trying to raise the tide to raise all ships just as we are here on this show.
[00:01:38] Michaela: Yeah. And we got to get some education in this. Episode Damon really filled us in on what the organization does and how we can get involved.
And one of the most important things in my mind of why we should be involved. How do we convince musicians and creatives who are choosing this as their profession that we also deserve? Fair Pay, fair treatment, fair rights.
One of the reasons we wanted to have Yuma on the podcast is because our ethos of how do we sustain a life where our careers are built on our creativity and stay connected with our creativity. An essential aspect of that is having our basic needs met and having fair pay and fair conditions and fair treatment.
So this feels to me like an reallyincredibly important episode for all of us.
[00:02:27] Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. If you've listened to episodes before, this is the point in our intro where we tell you to go check out our Patreon. Please do that this time. I really wanna push you to check out. We are UA w.org and sign up.
It is a, as Damon says, a completely horizontal organization, meaning, it is a true labor movement. your voice will be heard. The next campaigns will focus on what you need. So please to We are UM a.org. And then also please take the time we have apparently this little, subversive miniseries going on, on tangible ways that we can make independent creative careers valid and feasible in this capitalistic society that we live in.
Essential listening after this episode is episode 1 26 with Yancy Strickler. He is a co-founder of Kickstarter. He is the voice behind metal label, the independent, creative, and importantly here, a corporations, artists, corporations, which is a whole paradigm of giving artists and creatives access to.
Capitalism, essentially. so without further ado, please enjoy our conversation with Yu Ma, representative Damon Kowski.
[00:03:32] Michaela: So talking to you guys, we would love to just platform. we think your work is really important and would love to just have a conversation about, who you guys are, what you're doing, and how to involve more musicians. so if you don't mind starting with just kind of an introduction of your organization.
[00:03:53] Damon: Yeah, love how the story of how you started this, and it's interesting to me because I'm older than most of the musicians in Uma United Musicians and Allied Workers, which is the group I'm representing here today. By a lot. Like I could be their
[00:04:06] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:06] Damon: And it's been so interesting to see a lot of younger musicians reaction to the necessity and the pressure to be on the road and to use live music as basically the only means of.
income that they can have as a professional musician right now. You know, because of course when you're younger and you maybe you guys went through this, when you're younger, it's different, going on the road than what it is when you're older. You two have children. So that must be particular pressure that I,I'm personally not familiar with, but I've,I've lived through with friends of mine and, you know, when you're older it's, the stresses of being on the road are tremendous and the pressure is intense right now.
And not only that it's become so much harder to clear, any real profit from being on the road. And I'm seeing that up and down across age, across level in the industry. It's just amazing how everybody's facing that crisis right now. So anyway, so yeah, our group, I'll give you a little background.
United musicians and allied workers, we started during the pandemic lockdown. In, uh,2020 when all of us were thrown out of work, essentially, because live music stopped a hundred percent. And so many musicians have had to come to depend on live music for their income And it just started on Zoom, you know, we were all home, which meant we could find time easily to speak together and meet, you know, was usually whenI think bands tend tocross paths on the road, but actually you're,quite isolated from your colleagues in the industry often because you're all on the road at the same time, But suddenly we weren't. So it was very easy to get together. And we've been meeting weekly on Zoom, ever since. there are multiple meetings actually going on, on Zoom from Yuma. 'cause we broke into committees almost right away. With, different groups gravitating toward examining different aspects of the industry and of our lives.
I've been very intensively involved in the streaming committee, which has been taking a very hard look at our recorded music income. so, I'm best suited to talk about that aspect of what we're working on, but I'm also part of our steering committee that has developed, and I've been there from the beginning.
So I can also talk about sort of how the organization has grown andsort of semi-pro professionalized as we've gone along. We're learning as we go. We're all self-employed musicians, which means, for the most part, we have not had access to union membership at any point in our careers. There are existing music unions, as you know.
There's the, FM, which, uh, has represented instrumental musicians from the entire 20th century. It's a very old union. It goes back to the beginning of unionization, really in the us. however, it's really built for salaried musicians, which essentially means orchestras,
people with jobs in Broadway pits, you know, a FM is very strong.
Representing those kinds of workers. A traditional union situation, you're on a salary. Uh, the a FM represents you for collective bargaining with your collective employers. they can provide true services like a union, like healthcare plans and pension plans. It's amazing, right? But you know, as an, I've been in this industry since the late eighties and I don't know anybody who belongs to it.
I've met some now through my advocacy, but, um, you know, I don't travel in those circles. so that has never been an option for me. The other, existing union that's very important is SAG aftra, which represents specifically vocalists, with major label work. And that again, goes way back.
This is Screen Actors Guild and merged with AFTRA. And, again, they do fantastic work. For their members who are mostly actors, but it do include vocalists from an old, link going way back in their history of recording. Uh, but again, I am not, have not had a major label career. so that has never been an option for me.
But I admire the work that they do. They're really a very, they seem to be very responsive to their members, and they also carried on a very high profile, strike in Hollywood. Very successful together with their acting colleagues. So that's the history of unions in Music in a nutshell. So UMass steps in, we're self-employed, but as you know, there are a lot of us out here.
You know, I mean, it's like, I assume it's the case for both of you. Most of the people you know in Nashville, even if you have studio work as part of your income stream, it's likely that you do not belong to a union or have union representation. You're filing 10 90 nines, not w twos. and so under current US labor laws.
Actually forming a union is, barred to us. We are not permitted under labor laws to form a union because we're self-employed. US Labor law looks at us as small businesses. We are each individual small businesses. And, if we form together and try and say collectively bargain, we're actually violating.
Laws by forming a cartel, because for example, say a bunch of us were to get together and say, okay, Spotify, you have to treat all of us the same way and we're gonna strike and not, work with you if you don't. Spotify could turn around and say, you are our business suppliers as musicians. And so if all of our suppliers get together and start to say we demand of one of the businesses we work with special terms, that is a cartel in business terms.
so you can't do that. we could actually be sued for unfair business practices, by Spotify or by even by the US government. So we can't do that. So we don't have the protections or the rights of organized labor as self-employed musicians. And this has been the situation from the beginning, but I think what's changed and what's.
Cause the formation of Uma's growth is that we are now essentially the, bulk of the music industry. it's no longer like an industry where some people are working on their own and most people are, say, employed,by salaries or by the major labels. we are the backbone of the music industry essentially.
Um, but we have no rights and no representation. So Yuma has formed on the lines of a union, but we are not a union because we're not allowed actually to unionize.Um, so we are an advocacy group. We are a 5 0 1 C four nonprofit. Many people will be familiar with the concept of 5 0 1 C3 nonprofits, which are, nonprofits that can solicit, contributions that are tax deductible.
However, a 5 0 1 C3 is not allowed to take political action. so that is another sort of bar to, organizing and advocating within the government, say, working in electoral politics, for example, we are a 5 0 1 C four, which means we can lobby the government. But, it limits who we can raise money from.
so we are a nonprofit and we do solicit contributions to help us go. but like a lot of organizations that do political action that are nonprofitswe cannot raise money from 5 0 1 C3 only contributions, fellowships and foundations. Anyway, so that's just to give you a background of what we've discovered as musicians trying to organize, which quickly explains why it didn't exist before.
There are a lot of disincentives kind of built into the structure of how the industry, And how nonprofits exist, and how collective bargaining exists, and how labor representation exists and, uh,vis-a-vis the music industry. but now that we're here, we're growing like crazy. we have 70,000 musicians and music workers, 70,007 oh,who have participated in actions that we have, called them to,
In other words, our mailing list, our reach is now 70,000 and growing constantly. That's not even counting social media, which as we all know is another form of reach in this, environment, which can be a bit illusory, but can also be very real for organizing. Our reach is really growing very fast.
We're working on a shoestring, on almost nothing, just on a budget based on a few contributions out of nowhere kind of. And you know, raffles like supporters and musicians giving us things to raffle and people buying them as donations. we've had a few fundraising events like that and recently we've started a, dues paying membership tier, which is voluntary.
And also we have a waiver program because we know how hard it is to be in music and we don't wanna bar any musicians from being a active vocal part of our organization. So we're open to all. So go online at we are yu ma.org and join
[00:12:29] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
I already have.
[00:12:30] Damon: Thank you. Super.
[00:12:34] Michaela: Wow. This is already incredibly informative. I guess one of our main questions is and I know you can speak, mostly to streaming, but just kind of like identifying what are the most pressing main problems that are facing independent musicians today, and the music industry that you guys are identifying.
[00:12:53] Damon: I mean, really we are identifying them by our membership. So again, join us. Um, we're a completely horizontal democratic organization. You will have a voice. And can shape the campaigns we're involved with. but some of the campaigns we've been involved with as I said, I'm involved with streaming, so I'll get to that in a second.
We also have had, we have a venues committee that's been active in, identifying and campaigning for issues with live music. for example, we've had a, my merch campaign, which has been acting to fight against merch cuts from venues, which has been sort of leaking downwards in the chain.
Post pandemic. I don't know if you've noticed, but in my own experience, pre pandemic and also going way back in, 'cause I've been performing, as I said, since the eighties. You faced merch cuts when you got into very big rooms.
[00:13:39] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:40] Damon: And usually union houses actually, and, you know, theaters and, and larger, but it's been leaking downwards, you know, and, uh, post pandemic.
I don't know if other people have been running into this, but you can go into some really small rooms and suddenly the venues like, yeah, we take 20% of your mech, or a third of your merch, or whatever, and it's like, what for, you know, we're still selling it ourselves, you know? It's not like they're providing you with staff to sell, like in a big
[00:14:06] Aaron: Yeah. you don't even have a clip light to light up all the merch that I have on the table. Yeah, I'm in the dark
[00:14:10] Damon: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like we're carrying them. the hangers, you know, for the
[00:14:15] Aaron:
[00:14:15] Michaela: it
feels like robbery, like I will go on tour as a support act, you know, just like a solo support act. and I will be getting paid.
The payment for support acts in like kind of smaller venues is anywhere from a hundred to 200 to maybe $500 if you're lucky. And thenThat's like barely enough to get if, if it's the a hundred dollars, like
[00:14:36] Damon: It's gas money
[00:14:37] Michaela: tank tank of gas, you know what's trying to stay at people's houses or, you know, paying for a hotel, you can't bring anybody because how could you pay, anybody else to be traveling with you.
So you're also traveling alone, doing all the driving. And then you get to a venue and literally the only way to turn a profit is to sell merchandise and merchandise that you've paid for the design work, the printing, which is to print a bunch of merchandise costs, the upfront costs thousands of dollars.
And then you roll into this venue and they're like, yeah, we're gonna take 20%. Give us your accountant. And I have fought with so many people because of this. I'm just like, this is absurd. It is like enraging to me
Even when the venues are small and I will call them out 'cause I've called them out publicly and I think it's atrocious.
Rams head in Annapolis is a small dinner style mm-hmm. Dinner club venue and they will not budge and on a tour. I see how much merch I typically am selling every night and then Rams head night a fraction because they won't even let me stand and sell my own merch, which I know from years of experience on the road helps merch sales because I get to connect with the audience anyways.
This is something I also feel very strongly about.
[00:15:55] Damon: Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm really, yeah, I really
appreciate that.
[00:15:59] Aaron: So many examples of venues that like, you know, we all pass around word of mouth. It's like, oh, this one charges. Where like, I know quite a few where people are like, ah, they charge a, fee.
I'm just gonna let people know and basically sell merch out of my van outside.
Like, come, Come outside and grab a record. Yeah.
[00:16:13] Damon: Yeah. And I also don't blame anyone for not sharing their accounting, honestly, at the end with the venue if they feel they're being un fairly treated. 'cause
that's another
[00:16:21] Michaela: oh, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Oh, I, yeah, I think I sold
[00:16:25] Damon: yeah.
[00:16:27] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:28] Damon: I mean,
Often, staff venues tend to be really sympathetic to musicians and.
And I've been advised sometimes by staff, like, just don't tell me what you sold. Because they don't want to take the cut 'cause they see you're struggling. And when you're opening, it's particularly ridiculous. sure, the headliner might, if you're in a big room, the headliner might be walking away with quite a bit depending.
But you know, you're not, and it's flat rate,it's so bad. But of course the situation when you're, thereon your own, it's already too late really to negotiate and you have no negotiating power or leverage. And even if you're the headliner, you're walking into the club and they just announce often to you what the situation is.
If it hasn't been properly advanced and you're not warned, it's just too late. You can't do anything. And that's true for so many situations in the music industry. You think how isolated we are. You go into a contract negotiation, you go into anything, it's just you or your band or your,colleagues that you work with.
You don't have access to others. You can't suddenly compare notes. You can't suddenly be like, well what were you charging last night at this venue and what are you charging tomorrow? You know, you can't talk to all the other bands and draw on that much less collectively negotiate. So, you know, what UMass doing is pulling our information and then going out with campaigns where any given one of us is not putting our neck out on the night when we have to also perform and walk outta that club, whole and feeling okay.
because we can go forward with a campaign like my merch where it's like, okay. We are going to call on venues. to voluntarily say, we will pledge it. We won't take a merch cut. And the idea is that then we can reward this good behavior by spreading the word of which venues are doing that.
And then we can start a pressure campaign to bring the venues that are not doing that into alignment. Because one of the good ways to pressure is to say, look at your competition, who is voluntarily not taking, uh, merch cuts? And, we musicians are saying this is a big plus for us as we look at where to play and where we ask to play.
So that's an example of a campaign that we can wage. It's relatively winnable in the sense that. It's not outrageous to ask venues not to take a share of merch. All the risk is on the producers of the merch, which are the bands. And 'cause the other thing with merch micha,as you were talking about how much it costs, but also the risk is huge because if you make the wrong choice and you go out with too many t-shirts or the wrong size, or you're stuck holding CDs when suddenly everybody wants LPs or you're stuck holding LPs when suddenly everybody you know, is like streaming,
you're sitting on all your cash now stuck in unsold stock, and the venue of course is no risk at all if they're just gonna take a cut of what you sell that night.
It's just taking money off the profit. It's so outrageous.
[00:19:18] Aaron: Yeah. My argument always is, I hear venues say, it's like, you know, their justification is like, well, we provide you this space and the setting to be able to sell this. I would just want to come back and be like, okay, well then we're gonna take 20% of your bar sales because we provide you with the clientele that buys that.
They wouldn't be here if it wasn't for us.
[00:19:34] Damon: Which is really accurate. Now, that is again the kind of thing where if all of us together are looking at how we can argue with venues reasonably, we hope for improving the situation for bands coming in. Those are the kinds of arguments we can make collectively. But of course, we're never gonna win those one-on-one.
I venture to say there's no bar owner in the world who's gonna turn around and say, okay, here's 20% of the bar, and, you know, unless the bar's closed that night, which, you know, which I'm seeing more and more in venues, I have to say, you know,people are drinking less, which is, you know, an issue for a lot of venues that have been set up where the profit is in the bar.
so they're turning to us to make up for their losses that are happening, or,smaller gains than they projected from their bar sales right now. And they're doing it by raising ticket sales without necessarily raising band. Take. Taking merch cuts without any rhyme or reason. And you know, it all comes outta our,off us and we're the ones with all the risk, you know, we've got all the risk going out.
COVID also underlined how much risk we have just personally as you go out on the road. I dunno if you went through this, but I did. And so many people did getting sick on the road, I mean, we always got sick on the road, right? But we always performed anyway. You get sick with COVID on the road, it's a whole different thing 'cause you're infectious in a way that you never were before.
And you know, I've had to cancel shows with c on the road, which is disastrous for a band canceling shows because your margin is so small, you cancel one night, it's pretty rough. You cancel a week or two weeks, forget it, you're going home in debt.
And in big debt probably, which is then it becomes well, how do you tour it all if the risks become so high?
so we're all facing this kind of thing. So anyway, so we have a venues committeelooking at issues like that. Uh, we're about to launch a new campaign with,with venues aimed at the minimum that we wanna ask of venues. not necessarily minimum pay, but minimum behaviors from venues. Like venues should not be having pay to play programs, venues should not be polling at the door.
I dunno if you've ever run to that, where it's like. people have to say who they're coming in to see, and then they're, you're paid,variously that way at the end of the night, venue should not be taking a share of merch. It's like issues like this that are really achievable. We know they're achievable 'cause they're venues who don't do all these things.
we wanna highlight sort of the good venue behavior. And then, as I said, start to pressure venues who aren't doing that to raise, the bar. So that's the venues committee. We've had a very active campaign, specifically South by Southwest every year now for a few years, with demands to raise, pay for bans of South by Southwest.
'cause for years they've been asking bands essentially to underwrite. The cost of their own, festival. And, uh, we've had some victories there. they have raised bands now pay not enough, but they have. And another demand we've had on them to cut their ties to the military ' cause so by Southwest has some pretty outrageous ties to military contractors in their underwriting again,parts of their festival.
And we feel that's really inappropriate. and so we've had, educational events down south by Southwest. We've staged our own, showcases where we are paying the bans, the minimum that we feel bans should be paid, to demonstrate that, how it should be done. And that's been very successful and we've actually changed.
behaviors there. And then we've had another high profile, well, we've had some other, campaigns, I should say, getting, uh, instruments into prisons for incarcerated populations. we've, uh, partnered with groups for that. This is all on our website by the way. You can look andlook through the campaigns that we've been involved with and come get involved or bring us another one, and streaming.
So when you're ready, I can talk a bit more at length about that gets complicated
[00:23:08] Aaron: Yeah, I know there's quite a bit, and actually that's, how I heard about you guys was through the Living Wage for Musicians Act, which to my understanding is predominantly centered around streaming. Is that
[00:23:17] Damon: Super.
[00:23:18] Aaron:
[00:23:18] Damon: Yeah. It's been a very high profile campaign for us. That, has been great. every campaign we wage is also an organizing tool, I have to say. because it gets awareness out of what we can do together. And then people wanna get involved, which is super streaming, has reached very far out into sort of mainstream conversations.
Um, because I think, 'cause it's concerning everyone in the industry. Our first campaign in streaming was, a campaign called Justice at Spotify aimed directly to Spotify only as Spotify.that was a sort of raise the bar, similar kind of campaign. It was based on shame essentially but it was also, the purpose of it was education.
So we went out with a set of demands for Spotify, raise our purse, stream pay, greater our transparency, stop suing our music publishers for victories that they've already won in the courts. That Spotify was like dragging out in the courts further. And it really worked, in the sense that we got the conversation changed around streaming.
we went out manninga penny per stream. It was a bit of a slogan, but we knew that. but the idea was. If we go out saying pay artists a penny of dream,what most people would say back, would be,you don't get that already.
Like you're only asking for a penny. And then we got to say back actually.
They only pay labels gross, a third of a penny per stream. And they don't pay artists anything directly. And so it was really an education campaign designed to have that conversation quickly. And I think it worked. 'cause I, they feel like now it's pretty common wisdom that Spotify doesn't pay fairly.
And when we went out in 2020, with thatfall of 2020, it was our first big campaign.
That was not the response we were getting. We were getting the response like, what are you complaining about Spotify saving the music industry, Spotify's, saving us from piracy. If it weren't for Spotify, we'd have nothing. And now I think we've really shifted the talk. Um, so it's very successful as an educational campaign was also huge for our outreach.
We had just literally tens and tens and tens of thousands of people participating in that. We delivered our demands to Spotify in a sort of. Political theater. we printed them out and we delivered them. It was still during the pandemic. We had to go in masks to their offices all over the world simultaneously on one day in 2021.
including even in Stockholm one, it was only one brave soul. But that brave soul filmed the delivery, which went, went all over the place on the internet. And um, you know, I did an interview with Swedish National Radio because of that, which was fantastic. So we were really waging a kind of shame campaign.
we had real numbers in New York and LA and you can go online and see, some of the events we staged that day. We had marching bands in Chicago too, was really super. And we got people out on the street in front of their offices, chanting and complaining. Got a lot of media coverage as a result. And we learned a lot about how to organize, about how to get into the media, about, how to make our demands public.
What we didn't succeed in is changing anything materially. Spotify completely ignored us. They refused to acknowledge us at our demands. However, what they did start was Spotify wrapped and a public relations campaign in retaliation or in responseto our demands and our education.
you know, they put more money in,energy into Spotify for artists and this annual thing that they do now Loud and clear? loud and clear. Spotify Loud and Clear was an annual public relations campaign. They now have that they initiated directly in response to, justice at Spotify.
And if you look at loud and clear, it's like point by point trying to, talk back against our, points of, what we were pointing out about what they do. but they haven't changed any practices. They just changed how they talk about it, only, they have all the data and they twist the data to make it look like they're doing things for artists.
But, it's just as bad as it ever was. In fact, their per stream pay has gone down by average since 2020
[00:27:12] Michaela: when did they demonetize? anything that got less than a thousand streams?
[00:27:17] Damon: Yeah. That was just this past year. And it was unilateral, just self-declared. They just decided, you know what? 80% of the tracks on our platform don't deserve any royalties at all, you know, no matter what you say. And they could do it because they're holding all the
chips. And nobody within the industry is really opposing them, with any true, force on behalf of artists.
So that's where we are. So we looked at the experiences of justice at Spotify, which were very positive in terms of education and outreach and changing the conversation and really, zero in terms of changing pay rates or anything within the industry, that would materially change what we get. So then we did an extensive research campaign within ourselves and,
we enlisted the help of some lawyers. So we went to Harvard Law School and they have an amazing, pro bono group that means they work without pay, called the cyber law Clinic that specializes in intellectual property in the digital realm. So we went to them and we said, could you help us research this problem?
How can we as musicians, as recording artists do something within the power of government to alter what's happening with streaming? Because streaming is driving. All of us outta business.And the thing is that ultimately, if all of us go outta business,the music industry collapses, right? So it is not like it's good for society.
Um, it's only good in the short run for people who are making money from streaming, which is the major labels and the streaming platforms, but no artists really. So what can artists do on our own? And these brilliant Harvard lawyers looked at this and we worked with them for over two years analyzing the problem, looking at the judiciary, the executive, and the legislative branches of government.
Very methodical. And here's what we concluded. In the executive branch. There's the FTC and all the really great work that they were doing before the current administration, to break up, consolidated capital and work againsttrusts. There's a lot of existing, laws and, history of breaking up, trust in the country.
And, the FTC under Lena Khan was doing an amazing job of, working against, this kind of consolidation, which isbehind a lot of what's going on in the music industry. The consolidation between the labels and the consolidation between the platforms and their collusion between the two of them together.
And we got into rooms where we were testifying Yumato the FTC commissioners, about the situation for musicians, and they put us in the same room, virtual room.With the most amazing list of businesses we were invited to testify. We show up who's there, slaughterhouses for the meat industry, pharmaceutical distributors and drug stores.
Artisanal beer makers. It was just like this amazing, crazy list of industries,
right?
[00:30:16] Damon: And we get in there and everyone introduced themselves and I'm like, what the hell are we doing here? there was no one else from the creative arts or creative fields in there really.
And then they started soliciting the, uh, testimony. And the testimony from these businesses was identical to ours. You know, if you removed the subject matter. instead of like slaughterhouses and meat processing, you made it music. It was the same complaints. It was like our industry has been taken over.
It was an industry of lots of income streams with many, many independent distributors and suppliers and retail places that we were working, functioning inside this industry and was supporting a lot of labor spread across the country, in all these various ways. And we made modest profits at it to what we're facing now, a consolidated marketplace where there are just two or three enormous players who set the rules.
None of us have any negotiating power. Most of us are going out of business and the consumer is not being served by this. They have fewer choices at higher prices. So it was like, oh, I see what the FTC is doing. It is structurally it's all the same. You know, you can only get your prescriptions filled at Walgreens or CVS in Massachusetts. That's all this really left.All the independent pharmaceutical companies retails have gone outta business or have been absorbed. And then the suppliers of course, consolidate on the other side as well. There's price fixing or price ging as a result. So it was amazing. So that's the executive branch. So, you know, we're doing our share there. That's come grinding to a halt because of course the executive branch is dependent on the executive. So we're in trouble there, until it switches again.
but Lena Khan, I would note who was the chair of the incredible dynamic person. brilliant. Is now involved with the Momani administration coming into New York City. So she's part of the transition team and I don't know what role she's gonna
play
[00:32:05] Aaron: currently,
[00:32:06] Damon: yeah, that's right. Exactly.
Amazing. Yeah, so you can see where, good people go on to good things. And the FTC will continue some of its campaigns regardless, and others will start up again, God willing soon. Then we went to look to the judiciary. The judiciary means you're suing people, right? Essentially, unless you're getting the US government to back you.
There's a big lot of effort going on through the courts in music. It is mostly led by music publishers. You guys in Nashville probably know a lot about songwriting and publishing as part of this industry, the publishers are doing a pretty good job of fighting back against the platforms this was in fact one of our demands that justices, Spotify.
Spotify should at least, obey the judgments that have come down in the courts
and, uh, pay publishers their share. Seems like such a small ask.
It's a small ask, obey the law, but you know, right now in our country, that's a very big ask. You know, it's become almost unreachable for some. Um, but yeah, this was even before this administration and Spotify was just behaving like most corporations are obviously behaving now.
it's like, go ahead, force. See what you can do. And the publishers are doing that and I think they're doing a really good job, actually. So we're like, also Yuma can hardly afford, to start going into court cases. There's no way. And that's of course another problem with doing anything through courts.
You've gotta have capital to fight capital. So we're like, okay, that's not gonna work. What about the legislature? And it's like, okay. Then we analyzed with these Harvard lawyers, the laws that Congress has passed before, to regulate, music royalties, but also specifically digital royalties. And lo and behold, we found precedent in two laws passed in the nineties and the early two thousands when digital first entered the marketplace, that Congress passed unanimously, house and Senate, Republican and Democrat, and they created.
A system of payments that you may be familiar with, as musicians from satellite radio and from internet broadcast and from so-called, non-intentional or non-interactive streaming, even like Pandora that goes through a nonprofit set up on order of the government for, to fulfill a government need and a contract sound exchange, which then collects from those platforms, those digital platforms, and pays directly to recording musicians.
How do you like that? That would be an amazing system if it applied to interactive or intentional streaming, which is Spotify, apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube, music. Which doesn't exist right now. And so we wrote a bill. With these lawyers drafted a bill, to create a new streaming royalty, a path from the platforms to the recording musicians through an intermediary non-profit intermediary sound exchange or a similar intermediary that would be set up.
It could be done by sound exchange if they bid for the contract. And it would just absolutely mimic what happens now already and is happening for satellite radio and internet broadcast and non-interactive streaming like Pandora. Uh, so that's all we did. It is like a really short bill. It makes so much sense.
The language in the bill is literally cut and pasted part of it, from existing bills that Congress passed unanimously before, and that is the living Wage for Musicians Act.
[00:35:24] Michaela: Wow.
that's a lot of information
and like, no, no, it's no very, very helpful.It's very, yeah. My, my follow up question is you guys are doing incredible work. We know the way that musicians can get involved.
To me, one of the main obstacles and barriers is how to convince musicians that they have any hope to change things and that they have a right to advocate for themselves. Because I feel like being in this industry for so long, you just get accustomed to bad treatment
that you just think, Aaron and I went to college in New York City and the new school, we went to Music Conservatory.
And then I got a job at Nonesuch Records right out
of school.
So
my first, I had a salary, I had great healthcare, I had, contributions to a 401k, but I only lasted two and a half years because I wanted to go on tour and be a self-employed musician. I had paid time off, I had paid disability when I had to have a surgery.
Like all these,things that now seems so foreign to me, like we're just so used to now having no support. We've had two children now with no paid time off. I
will say we gotten some support this year from Music Cares, which is an incredible organization that more musicians should know about and take advantage of, in the best possible way.
They only recently started extending grant access to musicians forparental leave, for parental leave and childcare.
But if we get sick we don't work, we don't make money. Like we're just, we're so used to all of this stuff. We now are accustomed to not making money off of our music.
Like we sign record deals where we sign away ownership of our masters and we don't understand the repercussions until we start living it. oh, now in the age of ai, if we don't own our publishing or the rights of our masters, we don't have, say, in these negotiations that are happening between labels and AI companies where our work will be used.
So I fight the mentality of, well, I chose this and this is the culture. Now as a mother, the idea that like. Maybe a venue had a, a mirror that like a woman could look at herself before
stage
to then think of like, or a man.
Or a man. Sure. I check, check sometimes, or that there could be a world where we had festivals that had childcare, that had a, a daycare like that seems so insane to me.
And then I'm like, wait, but that could be possible. So the barrier of convincing musicians that this isn't a luxury, silly profession that we've all chosen, but that like we could build an infrastructure of care and rights and protections. have you guys learned anything of how to convince.
Musicians to advocate for ourselves and not just be grateful for the crumbs because we just so badly want this career. And so therefore, while our music is out there and Spotify gets it in front of people that otherwise wouldn't hear it, so like, I guess it's okay that we don't see a, penny from it.
[00:38:37] Damon: Well, that was so well said. Thank you. Yeah, so eloquent. that's so interesting that you worked at a label first and had all those what I would say, what those are, arethe evidence of victories of prior labor movements. You had paid time off, you had healthcare, you had weekends, you know, you had, you had, um. working for a label, you probably didn't get overtime, but of course in, in,
oh, you did.
My God, that is very impressive of none such. I mean, I knew I liked their catalog, so now that's speaks really well. so what all of those are, are victories from, labor fights, right?
Like no capitalist organization gave those to their workers voluntarily.
And the music industry has gotten away with not having an organized workforce, a labor force that could fight back and make demands, collective demands. So we are essentially working under. You know, 19th century labor
conditions as musicians self-employed musicians, I should say.
because again, if you're in Broadway pit, if you're in a classical orchestra in a union house, you do have those
rights. But for the rest of us, we don't. So we are laboring with no protections, and that's just plain wrong. It's also why they don't refer to us as labor. You know, they say, and that's that whole argument that you were, alluding to, which is like, oh, it's a privilege to do what you do.
You're lucky to do what you do. Uh, I always wanted to be a musician too. I, you know, it's like when people say, uh, I wanted to write a novel, I just never found the time. It's like, yeah, well make the God time because that's a sacrifice, you know. You make those choices and it's not a privilege. It's actually our work.
This is our labor. And not only that, it's incredibly hard labor, but we don't even have to make that argument, which is true enough. We all know anybody who's been in music knows it. But from the outside of music, people look at it as like, oh, it's a glamor industry. It's like, they don't wanna admit that it's work.
And I think that really what we're,up against is just really more a question of, vocabulary and of attitude. 'cause we do acknowledge that labor has those rights. What we don't acknowledge is that music is labor. And that's what Yuma is really dedicated to, is arguing for and establishing.
and reminding everybody that work in music and work in the arts at large is labor. I think AI is actually doing us a favor in that regard because it's so obviously different than what we do. And it's making it clear that like in all the other parts of our economy that is starting to look toward, AI is being used as a labor cutting device, right?
They're trying to eliminate labor with ai and it's like, sure, make your AI music, it sucks because it's not actually made by people. that's because we are laborers, we are working. It's not just, this like thing that can be done, you know, if you had enough time or whatever. And I think thatin a way that's highlighting.
The human labor aspect of the arts in general, of intellectual work in general, which I hope in the long run might aid our,efforts. I will say that, you know, who needs no convincing that music is labor, which is amazing to me, is the Congress. So when we started going to Congress, we had no,none of us had any experience going to lawmakers again, because I think it's a similar thing where it's like, musicians don't presume that anybody represents us in the government either.
You know? It's like, like we are so on our own. It's like, who would think, you know, you could go to your,elected representative and say, I'm a constituent, I'm a musician. And they're like, oh, you know, I love music means so much to me. because that's true for most people in the world. and then you're like, it's getting really hard to afford.
Living in, you know, New York as a musician, for example, living in,I live in Cambridge, Massachusetts. It's just as expensive as New York now living in Boston as a musician. And they're like, tell me more. Because that's actually part of their job is to worry about their constituents, material existence, contributing to the community, contributing to the economy, the local economy, and, being taxpayers and rent payers or owners of their homes.
We are part of the community and actually our elected officials care about our existence, our subsistence in the communities. So we've had a really fertile audience in the Congress. we got sponsorship for our bill. It is through the Progressive Caucus so far, which is predictable in some ways because we're talking about working people's issues.
But you know what, there's a lot more people in Congress that care about, working people than just the progressives. The progressives took meetings with us, is what happened first, and our main sponsor is Rashida Tali from Detroit. Now, that's no coincidence for a number of reasons. One is that Detroit, rock City, Motown Detroit is a music city. It is a music capital. It is not Nashville, as you well know, or LA or New York, which means there's no lobbying going on from the major labels or from the streaming platforms, the tech platforms, to the representatives in Detroit. Neither is there in Austin or Seattle or Boston, not really even in Atlanta.
We found the major labels have been very blinded and the platforms are blinded to the industry as they define it, which is just the insiders that they care about. who control, you know, in their mind the lion's share of the industry, which is the major labels essentially. You know, the figures are very high of the percentage of copyright that they control, but you know what, they're not The labor force.
The labor force and music is spread out all over the country, and it's not just pop and country and hip hop, it's regional music. You know, it's Tejano music, it's polka music. You know what else it is? It is church music. It's worship music. We had a really amazing meeting with a real right wing Republican congresspersons staff, who's an intellectual property expert.
So we have to go through their office to get anywhere with our bill. And they were very receptive to us, and their legislative director said to me in a meeting, oh, I've heard about the problems with Spotify from my worship community,
Because they make recordings too. Duh. If you've ever looked at like a catalog for recording equipment, half of it's devoted to worship community.
You know, you buy a microphone, it's like. The pamphlet that comes with it is like, how to use it in your sanctuary. so in other words, the music industry is so much bigger as a labor force than with Spotify billboards in Times Square and, the latest you know, billboard articleabout major label signings and deals in Nashville.
that's what we're doing. musicians and music workers who've signed our public petition and written letters to their, congressional representatives, which you can find at. We are, um, dot org, very easy forms to fill out. Takes like five seconds.
It fills automatically in your, representatives and,populates a letter for you to send automatically.
We sorted that list by Congressional district that we've had just musicians and music workers who've written their reps on our behalf for the Living Wage for Musicians Act. We are not missing a single district in the whole country,
Wow. Wow.Alaska to South Florida, right?
None. So what we've been doing, and this is how we found the sponsors for our bill, this is how we found Rashida, was we just started telling our member, our active members, call your representative's office and ask for a meeting, right? And then we just go to meetings as constituents. And lo and behold, we get the meetings We have not had a bad meeting. And so we've gotten so far that we got a sponsor for a bill. We've introduced the bill to Congress, in the house. We're now taking meetings with senate offices. we are moving, and you can be a part of it. Every single one of you listening to this can be a part of it.
If you work in music, if you work in a music business, so long as you're not a manager. or at a platform, uh, we do ask that maybe you don't wanna be involved with us in that kind of way, although you can certainly support us and be fellow travelers. But the core of our organization is music workers, right?
Just like any other labor organization. Please come join.
If you're worried like you don't really fit, come and find out. because it turns out you probably do, probably your job at none. Such would've been fine. Come on board. And we have common cause with the workers at labels, with the workers at the platforms even.
some of them have unionized, actually some podcast studios have unionized and we've been in touch with them. Because we're all laborers. And so to get back to your initial question, Miguel, which is so beautifully formed, yes. It can be something to overcome in our own internal attitudes about who we are as artists.
We've been told we're of a different class, you know, or whatever it is. We're not laborers, but you know what we are. and you go out on the road for one weekend, you tell me you're not working, you know?
[00:47:27] Michaela: Yeah,
[00:47:27] Damon: That's my answer.
[00:47:28] Aaron: yeah. Amazing. That's, that's so beautiful. you know, we're just wrapping up our third year of this show, and from the beginning we've had the mindset and approach of, as the tide rises, so do all the ships. And so feels like a,a significant moment to have you and your organization on here as you guys seem to embody that same ethos and that same approach.
And so thank you, Damon, for taking your
[00:47:51] Damon: Oh, thank you both. Yeah, thanks.
[00:47:54] Aaron: work that you guys have been
[00:47:54] Damon: Yeah, no,
it is really helpful to get the word out to musicians and music workers. I mean, 'cause I would say the other corollary to, you know, the rising tide lifts all boats is sinking ship takes everyone
down with it. You know, and, you know,I personally, I think thatthe music industry is sinking right now.
And I, I don't think I'm alone in thinking that.I think that at the very highest echelon of the music industry, they're thinking that, otherwise why would they be making such terrible decisions for the long-term health of our
industry? Uh, they really are. They are just heading headlong to disaster for music.
They're not heading toward a financial disaster for themselves. ' cause they are building wealth and they're getting the hell outta music. Right. I mean, AI is not music. Spotify's not music. It's a tech platform. They could get outta music tomorrow. Apple may well get a music tomorrow. It doesn't matter to their company at all.
Amazon, for god's sake, they're not a music company. None of them are music companies. None of them are music companies. The major labels were music companies until recently,
[00:48:56] Damon: and I don't think they are anymore. They're financial organizations and they're looking at music the same way that any financialization, people look atat anything.
They're just looking at us the way thatlook at meat packing, the way they look at pharmaceuticals, the way they look at, any industry that they can game strip for value and get the hell out. And that's what's happening to music now, which is why I think it's up to us, it's up to musicians.
And music workers to figure out how to have, a sustainable life in the digital era.
[00:49:27] Michaela: Yeah, I think that's amazing. And I think, to tie a bow on it, I guess I would say, but,I think the biggest message that. For me, following you guys on Instagram and watching what you put out and the language you share is just a continual reminder that there are so many of us and that we have a lot more power than we think we do,
We need each other.
In an industry where the little workers of musicians, we do think it's personal failings. If we're not doing well, or if we're not,making money, it's because we're not popular enough. We're not selling enough tickets and there are systemic issues that are working against us.
And this is really helpful to remind us all there are things we can do. So we will,definitely keep pointing people to you guys. And thank you so much for coming on and educating us.
[00:50:15] Damon: Oh gosh. Thanks for having us. And that's exactly it. We're building power and we need to, but power with that organization is power wasted. So that's why we need to organize. So come join us.
[00:50:27] Aaron: Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Damon.
[00:50:30] Damon: Thank you both. Yeah. I look forward to you know, learning more from you guys and I really appreciate what you're doing.