Will Hoge has released 13+ albums both independently and on major labels (Atlantic), has been nominated for Grammy, ACM, and CMA awards, and has toured with NEEDTOBREATHE, Jason Isbell, Lisa Loeb, Sugarland, Michelle Branch and others. We talk to Will about the emotional and professional fallout of writing politically charged songs, the role of parenting in shaping artistic courage and empathy, the difference between surviving the industry and making meaningful art, burnout, staying human, and a whole lot more.
Will Hoge has released 13+ albums both independently and on major labels (Atlantic), has been nominated for Grammy, ACM, and CMA awards, and has toured with NEEDTOBREATHE, Jason Isbell, Lisa Loeb, Sugarland, Michelle Branch and others. We talk to Will about the emotional and professional fallout of writing politically charged songs, the role of parenting in shaping artistic courage and empathy, the difference between surviving the industry and making meaningful art, burnout, staying human, and a whole lot more.
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All music written, performed, and produced by Aaron Shafer-Haiss.
Hey, and welcome to this week's episode of the Other 22 Hours podcast. I'm your host, Aaron Shafer-Haiss,
[00:00:19] Michaela: and I'm your other host, Michaela Anne. And we are on episode 131. This week we're featuring our conversation with Will Hogue.
[00:00:28] Aaron: Yeah. Will Hogue is a singer songwriter based here in Nashville that started putting records out.
Close to the year 2000, he spent over a dozen records on a mix of major labels and indie labels. His first few records came out on Atlantic, and in 2004, kind of in the height of when the chicks were starting to get canceled for political speak, he brought a political EP to Atlantic and they loved that.
But kindly said maybe we can't do this right now as a business. So if. You wanna put this out, you should do that on your own. And he took his record and left a major label really early in his career uh, which is pretty amazing. So we touch on that amongst other things about using your voice as a citizen in this country and as an artist.
it's a little backstory on Will. Aside from being on Atlantic, he has toured with need to breathe. And former guest of this show, bear Reinhardt, Edwin McCain, another former guest, Lisa Loeb. Jason Isabel Sugarland, Michelle Branch. He's been nominated for Grammys, a CM, and CMA Awards. Because if you're a country music association, you can only use the letters a, c and m and you have to organize them as you will.
But yeah, he's put out over a dozen records in the time still touring all over the place, and also starting to produce records for other artists.
[00:01:40] Michaela: Yeah, and we got to cover a lot of ground in this conversation. He shared. Really great story about being a young person and sneaking backstage at a Rolling Stone show and thinking that he was going to encounter the biggest party of his life and seeing Mick Jagger do yoga.
And the seed that planted of the importance of taking care of yourself to sustain this life. We talked about the difference between being an artist and a businessman and doing the hard work that is required to have a good life.
[00:02:08] Aaron: Yeah. As always, if you've listened to these podcasts, you know very well that some of the questions that we ask and the topics that we touch on come as direct suggestions from our Patreon subscribers because they get advanced notice of our upcoming guests but they also get the day to day immense satisfaction of financially supporting the production of our show, which is substantial even for a small production like ours.
So if you would like to help us continue to have amazing guests like Will and produce this show, and if you'd like to see who we're going to talk to next and pose some questions their way, there is a link to our Patreon below in our show notes.
[00:02:46] Michaela: And if you're a visual person, this episode as well as all of our other conversations are available on YouTube And without further ado, here's our conversation with Will Hogue.
Thank you so much for being on. we like to start with how are you and where are you today physically and creatively?
[00:03:05] Will: I am physically and I guess creatively as well in the studio here at home in Inglewood, east Nashville where I live. I think I'm probably a solid eight outta 10 today, so it's pretty
[00:03:15] Aaron: good. Nice. is that a writing room basically, or do you actually make your records where you're
sitting?
[00:03:20] Will: I do a lot of overdub stuff
it would be very crowded to do full band tracking in here, but I have tracked drums. I just finished a record for a duo out of Boston I tracked everything here with them and then went back and just, I just brought the kit in and, set up drums and tracked here.
Which was really fun. You know, it's, all really a learning experience for me. But I continue to fall more and more in love with it It's great.
[00:03:46] Aaron: it's a rabbit hole for
sure.
[00:03:47] Will: is. Yeah.
[00:03:48] Michaela: so you're producing others as well. Is that a recent, endeavor for you?
[00:03:53] Will: Yeah. I, did the first outside production work. Probably I don't
[00:03:57] Michaela: I know, it's,
[00:03:58] Will: or 12 years ago. I dunno
[00:03:59] Michaela: yeah. Yeah. uh,
[00:04:01] Will: I think it was about six or seven years ago, I did a record for some friends of mine from Ohio, this band called Red Wanting Blue. And then have just continually kinda year after year picked up. it was never really an intention mine. And the thought of being a quote unquote record producer sounds awful. I mean, I really don't want to do that. You know, I,
[00:04:21] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:22] Will: and you know, you see all these guys and girls that do that for a living and they're out.
the bars and staying up late and trying to find something. And then half the time I, feel like you're making music you don't wanna make, it's just like, well, I've gotta do this for a dollar. And I've really tried to cultivate a career where I can do as little turd polishing as possible.
And um, I mean, I've done more and more records each year and I really do love it. I've been able to really. I only work with people that I like and I feel like I can help with their records. So yeah I am doing more and more of it.
[00:04:56] Aaron: Yeah, Drums are my first instrument, so I was, you know, side man on the road in the van, learning songs for the next
gig with a different, you know, doing that. And now I rarely, tour at this point. just like, yeah, I do it just with, people that I really like
I started touring when I was like 15. So I've, punched my car on the road and so I try to just take things that are enjoyable knowing that, you know, even if it's the best music with the best people, like the road is It can be tough. And talking to friends that are, on the sideman side, still doing that.
Like, Oh man, that must be so great. Like, You just get to stay home and make records. I'm like, yeah, it's still a hustle, just in a different
direction. It's the same thing, you know, I
just just a local hustle,
Exactly. you know, My commute is 40 feet behind our house
now instead of however many hours on a plane.
But
[00:05:38] Michaela: through these conversations we've talked to people, What was our oldest guest? How old was Alice Gerard? Alice. Gerard,
[00:05:44] Aaron: 87. Yeah.
And she's 89 and still,
[00:05:47] Michaela: touring. And um, what we just continually hear is that the hustle never ends.
It's like mm-hmm. so the constant, like how do you become comfortable with the discomfort of instability and always having to. Reinvent and try again and seek more. And you've been doing this for a long time, making records and have had major label deals and, big accolades and awards what has that process been for you of riding the ups and downs and do you feel like you have a good relationship with it or is it still an endless evolution?
[00:06:24] Will: Yes to all of that. I think, it is a constant evolution if you're gonna continue to do it. ' and I love that you used the term relationship because I think If you're gonna do this very well for very long, it is a relationship, which also like any other relationship, you can't just give to it all the time.
[00:06:44] Michaela: Mm. You have to also receive, it has to be a, relationship, a give and a take. And the reality of it is. Playing a rock roll band is the greatest job in the world. my kids are kind of into it now.
[00:06:55] Will: My oldest just turned 18 as a senior in high school, and he's way into it. He's bitten by the bug and got his band and they're out trying to book gigs. And it is, wild because it's like a time machine. You just go back and relive all of the exact shit that we all did growing
[00:07:11] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:12] Will: But when you're young, you're just out banging your head against the wall 24 7 'cause you want nothing more than to do this.
It's the only thing that matters. And at least for me it was.
you know,
I would drive if the drive was 20 hours. And you just did it, you know, and then you rolled out of the van and you went on stage and you ate shit, food, and you didn't sleep and you did all of the things. And that's just not sustainable.
And through it all, if you're gonna continue to do it, this sounds name droppy and, it's a longer story for another time, but I remember in my mid twenties. I had snuck in to see a Rolling Stones concert here in Nashville. They were playing over at Vanderbilt and we had weaseled our way through all sorts of trickery to end up literally backstage hanging with those guys and, and standing in their little pre-show huddle.
And we walked on stage with them. And I remember at the time just thinking, I thought it was crazy. 'cause, you know, it was like the Rolling Stones, they're gonna be, it's gonna be the biggest party ever backstage. And I remember that Mick Jagger was doing yoga and all of these things, and I remember thinking at the time, like they were doing stretches and exercising, and I was like, what is this?
Like, This sounds insane to me. You know? And, it is funny that it's, as you go along, I mean, I, I'm obviously nowhere near that level of success. But you realize that that's part of the longevity of this is, the biggest party in rock and roll band of all time They're rocking and rolling, but they're they're 80 years old now.
and they didn't start all of a sudden getting healthy at 80,
So that was an eye-opening moment for me and it was still, a decade before I really started to probably. Care. I was in an accident in 2008 that put me up in the hospital for a long time and I had to come off the road and do a lot of physical therapy and a lot of mental work, just trying to get my life back in order.
And that was a real reset moment for me of being forced to take care of myself in a way that I had never. Had to. And so that has been ultimately long term really helpful. It kinda started me on a, path to wellness overall. That's been really helpful for, it's been 18 years now, so
[00:09:33] Michaela: A lot of times something has to happen that kind of shifts our perspectives or opens our eyes to, how we wanna live. there was a quote the wound in the eye are one in the same.
[00:09:46] Will: Sure.
[00:09:46] Michaela: And that what you just said of like sometimes something. That's painful or, you know, an actual injury or an emotional injury or something is the thing that helps us see more clearly.
and I feel like it's also just a reoccurring theme with, musician lifestyles we have this romanticized idea of what this is supposed to be like. you're so driven by your dream and your goal, and then you start to grow up and you're just like, wait, oh, I still want to do this as, as badly as I did.
But I also recognize the limitations of my body and wanting like a, life outside of it as well and needing a life outside of it in order to still enjoy it. I think in the same way, so it's such a fascinating process to me of just the evolution of our approach to our career, but also the art.
Have you seen as you're focused, shifted on how you toured, how you approached your lifestyle, did any of that influence how you created.
[00:10:50] Will: Yeah. And same sort of thing. I think there's a part when you first start doing this, It's a rocket ship, you're writing and you're making music as fast as you can. You go out on the road and start working know, you go to tour behind your first record and you got 10 songs, or 12 songs probably that you can play that people may know, and, you know, it builds from there and you're just floating through space and there's no real direction, there's no rules.
And then that gets crazy. Yeah I think that as I've grown and become more focused on the whole of wellness and being better yeah, that definitely parlays into songwriting. 'cause I think that there becomes a patience of, when you're first making records, you just trying to get anything out there. But I think that after you do this for a bit of time and you have any semblance of what for you is success, and that can be different for every person.
But, you know, there's a point where when you start, there is a bit of a chip on your shoulder that you're having to prove. A lot of people wrong. All of the people that you were a loser growing up. All of the people that made fun of you for wanting to do whatever the thing is or whatever, the kid that beat you up in high school, whatever it is, the guys in the band that quit that told you weren't good enough.
Like you're like, I'm gonna show them I'm gonna do this. And then you get to a point, I think, where you. Prove those things and you know, then it's like, what's the next Everest for you to climb? And then, you know, you do that a few times and then if you're still gonna do this, there's just not always gonna be a mountain to climb.
And then I think it shifts internally and it really becomes. I don't have anything to prove to anybody anymore. It's incredibly liberating as an artist. Uh, And I have felt that way for a while, then it becomes what's the standard that I hold myself to? And what's better? Maybe it's a writing thing of how do you get to a, point in a way, as streamlined as possible with as few words as possible. Or how do you say this in a way that you haven't said it before?
[00:12:55] Michaela: Mm.
[00:12:55] Will: Or if it's in the studio, you know, how do you record something in a way holds true to the shit you've done before, but also pushes you forward?
the new challenge is much more internal than it is. Towards anybody else. also in a rock and roll band, so you have to have a little bit of a chip on your shoulder. It sucks.
[00:13:10] Aaron: Absolutely.
[00:13:12] Will: you to think that I don't still have a little bit of chip on my shoulder.
[00:13:15] Aaron: You haven't gone soft. Right.
[00:13:16] Will: Yeah.
[00:13:19] Aaron: but I mean that's, so true we kind of touch on this a lot on this show is guess undervaluing the ease as things get easier when you have. Less to prove when it doesn't feel like the boulder that you're pushing up the hill is as heavy as it once was.
You know, like you said, there's not always a mountain to climb. how does that feel to you? How does that feel to your creativity? Does it feel like you're just spinning your wheels? Does it feel like you're, falling behind? Or is it like open road windows down, this is awesome.
Where are we going?
[00:13:48] Will: it feels more like the open road I feel like I've shed all this sort of baggage and things that maybe were cumbersome along the way, and now I, not only is it an open road, but I feel like the weather's nice
[00:13:59] Aaron: Mm.
[00:14:00] Will: and there's all these different turns and it's like, man, I can kind of wander down here and see what's there.
And so that part is really nice. I, I do think that, The things that you want are also different thinking, when you start out, you're single or you're young and you're doing this and it's you just wanna be great and prove whatever it is that you do, but then, you know, it changes.
You get, you know, to have kids, there was a, moment where I had to decide am I going to not be on the road?
Am I gonna come home and just be a dad? And then
[00:14:42] Aaron: Sort.
[00:14:42] Will: maybe I do something else, or I find a way to make it work and I'd be home more. But I really. Made a conscious choice and my wife and I talked about it a lot and made the decision that I wanted them to see that it's possible to carve out a life doing something that you love creatively.
And it just takes a lot of work. there are incredible perks. My kids have gotten do things I could have never dreamed of. I mean, They had passports and were on tour with us in Europe when they were. Seven and four years old. You know, I flew on a plane for the first time when I was 28.
[00:15:15] Aaron: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:15:16] Will: you know,
there's these things that my kids have had access to, even with the humble levels of success that I've had that are really special. And so I want them to experience that. But then they also, come on the road and see the shows where. You're playing for a hundred people solo acoustic and loading your own gear and selling merch afterwards,
[00:15:37] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:38] Will: they see the reality of it.
And get to see that when I'm home, lots of dads spend more time seven days a week or home, but not necessarily spending the hours that I get to spend with them. I can come home and be off. off for sometimes weeks at a time. And so I'm hoping that that enables them, as they grow into their own humans and adults, that they'll get to believe that they can do those things that they wanna do.
And just understand that there has to be the best balance that you can strike and being willing to admit when you're wrong. You know, I've had things where I've had to miss things and I do too much and miss something, and hope that see the, also the power of ownership and just saying I'm sorry and doing a better job the next time.
I'm hoping that all of those lessons are things that are beneficial for them long term.
[00:16:32] Michaela: Yeah, I love that. And bringing kids into the mix is something we talk about a lot. We have two children. We have a 4-year-old and an eight month old.
[00:16:40] Will: Oh Um, so we're fresh. Uh, But
[00:16:42] Michaela: like our four.
[00:16:44] Will: easier.
[00:16:46] Michaela: Thank you.
[00:16:46] Will: again, don't worry. It's
[00:16:47] Michaela: Yeah. Our eight month old started to sleep through the night about a month and a half ago when our 4-year-old decided to stop sleeping through the night.
[00:16:55] Will: that's perfect.
[00:16:56] Michaela: yeah, that's
great.
[00:16:57] Will: way it works.
[00:16:58] Aaron: It's easier to sleep, train an eight month old than as a 4-year-old because the 4-year-old has vocabulary and facility and reasoning, and you're
like, I, okay,
[00:17:06] Michaela: but we, you know, we talk about parenting and creativity and because becoming a. Parent definitely changed our careers. For me, it dramatically changed my career as a, mother.
And the way my booking agent at the time had a really negative response and lectured me on how hard it was gonna be and then stopped answering emails. So there really negative consequences which makes me dig my heels in more to be like. I'm not going anywhere. I'm gonna show, and I could never do this without Aaron's commitment as the father and partner and also a, working musician, but we've just been like whatever level, quote, unquote level we're on we're gonna figure out how to make this work as long as we want to keep making it work, as
long as it's still fun. Like I did a three week solo acoustic tour in Europe and Erin and our daughter came when she was just under two. And we were, you know, renting cars, taking trains, schlepping a merch suitcase, and our suitcases and a guitar.
And it was like probably my favorite. Tour I've ever done. Like we had so much fun. And like you said, the privilege of like our 4-year-old is like, oh yeah I've, been to Scotland and
London and,
Oslo and she like, was under two. But we look at photographs and she's internalized this and it's stories we talk about.
But. The reality is that it is more challenging to have a family and build a touring career. And I was just talking to my manager about this 'cause he's been with me through all of it. He manages another band that has two children, but you know, they're on a bus and playing much bigger venues and have a.
Bigger business, but it's hard for them too. every level. It's challenging and I said to him, I was like, I get why agents and managers are like, yeah, surface level seems like a better investment to work with somebody who doesn't have a family or any other obligations because they can just tour nonstop.
But that is only. A capitalistic viewpoint. And also you don't know what incessant touring, what's gonna happen to that single person's life if they'll burn out all this stuff. And it doesn't reflect having a whole big life and family and people to take care of what that does to enrich the art that we're making.
[00:19:25] Will: Yeah. there's a lot there. I mean, One the, patriarchal aspect of how hard this is for women it's exponentially more difficult. And I'm not telling you anything you don't know. Uh uh
[00:19:38] Michaela: I,
[00:19:38] Will: But I think for lots of other folks that may be watching I don't know that people always realize that.
'cause again, If I go out and somebody asks me in an interview about my kids, they will talk about what a great dad I am to talk about my kids and how cool it is that my kids get to have a rockstar dad or whatever that is. And women almost a hundred percent of the time will get that same question of.
Do you ever feel bad about it or, you know, it's, just not even framed in the same way, which is just insulting. I'm sorry that that happens. For whatever that's worth,
[00:20:16] Aaron: Just to chime in on that, from my own experience, like Mikayla said, like I've gone on plenty of tours with Mikayla, where. I'm just being a dad, I'm driving and helping the loading, but I'm not playing. don't even have a pair of sticks with me.
You know? And
across the board, every town people are like, oh, man, that's so amazing. That's so great that you're out here. Like, You're doing
this. You're like, you're such a great dad. I'm like, this is my responsibility. Like This is a choice that we made together.
[00:20:37] Will: right. And
[00:20:37] Aaron: are my kids. I'm, I'm here.
[00:20:40] Will: insane. 'cause you know, and especially when the kids are little and you probably hear this, she'll go out. Somebody will say is like, oh, is Aaron babysitting the kids
[00:20:49] Michaela: Yeah,
[00:20:49] Will: Or they would say, is will babysitting? And Julia was always like, no, he is not babysitting.
[00:20:53] Aaron: yeah, yeah,
[00:20:55] Will: was like, no, I'm not babysitting. Like this is the job.
[00:20:58] Aaron: it is. Yeah.
[00:20:59] Will: This is exactly what it
[00:21:01] Aaron: Yep.
[00:21:02] Will: That's a teenage girl. You pay 12 bucks
[00:21:04] Aaron: Yeah. you know, but if you go out and your wife is at home with the kids, nobody's asking if your wife's babysitting.
[00:21:09] Will: They're
[00:21:09] Aaron: know what I mean?
you know, just like if I, if I was a front man and I was out playing solo and Mikayla was out, taking care of the kids, nobody would say anything to her.
[00:21:17] Will: No. just, oh, that's just what you do. Also, because I'm, I'm a ma, I'm the dad that's doing that. They're like,
[00:21:21] Aaron: wow, you're incredible. I'm like, I'm not, has any, I lost my temper last night. You know what I mean? Like, I lost my patience last night. 'cause I'm trying to put two kids asleep in a different hotel room every night.
I'm just
a dad.
[00:21:31] Will: wild to watch like the expectation of women and moms, you have to be a superhero and a therapist and a doctor and all of these things.
and then that's just the expectation. Anything less than a hundred percent. And it's, she's really slipping, you know, and us
[00:21:47] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:48] Will: just don't like the baby on fire.
And they're like, he is such a great dad, he really cares.
[00:21:54] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:21:54] Will: just going above and beyond,
[00:21:56] Michaela: Well, and the one, one, thing I always like, has anyone ever asked you will, when you're on tour, who's watching your kids?
[00:22:02] Will: never, not
[00:22:03] Michaela: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I,
I get asked every time like, so who's with your kids if you're, and on one hand, I appreciate The curiosity, because when I talk to other moms I do wanna know like, so what's your setup?
but it, is so deeply ingrained culturally that a mother is watching the children. So, of course we're gonna ask like, well, who's with your kids?
I've been asked that so many times, and I'm like, they're dad.
[00:22:32] Will: And I don't know how you feel, I'm not getting Mm-hmm. but to me that would feel also loaded with judgment in,
[00:22:40] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:40] Will: really thought about
[00:22:41] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:42] Will: You know, it's like, yeah, I've thought about even if they're not, you could, you could also be a single mom and have your kids responsibly with
[00:22:50] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:50] Will: there are myriad ways to do this, but it's just, I hate the. sort of loaded assumption that a woman just doesn't have her shit
[00:22:58] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:58] Will: it's just like, I don't know. She just dropped her kids off and went on tour,
[00:23:01] Michaela: Yeah. Yeah,
[00:23:03] Will: Crazy.
[00:23:04] Aaron: yeah.
[00:23:05] Michaela: Yeah. Well, That feels like a, natural segue I'd love to talk about you are an outspoken artist that you do share your political beliefs, your beliefs about humanity through your art and platforms. If I'm interpreting you correctly, would you, say that's correct?
[00:23:24] Will: I would uh, hard agree with that.
[00:23:26] Michaela: Yeah. Can you, Can you talk a little bit about that? Especially because, in today's world, in America, it's just increasingly so divisive that I. I've long been someone who has always shared my thoughts and feelings through my music on my platforms.
The accusation of like, you shouldn't talk about politics, is so wild to me because I'm like. Politics impacts every aspect of our life. was just driving my our daughter to school and was the road was paved and I was like, literally the construction that happens is driven by politics.
The fact that the government is shut down and we both have flights in this coming week to go be able to work, to play shows.
And now
we're like,
I don't know if we're gonna make those flights. And it.
Impacts every aspect of our life. Not to mention the deeper stuff like reproductive rights and civil rights and everything. So to me, it seems insane that artists are told. Don't talk about it. So I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about your experience, especially with the context of being a straight white man in Nashville.
[00:24:31] Will: Yeah. Well, I mean, To address the sort of art part of that first term artist, growing up I think artists can be a very highbrow, you know, oh no, I'm an artist. And I don't mean this in that way, but there's just no other way to say it. An artist isn't concerned about those things.
matter how high or lowbrow their art is. If you are worried about those things, then you're a business person and not an artist.
[00:24:59] Michaela: Hmm.
[00:25:00] Will: And that's not a right or a wrong, that's just two different conversations. And my accountant will tell you that I am not a business person.
Um, And they would be right. you know, You wanna strike a balance, but I can't imagine. Being an artist that doesn't do it, but I can't imagine being a person that doesn't do that. I feel like one of my favorite things about getting to do this that we do for a living is that it is a reflection of
What's going on in my head, what I'm thinking, where I am in my life. I mean, The records have always been that way, even when they're not political. Nobody says that, you shouldn't talk about love in your songs, or if you're going through a divorce, you shouldn't
[00:25:41] Aaron: talk about your divorce.
[00:25:42] Will: You know, It's like people want that in your art, but then it's like all of a sudden when it crosses into these other things, there's some people that go like, well, I don't want that. You don't, one, don't buy the record. That's a very easy choice. You're not being forced to participate.
It's also not an airport. You don't have to announce your departure. You can just not buy the records. it was never a hard decision for me to do those things. I, I did my first sort of, political recordings were did an EP the America ep. Where I was trying to mix those two things.
I was still signed to a major label at the time. I had made the sort of major label record and it had gone well enough. They were wanting to do another record and I gave them this political ep and it was great 'cause it was all, you know, it was a New York label. Atlantic Records. It was a big, rock and roll label.
And um, they were funny. undoubtedly Progressive at least by Southern standards for sure. you know, Politically would definitely be on the, left side of things as a company and as, individuals. Everybody that I worked with there they told me at the time, they said, look we agree with this.
We like it, we're just not in a place where we think this is a good idea for an artist to put out music like this. If this is what you want to do, you have our blessing, but you probably need to go and do something else. If you wanna stay here, make records, we'd love for you to make like another rock record.
And at the time, You know, it's, staring at this opportunity I've dreamed of since I was, 16 or 17 years old. seen the power of what a major label can do. I've had a little bit of success with it, and the money that stares you in the face at that point. It's substantial.
I mean, Especially for a dude that's. not coming from money. It's something that, the accountant would definitely say like, what if you took this? Maybe you hold onto your little political record
[00:27:40] Michaela: Hmm.
[00:27:40] Will: somewhere down the line. It just didn't feel right. And so I, left and put that record out and you know, it was cool ' 'cause it, it. It maintains all those relationships that I have with people there are still good. it created a path for me as an artist that enabled me. I don't think I would still be here making records I had done it the other way, because I think most likely I would've made another record that would've been.
Cool for me or successful for me, but the label would've said, this isn't successful. Then I'd have gotten dropped, and then I'd have had to figure out what I was gonna do and I would've compromised in a way that would've felt troublesome for probably the rest of my career.
that decision, once you've.
Kind of crossed that Rubicon. It's easy. The other times, I mean, anytime since then, I just make the records and, don't worry about it. My wife is cool about those kinds of, things. There was a record we did a few years ago and, there's a song on there called Nikki's a Republican now, and it just talks about how some of the progressive people that you grew up with, all of a sudden, they get a little to themselves and then all of a sudden they're now huge MAGA fans or whatever.
[00:28:48] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:48] Will: uh,
when that song came out, my wife was like, oh, so we're just saying it now. Like, There's no, there was no like, oh, you're just gonna say it like we're just gonna say it. I was like, yeah, we're just saying it. So, uh. I don't think every artist has to speak out.
if you're doing that because you're scared about your business I don't respect that decision a whole lot, you know? if you make a certain type of music and you're like. Look, politics is never gonna come into my music, but I will speak my mind politically. That's okay. not every band needs to be rage against the machine.
That would be fake also, I mean, what I don't wanna see is also some artist that's just trying to capitalize on being political. That's not interesting either. So I think that you have to do what you're into as an artist. But I think if you're not saying things because you're afraid of offending someone or afraid of making the money you need to make, that's not admire.
[00:29:47] Aaron: you know, The thing that gets me, and I, agree fully with everything you were just saying is 2004, that was like when the chicks now, were like getting canceled and all of that
right around that same time,
[00:29:56] Will: Yeah.
[00:29:56] Aaron: you know, and so everybody's.
Oh, don't put out those political songs. don't bring politics into art. And it's like, well, by censoring your art because you're afraid of political pushback, that's bringing politics into your art fully. you're fully admitting without saying it, probably without even knowing it, that politics affects everything here.
[00:30:12] Will: Yeah. of the artists that I really admire are artists that will those two things. and, you know, into current affairs. I don't feel like we're having political discussions anymore. I
[00:30:25] Michaela: Mm.
[00:30:26] Will: We are it's politics, but like. nobody's out here mad because we have differing opinions on tax policy.
[00:30:34] Michaela: Mm-hmm. Right.
[00:30:34] Will: talking about women's reproductive rights. We're talking about marriage equality, we're talking about healthcare. I mean, These are things that should just be sort of dinner table, of the road, human decency things.
We shouldn't be snatching people off the street.
[00:30:50] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:51] Will: With this Gestapo force and all these things like, we thought a whole world war about this. Like we've decided there's a right and a wrong here and my folks you know, they grew up in, in the south, in Nashville, in the fifties and sixties were at least moderately progressive.
they weren't out. Marching in the civil rights movement. I don't want to paint them in, something. They weren't, they also weren't dumping milkshakes on black kids at lunch counters. I mean, They were just sort of right in the middle
of things. But, know exactly where my folks stood in those moments.
And it's a bit of a conscious choice for me. Again, back to kids. I don't want my kids to look back in 30 years and be like, you know what? I just never knew what dad or what mom, you know, what, where they stood things that are really important. Again, we don't have to get into accounting issues with our teenage kids,
[00:31:46] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:47] Will: want.
My kids to know that we will fight to be on the right side of these things to make the world a better place for everyone and not just ourselves.
[00:31:57] Michaela: I was just on a bunch of flights this last week with our eight month old baby, and I was remarking on both. Ways how, you know, when I'm home and I'm just consuming social media and the news through that the world out there feels really scary. I notice my nervous system.
Starts to get really heightened and I start to get nervous about like, how do I talk to people and like I'm gonna like keep quiet in my daily life to not make things uncomfortable because everyone's like, a boiling pot. you could just set somebody off and being on these long flights with an eight month old.
Everyone just was so nice and wanted to talk to me, like,
and help me and hold my baby. the last flight I was with two people and the guy was in med school to be an obstetrician in the Alabama. And then the woman lived here in Nashville and is a nurse. And eventually we kind of started talking about where the, guy in med school was like, I do have concerns about being in, obstetrician in the south to not be able to provide the health services that
women
need access to. And that kind of opened the door. And then it was clear that the woman was very conservative. She told me she was a libertarian. But she's a nurse and she started talking about her stance on abortion and you know that it's murder and I sat there and I was like, I could just smile politely and nod along and not make this uncomfortable. And I was like, wearing a t-shirt that said, my body, my vote. And I was like, I definitely. Very much disagree and we like really discussed it.
We didn't
change each other's minds, but I was like very clear about where I stood and what I felt. And we even covered topics like Charlie Kirk I was like, horrifying, what happened? And I was like, listen, I went and listened to a lot of Charlie Kirk and he has some very harmful, heinously hateful rhetoric and beliefs and.
She was like well, yeah, I know but, all to say, we covered some crazy topics on opposite end of the spectrum. And I said, before we got off, I was like, I just wanna say that the powers that be want us to believe that what just happened here, like wasn't possible. And we just had a
really
cordial uh, respectful conversation.
And it's clear that we believe very different things there's no, hate between us right
now. my challenge is that I believe that vote has perpetuated great harm to a lot of people. So it's hard to navigate, but I think there's no way to change someone's vote if we can't have these really respectful, calm conversations.
And if I can't listen to her and hear her out. If I'm just automatically like, well, what you believe perpetuates hate, so therefore I'm not gonna talk to you. there will never be any progression. and the one thing that I think about artists wanting to share is that we have a superpower in communicating emotions, not just.
Policy change, but trying to connect and build empathy through music is what I hold so tightly to and why I think it's really important to try and connect the dots of like, oh, you're a fan of my music because my songs make you feel something while also that builds your empathy of why you should care about these people and see why, you want me to do well in life, but.
These policies are making it impossible for us to have health insurance. Like all those different things I think are important to talk about and share.
[00:35:28] Will: you mentioned that you were working on your psychology degree and my wife is a, therapist I feel sometimes we forget. mental health obviously, and the, work around it has obviously been around and talked about for a very long time.
not the same way we all talk about sports. Mental health does not occupy that space. sometimes. It's easy for those of us. And again, it's not right or wrong, it's just, but for those of us that are leaning more into those things, I think we forget that we're on the forefront of that in a lot of ways.
And as artists, we're a little bit of a gateway drug for people's wellness. I think that there are a ton of people that. The first time they're ever exposed to an idea. that can be little shit. There can be some country artist isn't saying anything political, but somehow they touch on an emotion that this guy that grows up in rural Alabama has just never even thought about.
And all of a sudden, know, that's this little nugget of. A bigger world or you all of a sudden think about you know, you drive from to Nashville to see your favorite band play, and all of a sudden you're exposed to something you've never been exposed to before. I don't think we always realize how much of that we.
Do offer people, and you know, and, and if, if that's what leads somebody into thinking outside of their little bubble, until they go and get a therapist and start doing the work on their own. if we've gotta sort of be the breadcrumbs that lead them to that, that's pretty cool. And I think those conversations, like you're saying uh, and that's even like you said, is a woman that's in the.
Healthcare world, that sounds like she has what I would consider a fairly small and backwards view of things,
[00:37:16] Michaela: but
[00:37:17] Will: She's obviously not getting all of the same information
[00:37:20] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:21] Will: And if you only get one bit of information, you surround yourself with people that only give you the same information back.
it's important, you know, I think that it's cool for us to be able to have those conversations. There are times where you have to shut a conversation down and go, I'm not in this.
But I think those little one-on-one moments like that they make a difference. The ripple effect is real.
[00:37:41] Michaela: Yeah. And we're not shouting at each other in all caps on,
Instagram. And like we ha could each other's tones of voice and we had built this rapport together. that's what I think we need more of. I also. love that you're married to a therapist. There's such a, thread of male singer songwriters who are married to therapists.
our episode that came out today is with Josh Radner, who's a singer, songwriter and actor, and
his wife is a therapist and I think you're friends with Bear from Need to Breathe.
[00:38:08] Will: Yeah.
[00:38:09] Michaela: he was a guest on this podcast as well, and his wife's a therapist,
[00:38:13] Will: See, so. she was doing that now. Yeah. And my, pal Dave Haas he came to Nashville and I did a bunch of records for him. His wife's a therapist. It, It's funny, you know, I feel like when my wife started in that work, 12 or 15 years ago, I would say, you know, my wife's a therapist.
And then I would have to explain to people, what does that mean?
[00:38:29] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:29] Will: therapy? It's like, no. And, you know, uh, I feel like six or eight years ago, it became a thing where people was like, oh yeah, I go to
[00:38:35] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:38:35] Will: and now everybody I've talked to is married to a therapist, which is great.
[00:38:38] Michaela: That's hilarious. Yeah. Dave was just on um,
[00:38:41] Aaron: couple episodes
ago.
[00:38:42] Will: nice.
[00:38:43] Aaron: you guys share a bass player? Is that right?
[00:38:45] Will: keyboard player.
[00:38:46] Aaron: Keyboard player. That's who it is.
And he mentioned talking about dividing and bringing together, he's, said that the keyboard player says that you're the thinking band.
And Dave's band is the fun band.
[00:38:54] Will: We're the music
[00:38:55] Aaron: That's what it is. Yeah.
[00:38:56] Will: music band. And they're the fun band. Yeah. We laugh 'cause they're just so Philly and they bust balls like crazy. And so they just rake mark over the coals. And one day when we were all driving in the van, we were like, gotta do something to get 'em back.
You need to refer to them as. You're the fun band. Refer to us as your music
[00:39:14] Michaela: Yeah.
[00:39:15] Will: And he was like, oh, this is good. And it totally, it grinded Dave's gears,
[00:39:20] Michaela: Yeah.
That's amazing.
Thank you so much. This has been really insightful. Mm-hmm. And um, really wonderful
and so glad to get to do it and really like, thank you guys for this. This stuff is, important for us to continue to talk about things 'cause this business is bigger than just the record and
[00:39:37] Aaron: it is,
[00:39:37] Will: and the show. If we're gonna continue to well at this, it's cool that y'all are doing this.
Thanks.
[00:39:41] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:39:42] Will: Not just talking to me, but for putting yourselves out there and
[00:39:45] Michaela: Yeah. Thank, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. We're, We're
[00:39:46] Aaron: strong believers in as the tide rises, so do all the ships. the more of these conversations we have, the more we realize nobody really knows exactly what they're doing or what's
next. So if we. all making this shit up as
So if we all share it, maybe there's something that somebody else said that'll resonate with you, and you're like, oh, that's how I can get around that. Well,
[00:40:01] Michaela: and also if I could be so dramatic, which might be totally justified, it's just gonna get crazier to be an artist
in today's world with AI and apps and all this stuff. The program I'm in for psychology is depth psychology of creativity. So it's
really specifically about how creativity is so vital to our knowing of ourselves.
I just think it's gonna be more important than ever to support each other and artists and keeping art such a vital part of humanity, whether it's a career or not.
[00:40:32] Aaron: But along those lines, we also have one final question we'd like to let, ask our guests before we go. And
it's,
[00:40:37] Will: read it.
[00:40:37] Aaron: you can choose your own adventure on it and it
can either be like something that somebody has said to you or that you've heard along your travels that still resonates with you and you know, is fuel in the tank.
Or conversely something you would tell 18-year-old will, that's just off on this as a career really.
[00:40:54] Will: well, I'll do both The first record that I did with Dave. We brought him to town and had put a band together and, we had Gary Talent playing bass from the E
[00:41:03] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:03] Will: and somebody was asking him during one of the lunch breaks, they were like, all right, Gary, what's your one piece of advice?
got all of this, all these miles and all this experience. And Gary said, I learned a long time ago in this business. Never take it personal, even if it is, and that one me, 'cause happens all the time. You know, I got, canned off of a record that I was gonna produce by a label that had canned me.
And like, I just continued to get screwed. And like, it, it feels pretty personal, but it was also like, I just can't be worried about that. Like, That one plays through in my head. Quite a bit. And then I think also from a therapy standpoint, years ago I had a therapist tell me that having a good life is really hard work.
And I wish that as a young artist, I and just a younger human I, I wish somebody had tried to explain that to me. In a way, impart that on the boys as often as I can. You know, None of this is easy. It also doesn't mean it's not worth it, work to do this for a living and to be, well.
Those would be my, two things.
[00:42:04] Aaron: Yeah. along the lines of what you were just saying is like, something that's, resonated with me is somebody talking about going to something like the music industry where you just hear over and over again it's hard. It's hard. And on days like when it's a grind and you're like, what?
take it personally it's, beating you down. You have no motivation. Like, What am I doing to remind yourself like this is the hard work. you
knew it was gonna be hard, this is what hard looks like, and you're like,
okay, well
cool. Here we are. Here we go.
[00:42:26] Will: Yeah and, and that's that moment, you know, I'm talking about that with my oldest quite often now. 'cause he's going through his first kind of, does the band break up? Does the band stay
[00:42:34] Aaron: Mm-hmm. like,
[00:42:34] Will: those are the moments, when the business or the show or whatever it is, the hardships, it just kicks you right in the nuts.
And it sucks. But like when you wake up in the morning, if you can't wait to do this shit again. Then you're doing the right thing. If there's a point though, where you're like, I don't wanna do this anymore. If you cannot do this anymore, would highly suggest doing something else. But the truth of the matter is, and he probably feels the same way.
Like I'm not Captain Rosie Cheeks about it. Like There's days where it's like, this
[00:43:03] Aaron: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:04] Will: is ridiculous, AI's fucking everything up. The world is on fire. it's like I come in here with a pen and a pad and I write something or start recording or working on something and I feel like I'm 15 again,
[00:43:16] Michaela: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:17] Will: my parents' bedroom, discovering rock and roll for the first time.
that's the closest thing to magic that I've I'll ever be a part of.
[00:43:24] Aaron: absolutely.
[00:43:25] Michaela: A hundred percent.
[00:43:26] Aaron: Well, Will thank you again for taking time this morning to sit
and chat with us. Yeah. yeah, likewise. Hope to see you
[00:43:32] Michaela: in person one of these days in town. Yeah.
[00:43:34] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:43:34] Will: great.
[00:43:34] Michaela: Thank you. All right, well
[00:43:35] Aaron: real appreciate it. Take care.
[00:43:37] Will: All right. See y'all.
[00:43:38] Aaron: See ya.